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Photos One hell of a boat tail.
- Thread starter ptaylor
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Re: One hell of a boat tail.
I'd love to see result targets as to accuracy, distance and stability. Very neat stuff that is for sure.
I'd love to see result targets as to accuracy, distance and stability. Very neat stuff that is for sure.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
i can see an advantage on an animal or human but for a hard target not really. I haven't loaded any that way in mine yet. How is the accuracy? you going to silencer shoot? I am currently loading for that trip right now.
i can see an advantage on an animal or human but for a hard target not really. I haven't loaded any that way in mine yet. How is the accuracy? you going to silencer shoot? I am currently loading for that trip right now.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
The case is a 500ar. It's based off the 416 rigby shortened and blown out. It's designed to mimic the performance of the 500NE in a standard long action. The rifle started life as a ruger 7mm mag.
The chamber is throated long to take the APIT loaded point forward and I can push them up to 2300fps but run most loaded at 2000. The AP tip will penetrate 4" into a solid 6'x6' block of concrete while blowing pieces of crete 30 feet in the air. Once the AP lodges itself the tracer continues to burn for several seconds its amazing to watch. They are a hoot to shoot but I can't feed them from the mag.
In the quest for cheap blasting .510 bullets (<0.40 cents/bullet) I thought I would flip them and see how the worked. It takes a lot of tip damage to light of the incendiary so I'm thinking these should be wicked as long as they don't blow in my barrel. The barrel is a 10 twist so it will be interesting to see how they do out to 100 and beyond. The use is simple: pigs, concrete, engine blocks, mesquite trees, deer, etc.
The case is a 500ar. It's based off the 416 rigby shortened and blown out. It's designed to mimic the performance of the 500NE in a standard long action. The rifle started life as a ruger 7mm mag.
The chamber is throated long to take the APIT loaded point forward and I can push them up to 2300fps but run most loaded at 2000. The AP tip will penetrate 4" into a solid 6'x6' block of concrete while blowing pieces of crete 30 feet in the air. Once the AP lodges itself the tracer continues to burn for several seconds its amazing to watch. They are a hoot to shoot but I can't feed them from the mag.
In the quest for cheap blasting .510 bullets (<0.40 cents/bullet) I thought I would flip them and see how the worked. It takes a lot of tip damage to light of the incendiary so I'm thinking these should be wicked as long as they don't blow in my barrel. The barrel is a 10 twist so it will be interesting to see how they do out to 100 and beyond. The use is simple: pigs, concrete, engine blocks, mesquite trees, deer, etc.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
IIRC there was an old guy named Elmer(forgot his last name) who would do this with his bullets as they had no reactive bullets at the time. Pretty sure it worked fine for him.
Are you doing any subsonic shooting with these?
IIRC there was an old guy named Elmer(forgot his last name) who would do this with his bullets as they had no reactive bullets at the time. Pretty sure it worked fine for him.
Are you doing any subsonic shooting with these?
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
They may start to tumble at longer range as the center of gravity is toward the rear which is now the front and the very large meplat will have huge drag assisting the ogive which is now the base to overtake the front. However at short range it may work ok if the twist rate is right.
They may start to tumble at longer range as the center of gravity is toward the rear which is now the front and the very large meplat will have huge drag assisting the ogive which is now the base to overtake the front. However at short range it may work ok if the twist rate is right.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
Just thought I would mention incendiary tracers ignite back end (load normally) by propellent ignition. The Incendiary formula is ignited by energy transfer from striking a hard target at velocity.
You may have got away with it so far but sooner or later you are very likely to get a inbore detonation of the incendiary by the pressure rise on the bullet ogive/nose.
I have seen plenty of normal bullets loaded backwards but in this instant you are taking a big chance.
Just thought I would mention incendiary tracers ignite back end (load normally) by propellent ignition. The Incendiary formula is ignited by energy transfer from striking a hard target at velocity.
You may have got away with it so far but sooner or later you are very likely to get a inbore detonation of the incendiary by the pressure rise on the bullet ogive/nose.
I have seen plenty of normal bullets loaded backwards but in this instant you are taking a big chance.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
It takes a tremendous amount of force to set of the incendiary. The incendiary is lit by the friction generated as the AP part of the projectile begins to disrupt forward as the bullet strikes a hard object. Stated another way, for the incendiary to ignite, the jacket of the bullet must strike an object hard enough to begin to displace the AP inside of it. For example, if you shoot a 55 gallon drum it punches through the outer drum wall and flash-bangs inside the drum, then the penetrator continues on out the other side into the next county. I've shot these through mesquite trees and 250 lb pigs and they don't go off until striking something hard on the far side. I'll fire these 3 off and see how they do and then probably switch to just AP, no "I". You are right though, why risk it. It's so dry here I certainly don't want them to trace.
