Suppressors on duty side arm

[AJBello]

Re: on duty side arm

MinorDamage -

I don't think it's the <span style="font-style: italic">trigger pull</span> itself people attack (on a DA / SA pistol). It's the fact that there are two different trigger pulls on the weapon. It sounds like you're suggesting to carry a Sig or HK "cocked and locked" to get over that argument...? I've never carried either in a duty role (which is what this whole discussion is about), but I don't think carrying either in that manner is recommended or common practice in LE. 1911, yes, absolutely, but not a Sig or HK. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. I do know the few guys at my department that carry Sigs always "decock" before reholstering.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lastly, if you wind up with a misfire, the Sig and HK gives you the opportunity to attempt to fire the round (light primer strike) again. The glock requires you to rack the slide and then attempt to fire again. My $.02 </div></div>

In my opinion that is poor tactics. If you get a misfire you need to tap-rack-go right now and quickly. Don't waste time pulling the trigger again, even if you have the ability. If you got one fail to fire chances are it's going to happen again, so get that round out and go to work. It shouldn't matter what pistol you have in your hand, all weapons "require" you to rack the slide and fire again when speaking in terms of solid tactics. IMO of course...

RE the Glock grip angle... I didn't find it particularly natural at first either, but after <span style="font-style: italic">training</span> with it I shoot it well, and quickly.

***Edit to add:
It seems like you're trying to make it apples to apples with the Sig / HK vs Glock thing. I don't think you really can. They're different systems. Don't try to think of them the same because talking about carrying a glock with the "striker down" and having to rack it before you fire doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[rgkeller]

Re: on duty side arm

The two time reigning IPSC World Champion in Production shoots a DA/SA pistol.

 

[J-Ham]

Re: on duty side arm

Now that's fucking interesting! Thank you for posting, rgkeller.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

Sigs cannot be carried safely with the hammer in the single action position because they don't have a safety.

HKs can.

 

[[email protected]]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sigs cannot be carried safely with the hammer in the single action position because they don't have a safety.

</div></div>

Except for the ones that do:
http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=151

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: on duty side arm

AJBello,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It seems like you're trying to make it apples to apples with the Sig / HK vs Glock thing. I don't think you really can. They're different systems. Don't try to think of them the same because talking about carrying a glock with the "striker down" and having to rack it before you fire doesn't make a lick of sense.</div></div>

First, I said I was attempting to make it apples to apples. No, it doesn't make a lick of sense to carry the glock striker down. All I was saying is that in some of the above posts people attempt to draw parallels between the "constant" glock pull and the difference between the DA and SA in the HK or Sig. If you want to make it fair and you assume you carry your glock striker cocked to the rear then that is how you assess the trigger pulls with the HK and Sig as well. When all three weapons are cocked, the HK and Sig will trump the glock's trigger pull every time.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you get a misfire you need to tap-rack-go right now and quickly. Don't waste time pulling the trigger again, even if you have the ability.</div></div>

I completely agree, just saying it is an option.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't think it's the trigger pull itself people attack (on a DA / SA pistol). It's the fact that there are two different trigger pulls on the weapon.</div></div>

We will have to agree to disagree. People take issue with the heaviness and length of pull for DA. Carry it cocked and locked and get down to an SA first shot.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've never carried either in a duty role (which is what this whole discussion is about), but I don't think carrying either in that manner is recommended or common practice in LE.</div></div>

Then carry the glock striker down. It is no easier to discharge an HK or Sig in Condition 1 than it is a glock. My USP has a thumb safety and decocker. I think the point is moot. I am by no means stating one system is better than the other, I just want people to get their facts straight about the actions and the condition of carry so they understand what they are giving up or gaining with either.

Josh

 

[[email protected]]

Re: on duty side arm

However, the Glock's reset wins for me, hands down when compared to the Sig or HK.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apollo11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, the Glock's reset wins for me, hands down when compared to the Sig or HK. </div></div>

Which is why I stated how subjective firearm function is. The OP needs to rent the lot of them and pick the one that best fits.

Josh

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apollo11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sigs cannot be carried safely with the hammer in the single action position because they don't have a safety.

</div></div>

Except for the ones that do:
http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=151 </div></div>

I should have added that there are single action Sigs, but they are rare.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Then carry the glock striker down. It is no easier to discharge an HK or Sig in Condition 1 than it is a glock. My USP has a thumb safety and decocker. I think the point is moot. I am by no means stating one system is better than the other, I just want people to get their facts straight about the actions and the condition of carry so they understand what they are giving up or gaining with either.
</div></div>

1. It is totally useless to carry a Glock striker down.

2. A DA/SA Sig does not have "Condition 1," nor does ANY Glock. Condition 1 is properly defined as: 1. Round chambered 2. hammer cocked and 3. safety engaged. A Glock is something more like "Condition 1.5" with the striker partially cocked and no safety. A normal DA/SA Sig can only be safely carried in "Condition 2" (hammer down on a live round, first shot DA, all subsequent shots SA. As stated before earlier in this thread, the DA/SA Sig cannot be safely carried in single action mode because it lacks any type of safety (it has a drop safety, but this does not prevent the firearm from firing if the trigger is pulled). The HK can be carried in this fashion because some variants have a safety that can be applied by pushing the lever up. Others have a decocker only, and most offer both.

