Sidearms & Scatterguns Open carry vs Concealed

[lw8]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OC is not faster unless you are talking about competition holsters with no substantive retention. Any decent retention holster is going to have the same draw speed for a concealed draw and and exposed one provided the user trains as he/she should.

As far as intimidation...that is laughable. The kinds of criminals you actually have to worry about are not intimidated by your holstered weapon.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't think going open carry for intimidation is what you should be looking for.</div></div>

Let's turn this one around and make it as clear as possible by asking a simple question:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why don't police officers carry concealed if it presents a tactical advantage without any major drawbacks?</span>


"Intimidation" has negative connotations for those who are afraid of the legal system, but "deterrence" might be the better term. On the basis of any statistically meaningful sample, I'd be more than willing to bet that fewer armed confrontations occur for those carrying openly, than for those carrying concealed.

On an anecdotal basis, I know of stores that have been victimized specifically because their employees were unarmed, and I know of stores that have been left alone because their employees were visibly armed.

On a personal basis, I know of one incident that occured to me a few years back, where the open (and legal) display of a holstered pistol deterred a group of gangbangers from a robbery attempt. One week later, an identical group of individuals got into a shootout in a neighboring town with someone who wasn't visibly armed.

I'm not suggesting that open carry is ideal, primarily because for the reasons mentioned above, the cultural acceptance is still very low. What I would strongly maintain, however, is that a visible firearm is a deterrant to criminal behavior more often than it is not. Plenty of criminology studies have been showing reduced crime rates in states where people are obtaining increasing numbers of carry permits. Does anyone really think that criminals are only deterred by a theoretical weapon? </div></div>


I am a LEO and I CC daily. If I OC for work, it is in a Level 3 Retention holster.

The argument that uniformed cops don't CCW is silly...they are in Uniform so there is no suprise.

The point remains, CCW is best from a tactical/survival standpoint. Speed/Suprise/Violence of Action. Suprise and VOA are the most important to get in someone's OODA loop and impose your will through violence/death. CCW is the best way to do that and live to see another day.

But...big boy rules, your life, your choice.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

i dont think any OC'er will deny that CC is better from a tactical/survival standpoint...however until the various state governments scrap the permit process for CC, many people will be open carrying instead of CC'ing in states where OC does not require a permit.

on the flip side, CC does nothing to promote a gun culture, change an anti gun culture or outwardly display refusal to submit to unjust authority be it common criminal or rogue government, etc.

 

[ubet]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

Does anyone have any statistics or actual story references of an someone ocing being targeted first in a robbery?

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

i'd be very curious to hear those stats or evidence to back that up as well....

 

[groovebus]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

I grew up in Texas and was always taught that if you are expecting trouble you carry your gun where people can see it. If you carry for the "what if" situation, the CC is much better idea. It's low key and doesn't alarm the sheep. But when the wolves show up, it's go time.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

The statistic game is a two way street. I know in this day and age there is a stat for everything.....but not really. If you want to create your own go ahead. Someone else will create one to trump that, and so on. I don't buy stats, they can be fudged to the agenda of the person making it. I look at actual events. If it can happens once to one person, it can happen to anyone.

 

[ubet]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The statistic game is a two way street. I know in this day and age there is a stat for everything.....but not really. If you want to create your own go ahead. Someone else will create one to trump that, and so on. I don't buy stats, they can be fudged to the agenda of the person making it. I look at actual events. If it can happens once to one person, it can happen to anyone. </div></div>

I am not saying it does or doesnt, I just am curious to see if their are ANY instances confirming or denying "if you oc, you are going to be the first one shot". I only oc, where ccw is not an option to me, or when I am out of town and its legal. I have no dog and no opinion in this debate, I just am curious of incidents where the quoted did/did not happen. No opinion.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

i agree on stats, especially since i am a believer in free market economics. which is why i prefer other forms of 'evidence' and not just stats. who ever compiles them generally choose not to tell you all variables, 'the rest of the story...' etc.

i'd be happy with a couple dozen newspaper stories of OC'ers having their sidearms taken and used against them to justify the paranoia some have for OC in general.
as previously stated, im not denying OC has some strategic concerns, im just simply meaning to put forth the idea that lots of the concerns pro cc vs oc guys have is slightly over blown. and also putting forth that OC is a useful tool in education and accomplishing various ends in achieving freedom. many have put forth the thesis that the arizona open carry gun culture is responsible for them now having 'discreet' carry without a permit.

