Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

[isptroop38]

My agency is looking to test and carry a bonded .308 round for it's tactical unit sniper rifles. We would still carry and primarily use FGMM, but want the option of the bonded round. I have seen a few references to FBI Ballistic Tests where Federal 165 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw performed the best through glass and barriers. However, I cannot locate a copy of this test.

Can anyone advise where to locate the article or am I best off speaking with the "Bureau"?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Chiller]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

in that you are "agency" thought of contacting the FBI?

 

[isptroop38]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Yes, as stated in the end of my post, I have thought of that and will do so. I was just thinking that the "helpful" people like yourself on the Hide may have access to or know where I could find it without waiting and without having to get shuffled through the phone calls.

If it's easier to call them, then I will.

 

[hoosierswat]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

I have a copy of the test results on a cd at work I can try and send you. The only thing is I won't make it back into work until Monday. It's not the cleanest copy. It was scanned from the report which was on paper but it does have the data. If you find a copy before then let me know by pm. If you do find a "clean" copy let me know I would like to get a copy.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

if becomes a larger issue of the flow of information.

being you are a bit of a unknown makes it difficult for the information to flow.

 

[LSOSGT1109]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

When I went through sniper school in 2008 we tested the 168 FGMM, 168 Black Hills, and 165gr Federal Tactical Bonded. We shot from 100 yards through auto glass, both front windshield and side and rear windows, as well as through dual paned anealed home window glass. We saw virtually no difference in the performance of these three rounds when shooting through the glass. We shot straight on and from different angles and all three rounds performed well.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to persuade you or your agency in one way or another. This info is based on the results we saw after a day of shooting glass and nothing else. I just thought it was interesting and may be helpful.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if becomes a larger issue of the flow of information.

being you are a bit of a unknown makes it difficult for the information to flow. </div></div>

Exactly!

Is the info out there... yes im sure it is.

But would you want the people behind door you are about to kick in to have the training manual of your dept? Or the specs of your kit? Maybe that's a bad example but I think you can understand what Im getting at.

Go through the proper channels to get the info you are seeking. Another agency, the source, etc...

 

[hoosierswat]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSP446</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I went through sniper school in 2008 we tested the 168 FGMM, 168 Black Hills, and 165gr Federal Tactical Bonded. We shot from 100 yards through auto glass, both front windshield and side and rear windows, as well as through dual paned anealed home window glass. We saw virtually no difference in the performance of these three rounds when shooting through the glass. We shot straight on and from different angles and all three rounds performed well.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to persuade you or your agency in one way or another. This info is based on the results we saw after a day of shooting glass and nothing else. I just thought it was interesting and may be helpful.</div></div>

When you fired these rounds during training was it into ballistic gelatin? Or were you shooting at paper targets behind the glass? There is a big difference in those rounds when it comes to penetration.

 

[SwatSgt]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Google is your friend

The whole article is not about shooting through glass but about half way down it covers glass and its effects.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19878

 

[isptroop38]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Fellas, that's a good point and point taken. I just assumed it would be like most other FBI studies and would have been published somewhere and readily available. I will go through proper channels.

My agency is switching ammo in our issued patrol rifles (going from jacketed HP to bonded round) and are looking to add a bonded .308 round while doing so. We didn't get rifles until just over 3 years ago and only had 870's for a long gun until then. The program is in it's infancy and going from a jacketed round to a bonded round is a huge step in the right direction.

We have done training shooting through windshields with FGMM and were pleased with the results and low deflection of straight angled shots. We did no testing of penetration, but don't expect it to be as much as a bonded round of the same weight. Thus, we're looking for ammo to test which led me to post here.

 

[hoosierswat]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

PM sent

 

[isptroop38]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Hoosier, PM sent. I'm one and the same.

SwatSgt, thanks for the link. I have read that article before. It references the FBI results as well. I was trying to find the FBI results too so we didn't reinvent the wheel with our testing.

 

[Buford Boone]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

The FBI Ballistic Research Facility regularly disseminates information to LE Agencies. This information is "LE RESTRICTED". Requesting Agencies must submit a letterhead request, signed by a Supervisor (Sgt. or higher), with an "official use" statement and an agreement that the information will not be copied or disseminated outside their Agency.

