Rifle Scopes Open Leupold Apology

[Gunfighter14e2]

I've had what I thought was a running issue with a Leupold 6.5X20X50 M1 Mk 4 for years now on a 300wm. It was back to them 3-4 times. When it came back each time the combo would do 1/2 moa w/o issue, for 30-40 shots then start opening up until it was a 3 moa combo. The root issue was the Badger rings I've had for years, on a 20 moa Nightforce base. Long short I swapped out the Badger rings for Burris Sig XTR's then reinstalled the scope after it came back this last time. Took her to the range yesterday an today she printed a total of 12 5 shot groups with the largest being .75 an the smallest being .25 moa.

Looking at the rings an base with the mk 1 eyeball you could see nothing, however with a magnifying glass you could see worn spots on both rings an base. Yes the combo was always torqued properly. Why that combo did that is beyond me. The Nightforce base an Burris combo is working, as are the Badger rings I pulled off an installed on the Salvage 338LM using a 20moa Nightforce base on it as well. I have no explanation as to the root issue between the rings an base, as those rings are working well on the savage Nightforce base.

Leupold was very patient, paid the freight, an in general was always open to the claimed scope issue being their problem. I am now wondering how much they eat in freight an service costs, that a dumb ass like me was claiming a scope issue, which it is not.
The mistake I kept making was when I moved another scope on to that rail, I did not use the same rings that held the 20X,...Maybe if I had done that I could have found the issue long before. Stupid me.

So long short, I think many a scope Leupold an others as well are blamed for internal issues, when the root issue is otherwise.

 

[rustyinbend]

I've learned to always blame the "Moron at the trigger" (me) first. It's rarely the gadget, but when it is ... it's good to have no-blame warranty support from a credible manufacturer. Had a similar experience (my fault) with Athlon, and they were terrific.

 

[Gohring65]

We had this conversation in another forum.
I wondered how many guys sent scopes in and they got a clean bill of health. The vertical split rings thread is a good example of this.
Guys get their scope back only to put it back in the same rings and say the scope company didn’t fix the issue.
9 times out of 10, if I’m having scope problems I can usually find the error in my setup not in the scope mechanics.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Did you lap the rings?

 

[Gar.]

Interesting problem and thanks for posting. Did you use aluminum rings and base? Or was one component steel? Also, was the scope base full slot type like picture A, or more like picture B?

A

B

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Gar
The base on the 300wn is full like A an is steel. The one on the 338LM is also steel but is the B style. The Badger rings are steel, but the Burris are aluminum. Does not seem to be any rime or reason. Only thing I can think of is a tolerance stack, with the original combo.

 

[chutinlead]

Interesting problem and thanks for posting. Did you use aluminum rings and base? Or was one component steel? Also, was the scope base full slot type like picture A, or more like picture B?

Whats the big difference? I just bought a EGW base like in picture B, only to find they have a higher grade 7075 AL base like in picture A thats double the price. Wondering if its worth returning and upgrading.

 

[Gohring65]

I would say you’re probably right. Could’ve been the rings or base or both. The Burris Sig rings are probably taking any binding out of the equation.

 

[1911hombre]

We had this conversation in another forum.
I wondered how many guys sent scopes in and they got a clean bill of health. The vertical split rings thread is a good example of this.
Guys get their scope back only to put it back in the same rings and say the scope company didn’t fix the issue.
9 times out of 10, if I’m having scope problems I can usually find the error in my setup not in the scope mechanics.

School me on the "vertical split ring" problem you speak of. Thanks!

 

[Gohring65]

School me on the "vertical split ring" problem you speak of. Thanks!

Rather not get into that mess. Lol

You should just use the search and read the thread.

 

[1911hombre]

Rather not get into that mess. Lol

You should just use the search and read the thread.

Yeah, I've been doing that, LOL. I think the original thread is gone from what I can tell, but I'm piecing it all together. Classic stuff there!

 

[Gar.]

Whats the big difference? I just bought a EGW base like in picture B, only to find they have a higher grade 7075 AL base like in picture A thats double the price. Wondering if its worth returning and upgrading.

While doing some research for a current built, I read an article that mentioned some “potential” problems using steel rings with an 6061 aluminum alloy base; the article mention the 7075 aluminum alloy base was prefered. There was also information comparing the base in Pic-A, with the base in Pic-B, which noted some scope rings work best with the full slot seen in Pic-A. YMMV

Ive always used SPUHR rings like the one pictured below, mounted on an action with a built in scope base; but recently decided to build a lighter weight backpacking rifle using different rings and a screw on base. I’m using an aluminum base made from 7075 aluminum and is type III Hardcoat anodized (similar to picture A), and attached using 8-40 Torx T10 screws. The rings are from the same manufacture/ alloy.

The one area I don’t want to cut costs on is the base and rings. If your just building a rifle to plink steel, it probably won’t make a difference. If you’re going to be competitive, or plan on hunting in sheep country, then strength and weight need to be considered.

 

[D_TROS]

...Long short I swapped out the Badger rings for Burris Sig XTR's then reinstalled the scope after it came back this last time. ...

Love these rings. Invaluable esp for scopes with smaller than 34mm tube for maximizing scope travel and getting a white trash zero stop..