there is also some truth in many people considering an open weapon to be someone 'looking for trouble.' although i reject this, many people do believe this. there is also another tradition that had the opposite view. that someone hiding their intentions, concealing their weapons are up to know good. in fact in societal or legal terms, concealing something, weapon, intent, actions, etc is more frowned upon than someone legally, vocally, or visibly exercising their rights.

no one seems to want to touch the argument, but the reason you have so much open carry in some of these states is because people are not willing to ask the government for permission to simply throw a shirt over their side arm. it sort of illustrates the idiocy and silliness of the CCW movement in general. many states have no permit open carry. you are legal as long as the sidearm is in plain sight. this is largely based on the common law tradition as i previously stated, that says...'visible=good, concealed = bad.' but the moment someone allows an outer garment to drape over their otherwise legally carried sidearm, they are breaking the law. they must then submit to fingerprinting, paying an extortion racket fee, being in the database, and taking an arbitrary class put on by people who sometimes dont even know the laws they are educating people on. and the gun safety test is laughable at best.

i say if you scrap the CCW permit entirely, you will eliminate most of the OC vs CC debate. until then, i think folks should simply respect each others positions on the issue and become a united pro gun front, instead of a divided group bickering over silly stuff.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

The topic of concealed vs open carry can not be compared to that of a LE vs citizen perspective. The two are entirely different.

As far as statistics go regarding an open carry being targeted first. Why don't we take a poll? Hypothetically speaking lets assume each of us are executing an armed robbery. You walk through the door and see 5 people, 1 of them has a holster handgun. Which will you deal with first? Or lets change it up, you walk in and none of them are armed but one is wearing a t-shirt that says, "Guns don't kill people, I kill people". Who are you going to deal with first?

Anyone worth a damn will size people up in a confrontation and prioritize how to deal with them. Do some research on the OODA loop and you will understand the process the human brain goes through. The tactic of concealed carry buys you time to observe, orient, decide and act. The threat also deals with the OODA loop, that threat has to process who is the biggest threat to them and how to deal with them.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

i think that is a troubling comparison as it undermines the other pro gun arguments cited to point to a reduction in gun crime after states started allowing citizens more liberty in self defense. all of us cite the fact that crime goes down in states that allow carrying of some sort. all of us cite that the threat of someone possibly carrying is a deterrence. we also usually argue with the anti's that we'll just put a sign out front of our house that says this house is occupied by an armed citizen and we'll put another sign with an arrow pointing next door to the anti gun guy saying that that house is occupied by someone who doesnt own a gun, and ask which is more likely to be victimized.

OC has some desirable effects. for instance, after moving back onto family land a while back after being away for 10 years, i attribute me open carrying with me being able to take back said property. it was over run with trespassers usually trafficking in drugs between apartment complexes on either side of said property. (approximately 10 acres with apartments on either side) after open carrying whenever out and about doing chores, within 2 weeks and a couple confrontations, i never had to worry about drug couriers again. and the stories started being circulated back to me from neighbors about how the people in the apartment complex wouldnt mess with cutting across my property any more on account of the crazy guy who carries a .45 everywhere.

so your scenario sort of obviously points to the few absolute crazies who want to risk it all just to get a couple hundred bucks from a C-store, but it doesnt illustrate the fact that some one who is not absolutely bat shit crazy just might give up on robbing said store, after seeing someone open carrying, and move onto some other easier victim. in the same manner, most wont go into a C store and hold everyone at gun point if it is also a police substation with 3 LEO's standing in the corner. do robberies of these places happen? probably relatively few, but i'd so overwhelmingly most criminals would pass this place on by.
to me there are many more people deterred from seeing firearms and engaging in said robberies than shooting someone first in order to get a few bucks from a cash register. i might be wrong, but most of these clowns want to avoid getting caught, not making things worse.

i dont think the badge vs non badge makes much of a difference. lets face facts, most people who rob C stores, are of fairly low intelligence to begin with, and nearly everyone thinks anyone OC'ing to be some sort of LEO automatically anyway.

 

[Graham]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

There is no tactical advantage to open carry in an urban environment. That said, almost everyone in Israel carries openly eveywhere. So, and again, it depends on where you are.