I assume most departments will not allow the USP to be carried in condition 1; the post this week about the Glock 30 offered a link to the Austin, TX police department policy that not only prohibited such carry, it prohibited the carry of a USP that was even capable of being carried in that manner, necessitating the lever's conversion to decocker only, conversion to LEM or DAO, etc.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 1. It is totally useless to carry a Glock striker down.</div></div>

Yes, I already addressed that in my second post.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> No, it doesn't make a lick of sense to carry the glock striker down. </div></div>

The glock is indeed useless with striker down. I hope I do not have to state this again. Please read posts in their entirety before posting a reply. I just feel people make apples to oranges arguments when it is possible to make an apples to apples one. Call me crazy...

1. Carrying the HK with the hammer down amounts to the same as the glock with striker forward.
2. From that position you can fire the HK, you cannot fire the glock
3. That is the only time the HK has the "crappy" trigger pull
4. If a department carries the glock with the striker cocked then they should have no reason not to allow HK carry in condition 1. If they take exception to the thought of the two carries being equal they shouldn't be issuing weapons in the first place as they obviously have no clue about the differences. Everyone gets caught up in the "safe action" thing.
5. If both weapons are cocked, the HK beats the glock hands down on trigger pull.
6. When cocked, neither weapon is any less safe than the other. Period.

Lastly, I said in two of my posts that the OP needs to get out an rent them all so he can find the one that is right for him.

Josh

 

[benchmstr]

Re: on duty side arm

when i first got on patrol i used my H&K socom 45....the damn thing is a hog leg...it fot uncomfortable really fast riding in the car with it straped to me....for the past 4-5 years i have been using my operater with a TLR1.....if i went back to patrol i would still use it.

but if money is a issue....just get a glock like everyone else...everyone hates a glock till they shoot one..

bench

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: on duty side arm

bench,

The SOCOM is a huge weapon. I can see where you would change it up. And, yeah, I love my 1911 like nothing else. I personally recommend an XD over a glock, but I like that grip angle. I guess anyone can get used to any weapon, but if you are shelling out the dough get the one that feels best. Don't let a couple hundred dollar difference stop you.

Josh

 

[benchmstr]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bench,

The SOCOM is a huge weapon. I can see where you would change it up. And, yeah, I love my 1911 like nothing else. I personally recommend an XD over a glock, but I like that grip angle. I guess anyone can get used to any weapon, but if you are shelling out the dough get the one that feels best. Don't let a couple hundred dollar difference stop you.

Josh </div></div>
thats the truth..my regular usp 45 was uncomfortable too....i personally like the glock over the XD...but if someone is looking for a handgun and ask me what they should get i will recomend the XD before the glock everytime...i like glock better because they are like a barbie doll for men, every body make accessories for them...but if you are going to keep it stone stock..i would stay with the XD..

bench

 

[Vinroc_1]

Re: on duty side arm

Personally, I never fully liked the grip angle on glocks, but I do have a 19 and it it unquestionably reliable. My Dept's SOP limits us to carrying 9mm, and our duty gun is the M&P9. I LOVE that gun, accurate, reliable, and easy recoil. My duty gun, and my carry (M&P9 full, and compact) are both striker, no manual safety, mag disconnect (I know some guys hate it, but I happen to like it). I have also shot the M&P40, and it is fairly light on the recoil as well. If you havent shot it yet, and it's within your Dept's SOP, I would try and rent it, i think it is a great duty weapon

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. Carrying the HK with the hammer down amounts to the same as the glock with striker forward. </div></div>

Wrong. The HK can fire with the hammer down if the trigger is pulled. The Glock cannot even have a round chambered this way without disassembling the gun, and obviously cannot fire, regardless of whether the trigger is pulled. Since the HK is DESIGNED to be carried that way, and the Glock is not, they are not the same or analogous. But you already knew this, because you posted this next:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. From that position you can fire the HK, you cannot fire the glock</div></div>

Next we examine this gem:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. That is the only time the HK has the "crappy" trigger pull</div></div>

And this is a bunch of nonsense, too. The debate isn't about having a "crappy" trigger pull, which, while I agree with you, is subjective anyway. The debate is about having TWO DIFFERENT trigger pulls, which the HK has (double action and single action).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4. If a department carries the glock with the striker cocked then they should have no reason not to allow HK carry in condition 1. </div></div>

This is your opinion, which is not shared by many others who write these doctrines. Personally, I would not carry an HK in Condition 1 regardless. I carry 1911s and 2011s that way because they have a functional grip safety AND a manual thumb safety. I personally think that carrying a single action pistol equipped with only a thumb safety in condition 1 is unsafe.

Most law enforcement agencies take it a step further, prohibiting all single action pistols. Because I compete and occasionally carry a single action, I'd be a hypocrite if I agreed with them. That said, I won't carry a single action at all without a functional grip safety.

A Glock is not the same for several reasons. For one, it doesn't have any kind of trigger safety, so if the thumb safety is somehow swept off, the HK is nothing but a trigger pull away from discharge. It also has the hammer fully cocked. If the striker were to fall from its position in a Glock without the trigger being pulled somehow, the round in the chamber would not discharge, because in addition to the drop safety blocking it, it would not have sufficient momentum to fire the primer. The same is not true of the HK in single action mode, which, absent some malfunction, would fire if the hammer fell.

