One Piece Scope Mounts ..What do you use?

PRS Blog really statistically likes Hawkins
I am puzzled by the prevalence of Hawkins rings in PRS. I’m sure they are well-made, but so are many rings.

I wonder if it’s in part because the owner of Hawkins is a pretty good PRS competitor himself? Word-of-mouth etc.

Changing the subject a bit: The writer of that PRS blog suggests many competitors push down on the diving board for control when shooting. One of the Hawkins’ diving boards in the PRS article is really really long (below)…all that leverage on the scope tube doesn’t cause issues?
1719167397802.jpeg


The ARC Mbrace one-piece seems to be the only one that completely isolates the diving board mount from the ring cap, unless I’m not understanding how the other mounts work (very possible).
 
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I am puzzled by the prevalence of Hawkins rings in PRS. I’m sure they are well-made, but so are many rings.

I wonder if it’s in part because the owner of Hawkins is a pretty good PRS competitor himself? Word-of-mouth etc.

Changing the subject a bit: The writer of that PRS blog suggests many competitors push down on the diving board for control when shooting. One of the Hawkins’ diving boards in the PRS article is really really long (below)…all that leverage on the scope tube doesn’t cause issues?
View attachment 8444911

The ARC Mbrace one-piece seems to be the only one that completely isolates the diving board mount from the ring cap, unless I’m not understanding how the other mounts work (very possible).
Correct the diving board transmits force through the rings not the scope bell or body.
 
Correct the diving board transmits force through the rings not the scope bell or body.
I’m not so sure.

From the little I understand about how rings clamp upon the scope tube, it’s a particularly springy sort of clamp dynamic where the tube itself is more active in the system than, say, clamping a stainless steel block.

Sort of like clamping jello vs clamping concrete.

If you look at slow motion vids of harder hitting rifles you’ll see the scope flexing around. Add a (relatively) heavy WMLRF or possibly a 🦍 hand pressing down and I could see some pressure imparted upon the scope tube.

Pretty close to worst-case:


Another (slightly less) worst-case (lead-sled type, read the description why it’s hard on scopes):


I include this vids as they vibrate the scope/ring/rail system enough to be seen clearly. Not suggesting that your 21 lbs 6br or 22LR does a similar amount of vibe.

I mean, besides the MBrace design, most other scope rings use just the itty-bitty threads of 4 to 6 tiny screws to stand in-between a WMLRF that’s rocking a ring cap and the scope tube.

Although to be fair, Near Alphamount rings use 8 screws up front, and the Area419 rings have a dowel pin on each ring side that might limit back/forth rocking a bit.

Perhaps most scope tubes on an 6br are strong enough for hand pressure, especially if it’s not a gorilla doing it 🦍. I guess we don’t hear of a rash of scope failures attributed to hand pressure on diving boards. Not sure anyone would draw that inference, however, leaving the issue hidden.

However, over time with a WMLRF or spotlight up there (like the night-hunter Euros tend to do) I’m not so sure. A bunch more mechanical advantage occurring. Especially with a harder kicking caliber.

And it sounds like WMLRF are now being used more often in certain comps.

The MBrace one-piece pretty much just eliminates that potential, uh, “joint” (for lack of a better non-engineer-guy term). At least that’s what its design appears (to me) to do.

I’ll let the engineers chime in with their much more informed opinions. @E. Bryant @308pirate @koshkin
 
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I’m not so sure.

From the little I understand about how rings clamp upon the scope tube, it’s a particularly springy sort of clamp dynamic where the tube itself is more active in the system than, say, clamping a stainless steel block.

Sort of like clamping jello vs clamping concrete.

If you look at slow motion vids of harder hitting rifles you’ll see the scope flexing around. Add a (relatively) heavy WMLRF or possibly a 🦍 hand pressing down and I could see some pressure imparted upon the scope tube.

Pretty close to worst-case:


Another (slightly less) worst-case (lead-sled type, read the description why it’s hard on scopes):


I include this vids as they vibrate the scope/ring/rail system enough to be seen clearly. Not suggesting that your 21 lbs 6br or 22LR does a similar amount of vibe.