It also depends on who you are. Here in Michigan there are people who cannot obtain CCWs but are not prohibited from carrying a gun, so they carry openly.

I would not advise carrying openly unless you also possess good open-hand defensive tactics skills. Otherwise you may be the one bringing a gun to a conflict. In most states an assault without a weapon and without injury to another is a misdemeanor. Can you use deadly force (your gun) to protect against a misdemeanor assault (someone grabbing your jacket or wrestling with you)? Think about it. Because that scenario exists:
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

this story is semi-relevant to graham's point about knowing when deadly force is 'legal'

http://www.wxii12.com/news/28345979/detail.html

 

[Graham]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brutus1776</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this story is semi-relevant to graham's point...</div></div>Actually, it is very relevant. Let's have a look at some of the issues involved in the case that Brutus posted above:

In general, one is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another person, when and to the extent that it is reasonably believed that such force is necessary for the defense of self (or another) from the other person’s imminent use of unlawful force. But one may use deadly force in self-defense only in response to a deadly force attack. So, deadly force is permitted (again, in general) only for defense against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Now, in addition to that, one's belief of the threat of imminent death or great bodily harm must be honest and reasonable under the circumstances.

Questions:

1) Was the man under threat of death or serious bodily harm? And
2) Was the man's belief of the seriousness of the threat (sufficient to use deadly force) honestly held and a reasonable belief under the circumstances?

Or, was he mistaken?

A mistake of fact is a mistaken or ignorant belief that circumstances are not as they truly are. A mistake of fact could be a defense to the charge of murder, even if the mistake was unreasonable, provided that it negates an element of the crime. On the other hand, a mistake of fact is a defense to involuntary manslaughter only if it is reasonable - meaning only if it is the type of mistake a reasonable person would have made under the same or similar circumstances.

Did the man get charged with a crime, or was his use of deadly force considered to be reasonable?

This is not a hijack of the Thread, it's an illustration of the disadvantage of open carry when force less than deadly force is appropriate and necessary: Why let anyone know that you are armed unless and until you are forced to use deadly force to save your life or that of another?!

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

"This is not a hijack of the Thread, it's an illustration of the disadvantage of open carry when force less than deadly force is appropriate and necessary: Why let anyone know that you are armed unless and until you are forced to use deadly force to save your life or that of another?!"

in general i agree with your sentiment, however it is necessary to point out that the armed guy in the story i posted was open carrying and im willing to bet (but cannot prove it), just like most people one encounters when open carrying, the guy who jumped out of his car to attack the armed guy NEVER saw the jogger/armed guy was carrying.

i seriously doubt the altercation in that story would of went down with a guy running at an openly armed guy with only his fists, but i might be wrong.

the main thing i like to point out is something that was described by an economist in the mid 20th century. he wrote a book called 'economics in one lesson' in which he detailed said that in order to properly understand various things in the economy you have to not just look at a case and how it pertains to one specific group. you must look at how it applies to all groups and over a period of time. we all know that if the government gives a company money to build a bridge to no where, they created jobs for the duration of the bridge project, but we dont see what other investment would of taken place by the private sector. the same has to be pointed out with OC. if one guy has is sidearm taken and used against himself or if one guy gets 2 rounds to the forehead by someone trying to grab 100$ from a cash register for open carrying and being a 'target,' you cannot see the other myriad of cases that the OC'er might of deterred violence. you cant see the lives saved by OC. you also cannot see the good that displaying firearms to the public can do to advance a gun culture as we recently witnessed in arizona, culminating in the repeal of the CCW permit requirement to carry concealed.

i think it is vital to not merely stick to tactics, but to weigh the disadvantages and the advantages. i would never talk bad about someone who chooses to open carry or conceal carry or in any way rag on their choice. but i guess im just that kind of guy who just likes to let people be.

 

[Graham]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

My point is that people who carry openly should consider heavily <span style="text-decoration: underline">why</span> they choose to do so, <span style="text-decoration: underline">where</span> they choose to do it (to include the climate and the culture in which they do it), and <span style="text-decoration: underline">how</span> it could impact any potential use of force.

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

OC is not faster unless you are talking about competition holsters with no substantive retention. Any decent retention holster is going to have the same draw speed for a concealed draw and and exposed one provided the user trains as he/she should.