I've thought about doing subs with a custom can but I've got so many other logs on the fire. Waiting on my form 1 for my SBR 300 black/whisper, and have a form 4 pending on another 9mm can. Maybe some day.
It takes a tremendous amount of force to set of the incendiary. The incendiary is lit by the friction generated as the AP part of the projectile begins to disrupt forward as the bullet strikes a hard object. Stated another way, for the incendiary to ignite, the jacket of the bullet must strike an object hard enough to begin to displace the AP inside of it. For example, if you shoot a 55 gallon drum it punches through the outer drum wall and flash-bangs inside the drum, then the penetrator continues on out the other side into the next county. I've shot these through mesquite trees and 250 lb pigs and they don't go off until striking something hard on the far side. I'll fire these 3 off and see how they do and then probably switch to just AP, no "I". You are right though, why risk it. It's so dry here I certainly don't want them to trace.
I've thought about doing subs with a custom can but I've got so many other logs on the fire. Waiting on my form 1 for my SBR 300 black/whisper, and have a form 4 pending on another 9mm can. Maybe some day.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
I have to agree with Hummer! I would not squezze the trigger on one of those loads. If you do not want them to trace just put a dab of hot glue into the end of the cup.
It is not worth the risk. A in bore detonation of a APIT will make for a bad day and destroy your rifle.
Terry
I have to agree with Hummer! I would not squezze the trigger on one of those loads. If you do not want them to trace just put a dab of hot glue into the end of the cup.
It is not worth the risk. A in bore detonation of a APIT will make for a bad day and destroy your rifle.
Terry
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
I've read about loading bullets backwards in WW1 to pierce armour plate (either counter sniper operations to pierce the old "sniper plates" or against early armoured vehicles).
Would be interested to know what would you be using these for?
I've read about loading bullets backwards in WW1 to pierce armour plate (either counter sniper operations to pierce the old "sniper plates" or against early armoured vehicles).
Would be interested to know what would you be using these for?
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
When I was working for the Army Small Cal Lab I was in charge of setting up a demo for Marine Corps at Quantico and I went down early to get it together.
The weapon was the Dover Devil 50 Cal MG. It was one of four bread boards we had put together.
The Gunny assigned to me was a guy after my own heart as he knew where to scrounge everything so we got some empty 55 gal drums, 12 gage cold rolled plate etc and put two gals of avgas in each and put them down range. Made sure they were bounced around and handled roughly before setting them up down range.
We got ignition with API on every drum and thusly since the drums were for all practical purposes empty could not be defined as a hard target with the ignition being 100% on just the drum.
We had about 3ft diameter detonations on the steel plate which the sound could easily be heard from 400 yards even with muffs on.
As we all know a rinky dink 22 will punch a 55 gal drum. Glad you were not hurt.
50 cal AP is required to punch 3/4" high hard armor plate at 300 yards or fail. This plate is very tough. A 30.06 Match round will just disturb the surface at 300 yards and at 400 yards take off the rust and not even dent the plate.
I have seen recovered AP penetrators after going through plate on the plate test range and the penetrator is not even deformed in the least ! ! ! ! ! They would not even deform impacting plates and low angle! ! !
I have some 30.06 bullets I picked up on a military range and I chucked them in lathe and turned the jackets off. Make great center punches.
When I was working for the Army Small Cal Lab I was in charge of setting up a demo for Marine Corps at Quantico and I went down early to get it together.
The weapon was the Dover Devil 50 Cal MG. It was one of four bread boards we had put together.
The Gunny assigned to me was a guy after my own heart as he knew where to scrounge everything so we got some empty 55 gal drums, 12 gage cold rolled plate etc and put two gals of avgas in each and put them down range. Made sure they were bounced around and handled roughly before setting them up down range.
We got ignition with API on every drum and thusly since the drums were for all practical purposes empty could not be defined as a hard target with the ignition being 100% on just the drum.
We had about 3ft diameter detonations on the steel plate which the sound could easily be heard from 400 yards even with muffs on.
As we all know a rinky dink 22 will punch a 55 gal drum. Glad you were not hurt.
50 cal AP is required to punch 3/4" high hard armor plate at 300 yards or fail. This plate is very tough. A 30.06 Match round will just disturb the surface at 300 yards and at 400 yards take off the rust and not even dent the plate.