You're attempting to draw analogies between striker fired pistols and hammer fired ones that simply do not exist. A striker is not "cocked" in the traditional sense; it does not sit in a position that if it was "tripped" would result in firing. This is a false analogy as a result.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they take exception to the thought of the two carries being equal they shouldn't be issuing weapons in the first place as they obviously have no clue about the differences. Everyone gets caught up in the "safe action" thing.</div></div>

It is not the name "safe action," but a number of safety features, including a drop safety, a trigger safety, and a striker that is not sufficiently loaded to fire the firearm that have encouraged departments to make distinctions between the designs. I suspect that it's YOU who fails to recognize the very real and undeniable differences between the two designs.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5. If both weapons are cocked, the HK beats the glock hands down on trigger pull.</div></div>

The Glock cannot be "cocked" so this statement is false because it is a deductive statement with a false premise. If my sister had a dick, she'd be my brother, but my sister could not have a dick and be my sister, and therefore the statement is false regardless of what it concludes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6. When cocked, neither weapon is any less safe than the other. Period.</div></div>

This is false for the same reason as your point #5. The Glock cannot be "cocked," and the closest thing it ever gets to "cocked" is just before the trigger breaks when the striker is pulled back all the way and the spring is compressed. This can only happen when the trigger is pulled, the trigger safety disengaged, the drop safety is disengaged etc. When the HK is cocked, user input is required to apply the safety. If this is not done, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled. The single action trigger pull is also (likely) lighter than the Glock's trigger pull, even if the Glock has the 4.5 lb connector installed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lastly, I said in two of my posts that the OP needs to get out an rent them all so he can find the one that is right for him. </div></div>

That's your opinion. Mine is that DA/SA pistols are obsolete and that he shouldn't waste his time.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: on duty side arm

Downzero,

I understand you are not a big HK or DA/SA fan. That's fine. I'll stop using the word "cocked" for the glock, but I also understand that while the HK with the safety off is only a trigger pull away from discharge, so is the glock with the striker to the rear. Sure, you must disengage the safeties by pressing the trigger, but I can't see my HK discharging unless I am fully intentional with it. I guess if you're all hard up for striker fired pistols you can go that route. I had an XD which is a better gun than a glock IMHO. I realize the mechanisms are not the same, but as I stated in every post, you have to get the conditions of the weapons as close to the same as possible to accurately evaluate their individual merits. Now, I am not saying the military is the final authority, but I have carried an M9 in condition 1 many days. It has one safety and is DA/SA as well (not trying to insult you, maybe there are new people that aren't familiar). I heard of accidental discharges, but it wasn't because the gun decided to fire itself. If you carry a gun responsibly, you are going to mitigate 99% of error.

I shoot my HK well, I shot my XD well but, like many other people, had big issues with the glock when it came to ergonomics. I have nothing against the mechanism of the pistol and do believe it has its merits. If you have issue with "two trigger pulls" then either carry it condition 1 or get a different pistol. As for the DA/SA being obsolete and the glock being SO much safer...each gun will have problems in the hands of a moron. So yes, my HK is JUST as safe as a glock... Just think if he had a thumb safety or sense enough to know he chambered a round by allowing the slide to go into battery. OP, go rent some pistols.

'Dis is a glock foe'ty...Fitty Cent, Two short...

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Josh

 

[rgkeller]

Re: on duty side arm

A glock fired properly and at speed also has "two trigger pulls."

After firing, the reset occurs very quickly during the trigger's return. If immediate multiple shots are required, there is no reason to permit the trigger to return to the position of the first shot. This quick reset and subsequent very short trigger pull is what permits the glock pistolero to deliver fast and accurate fire in a continuous string.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: on duty side arm

We had an officer from another area that was carring a Smith 4006 and was showing how the mag safety worked. It was a good thing to becasue high speed there still had a round in the chamber as well. Just like 50 cent in the above post. I am anxious for the new Glock Gen 4 in .45ACP. So I can see one. I hear they are using a simular recoil guide rod system comprable to the H&K USP.Also I hear that they changed the grip design so that you can change out various grip sizes like on the XD or M&P.I dont know if the front strap of the grip or the rear so this should be intresting. I do like the H&K USP becasue thay can be carreid hammer back and safety on kinda like my 1911 that I carry off duty. When I went through HAZSWAT and was wearing a civillian MOPP Suit with all the extra golves it was a pain in the ass to shoot, I had to make sure that I pressed my finger as far forward against the trigger guard so that I did not shoot that damn thing while switching hands. Ya dont have that problem with the H&K. And thank goodness I changed out the trigger guard on my M-4 with a winter trigger guard.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: on duty side arm

Sorry if i was unclear I was using my issue Glock 21 during the HAZSWAT Course.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: on duty side arm

Give me a Gen3 in 40 S&W anyday. I have several teamates that like the RTF, but its a bit like sandpaper to me, and the Gen4 shoots about like the C models in my opinion, but the adjustable back strap is a nice feature.

What exactly is this nonsense I keep reading about carrying a Glock cocked. As for DA/SA, the idea of pulling the trigger during presentation to be quicker on the trigger is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That is a competition tactic that shouldn't even be mentioned around new shooters. As a LEO you should be pulling the trigger on target, not before. Keep in mind most Policemen fire their weapons once or twice a year, probably hadn't picked up a gun before the academy, and consider it a tool on the bat-belt. Is it right, hell no, but unfortuantely its the truth, and in the world of pull the trigger and go bang, you can't beat a Glock.