As far as intimidation...that is laughable. The kinds of criminals you actually have to worry about are not intimidated by your holstered weapon.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't think going open carry for intimidation is what you should be looking for.</div></div>

Let's turn this one around and make it as clear as possible by asking a simple question:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why don't police officers carry concealed if it presents a tactical advantage without any major drawbacks?</span>


Because everyone knows when a uniformed officer shows up he is armed. There is no surprise. No one that sees an officer is questioning whether he is armed. Listen I get OC can have it's purpose but to me it's not worth the negative attention from the public. If you have to ask questions like this though I feel you should probably cancel your registration with Snipershide.

 

[Graham]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

A uniformed officer with backup on the way is a deterrent to crime. Uncle Elmo with a chrome .45 on his hip is not.

Ideally, a firearm should remain out of sight until the moment before it is (lawfully) used. Doing otherwise is as likely to escalate a conflict as it is to end it.

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A uniformed officer with backup on the way is a deterrent to crime. Uncle Elmo with a chrome .45 on his hip is not.

Ideally, a firearm should remain out of sight until the moment before it is (lawfully) used. Doing otherwise is as likely to escalate a conflict as it is to end it.
</div></div>


+1^

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

Here's a thought, lets go global with what this topic has become. Do you think in the countries where they open carry full auto AKs crime is down?

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

im not so sure that comparing a place like somalia to small town USA is going to be really relevant to this debate. it leaves out to many variables, differences in culture, etc.

i've even had an anti tell me that if guns 'save lives' or 'make a polite society' then war zones should be tranquil. this sort of seems to be a quasi-similar type of logic you are putting forth.

a better example MIGHT be comparing a state in the US with a very high open carry percentage to a CC carry only state, however this not perfect either as it leaves out variables such as how violent the society is in general in those places, etc.

i still fail to see why many CC only guys get so bent out of shape about someone open carrying. many seem to think in pure absolutes. as in 'OC always leads to getting shot in the forehead by a robber' or 'if you open carry you will have your gun stolen...' fact is i just wish we could all sort of come to conclusions like this and make it the general consensus:

sometimes open carry can deter crime

once in a while, an OC'er might be targeted by an absolute bat shit nuts perpetrator

concealed carry generally offers the best tactical advantage

OC'ers are more likely to have a weapon taken

more people would CC carry if politicians would get rid of the permits all together in no - permit open carry states.

OC is a useful political statement and can have positive results in the area of increasing liberty

yet the arguments usually amount to ....'you are an idiot if you open carry, blah blah blah, throw those guys in jail, get a permit, etc' instead of just saying..'eh, to each their own, but im CC'ing'

 

[shooter2360]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

The only time that i open carry is when i am use the tractor on private hunting land. I would not like to open carry, i don't wont everyone to know that i have a gun. Also in my county in alabama all you have to do to get a cc permit is go to the sheriff office and do the paper work, and no finger prints are need. The cost is only $20 a year.

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

First I want to say I am not completely against open carry. When I'm in civilian clothes I prefer concealed. I wasn't just trying to use Somalia though. Almost every country that open carries is a shithole! Yes Brutus there are tons of variables but what I'm saying is how bad has a country become where everyone feels the need to open carry? Yeah yeah yeah the cowboys were a polite society blah blah So you want shoot outs outside the bars like the polite cowboys? In my opinion the open carry society represents that crime is so bad I need this as a deterrent to protect myself. I will say again I am not against open carry just think it shows an uncivilized part of society. Why is concealing it sooo bad?

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion the open carry society represents that crime is so bad I need this as a deterrent to protect myself. I will say again I am not against open carry just think it shows an uncivilized part of society. Why is concealing it sooo bad? </div></div>

What, then, is the point of CC if not for the fact that crime is so bad you need it to protect you and your family? Does it make your dick bigger?

As for getting your weapon stolen, I would proffer the possibility that the person who is open carrying is perhaps more aware of their weapon than those of us who conceal carry, if for no other reason than their intent to make a political statement. A man carrying a protest sign is fairly focused on and acutely aware of that sign. After all, that is his current agenda.

As for being the first one shot, I suggest that is the risk one assumes if one chooses to open carry; again, exercising an individual right to choose.