I have seen recovered AP penetrators after going through plate on the plate test range and the penetrator is not even deformed in the least ! ! ! ! ! They would not even deform impacting plates and low angle! ! !
I have some 30.06 bullets I picked up on a military range and I chucked them in lathe and turned the jackets off. Make great center punches.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've read about loading bullets backwards in WW1 to pierce armour plate (either counter sniper operations to pierce the old "sniper plates" or against early armoured vehicles).
Would be interested to know what would you be using these for?
</div></div>
I saw a show on the History Channel about an archeological excavation in France where they talked about that.
Didn't make any sense why that would work to me (but I'm just a layman). Perhaps it'd hit the armor plating with enough energy to create some spall from the plate itself to shower over the guy behind it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've read about loading bullets backwards in WW1 to pierce armour plate (either counter sniper operations to pierce the old "sniper plates" or against early armoured vehicles).
Would be interested to know what would you be using these for?
</div></div>
I saw a show on the History Channel about an archeological excavation in France where they talked about that.
Didn't make any sense why that would work to me (but I'm just a layman). Perhaps it'd hit the armor plating with enough energy to create some spall from the plate itself to shower over the guy behind it?
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
I have seen API's ignite in a really hot M2HB barrel and 20-50 feet beyond it didn't destroy the M2 barrel but it was already junk from being fired so hot that it was glowing orange so you could watch the bullet leave on a machine gun shoot I attended at Fort Gordon in GA.
I would not however want it going off in my Remington 700 or this gentlemans ruger 77
I have seen API's ignite in a really hot M2HB barrel and 20-50 feet beyond it didn't destroy the M2 barrel but it was already junk from being fired so hot that it was glowing orange so you could watch the bullet leave on a machine gun shoot I attended at Fort Gordon in GA.
I would not however want it going off in my Remington 700 or this gentlemans ruger 77
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
Just as a point of interest I pulled up my reference material I have had for 30+ years. It appears you have bullets from M20 APIT.
It flew at 2900 fps and had around 55,000 PSI launching it.
Incendiary Flash must be capable of initiating combustion of flammable liquids (liquids with a flash point not grearter than 100 deg F at 175 yards.
Bullet or core must completely penetrate 7/8" armor plate at 100 yards.
The incendiary composition is IM11 with a charge weight of 15 to 15.3 gr.IM-11 which consists of
50% Barium Nitrate
50% Magnesium Aluminum Alloy
or IM161 I have not been able to locate the composition of 161.
Accuracy was 12" mean radius at 600 yards which means you cannot expect 100% hits on anything much smaller than the end of a 55 gal drum from a accuracy test barrel no less.
Bullet weight is 619 - 25 grains. The penetrator weighs 355- 15 grains made from Managanese Molybdenum Steel.
The igniter composition is I-276 and I haven't been able to determine that composition either.
The propellant is IMR 5010 and burned about 230 grains at a whack.
the trace is supposed to initiate at 100 yards and continue for 1600 yards.
I suspect what has saved you to this point is you are not using 50 cal primers and thus are not nearly as hot as the MILSPEC primers and your power curve hasn't risen enough to reward you with an inbore whoopee.
If you have shot these as a normal load are you achieving trace ignition?
Just as a point of interest I pulled up my reference material I have had for 30+ years. It appears you have bullets from M20 APIT.
It flew at 2900 fps and had around 55,000 PSI launching it.
Incendiary Flash must be capable of initiating combustion of flammable liquids (liquids with a flash point not grearter than 100 deg F at 175 yards.
Bullet or core must completely penetrate 7/8" armor plate at 100 yards.
The incendiary composition is IM11 with a charge weight of 15 to 15.3 gr.IM-11 which consists of
50% Barium Nitrate
50% Magnesium Aluminum Alloy
or IM161 I have not been able to locate the composition of 161.
Accuracy was 12" mean radius at 600 yards which means you cannot expect 100% hits on anything much smaller than the end of a 55 gal drum from a accuracy test barrel no less.
Bullet weight is 619 - 25 grains. The penetrator weighs 355- 15 grains made from Managanese Molybdenum Steel.
The igniter composition is I-276 and I haven't been able to determine that composition either.
The propellant is IMR 5010 and burned about 230 grains at a whack.
the trace is supposed to initiate at 100 yards and continue for 1600 yards.
I suspect what has saved you to this point is you are not using 50 cal primers and thus are not nearly as hot as the MILSPEC primers and your power curve hasn't risen enough to reward you with an inbore whoopee.
If you have shot these as a normal load are you achieving trace ignition?
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
Some cool info thank you for posting.
