Open Sights

AZgeek

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 30, 2014
870
414
Tucson AZ
Need to kick a friends ass out on the range. Battle will be done the old fashioned way with open sights out to 500 meters. Have my choice in guns - either 6.5 Grendel or a new AR10 I'm building. AR10 caliber TBD. Can anyone recommend a really good set AR15/10 sights I should consider.? Something totally adjustable/caliber specific would be the bomb!

Thx!
 
Either the LMT with NM guts, or a WOA NM carry handle. If you really want to beat him, get a sight like a Warner/Phoenix/Centra rear sight and a palma type front sight.

That’d be a killer iron sight rifle.
 
Hard to beat a pinned rear carry handle and a WOA post with a set screw from the underside.

If doing a custom barrel for AR10, have it left at .750 behind the muzzle then use a JP clamp on FSB (in addition to a low profile gas block)
 
  • Like
Reactions: MysizeisMAGNUM
Yes there are sports that share the iron sight handicap.
We don't see it as a handicap? Can't buy ability with irons, then again we are shooting a different game. Scope rifles is but one part of the shooting sports an many like me, are returning to our roots. People can invest whatever they want into whatever they please but when the fun is gone, it's time to retrace/revert to where the enjoyment was/is.
 
For sport it makes sense. It can be cheaper, it can be a challenge.

If you were doing something that prioritized field shooting at UKD in varying light conditions you would not be nearly effective with iron sights.
 
If you were doing something that prioritized field shooting at UKD in varying light conditions you would not be nearly effective with iron sights.
That depends upon your field-craft ability an knowing the weapon an sighting system it has, would it not? You see all kinds of guys who invest K's upon K's of dollars in gear, yet will not invest 1 thin dime in Field Craft, why because you can not buy in there.
 
All things being equal the shooters with optical sights will perform better. If you doubt, we can shoot in the woods behind my place 30 minutes after sundown. We will use OD shirts tacked to trees for targets.
 
No one shoots iron sights because it’s easier to hit things with optics.
.........under certain circumstances....yes.


transitioning between targets at distances from 10-400 yds.......ide choose iron sights.

low light under 300 yds......ide choose iron sights.

heavy rain......ide choose iron sights.

fast moving targets.....ide choose iron sights.

dangerous game hunting.....ide choose iron sights
 
.........under certain circumstances....yes.


transitioning between targets at distances from 10-400 yds.......ide choose iron sights.

low light under 300 yds......ide choose iron sights.

heavy rain......ide choose iron sights.

fast moving targets.....ide choose iron sights.

dangerous game hunting.....ide choose iron sights

You must have better night vision than anyone else.
 
@RyanScott

I don’t think anyone is saying irons are ALWAY better. Optics are fantastic tools, no doubt. However, the OP was asking for recommendation for iron sights though. So why interject the fact that optics help us see better? It is not relevant to the question asked in the OP.

His question specifically dealt with iron sights, lets try to show him relevant answers to his question.

I for one am glad he didn’t post another “what scope for $X”.
 
@RyanScott

I don’t think anyone is saying irons are ALWAY better. Optics are fantastic tools, no doubt. However, the OP was asking for recommendation for iron sights though. So why interject the fact that optics help us see better? It is not relevant to the question asked in the OP.

His question specifically dealt with iron sights, lets try to show him relevant answers to his question.

I for one am glad he didn’t post another “what scope for $X”.

I answered his iron sight question and then someone wanted to know why people didn’t use them anymore.
its amazing how well you can actually see in low light when you do it without preconceived prejudice.
When I was 18 it wasn’t as big a handicap as it is now. But it’s always a handicap.
 
Thanks again every one for your input. Not sure I have settled on an option for a modern day ar10 just yet. Been looking at an m14 or maybe a bm-59 in 308. Heck of an expensive route but the sights seem to provide every option I would need. Thoughts?
 
You've got to try really hard to make an M1A or BM59 as accurate as a thrown together large frame AR with a decent barrel and free float hand guard.

You can put a bloop tube and globe sights on an AR, the old iron is never going to catch up in accuracy.
 
M14 irons are sick and sexy rifles, and if you are ok with 2-2.5 MOA accuracy, I see no reason to get an AR10 style rifle.

But yeah without tuning them ($$$$$) they will not be as accurate as a basic AR10.
 
For sport it makes sense. It can be cheaper, it can be a challenge.