My real question, that I have seen no one here answer, is just why do you oppose a citizen openly carrying a weapon - from a purely ideological standpoint? Not from a tactical viewpoint; I think we all at least marginally agree the advantage there is with CC. Honestly, what's the problem for you? If that person is making a statement, are you really opposed to that message? And should that person become the first one taken out by a bad guy, how can you possibly oppose that - after all, doesn't that give you more time to act in your own best interests as well as to ID the bad guy in the first place, not to mention remove attention from you and your family? It really amazes me to see so called "pro-gun" folks so adamantly opposed to the sight of a handgun..... that's something I expect from the Brady Bunch. Why are you so shocked/appalled/intimidated/sickened/put-off at the sight of a weapon? Honestly, I don't get it from anyone except antis. I expect that sort of reaction from them and their ignorant-ass position of fear and loathing. But not from anyone on this forum......

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the better question is why does a citizen need to conceal carry?</div></div>



Because, LE is always late to the party, an my family is going home safe, one way or the other.

</div></div>
I think you miss the point here.... My question is NOT why does one need to carry a weapon. It's why should one be forced to conceal that weapon should one choose not to. The debate for me is not one of tactical superiority nor the need for a weapon. The point of the question is why should it be dictated how one chooses to carry that weapon. If I feel that concealed carry is the best option for me (which I do) what give me, you, or anyone else the temerity to decide wholesale that's what's best for everyone else as well? I suppose it really comes down to what part of "shall not be infringed..." escapes people?

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the better question is why does a citizen need to conceal carry?</div></div>



Because, LE is always late to the party, an my family is going home safe, one way or the other.

</div></div>
I think you miss the point here.... My question is NOT why does one need to carry a weapon. It's why should one be forced to conceal that weapon should one choose not to. The debate for me is not one of tactical superiority nor the need for a weapon. The point of the question is why should it be dictated how one chooses to carry that weapon. If I feel that concealed carry is the best option for me (which I do) what give me, you, or anyone else the temerity to decide wholesale that's what's best for everyone else as well? I suppose it really comes down to what part of "shall not be infringed..." escapes people? </div></div>

So where do you draw the line? Is it ok for people to run around with ARs slung on their back? Do you want it to look like Somalia? If you let people open carry their handgun why not an AK? Carrying concealed is to not make my dick look bigger in fact I think people who open carry are trying to make more of statement then those who carry concealed. Crime is bad and that is why I carry concealed but I don't want it to look like other third world countries with everyone running around brandishing guns.

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

I also like how you compared open carry to carrying a protest sign....makes complete sense hahaha I guess now that you put it like that it makes perfect sense....(Huge SARCASM)

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also like how you compared open carry to carrying a protest sign....makes complete sense hahaha I guess now that you put it like that it makes perfect sense....(Huge SARCASM) </div></div>
Sarcasm all you like, it's pretty much the assertion you guys are making - the only reason for OC is to make a political statement. If that metaphor escapes you, well, you wouldn't get it anyway.

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So where do you draw the line? Is it ok for people to run around with ARs slung on their back?
</div></div>
Show me a current law that says it isn't ok....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you want it to look like Somalia? If you let people open carry their handgun why not an AK?
</div></div>
Doesn't matter what <span style="font-style: italic">I want</span>. My rights end where others' begins. As do yours. It's not for me to tell someone what they can/can't carry, per the Constitution. Doesn't matter if you or I like it or not, that's the point.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...in fact I think people who open carry are trying to make more of statement then those who carry concealed.
</div></div>
Yeah, in most cases I believe that's true. However, can you say you disagree with their statement? That's what I'm asking you after all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Crime is bad and that is why I carry concealed but I don't want it to look like other third world countries with everyone running around brandishing guns. </div></div>
Crime <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> bad. That's exactly why I support the right of folks to carry a weapon, and their right to do so as they choose. Do you honestly think we are in danger of your Somalia example? If so, people brandishing weapons should be the least of your worries. Again, I ask, what are you afraid of from OC? Do I OC? No. Do I support others' right to do so? Absolutely.

Funny thing.... not all that many years ago, carrying a weapon <span style="font-style: italic">concealed</span> was illegal. OC was ok, and only criminals had a reason to carry a concealed weapon. Then, the gov. decided that with their <span style="font-style: italic">permission</span>, it is ok. Now the perception of society is that only a nut-job or a criminal would "brandish" a weapon.