I mean, besides the MBrace design, most other scope rings use just the itty-bitty threads of 4 to 6 tiny screws to stand in-between a WMLRF that’s rocking a ring cap and the scope tube.

Although to be fair, Near Alphamount rings use 8 screws up front, and the Area419 rings have a dowel pin on each ring side that might limit back/forth rocking a bit.

Perhaps most scope tubes on an 6br are strong enough for hand pressure, especially if it’s not a gorilla doing it 🦍. I guess we don’t hear of a rash of scope failures attributed to hand pressure on diving boards. Not sure anyone would draw that inference, however, leaving the issue hidden.

However, over time with a WMLRF or spotlight up there (like the night-hunter Euros tend to do) I’m not so sure. A bunch more mechanical advantage occurring. Especially with a harder kicking caliber.

And it sounds like WMLRF are now being used more often in certain comps.

The MBrace one-piece pretty much just eliminates that potential, uh, “joint” (for lack of a better non-engineer-guy term). At least that’s what its design appears (to me) to do.

I’ll let the engineers chime in with their much more informed opinions. @E. Bryant @308pirate @koshkin

Holy Crap !!!! The 50bmg vid shocked me!! it didn't realise a scope tube could flex that much !!!!
 
I use one Spuhr for looks and own two Arc Mbrace. Love the Mbrace. So easy.

But I have been thinking about buying a Near Manufacturing Alphamount with the Spuhr accessories compatible ring cap.
View attachment 8441810

Reg ring caps
View attachment 8441811


Richard, the owner, can make you whatever you want. He’s some genius machinist/designer. I own some of his Rem700 bases and they are amazing. He loves TRG’s.

One thing he’s not is a web designer or e-commerce wizard. He runs two sites (below). Call him, trust me, call and don’t email. He loves to chat and ships fast.

I agree, Richard produces a world class bunch of rings and mounts. I had one of his Alfa-mounts. I agree that he is no internet guru. He concentrates on his product. I’ve met him a couple of times and have been to his shop. He can be a bit of a strange fellow. Nothing serious, but he sometimes goes off in a direction that might get you wondering about his sanity. But, he’s harmless.

I would highly recommend his stuff.
 
That's an old video and like the old bending pencil trick. The mount/receiver is not solid and moving and makes everything look worse.
Yeah, I know. I tried to make it clear that normally one isn’t gonna have that sort of “boing” happening, and I only posted it to show the (exaggerated) effect because it’s easier to see.

The Warne vid is closer to a sane rifle and tight connection between rail/rings/scope. But even that one has additional vibes happening because it looks like the up/down vibrating sled added to the “boing.”

Man, I’m using some highly technical words lol.

Again, tried to make it clear that the vid vibes are not typical, only that they’re big enough to see in order to make the overall diving board/WMLRF/ 🦍 hand leverage point.

Imagine how much worse the vid vibes would be with a Vortex Impact 4000 up on a diving board. Yeesh.
 
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This may be of mild interest. Now, we all know that in addition to pro shooters picking equipment that they think will enhance their ability to win, its also true that many of them use particular brands of gear because....well, they are sponsored. So, take some of this with a grain of salt.

99.999% of pro shooters buy their own gear (unless their main sponsor happens to make mounts, as well. Like MDT, MPA, etc)
 
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Pretty close to worst-case:

Its for this reason that I've gravitated to rings, 90% of the time. I prefer to have my eye relieve set...and then get my rings as far apart as the mounting space will allow.

That said...I just built a 300 NMI on a Coup De Grace that has 30 MOA built in to the action. I'm giving serious considering to using a 20-30 MOA optic mount to have 50-60 MOA of total cant.

But, with this thought, I'm hesitant since most one piece mounts don't get the rings apart very far.

Does anyone make a one piece mount with 20-30 moa that has the rings either adjustable or further apart?