Police Departments hate vicarious liability, thus carrying a pistol in single is a no go unless it has a grip safety, and alot of departments have just flat out denied the 1911 as a carry option, and again new shooters shouldn't even pick up a 1911.

Glock is nationwide not because of the unit price, but because of the ease and cheapness of maintenance. When My Department went to the G22 in 1998, it was because it beat out the the opponets on maintenance price. I can completely strip my G22 with a paper clip, it doesn't need shit for lubrication, will run dirty and foul as the day is long, and after 10,000+ rounds it has never had a FTF or a FTE. As for the idiot DEA jack leg, he deserved what he got, in my Departments SOP we called that "Failure to follow rules from an authoritative source."

As stated above many times by various posters, training is king, and if you can't figure out how to operate a Glock in a safe manner (Considering you only need to pull the trigger) you shouldn't even attempt to pick up another pistol, because the students on the little yellow bus shouldn't have guns, not even a Red Ryder.

With that being said, H&K make a great weapon as does Sig, quite frankly if the Germans are known for engineering, the guy who developed Sig was OCD to the 10th degree. XD's and M&P are just a different twist on the Glock, but because so many people are going fruit for the M&P the XD's are dirt cheap right now. Suprised no one has brought up the new age Cougar 8000 disguised as an FNP, or the father on grip options the P99.

OP, go out and shoot, then shoot some more, then pick what you like. I have never thought someone was a wannabe or police groupie because they asked me serious question regarding a pistol or shooting. The ones that want to be tacticool and have every little gun show gadget are the ones you got to watch out for. Good Luck, and stay safe Elmer Fudd.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

Actually the XDs were cheaper about a year ago. I'm still waiting for them to come back down to $420 with 4 mags, so I can buy one.

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

Since my Chambana counter part and other Illinois bretheren are dominating this discussion, I figured I might weigh in.

Yes, I am a police officer.
Yes, have owned damn near every duty type sidearm possible with the exception of the M&P and XD

First, please forgive me if anything is repeated as I just kinda zoomed to the end once people started talking about carrying a Glock striker down on an empty chamber.....stupid.

That being said, one thing I would consider is what ammunition and what kind of gun the rest of your intended department is using. Would be nice to know if the worst happens and you need a mag for your Glock 22, your backup officer has one to spare. Also, not sure what the training policy is there, but here if you are running a .40, the dept provides the ammo.

I will also preface this next part by saying that I am from the Jeff Cooper school of thought on handguns. In that every trigger pull should be the same as the previous and next. Thus single action is best, then the DAO/striker, and last is the DA/SA. If I had the choice, I would do a 1911, but i'm used to that platform as an off-duty. If you aren't familiar with the concept, a 1911, is not a good choice.

And I don't know if this is an option, but I once had an HK Expert that could be put on Safe with the hammer back. I don't know if this is one of the configurations, but to me that would probably be the next most idea. I also know that HK will be introducing a striker fired P30 later this year to compete with Glock and the rest.

And as much as I say I hate the Glock, I can't dismiss it. It's ugly as a mud fence, but it works. Accuracy is descent, and drawing and firing is very fast. Plus, Glocks were the only thing that never hiccuped in 12 weeks at the academey with no cleaning. Sigs were probably the next best. I look at the Glock much like a Crown Vic squad car.... Would I buy one for myself for fun? NO! Is it good enough to get the job done in the field? YES!

I used to be more of a fan of the Sigs than I am now. They are not what they were a few years ago. Plus you have the whole DA/SA to look at. If I had to go with Sig, I'd look at DAO in .40, or find a good 220.

Now, a lot of people have a huge hard on for the M&P and XD. I got a chance to try the M&P. Probably the shittiest trigger I've ever used on a pistol

The XD. I know some guys love this thing. I have no idea why. I can't say that it beats any other pistol in any category with the exception of mag capacity....which means dick. I guess I just can't get over how horrid and cheap it looks to me.

If you're lucky, go to an LE outfitter and see if they will let you handle some of the common duty models. I'm sure you will be able to narrow a few of your options there. Next I would consider your caliber. DO NOT LET MAG CAPACITY DICTATE YOUR FINAL CHOICE. Better to have 8 rounds that can hit than 16 that won't.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: on duty side arm

Well said PointBlank, I especially like the analogy of the Crown Vic. That is dead nuts on. I will add that the whole premis behind Departments going to a single style pistol like the G22 and it variants are not only for training issues, but for practical as well. Everyone is trained on the same firearm, the mags are interchangeable, and everyone is carrying the same caliber ammunition.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know if this is an option, but I once had an HK Expert that could be put on Safe with the hammer back. I don't know if this is one of the configurations, but to me that would probably be the next most idea.
</div></div>

Yes, it is still a configuration. It is what I have on my USPc 9. From there, all pulls are the same...short action.