If you were doing something that prioritized field shooting at UKD in varying light conditions you would not be nearly effective with iron sights.

I think you would have benefitted from going through our SDM course back in the day. Before TRADOC got their mits on our work. Not knocking you, no, several snipers did it in fact (it's fun and it was a different course from sniping). We did KD and UKD with irons and ACOG's and scored both using a NM scheme. I've got the benefit of seeing hundreds of AR's fired by hundreds of "expert" (40/40 army standard) shooters. I know what they can do and what they can't do and exactly what the differences are between irons and ACOG. IME? Not much. The ACOG is better for quickly engaging a target and quickly determining approx. distance without looking up, but that's it really. I can actually fine tune irons to suit the conditions better provided I have good dope to go on, but they're a bit slower. That's why we use a "battle zero" of 300m, in a nutshell.

Of course to get good irons you've got to "fix the drum". The rear sight drum is fixed for either a 20" or a 14.5" usually and of a particular twist. It's also setup primarily for 300m zeros. First thing is to take it apart reset the drum. Bottoming it out should be your new 100m zero. You can use plastic or laminated paper or whatever, and make new markings to put on that drum later, ones that will have YOUR x meter (or yard) zeroes. But that comes later, after you spend time collecting dope so you know enough about how it shoots in order to do that. The front sight is a bit easier, just use the A2 fixed front with a NM thin, square post. NM rear sight helps; if any play is left between the sight block and the handle, you can shim it out with thin metal shims. Some have more play than others. If this is an iron sight only weapon, don't skimp on the sights and consider using a "bloop tube" --a non-threaded barrel extension used to extend sight radius past the "point minimal returns" wrt to barrel length and velocity. These types of front sights can be very high speed and expensive. Don't forget to lamp black all front sight posts and rear apertures prior to use. They sell it in a can but a dirty candle works just as well, maybe better.

Front sight on rail vs. barrel: in short, tubes have a bit of play and it's better to have a true fixed front sight vs. mounting one on a rail. Just a fact. Same as with flip sights, they just aren't the same animal (though KAC flip sights can be zeroed pretty damn close and within 300m always get the job done for me).

IME, optics cause more problems than they solve in shooters that haven't mastered the fundamentals. Also, again in my experience, I've seen it that those that are proficient with irons have less problems with optics, but not the other way around. Irons is to walking as scopes are to running; you wanna walk before you run.

Having a rifle that's dedicated to irons isn't a bad idea, I was gonna build a NM service rifle and never got around to it. Don't have time to "do it all" in life, you know? But I learned more about shooting using irons, really USING them than I ever did with an optic. For example, you can't go from 200 back to 600 and NOT make significant changes based on prior shooting, wind, etc., and expect to group well. You just can't.

I feel the same way about dope books, leather shooting slings, a thick glove and a jacket or sleeve and proper positions too. Fundamentals. Shit I feel should be taught somewhere in middle or early high school.

Good luck! And talk to some NM shooters if you can, those guys know all the best gear and tricks to use with irons.
 
Irons on a M14 were the best I'd ever shot, until I shot my first globe's. I love QD globes even with my old eyes, although I need glasses for reading my far away is still perfect, but have to concentrate a little more with the irons. Using the front sight as the range finder was second nature long ago, but this country has moved away from the knife fight mentality, that made us what we were.
 
Decided to go with this front sight. This way I can have elevation adjustment and use my flip-up troy battle sight in the rear; or I can use it with a typical ar15/10 handle rear sight for even better adjustability. A second dot would be ideal for holdover without touching anything. Any way off to finish my ar10 build. If I win this match I'll post, If not you will not here a peep!

1524929191855.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: PBWalsh
FYI. Got the front sight in today. It's fairly large and built like a tank! No worries about ever damaging it. Solid steel except of course for the insert. Put it on the gun just to see how everything lined up. Not sure if the riser under the rear sight is need but threw it on there just in case The lense on it has the medium size dot. Rest of the build parts will be here by Friday.

1525324757444.png


1525324853600.png
 
Had a chance to shoot out to 550 meters last weekend with this sight. With medium size red dot shown, I had a trouble getting precise aiming at that distance. Going to call them to see if they can make triangle version of an insert. I think that could really make a difference at these distances. Oh and my buddy was a no show and won by default. No one except my son noticed I had the rear sight on backwards in the pics!
 
  • Like
Reactions: PBWalsh