When loaded tip forward I would get about 50% trace until I started piercing the copper cup covering the tracing element with a pin, now I get 90-95% trace.
Let me be clear. I have not shot these backwards out of my rifle yet. These are dummy rounds to check for feed and function from the mag. From the info gathered so far looks like I won't be trying them backwards.
Some cool info thank you for posting.
When loaded tip forward I would get about 50% trace until I started piercing the copper cup covering the tracing element with a pin, now I get 90-95% trace.
Let me be clear. I have not shot these backwards out of my rifle yet. These are dummy rounds to check for feed and function from the mag. From the info gathered so far looks like I won't be trying them backwards.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
I think the thing that amazes me the most in all of this is what possesses someone to even <span style="font-style: italic">want </span>to try shooting them backwards in the 1st place??? Did the conversation go somthing like this:
"Hey Rufus, I wuz thinkin' that it'd be cool to shoot them thar tracer bullets back'ards. Wuddya think?"
"Thats a GREAT idear, Bubba! That a way, we could see the tracer better cuz it'd pointing towards us. Load some up and let's try it. Git er dun!"
I think the thing that amazes me the most in all of this is what possesses someone to even <span style="font-style: italic">want </span>to try shooting them backwards in the 1st place??? Did the conversation go somthing like this:
"Hey Rufus, I wuz thinkin' that it'd be cool to shoot them thar tracer bullets back'ards. Wuddya think?"
"Thats a GREAT idear, Bubba! That a way, we could see the tracer better cuz it'd pointing towards us. Load some up and let's try it. Git er dun!"
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
I wouldn't shoot these either.That being said I've shot a bunch of 690 grain South African ball projectiles loaded backwards over 50-65 grains of Trailboss in my 50BMG with great results.
To the last poster,it is an aerodynamic issue.For subsonic use a teardrop is better than a typical pointed boat tail bullet.Since they don't make teardrop shaped bullets this is damn close.By the way they trace from the rear.
I wouldn't shoot these either.That being said I've shot a bunch of 690 grain South African ball projectiles loaded backwards over 50-65 grains of Trailboss in my 50BMG with great results.
To the last poster,it is an aerodynamic issue.For subsonic use a teardrop is better than a typical pointed boat tail bullet.Since they don't make teardrop shaped bullets this is damn close.By the way they trace from the rear.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
Backwards loaded bullets have been shot in subsonic applications for quite some time. That part is a known quantity, center-fire rifle bullets are optimized to fly supersonic. Supersonic stability/accuracy is not same for subsonic bullet flight (one of the reasons you typically depart controlled flight after going subsonic in long range applications).
Backwards loaded bullets have been shot in subsonic applications for quite some time. That part is a known quantity, center-fire rifle bullets are optimized to fly supersonic. Supersonic stability/accuracy is not same for subsonic bullet flight (one of the reasons you typically depart controlled flight after going subsonic in long range applications).
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Notso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the thing that amazes me the most in all of this is what possesses someone to even <span style="font-style: italic">want </span>to try shooting them backwards in the 1st place??? Did the conversation go somthing like this:
</div></div>
Us who shoot 300/221’s whispers or what ever they are calling them now do it to increase energy transfer to game. A 220gr MK will do more damage when shot backward than point first.
If you get some regular Ball, AP, or APT you will be fine.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Notso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the thing that amazes me the most in all of this is what possesses someone to even <span style="font-style: italic">want </span>to try shooting them backwards in the 1st place??? Did the conversation go somthing like this:
</div></div>
Us who shoot 300/221’s whispers or what ever they are calling them now do it to increase energy transfer to game. A 220gr MK will do more damage when shot backward than point first.
If you get some regular Ball, AP, or APT you will be fine.
Re: One hell of a boat tail.
A while back there was a video floating around on BiggerHammer.net of an M82 firing APIs that suffered a detonation just beyond the muzzle brake. Dunno if it's still available online, but one suspects the ignition of incendiary composition within the barrel would certainly make for an interesting event. In the name of science, it would be fascinating to see the results...but I wouldn't want to put my rifle up to the test, and wouldn't dream of being any closer than behind hard cover, with a nice long string around the trigger.
A while back there was a video floating around on BiggerHammer.net of an M82 firing APIs that suffered a detonation just beyond the muzzle brake. Dunno if it's still available online, but one suspects the ignition of incendiary composition within the barrel would certainly make for an interesting event. In the name of science, it would be fascinating to see the results...but I wouldn't want to put my rifle up to the test, and wouldn't dream of being any closer than behind hard cover, with a nice long string around the trigger.
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