It is pretty simple, if an Agency gets info from us and they think another Agency may benefit from that info, we ask that they only provide a copy of their REQUEST LETTER, not the actual data. If the other Agency sends a proper request, they will get an updated package.

This is an Officer Safety issue. If it is discovered that the agreement has been violated, contact is made with the head of the Agency for whatever action they deem appropriate.

If you don't know how to submit the letter, a simple call to your local FBI office Principal Firearms Instructor can pave the way. It might even establish a relationship between you and him. This is a good thing, he's likely to need your help one day.

Remember: "We're the FBI, we're here to help you".

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

this information is not rocket science or classified! get ya some glass of various kinds, get ya some ammo of various types and shoot it. ballistic gellatin is also easy to make for that matter.

this is like the "loop hole" horse shit everyone gets worked up about. if you are capable of rudamentary ballistics calcs you can figure it out. if not, cut a hole in some cardboard and start shooting till you do.

ymmv

 

[isptroop38]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Buford Boone, thanks for the info. That helps me.

Killswitch, I understand what you're saying, but it's already being done. I was trying to see the FBI study to see what ammo we should buy in order to test. The ballistics test is already scheduled - just need ammo to test and that's what started this whole thread.

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

 

[harley_jeff]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

PM sent

 

[LSOSGT1109]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hoosierswat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSP446</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I went through sniper school in 2008 we tested the 168 FGMM, 168 Black Hills, and 165gr Federal Tactical Bonded. We shot from 100 yards through auto glass, both front windshield and side and rear windows, as well as through dual paned anealed home window glass. We saw virtually no difference in the performance of these three rounds when shooting through the glass. We shot straight on and from different angles and all three rounds performed well.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to persuade you or your agency in one way or another. This info is based on the results we saw after a day of shooting glass and nothing else. I just thought it was interesting and may be helpful.</div></div>

When you fired these rounds during training was it into ballistic gelatin? Or were you shooting at paper targets behind the glass? There is a big difference in those rounds when it comes to penetration. </div></div>

We were shooting at paper targets and you are correct. I'm sure there is a big difference in penetration with these rounds. There is a difference in penetration with these rounds when not shooting thru glass as well. I just thought I'd pass the info I had along.

 

[isptroop38]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Got it. Thanks Bill!

 

[aqualung]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buford Boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Remember: "We're the FBI, we're here to help you". </div></div>

Isn't this the scariest sentence you can ever hear??

Just sayin....

 

[okrebel92]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paduan Learner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buford Boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Remember: "We're the FBI, we're here to help you". </div></div>

Isn't this the scariest sentence you can ever hear??

Just sayin.... </div></div>

+1

 

[Little Bill]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

The disc through Buford is worth the request gymnastics. It contains a metric ton of rifle data (308, 223, 6.5) and handgun data. It certainly provides an objective view of raw data.

Buford was easy to talk to and very helpful, even though he does have FBI creds. ;^)

 

[Triad]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Getting the request from the FBI is not hard. Get a agency manager to sign off on a written request on letterhead and mail it to Buford. Wait for the CD to arrive.

You could do this stuff yourself, but why? Buford has been doing it for years and has facilities and capability backed by your tax dollar.....

Get the CD, study it. Use that info to help you narrow the field, then select and test.

Buford buddy, you have a PM.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

When you call the FBI make sure you let them know ALL of the caliber's and types of firearms you want. They have them all and only so much fits on the CD. I spoke with Buford one of the times I called it just hit me lol.

 

[Buford Boone]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Actually, it is one-stop-shopping. You don't need to be caliber specific in your request.

If you ask for any data, you'll get the CD. The CD contains all data we will release.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Ok, my bad I only got the 9mm, .40, and .45 for the pistol as well as 5.56 and 6.8. Sounds like I should send a new request for everything.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

SA Boone Thank you for walking me through exactly how I was wrong and the disk did have everything. Could it be true? He is from the Gov't and he is here to help?

 

[brazos609]

Re: Online Copy of FBI 308 Ballistic Tests Thru Glass?

Go here:
http://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?EventID=876279
and register for a class and you will quickly see how much better the Gold Dot and TBT can perform through glass than GMM.