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

I work in a gun store, and I strongly dislike open carry. I conceal carry at work and about my personal life.

In my opinion, there is NO existing benefit to open carry. The only advantage to open carry that I recognize as even logical is draw speed.

However, I carry my 1911 condition 3, and I think you condition 1 guys are paranoid. I train often, can 1 hand rack ambi multiple ways, and can israeli draw my firearm more than fast, and any split second time advantage open carry condition 1 gives me is only valuable on the range during comp shooting, not during street encounters.


Open carry is uncouth, draws attention, confrontational, and less practical.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
However, I carry my 1911 condition 3, and I think you condition 1 guys are paranoid. I train often, can 1 hand rack ambi multiple ways, and can israeli draw my firearm more than fast, and any split second time advantage open carry condition 1 gives me is only valuable on the range during comp shooting, not during street encounters.

</div></div>

KSwift,

I can not believe you buy into this.

So you have been in a lot of "street encounters" that back up your claim? Most people don't carry condition 1 because they are afraid the gun may "go off". Truth of the matter is people who make the condition 3 claim don't have good training that builds confidence.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Almost every country that open carries is a shithole! </div></div>

i still think you are leaving out some variables and are even using some 'anti' logic in some of your points.
does your shit hole analogy apply to states like wyoming and arizona where OC is very common? or to switzerland where its common to see guys riding subways and bikes with full auto sig 550's on their backs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes Brutus there are tons of variables but what I'm saying is how bad has a country become where everyone feels the need to open carry? </div></div>

i'd say we would be a freer country if everyone felt the need and had the legal ability to open carry. we'd live in a country that respected individual rights.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why is concealing it sooo bad? </div></div>

im 100% in favor of CC. and i believe most OC'ers in states with no permit open carry would CC most if not all the time if they didnt have to succumb to erroneous regulations on the carrying of concealed sidearms that various legislatures have passed and sheriffs and pd's enforce. we have turned the RIGHT of carrying a firearm into a conditional privilege where one must obtain permission from the rulers to do so. i seek to eliminate this privilege scenario and restore firearms ownership and carrying to be a right. and arguably OC and creating a society that respects firearms is one way to go about it.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DonniePD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So where do you draw the line? Is it ok for people to run around with ARs slung on their back? Do you want it to look like Somalia? </div></div>


in fact many places...this is legal. as in the slung AR's part.
in case you missed it, they even do it at obama rallies:

i believe just like various other legal activities that just because something is legal that it doesnt mean it will be common and EVERYONE will be doing it. i mean, its legal to have sexual relations with house furniture, but i dont think to many people do it. i reject the notion that laws governing every aspect of human behavior are needed to 'keep everyone' in line.

i also dont think we should confuse 'brandishing' with 'carrying.'

there are many things people do that i dont agree with, that i might think are silly, but i'll still defend their right to do it.

 

[dpairborneranger]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

Besides "leaving out variables" you can't deny almost all open carrying countries are shitholes. I'm not sure about the picture of the guy with an AR slung but I have a hard time believing he isn't some sort of security for something. I'm not afraid of OC just believe people should want it concealed. I don't want to raise my child where everywhere I go people are brandishing guns. I do not want my child scared of guns, I just want him to think we live in a more "civilized" society than the cowboys, Afghanis, etc etc...this thread has been beaten to death. I'm not completely against open carry at times, just think it is "nicer" to conceal.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

that is the beauty of freedom. one person can do what they want, and another can do what they want. however there is no such thing as a 'right' to not be offended or to trample other peoples freedom in order for society to appear or function as you wish.

as for the open carry guy at the obama rally, no he was not security.
i've listened to the only interviews the guy did (he avoided chris matthews and the like vehemently). just an average guy making a statement.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Article/0...ris-and-his.htm

im surprised you havent heard of the guy before, it made national news for about week. in fact they even tried to conceal that the guy was black and were trying to blame the OC incident on 'racists.'

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The topic of concealed vs open carry can not be compared to that of a LE vs citizen perspective. The two are entirely different.

As far as statistics go regarding an open carry being targeted first. Why don't we take a poll? Hypothetically speaking lets assume each of us are executing an armed robbery. You walk through the door and see 5 people, 1 of them has a holster handgun. Which will you deal with first? Or lets change it up, you walk in and none of them are armed but one is wearing a t-shirt that says, "Guns don't kill people, I kill people". Who are you going to deal with first?