Josh

 

[Lefty06]

Re: on duty side arm

It comes down to carry what you can use and feels good if you can try a number of guns out first. i cary a Beretta96 and have for the pase 8 years but when i change it will be to a M&P40 my friend got one and it rocks. I personaly dont like the feel of the glock in my hand

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deputy5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It comes down to carry what you can use and feels good if you can try a number of guns out first. i cary a Beretta96 and have for the pase 8 years but when i change it will be to a M&P40 my friend got one and it rocks. I personaly dont like the feel of the glock in my hand </div></div>

And honestly, this is really what it all comes down to. Carry what you know. Carry what you've trained with. Carry what you're confident with. No one can tell you what is right for you. You've got to get out and figure that one for yourself.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well said PointBlank, I especially like the analogy of the Crown Vic. That is dead nuts on. I will add that the whole premis behind Departments going to a single style pistol like the G22 and it variants are not only for training issues, but for practical as well. Everyone is trained on the same firearm, the mags are interchangeable, and everyone is carrying the same caliber ammunition. </div></div>

I think those are all good things, but ergonomics is more important, and suffers. The solution is to train more with long guns, that are far more effective.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: on duty side arm

Unfortunately in the larger picture, ergonomics does suffer, but ergonomics is not a high priority for Departments looking at new pistols.

My Department looked at several factors back in 1998; benefits of the ballistics, ease of maintenance, time of conversion and trainability, and total cost of after purchase needs of the department. My department is 1700 officers, take into affect the time allotted for officer training, armorer training, continuing education, replacement parts, and the individual unit price of the weapon and that number gets pretty high very quickly. Now as my department went, the final two contenders were Glock and S&W Sigma, thank god Glock won out, but the reason we went to Glock was because they could cut the allotted training from 5 days to 3 which made it very cost affective. No pistol will fit everyones hands, thats why Hogue does so well.

In Law Enforcement K.I.S.S. is key, and considering that Firearms Instructors can be trained as on-site armorers with a stock of replacement parts at their disposal, those parts are not expensive, are easily accessible,aren't going to be discontinued anytime soon, and the pistols themselves are easily maintained by the individual officer, its a no brainer why Glock won the Law Enforcement commuity over so easily. Me personally, speacking as a Firearms Instructor/ Glock Armorer, there is not another pistol on the market that meets or even comes close to those criteria with cost/ benefit. Let alone the fact that the Glock's business tennants have been pretty damn consistant over the last 11 years since we changed from the 92FS to the G22. I really like H&K and Sig, but they can't even come close to the cost/benefit. Maybe S&W learned its lesson after all the hubbub with Sigma, and they can hit the market strong with the M&P, we'll see.

As I agree with you regarding long gun training, that is long over due. Take a look at how many Departments would not issue anything other than a shotgun for how many years, LAPD. It took two heavily armed bank robbers to open peoples eyes, and it still took another 15 years before departments started taking heed. The main reason, in my humble opinion, is that we are not ment to be para-military because that just plain scares people. Same reason why they don't allow patrolmen to where more comfortable uniforms like BDU's. We don't want to give the impression that we are like the military, let alone we wear uniforms, have a rank structure, and follow the chain of command. I hate this warm fuzzy crap, its like hearts and minds, fuck it, you will like what I give you damnit and be god damn appreciative.

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well said PointBlank, I especially like the analogy of the Crown Vic. That is dead nuts on. I will add that the whole premis behind Departments going to a single style pistol like the G22 and it variants are not only for training issues, but for practical as well. Everyone is trained on the same firearm, the mags are interchangeable, and everyone is carrying the same caliber ammunition. </div></div>

I think those are all good things, but ergonomics is more important, and suffers. The solution is to train more with long guns, that are far more effective. </div></div>

Downzero, with all due respect you are totally off the mark with that last statement. An officers pistol is ALWAYS with you, and you should be able to count on it and use it and not be reliant on something that is locked in your car several yards away. Your rifle to you as a soldier is the equivalent to a police officer's pistol. A rifle to an officer is more like air support a solider....it would be great to have it every time you need it, but usually it's not available.

Take what just happened in Alabama, minutes ago. That is a case where you know you are going to deploy a long gun...no question. But think about the recent ambush attacks on police in the last year. Those officers have no clue as to what was about to happen...and that is the grim reality of many officer involved shootings.

And what is all this shit about "ergonomics"??? Ergonomics is just a marketing ploy for people who know dick about handguns. I will give you that it is necessary in long guns....when your face is resting on the damn thing. Think about it, if something is "ergonomic", it's designed to fit the worker. Show me the department where everyone's hand size and strength is the same. And don't give me this garbage about making it "more comfortable for the shooter". Does it point well, and will it stay aligned in your hand while firing. The fucking Nintendo Duck Hunt Zapper designers had enough sense to know this when they copied a Luger. Why is this such a fucking mystery?

Sorry, Downzero but you pushed 2 of my "go" buttons at once

Rant off, PB out.

 

[M25BeastShooter]

Re: on duty side arm

We are authorized to carry Sigs, Glocks, HK's, and S&W wheel guns. The calibers can be 9mm, .40 S&W, 45 ACP of 38Spl. I carry the Sig as its all undercover accept during Raids then its full tact gear. Cause of this I favor the long double action of the Sig. If you keep up aon the Police AD's you see the majority are with Glocks. Objects get caught in the trigger, officers improperly holstering, dropping waepons and grabbing the it accidently firing the pistol. The Sig's long DA trigger gives me a little more confidence.