1.jpg
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3.jpg
 
Its for this reason that I've gravitated to rings, 90% of the time. I prefer to have my eye relieve set...and then get my rings as far apart as the mounting space will allow.

That said...I just built a 300 NMI on a Coup De Grace that has 30 MOA built in to the action. I'm giving serious considering to using a 20-30 MOA optic mount to have 50-60 MOA of total cant.

But, with this thought, I'm hesitant since most one piece mounts don't get the rings apart very far.

Does anyone make a one piece mount with 20-30 moa that has the rings either adjustable or further apart?

View attachment 8446977View attachment 8446978View attachment 8446979
Near Manufacturing might make you one. Call, don’t email.

Other than that…Spuhr still might make an extra wide set. They used to.

Maybe there’s others?

Tbh I would only be worried about ring/scope vibes if you either use a WMLRF+diving board on the ring cap, really press down hard on a diving board, shoot extremely violently recoiling rifles, use lead sleds, or perhaps if you shoot air springers. I’m no expert, however.

Edit: maybe add SCAR to the list, whose recoil pattern sounds more akin to air rifles.
 
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The LRF/“diving boards” can absolutely produce POI shift if they’re used as a means to brace the rifle. Certain brands/designs are more prone to it than others, and it’s obviously dependent on the amount of force imparted on the mount.

ARC has really been the only one that considered it by completely isolating their LRF mount from the ring caps. Badger and Reptilia both have designs that utilize a secondary ring and cap to distribute the force more evenly. 419s taper design is also interesting, though the cap itself would still bear the brunt of the leverage.
 
Near Manufacturing might make you one. Call, don’t email.

Other than that…Spuhr still might make an extra wide set. They used to.

Maybe there’s others?

Tbh I would only be worried about ring/scope vibes if you either use a WMLRF+diving board on the ring cap, really press down hard on a diving board, shoot extremely violently recoiling rifles, use lead sleds, or perhaps if you shoot air springers. I’m no expert, however.

Edit: maybe add SCAR to the list, whose recoil pattern sounds more akin to air rifles.
I know Kinetic Development Group makes one. I have it on my Cadex 25 Creed. It's great for what it does, but it's not what I want for this 300 Norma system...but it's nice to be able to move the rings fore and aft.
1719430111721.png


Looks like the Spuhr SP-4901C has an outside spacing of 4.76". I'll have to look around to see if there's some others to compare.
MDT is likely as much or more...but I didn't see anything available in the 20 or 30 MOA range.
MPA 34mm 1.125" with 20 MOA says it's OAL is 4.84 but the mounting surface is less than the Spuhr.
Badger Condition One Max 34mm / 1.3" could be an option, but I don't see an outside to outside dimension listed. Sent an email to ask.
 
I’m not so sure.

From the little I understand about how rings clamp upon the scope tube, it’s a particularly springy sort of clamp dynamic where the tube itself is more active in the system than, say, clamping a stainless steel block.

Sort of like clamping jello vs clamping concrete.

If you look at slow motion vids of harder hitting rifles you’ll see the scope flexing around. Add a (relatively) heavy WMLRF or possibly a 🦍 hand pressing down and I could see some pressure imparted upon the scope tube.

Pretty close to worst-case:


Another (slightly less) worst-case (lead-sled type, read the description why it’s hard on scopes):


I include this vids as they vibrate the scope/ring/rail system enough to be seen clearly. Not suggesting that your 21 lbs 6br or 22LR does a similar amount of vibe.

I mean, besides the MBrace design, most other scope rings use just the itty-bitty threads of 4 to 6 tiny screws to stand in-between a WMLRF that’s rocking a ring cap and the scope tube.

Although to be fair, Near Alphamount rings use 8 screws up front, and the Area419 rings have a dowel pin on each ring side that might limit back/forth rocking a bit.

Perhaps most scope tubes on an 6br are strong enough for hand pressure, especially if it’s not a gorilla doing it 🦍. I guess we don’t hear of a rash of scope failures attributed to hand pressure on diving boards. Not sure anyone would draw that inference, however, leaving the issue hidden.