Anyone worth a damn will size people up in a confrontation and prioritize how to deal with them. Do some research on the OODA loop and you will understand the process the human brain goes through. The tactic of concealed carry buys you time to observe, orient, decide and act. The threat also deals with the OODA loop, that threat has to process who is the biggest threat to them and how to deal with them. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A uniformed officer with backup on the way is a deterrent to crime. Uncle Elmo with a chrome .45 on his hip is not.</div></div>
I respectfully disagree with this.

The argument that an armed robber will shoot the obviously armed bystander first is flawed. Armed robbers use their guns to intimidate. Unless you're in a battle zone, most try not to kill people, and try to avoid having even odds of being killed themselves. If an armed robber was robbing a convenience store, I'd think he would think twice about robbing one where he saw someone else was obviously armed. It increases the odds of him being killed, even if he tried to shoot him first. Before I brandish his weapon, he'd turn around and leave, and go look for an easier target of oportunity.

Now granted, not all criminals think this way, but most do. It is only the hardened criminal, that has no respect for life at all that would go to rob a place, PLANNING to shoot someone. In this case, yes, they would more likely pick the target most likely to fight back. But I think this is the small minority of criminals. Can it happen that an OC guy will get shot first? Sure. The odds of it escalating to gunfire though are significantly less though. It's a risk some are willing to take.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

John,

How is it flawed? I have 9 years of full time law enforcement experience. In that short time I have found that anyone portraying themselves as an aggressor has an increased chance of being engaged. I agree that most criminals go for the easy target but I can show you dozens of incidents where criminals go beyond using weapons strictly as intimidation. If you truly believe that criminals are only using weapons to intimidate then you will have a difficult time using deadly force.

Some of you are missing the point that OC is a tactic. This thread isn't strictly about only doing Open Carry or only Concealed Carry. I can see where some of you are going with this, basically adopting one tactic rather than pick the right tactic for the job.

Try reading the news stories on Police One ever few days and get a grasp on what actually happens across the country. Real events are what shape techniques, tactics, procedures and equipment.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

Cowboy,

I'm not in the absolutist camp. I recognise that it CAN and has happened where OC is seen as an aggressor. However, (and I'm not sure how you would prove it statistically) I think that seeing an armed citizen would make a criminal think twice about committing a crime involving a firearm in their presence. No, I can't prove that. We will never know how many more times a criminal has been deterred from a crime by seeing an OC going about their business, and decided it's not worth the risk, and left to seek a "softer target".

But, for those determined criminals that are not afraid of getting into a gunfight, I concede you do have a point. But I think it happens in the minority.

Yes, I would prefer to CC. It has it's advantages as outlined very adequately throughout this thread. But I do also feel that OC DOES confer its own tactical advantage too, of increasing the deterrent factor, along with some increased risk as well. It's a personal decision, and I respect a person's right to choose for themselves.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

The "right" to OC or CC is the problem. Stop looking at it as a right and start looking at it as a tactic. Take for instance room entries. The general rule of thumb is the number 1 guy into the room is never wrong, the number 2 guy feeds off of him. A lot of the time this is true but given specific information about the room you are about to enter it may be a better choice to go right rather than left. Or for example the sound of an intruder in your home, some instances it is best to call 911 and lock your self down, other times take the fight to them. Sure I have rights but I operate by way of tactics.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

how do you address when the right to carry a gun concealed is extremely curtailed, infringed upon, if not banned in various localities across the country? it is impossible to detach the 'rights' issue from this discussion.
also left out of the discussion, is that OC is largely a political and cultural statement.

i think all sides already agreed CC is superior from a tactical standpoint, but this is only 1/3 of the issue at hand. eliminate the hoops, and bans on concealed carry and OC will dramatically decrease, and i'd argue much to the satisfaction of both sides of the debate.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how do you address when the right to carry a gun concealed is extremely curtailed, infringed upon, if not banned in various localities across the country?</div></div>

For me the day will come that I won't be carrying as a police officer but as Joe Citizen. Should the law be negative towards CCW at that time I will way my options and chose the appropriate tactic. The situation will dictate. I will weigh the known threats, apply situational awareness. At the end of the day I am going home and if that means a jury of my peers judge me then so be it.