 

[Hatchie]

Re: on duty side arm

I started Law Enforcement in 1990. Carried a Glock 9mm because we had to buy our own; the price was right and it seemed idiot proof (very important for me).
I carried that for 2 years then made selection for our full time SWAT team. They all carried Sig P-220 45's so I got a Sig. It was a fluke that I got such a great Sig. The slide has BROWNING on it. Apparently it was manufactured in 1974 and imported by Browning. It's got the European (butt) mag release. Very comforting when you're crawling with it in a drop holster and you still got a mag in when you get where you're going. It's got a great trigger and it really hurt my feelings when the department joined the 20th century and bought us all H&K 40's.
The H&K did everything as advertised but you had to get a running start at the first trigger pull. There were some major customer service issues with HK so we then went to Glock 40's.
The Glocks are adequate pistols. They point pretty much where you're looking, they go off every time you pull the trigger and from a fire arms instructor stand point, you can teach most any recruit to shoot one. You always have to take into account your lowest common denominator.
I don't have any experience with the other pistols, but everyone I know that has one, really likes them.
If I had a choice, I'd still be carrying my Sig. It's locked up now because when I shoot, I always shoot one of my Glocks. That's what I have to carry, so that's what I shoot and train with.
Muscle memory and busted caps...that's pretty much what it boils down to. Find something you like and get to know it.
Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And what is all this shit about "ergonomics"??? Ergonomics is just a marketing ploy for people who know dick about handguns. I will give you that it is necessary in long guns....when your face is resting on the damn thing. Think about it, if something is "ergonomic", it's designed to fit the worker. Show me the department where everyone's hand size and strength is the same. And don't give me this garbage about making it "more comfortable for the shooter". Does it point well, and will it stay aligned in your hand while firing. The fucking Nintendo Duck Hunt Zapper designers had enough sense to know this when they copied a Luger. Why is this such a fucking mystery?

Sorry, Downzero but you pushed 2 of my "go" buttons at once

Rant off, PB out. </div></div>

Sorry man, but you're just totally off the mark with that one. If the shooter cannot get a proper grip on a handgun, the sights will not come back down to the point of aim after the recoil event, resulting more fighting to get a proper sight picture and slower follow up shots.

I choose guns that sit low in my hand, that I can get a proper grip on, etc.

Your subjective judgment about how effective one can be with a pistol might seem great, but the timer doesn't lie. I guarantee you that if I were to time you shooting a pistol with a lower bore axis, better trigger, and one that fit your hand better, you would be able to shoot faster and more accurately than with another pistol that lacked these features. This is what handgun ergonomics is all about.

Ergonomics is not a marketing ploy at all. I guarantee you that the timer would not lie, especially with high velocity self defense type ammo. The strength of one's grip is absolutely critical to fast follow up shots.

I am not a personal fan of the Glock but I do carry one as a CCW because it offers a package of features that I like as far as size, firepower, weight, etc. If I were a police officer, and I couldn't carry any type of single action, I'd probably choose the M&P, because I think it has the best fit for most hands, a nicer trigger than the Glock, etc.

I think there is some truth to wanting all officers on the same department to carry the same gun for mag interchangeability. I think that if only one gun is going to be chosen, it absolutely must have interchangeable grips so that the shooters can fit the gun to themselves. Otherwise I'd rather see officers have a choice as to what fits their hand rather than being dictated from above.

I also think that from the armorer's perspective, cost of maintenance, etc., it is good to limit the number of pistols on a department, if practical. I'm not sure how much departments spend maintaining guns but it can't be that significant because most cops don't shoot that much. The plastic guns are cheap enough that expecting an individual cop to have 2 or even 3 duty guns is not really that big a deal. A pair of M&Ps or Glocks costs less than a decent 1911 anyway.

The Chicago Police Department has over 14,000 police officers and over 30 firearms allowed on its list of duty guns. The Glock is very popular, especially the Glock 17, as is the Beretta 92, M&P, Springfield XD, Sig P226/228/229, etc. Maybe they're making a mistake allowing their officers to carry so many different pistols, but it is happening.

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sorry man, but you're just totally off the mark with that one. If the shooter cannot get a proper grip on a handgun, the sights will not come back down to the point of aim after the recoil event, resulting more fighting to get a proper sight picture and slower follow up shots.

I choose guns that sit low in my hand, that I can get a proper grip on, etc.

Your subjective judgment about how effective one can be with a pistol might seem great, but the timer doesn't lie. I guarantee you that if I were to time you shooting a pistol with a lower bore axis, better trigger, and one that fit your hand better, you would be able to shoot faster and more accurately than with another pistol that lacked these features. This is what handgun ergonomics is all about.

Ergonomics is not a marketing ploy at all. I guarantee you that the timer would not lie, especially with high velocity self defense type ammo. The strength of one's grip is absolutely critical to fast follow up shots.

I am not a personal fan of the Glock but I do carry one as a CCW because it offers a package of features that I like as far as size, firepower, weight, etc. If I were a police officer, and I couldn't carry any type of single action, I'd probably choose the M&P, because I think it has the best fit for most hands, a nicer trigger than the Glock, etc.

I think there is some truth to wanting all officers on the same department to carry the same gun for mag interchangeability. I think that if only one gun is going to be chosen, it absolutely must have interchangeable grips so that the shooters can fit the gun to themselves. Otherwise I'd rather see officers have a choice as to what fits their hand rather than being dictated from above.

I also think that from the armorer's perspective, cost of maintenance, etc., it is good to limit the number of pistols on a department, if practical. I'm not sure how much departments spend maintaining guns but it can't be that significant because most cops don't shoot that much. The plastic guns are cheap enough that expecting an individual cop to have 2 or even 3 duty guns is not really that big a deal. A pair of M&Ps or Glocks costs less than a decent 1911 anyway.