However, over time with a WMLRF or spotlight up there (like the night-hunter Euros tend to do) I’m not so sure. A bunch more mechanical advantage occurring. Especially with a harder kicking caliber.

And it sounds like WMLRF are now being used more often in certain comps.

The MBrace one-piece pretty much just eliminates that potential, uh, “joint” (for lack of a better non-engineer-guy term). At least that’s what its design appears (to me) to do.

I’ll let the engineers chime in with their much more informed opinions. @E. Bryant @308pirate @koshkin

A WMLRF can definitely cause your ring cap to come loose on certain designs. Happened to me during an NRL Hunter match when I chose to run my Impact kind of on a lark (was a bit over weight for Open-Light so figured why not) on a Spuhr Hunting unimount. Caused a big POI shift (0.5 down, 0.4 right, iirc). Spoke with a friend of mine at Spuhr and he told me that although the hunting unimount can accept a diving board, they never really intended for it to be used with a WMLRF. I've had no issues with the ring cap coming loose on the regular Spuhr mounts (6 screw caps) or the Vortex branded Seekins rings, including over this past weekend where I spent a bunch of time running around with a rifle (with Spuhr mount) bouncing around on my back for BOTC. I've got all the fasteners witness-marked (and I degreased and loctited the Spuhr fasteners per their instructions) and check them regularly and there have been no issues so far.
 
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A WMLRF can definitely cause your ring cap to come loose on certain designs. Happened to me during an NRL Hunter match when I chose to run my Impact kind of on a lark (was a bit over weight for Open-Light so figured why not) on a Spuhr Hunting unimount. Caused a big POI shift (0.5 down, 0.4 right, iirc). Spoke with a friend of mine at Spuhr and he told me that although the hunting unimount can accept a diving board, they never really intended for it to be used with a WMLRF. I've had no issues with the ring cap coming loose on the regular Spuhr mounts (6 screw caps) or the Vortex branded Seekins rings, including over this past weekend where I spent a bunch of time running around with a rifle (with Spuhr mount) bouncing around on my back for BOTC. I've got all the fasteners witness-marked (and I degreased and loctited the Spuhr fasteners per their instructions) and check them regularly and there have been no issues so far.
While I am no expert at WMLRF + diving boards at all, I’m a little concerned about longer term ring cap flex upon a scope with an WMLRF even if the cap screws are not loose.

It appears that just little screws might not make a rigid-enough interface in that scenario? It’s just a guess, my opinion is worth nothing. I wish an engineer would chime in.

Thinking about that, I guess some engineers have chimed in, only in the marketplace and not in this thread.

For example, Ted at ARC has chimed in by addressing the issue with his design, and so have Badger and Nightforce with their additional diving board bracing. Maybe some other manufactures have too…haven’t looked at everybody’s one-piece rings with diving boards.

Doesn’t mean they are right, of course. Lots of designs in the world turn out later to be…less than noteworthy. But…it’s sorta persuasive to me.
 
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I decided to set up one of my Spuhr IMS mounts and check just how true the ring journals are. Used a precision ground lapping bar .
Interesting results...not quite as true as i anticipated.
 

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I decided to set up one of my Spuhr IMS mounts and check just how true the ring journals are. Used a precision ground lapping bar .
Interesting results...not quite as true as i anticipated.
So, the closeup on the red bars: is what you are referring to is that the lower gap between the bars is slightly narrower?
 
2 more Spuhr,s
 

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I can almost guarantee you that if you get some of the "best" or most expensive mounts/rings and test to see how true they are, many on here will be disappointed.

Exactly.

All rings and mounts as well as the scope tubes are going to have some deviation from perfect cylindricity. Also keep in mind the mount, ring cap, and scope tube itself will all deflect some when the scope is installed and the ring screws are torqued.