Regards
DT

 

[chutinlead]

While doing some research for a current built, I read an article that mentioned some “potential” problems using steel rings with an 6061 aluminum alloy base; the article mention the 7075 aluminum alloy base was prefered. There was also information comparing the base in Pic-A, with the base in Pic-B, which noted some scope rings work best with the full slot seen in Pic-A. YMMV

Ive always used SPUHR rings like the one pictured below, mounted on an action with a built in scope base; but recently decided to build a lighter weight backpacking rifle using different rings and a screw on base. I’m using an aluminum base made from 7075 aluminum and is type III Hardcoat anodized (similar to picture A), and attached using 8-40 Torx T10 screws. The rings are from the same manufacture/ alloy.

The one area I don’t want to cut costs on is the base and rings. If your just building a rifle to plink steel, it probably won’t make a difference. If you’re going to be competitive, or plan on hunting in sheep country, then strength and weight need to be considered.

I went with a set of Vortex's new Pro Series 30mm rings made of 7075 AL. Probably a good idea to get the stronger base rather than have a weak link between my rings and rifle of 6061 AL.

 

[Gohring65]

I actually started to get into a argument on Facebook with a guy when I said it’s only quality rings and bases for me. He tried to make the argument that scope rings being misaligned and tube deflection doesn’t hurt performance. The op had quality rings and base, I can’t imagine what cheap Chinese so called aluminum rings and bases are doing to scope tubes.

 

[Gar.]

I went with a set of Vortex's new Pro Series 30mm rings made of 7075 AL. Probably a good idea to get the stronger base rather than have a weak link between my rings and rifle of 6061 AL.

That should work. Not sure about the “Pro Series”, but Seekins Precission makes some of the higher end rings for Vortex Optics, like the PRECISION MATCHED rings. Seekins makes high quality rings. I have a set of both, 35mm Seekins, and 34mm Vortex (precission matched), identical except for scope diameter.

These rings, if placed on a good base, do not need to be lapped, just make sure you don’t mix up the two top pieces when installing (may not matter, but best not too).

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Did you lap the rings?

No the rings were never lapped, an I bought them new.

 

[b6graham]

No the rings were never lapped, an I bought them new.

because we dont need to lap rings anymore

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

because we dont need to lap rings anymore

I've seen some quality rings installed on shit bases or 700's that the heels were way out of spec, that would mark a tube.

 

[patriot07]

I"ve used a bunch of rings from $30 SWFA, $20 Leupold from Academy, Vortex PMR, Seekins, etc. and only had an issue one time - with the only set of Badger rings I've had. Scope wouldn't hold zero more than a few shots, and this was on a braked 6.5CM. I know lots of folks love them, but never again for me.

I do tend to work my way out from the shooter to bases/rings, ammo, scope, rifle, and then to just complete unknowns. But I've seen issues in each one of those areas - just seems like they get less likely as you move down the list.

 

[captainmorgan460]

I don't understand how there can't be a bunch of issues with a 6061 ring on a 7075 base or steel base. It's soft shit stretchy cheap aluminum.

 

[918v]

I've seen some quality rings installed on shit bases or 700's that the heels were way out of spec, that would mark a tube.

Back in the day when I was shooting Remingtons and Sewages I always found something wrong with their receiver tops. Either the scope base holes were drilled crooked or the receiver tops were poorly finished with too much metal removed by grinding or polishing. This causes a pic rail to bend when torqued down.

The solution was to bed the rail, but then I discovered that some rails were warped straight out of the box.

Even though we don’t need to lap rings because all the rings are supposedly perfect, if you torque a ring down on a warped rail the ring center will follow the direction of the bend in the rail. Then when you torque down a scope into that ring, the scope tube will conform to the bend in the rail. Then the scope will fail.

I suggest people purchase a nice straight steel ruler and put it to their rails and look for light shining through. There shouldn’t be any, else the rail is warped.

And for those who say quality rails aren’t warped, BS. Many are warped. I have used many Badger and TPS rails. The latter were shit. But even the Badgers were a little warped.

The best thing to do is to torque the rail to the receiver and check it with a ruler to see where you stand. Then you can decide if bedding is appropriate or if you need to replace the rail.

Or use the Burris Signature rings, as they compensate for any misalignment in the system.

I take that back. The best thing to do is to use a receiver with a machined in rail, like Surgeon or similar.

 

[chutinlead]

That should work. Not sure about the “Pro Series”, but Seekins Precission makes some of the higher end rings for Vortex Optics, like the PRECISION MATCHED rings. Seekins makes high quality rings. I have a set of both, 35mm Seekins, and 34mm Vortex (precission matched), identical except for scope diameter.

These rings, if placed on a good base, do not need to be lapped, just make sure you don’t mix up the two top pieces when installing (may not matter, but best not too).

I had a set of the Vortex(Seekins) PMR rings that came with a scope i bought, but they were extra highs and I needed lows. So I am going to try their new Pro Series rings. They run about half the price of PMR's, made in house by vortex, still made of 7075 AL, and have the torque specs on them. I don't mind lapping them as I have all the tools to do so and even a quick check with a lapping bar can help avoid a dented scope.

 

[Gar.]

I had a set of the Vortex(Seekins) PMR rings that came with a scope i bought, but they were extra highs and I needed lows. So I am going to try their new Pro Series rings. They run about half the price of PMR's, made in house by vortex, still made of 7075 AL, and have the torque specs on them. I don't mind lapping them as I have all the tools to do so and even a quick check with a lapping bar can help avoid a dented scope.

Sounds good. Let us know how they check out when ya get them.