The Chicago Police Department has over 14,000 police officers and over 30 firearms allowed on its list of duty guns. The Glock is very popular, especially the Glock 17, as is the Beretta 92, M&P, Springfield XD, Sig P226/228/229, etc. Maybe they're making a mistake allowing their officers to carry so many different pistols, but it is happening. </div></div>

Downzero, I don't give a fuck about timers. The only case in which a timer is an issue to me is on my team's qual course...and even then, it's not much of a concern.

You are confusing shooting and fighting. If you want to talk timers and x-ring hits, go play with the boys running the Swiss cheese 1911's.

I'm talking about an officer who needs a reliable, simple and reasonably accurate that can hit a moving center mass while he himself is either moving or in some uncomfortable position behind cover.

I will agree that if you take some random jackoff, and gave him a series of pistols, your description would most likely yield the best results. So break out the calipers.

However, those results would pale in comparison to and experienced shooter. Why?... because he has mastered the fundamentals. Curious how so many experienced shooters choose the 1911 when so many "ergonomic" bore line plasti-pistols with 15+ round capacity exist.

And if you are going to call me out on something, have the courtesy of grasping my point. I will further clarify:
Those new guns touting ergonomics are lying to themselves. Those that praise Glock's grip angle should be thanking Luger. And damn near every one else can thank the 1911. And this craze about "interchangable back-straps". Big deal.....my 1911 can do that, change width, length, texture. There have been few innovations in "ergonomics" in pistols in over a century. And the reason I quote "ergonomics" is that based on the definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ergonomics
We should be taking casts of everyone's hand. To be ergonomic, a truly custom gun. Not this one-size fits all, or the S, M, L (interchangable back strap shit. I guess I just see a good gun like a tailored Armani suit and not a pack of Hanes T-shirts to be picked off the rack.



And finally:
Downzero, you claim Champaign, IL. You also state above you are not a police officer. "I am not a personal fan of the Glock but I do carry one as a CCW because it offers a package of features that I like as far as size, firepower, weight, etc. If I were a police officer..." How is it that you have a Glock for CCW? You better not be doing it in this state, or we might be having a nice long chat in person.

 

[acespeedy]

Re: on duty side arm

I really like Glocks. They are inexpensive, combat accurate, and reliable. There is also a huge selection of holsters available for duty, concealed carry, and competition. My suggestion for you is to try out several pistols, perhaps some of your friends have some you can try. If not you can go out to a range that rents them out and see which one works out best for you.

Whichever pistol you choose, take the time to become proficient with it. Most LE departments training programs are limited, and with it you get a little bit of inbreeding in their program. Take some time and set aside some money for some additional training. Spend four hundred dollars on a LE Glock and take that extra six hundred dollars you saved by not purchasing that Kimber (nothing against Kimber just used as a reference for price comparison), and attend a good shooting school. Get yourself a good level I or II holster, and once you get your kit set up get out and shoot an IDPA or USPSA match. Leave your ego at home and just go out there and have fun. I see a lot of LE type shooters or even first time shooters, go out, shoot a match, get beat by an eighty-year-old man with a cane and never come back out and shoot. If you learn anything it will at least test out your gear placement choices.

I am a firm believer in training with a timer. Accuracy always comes first because we are ultimately responsible for every round that leaves the barrel, and once it leaves the barrel you can’t bring it back. It’s funny to be in a training environment and watch someone shoot a drill without the timer, and the minute it comes out their shot placement goes to s..t, yeah you get it. It’s artificial stress that you are introducing into your body/mind so that you can train your body to manage recoil and reacquire your sights faster to provide quicker follow up shots. Don’t confuse competition with training. Competition will improve your Qualification score and if anything get your speed up.

Goodluck,
Johnny
KYFFOTFT

Pointblank4445 is there a law against carrying Glocks with a CCW in IL? I know in Texas if you qualify with a revolver during the CHL class you are only allowed to carry a revolver, but if you use a Semi-auto you can carry either a revolver or semi-auto.

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: acespeedy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Pointblank4445 is there a law against carrying Glocks with a CCW in IL? I know in Texas if you qualify with a revolver during the CHL class you are only allowed to carry a revolver, but if you use a Semi-auto you can carry either a revolver or semi-auto.
</div></div>

Nope, Illinois is one of the few, the proud with absolutely no CCW for civilians...Glock, revolver, or otherwise. So if he's not LE and carrying in IL.....
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=072000050K24-1.6

Plus if he is a student, it's a bigger no no on a campus.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

I love how the discussion goes to ad hominem attacks as soon as I suggest an empirical test of pistol ergonomics. Nothing quite like some asshole claiming he's going to give me a "long talk" for my choice of carry weapons.

Fortunately I have just 3 months left in this state and I can choose to never return. It must be completely full of assholes.

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

I just have a problem with people (especially those who have never worn a badge) giving officers, would be officers, or even wannabe officers bad advice.

Turn the tables, Downzero. Would you not jump my ass if I gave some kid about to deploy to Afghanistan some incoherent rambling I read on the internet? I would hope so. But I make it a point not to get involved in discussions on military combat as I have no experience in it.

I don't give a fuck what you carry, just don't carry it here.