 

[brutus1776]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

well put.

i dont know if / when you carry as joe citizen, the LEO's enforcing the myriad of gun laws will be sympathetic to your view point if you break them, but i fully understand your sentiment in the post.

on a side note, one thing i have noticed is that as a general rule LEO's tend to be by and large anti-open carry, and many are even anti-CC as well.

 

[Lodi]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

Like most of the others on here I conceal it if I'm out in public, but while I'm out enjoying nature I open carry because Ms. Coyote or Mr. bear has no hesitation. I also have different firearms for each application.

 

[Falar]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brutus1776</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well put.

i dont know if / when you carry as joe citizen, the LEO's enforcing the myriad of gun laws will be sympathetic to your view point if you break them, but i fully understand your sentiment in the post.

on a side note, one thing i have noticed is that as a general rule LEO's tend to be by and large anti-open carry, and many are even anti-CC as well. </div></div>


Those that believe that they hold the power don't want to share it.

For example, politicians will never actually "shrink" our government. It has done nothing but grow over time.

 

[csi:cyberspace]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "right" to OC or CC is the problem. Stop looking at it as a right and start looking at it as a tactic. </div></div>
I will do so when the government, LE, and the general public acknowledge it as a right, and not a tactic. Until then, it remains the issue for me even though I do CC.

 

[bmt]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "right" to OC or CC is the problem. Stop looking at it as a right and start looking at it as a tactic. </div></div>

AMEN.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

Judging from how long this has been going on, the OP has had his answer many times over. I don't think this was meant to be pissing match. Some useful information has been posted, sadly, piled on with a bunch of preferences. Of coarse once something negative was said about one type of carry it hurled into the whole "you cant say that because its my right" argument. I never saw the OP say anyone "should" do it his way. If you sort though all these posts with garbage in them, the answer to the OP's question it right there.....Neither way is better, or worse, than the other. I never read anything that was so profound that one method was the ultimate choice over the other. I also didnt read anything that stated OC shouldnt be allowed. To some its inferior, to others its un-civilized, for many its all they got. I will not judge someone by the method of carrying a weapon. I will, however, judge a person on how he or she carries themselves when they have the weapon. If I told a person that they had to carry one way and they end up in a confrontation where they loose, but could have won had they chose the opposite method of carry, then not only would I look stupid for giving bad guidence, but it would have also proven my choice isnt always the correct one. Carry however way you want. If you want it for protection then have at it. Just want to make a political statement? Go for it.

Regardless of what you carry, please do so in a manner that does not reflect badly on all gun owners. The last thing we need is someone to be an ass, or go too far, thus resulting in bad publicity, and possibly more restrictions.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Judging from how long this has been going on, the OP has had his answer many times over. I don't think this was meant to be pissing match. </div></div>

It <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">always</span></span></span> turns into a pissing match.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

open carry is best.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I teach I stress to students, "Know the why". Why are you doing one tactic or technique versus another? The are numerous ways to accomplish a task. For example, open carry versus concealed carry. There is a time and place for Joe Public to carry open. The post New Orleans Katrina was a great time to open carry. The tactic would tell those observing, "I am not an easy target". Outside of that type of scenario I can not conceive of an instance where a citizen would need to open carry.

So this week I was on vacation with the family and we stopped at a rest area on the PA turnpike. The rest area was very busy, to the point that there was a short wait to use the restroom. As I waited I noticed an older grandpa type helping what I assumed was his grandson wash his hands. The grandson was probably 4-5 years old. I noticed the grandpa had a chrome 1911 on his right hip. The grandpa's shirt was untucked but the shirt appeared to be slightly tucked in between the gun and waist band. My gut reaction was he failed to conceal the weapon after using the restroom so as he exited I discretely told him his handgun was exposed. To my surprised the guy acted like I was infringing on his rights and snapped back stating that PA is an open carry state.

All I could think was why would this guy want to advertise his handgun in a very crowded rest stop all while trying to manage his young grandson?

So what is the advantage to open carry for the citizen? </div></div>Because he can.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Open carry vs Concealed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mar2012</div><div class="ubbcode-body">open carry is best.</div></div>

/\/\/\/\/\Opinion.......but its fun to repeat things.