If the spuhr mounts were really way out of whack for cylindricity, everyone using them would see heavy marks on their scopes when they removed their scopes from the mounts. When I swapped all 11 of my spuhr mounts out, all the scopes came out perfect, so they're really not as bad as your lapping test looks. The color contrast where the anodizing is removed makes it look much worse than it is. Also, the diameter and cylindricity of your lapping bar as well as lapping technique can remove material in a non-uniform manner which can make the mount or rings look even worse.

23ish years ago when I first started shooting I remember when most rings and bases weren't machined that well and you could count on light to heavy ring marks or even small dents and depressions in your scope tubes if you didn't lap the rings. Things improved though; I haven't lapped rings since around 2010ish and I can't recall a single scope coming out of higher quality rings or mounts with a marred finish since around that time even without lapping.
 
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I’m not so sure.

From the little I understand about how rings clamp upon the scope tube, it’s a particularly springy sort of clamp dynamic where the tube itself is more active in the system than, say, clamping a stainless steel block.

Sort of like clamping jello vs clamping concrete.

If you look at slow motion vids of harder hitting rifles you’ll see the scope flexing around. Add a (relatively) heavy WMLRF or possibly a 🦍 hand pressing down and I could see some pressure imparted upon the scope tube.

Pretty close to worst-case:


Another (slightly less) worst-case (lead-sled type, read the description why it’s hard on scopes):


I include this vids as they vibrate the scope/ring/rail system enough to be seen clearly. Not suggesting that your 21 lbs 6br or 22LR does a similar amount of vibe.

I mean, besides the MBrace design, most other scope rings use just the itty-bitty threads of 4 to 6 tiny screws to stand in-between a WMLRF that’s rocking a ring cap and the scope tube.

Although to be fair, Near Alphamount rings use 8 screws up front, and the Area419 rings have a dowel pin on each ring side that might limit back/forth rocking a bit.

Perhaps most scope tubes on an 6br are strong enough for hand pressure, especially if it’s not a gorilla doing it 🦍. I guess we don’t hear of a rash of scope failures attributed to hand pressure on diving boards. Not sure anyone would draw that inference, however, leaving the issue hidden.

However, over time with a WMLRF or spotlight up there (like the night-hunter Euros tend to do) I’m not so sure. A bunch more mechanical advantage occurring. Especially with a harder kicking caliber.

And it sounds like WMLRF are now being used more often in certain comps.

The MBrace one-piece pretty much just eliminates that potential, uh, “joint” (for lack of a better non-engineer-guy term). At least that’s what its design appears (to me) to do.

I’ll let the engineers chime in with their much more informed opinions. @E. Bryant @308pirate @koshkin


Its for this reason that I've gravitated to rings, 90% of the time. I prefer to have my eye relieve set...and then get my rings as far apart as the mounting space will allow.

That said...I just built a 300 NMI on a Coup De Grace that has 30 MOA built in to the action. I'm giving serious considering to using a 20-30 MOA optic mount to have 50-60 MOA of total cant.

But, with this thought, I'm hesitant since most one piece mounts don't get the rings apart very far.

Does anyone make a one piece mount with 20-30 moa that has the rings either adjustable or further apart?

View attachment 8446977View attachment 8446978View attachment 8446979

img_3232-jpeg.8488973

img_3233-jpeg.8488974


I never got to answer what the better method of mounting scopes was, with the consideration of flex during recoil.

Thought I was the only one who thought that way 🤣

This was the rationale for my having chosen the Spuhr 4003B 🤣
 
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I figured I'd share my findings so far.
Looks like top options scope mounts with a diving board for 35mm are:
Arc Mbrace -16.3 oz
Seekins hit precision LFR kit- 8.5 oz
Area 419 -10.9 oz
Hawkins Precision Heavy tactical one piece mount. - 12oz gpt 1.27" height, 13.5oz for 1.5" and add 2oz for diving board.
 
anyone know weight on the Hawkins heavy tactical 1 piece moount with diving board?
Anyone have experience with LSR mounted on it? Any issues, poi shifts?
should I just get the area 419 mount or seekinsHIT Precision LRF Kit?
@CSTactical can tell you. I cant remember but they are lighter comparatively to other similar options. Richard what was that number ?