 

[J-Ham]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nope, Illinois is one of the few, the proud with absolutely no CCW for civilians</div></div>
Pointblank, why do you say one of the few and proud? I get the few part, but I'm certainly not proud to live in the state with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country. But, like Downzero, I'm on my way out - Texas here I come.

 

[frog5215]

Re: on duty side arm

Can we turn the testosterone storm down long enough to 'splain how a Glock with a round chambered can have an uncocked striker? Ruling out a dud round, of course.
My understanding is that a loaded Glock has a partially cocked striker that is drawn back further and released by pulling the trigger to the rear.
I strongly feel you can become proficient with anything given sufficient training.

Anybody know anything about the Catholic/Protestant wars of the what? 1400s, or the Sunni/ Shia conflict of the last 700 years?

 

[J-Ham]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody know anything about the Catholic/Protestant wars of the what? 1400s, or the Sunni/ Shia conflict of the last 700 years?</div></div>
Frog, that's ridiculous. I'm right, everyone else is wrong

.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frog5215</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can we turn the testosterone storm down long enough to 'splain how a Glock with a round chambered can have an uncocked striker? Ruling out a dud round, of course.
My understanding is that a loaded Glock has a partially cocked striker that is drawn back further and released by pulling the trigger to the rear.
I strongly feel you can become proficient with anything given sufficient training.

Anybody know anything about the Catholic/Protestant wars of the what? 1400s, or the Sunni/ Shia conflict of the last 700 years? </div></div>

No, there is no partially cocked stricker. They have a firing pin spring that is under light tension.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just have a problem with people (especially those who have never worn a badge) giving officers, would be officers, or even wannabe officers bad advice.

Turn the tables, Downzero. Would you not jump my ass if I gave some kid about to deploy to Afghanistan some incoherent rambling I read on the internet? I would hope so. But I make it a point not to get involved in discussions on military combat as I have no experience in it.

I don't give a fuck what you carry, just don't carry it here. </div></div>

I don't see why you have a problem with non-LEOs talking about engineering principles (ergonomics) nor handgun skills. Let's face it. The best shooters aren't cops. There really are some amazing LEO shooters (in fact, I've met one who trains our air marshalls that is, by some measures, the best handgun shooter in the world), but by and large, cops aren't gun people and aren't the best shooters. As you pointed out, what is in their holster bears more resemblance to some politician's decision than what fits the officer best.

I wouldn't jump on your ass for having any kind of conversation. First of all, that's the entire point of a forum--to discuss issues. Secondly, regardless of whether you have first-hand experience of any topic, you may have relevant experience or knowledge that could prove helpful. Perhaps you have an AR-15, or keep one in your car when on duty. Surely you could give maintenance advice to a new private, or show him how to zero his rifle. There are some things that are objectively similar about the AR-15 in your police car and the M16 or M4 our troops are carrying. For me to suggest that you couldn't give advice on a such a topic because you'd never served in the military would be foolish. Likewise for suggesting that a shooter cannot give shooting/gun advice because the shooter has never stood behind a badge and done the same.

If you didn't give a fuck what I carried, you wouldn't have brought it up. You're not the first to do it, either, and not the first to fail to realize how close Champaign is to a state line where CCW is welcomed and encouraged.

My only suggestion is before you tell someone "I don't give a fuck what you carry, just don't carry it here," that you do the same. Since you seem to have some sort of problem with the rest of us being armed, I suggest that you go through life defenseless as well, since apparently the sheep don't shouldn't be able to defend themselves.

That's not to say that I blame you for the shitty laws here, but if you agree with them, that's an entirely different discussion.

 

[Guest]

Re: on duty side arm

J-Ham, it's called sarcasm, buddy

And Downzero, please show exactly me where I state I am against the theory of CCW. Regardless of my feelings I must enforce state of IL law. I would love nothing more than for responsible citizens to carry responsibly.

If you are going to argue with me, please have the courtesy of actually reading my posts before putting words in my mouth.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J-Ham, it's called sarcasm, buddy

And Downzero, please show exactly me where I state I am against the theory of CCW. Regardless of my feelings I must enforce state of IL law. I would love nothing more than for responsible citizens to carry responsibly.

If you are going to argue with me, please have the courtesy of actually reading my posts before putting words in my mouth. </div></div>

Well, the next time you see someone jay walking or hear about someone fornicating, I hope you don't use your discretion there, as both of those things are prohibited by Illinois statute. An arrest would be in order.

 

[J-Ham]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J-Ham, it's called sarcasm, buddy

</div></div>
My bad. I know it's hard to type is a sarcastic manner.

 

[Hatchie]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J-Ham, it's called sarcasm, buddy

</div></div>
My bad. I know it's hard to type is a sarcastic manner. </div></div>
I think we could use a sarcasim icon.
Anyone notice that the OP asked us what time it was and we told him how a watch is made?
Trigger time....find something you like and get some.

 

[Downzero]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hatchie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Trigger time....find something you like and get some. </div></div>

Winner!

 

[J-Ham]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hatchie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we could use a sarcasim icon.
Anyone notice that the OP asked us what time it was and we told him how a watch is made?
Trigger time....find something you like and get some.</div></div>
With as many sarcastic bastards as the Hide has, I think you are right. You are also correct in your assessment that now the OP knows how to build a watch.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: on duty side arm

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hatchie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Trigger time....find something you like and get some. </div></div>

Winner!</div></div>

Ding..ding..ding!