opiate thoughts

#6
There are several good documentaries on how it all started. One of the best by HBO, IIRC.

Companies realized that they could call pain a disease (instead of a symptom) and push doctors to treat pain instead of underlying causes. And they pushed opiates as safe, effective and non-addictive. Yeah, right.

Basically it was just legalizing heroin and making it acceptable to people who would never touch heroin…. And when prescription or insurance ran out… these new addicts went to the street.

People went to jail. By that I mean Pharma execs. Not enough of them. Millions of lives ruined and it’s still happening. Because fentanyl is right off the pharmacy shelves…. Thanks big pharma.

Sirhr
 
  • Like
Reactions: Camelfilter, roostercogburn98, Blue Sky Country and 4 others
#9
Doing anesthesia for a living I can tell you that the management of chronic pain is very complex. Yes pain is “usually” the symptom of some underlying condition…but that is not always the case. Sometimes surgical correction of the underlying cause of the pain isn’t an option. And living with chronic pain is a curse. Medications certainly have their usefulness…but they are not the saving grace.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Camelfilter, Jscb1b, TmisterE and 7 others
#10
Jigstick said:
Doing anesthesia for a living I can tell you that the management of chronic pain is very complex. Yes pain is “usually” the symptom of some underlying condition…but that is not always the case. Sometimes surgical correction of the underlying cause of the pain isn’t an option. And living with chronic pain is a curse. Medications certainly have their usefulness…but they are not the saving grace.
Click to expand...
Well said sir. To make a pun on @Redmanss post above, opiates are a 'tool', nothing more. If the tool is used wisely it can be of great benefit. Abused, it can create horrors as we now see.

I have a prescription for 4mg dilaudid to treat a couple childhood neck injuries. They give me 14 per month and I have some left over every month. Growing up in the 60's I've seen all too much addiction.

There are those who should never touch them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Blue Sky Country and sirhrmechanic
#13
Jigstick said:
Doing anesthesia for a living I can tell you that the management of chronic pain is very complex. Yes pain is “usually” the symptom of some underlying condition…but that is not always the case. Sometimes surgical correction of the underlying cause of the pain isn’t an option. And living with chronic pain is a curse. Medications certainly have their usefulness…but they are not the saving grace.
Click to expand...

Agree 100 Percent. But this is only a fraction of the millions who were needlessly (endlessly?) prescribed.

And the doctors who were massively bonus, and in many cases incentivized to keep prescribing.

There is totally a need for pain, relief, including using opiates. But what some in the pharmacy industry did was utterly deplorable.

Cheers!
 
  • Like
  • Angry
Reactions: Camelfilter, Jscb1b, Blue Sky Country and 3 others
#14
sirhrmechanic said:
m.imdb.com

The Crime of the Century (TV Mini Series 2021) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Crime

1h 56m | TV-MA
m.imdb.com m.imdb.com

Watch this.. I am sure you can find a place to stream it free.

Sickening to see how blatant it was and is.

Sirhr
Click to expand...
Agreed. This was one was very well done also.

www.hulu.com

Dopesick

From Executive Producer Danny Strong and starring and executive produced by Michael Keaton, “Dopesick” examines how one company triggered the worst drug epidemic in American history. The series takes viewers to the epicenter of America’s struggle with opioid addiction, from the boardrooms of Big...
www.hulu.com www.hulu.com
 
#15
I don't not subscribe to the idea for one moment that any doctor told any patient that opiates weren't addictive, nor that anyone would have attempted to sell that to any Dr. They aren't that dumb. We've known that opiates were addictive for over a thousand years.

This entire premise is based on the lawyers filing the lawsuits. It's a brilliant populist idea. You disavow the junkie from their actions, because... they didn't know that eating 13 perccocet a day would lead to an addiction, and their Dr, who gave them a 2 week prescription of 28 pills, three years earlier for an injury can't be held responsible, because nobody told them that opiates were addictive, (except their entire medical school, every year of their residency, and their career), and places the blame squarely on big pharma, who we all hate. Nobody ever told anyone that opiates weren't addictive, and you don't start buying heroin from Juan on second street because you sprained your ankle once and took pain pills for 2 weeks and then you were hopelessly addicted.

It's all bullshit.

And I had a monthly perccocet prescription from the VA for 8 years myself, and then I finally realized that it was stupid and I stopped taking them. Had about 3 rough nights and never looked back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Camelfilter, oneshot86 and W54/XM-388
#16
mosin46 said:
i have some experience in this area and the following is def food for thought.

brownstone.org

Empowered by the State, Condemned by the Crisis: The Purdue Paradox ⋆ Brownstone Institute

The government’s blind spot in fostering addiction treatment models fueled by profit underscores its failure to protect its citizens.
brownstone.org brownstone.org
Click to expand...
For many, many years doctors dramatically under treated their patients pain and it was proved to be detrimental to the patients health/recovery.

So, then the pendulum swung the other way and doctors started giving narcs out like candy with the resultant fucking mess we are all familiar with.

Now the pendulum has swung back and doctors are terrified of the DEA so patients need to suck up the pain, for the most part.

Assholes can never just hit the happy medium.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ben Dover, UKDslayer, Camelfilter and 5 others
#17
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
I don't not subscribe to the idea for one moment that any doctor told any patient that opiates weren't addictive, nor that anyone would have attempted to sell that to any Dr. They aren't that dumb. We've known that opiates were addictive for over a thousand years.

This entire premise is based on the lawyers filing the lawsuits. It's a brilliant populist idea. You disavow the junkie from their actions, because... they didn't know that eating 13 perccocet a day would lead to an addiction, and their Dr, who gave them a 2 week prescription of 28 pills, three years earlier for an injury can't be held responsible, because nobody told them that opiates were addictive, (except their entire medical school, every year of their residency, and their career), and places the blame squarely on big pharma, who we all hate. Nobody ever told anyone that opiates weren't addictive, and you don't start buying heroin from Juan on second street because you sprained your ankle once and took pain pills for 2 weeks and then you were hopelessly addicted.

It's all bullshit.

And I had a monthly perccocet prescription from the VA for 8 years myself, and then I finally realized that it was stupid and I stopped taking them. Had about 3 rough nights and never looked back.
Click to expand...
You're contradicting yourself, OR, I'm reading this wrong.

I can honestly tell you, that the 2 Percocet's that they were giving me, every 2 hours, for MONTHS whilst I was living in the hospital because of the accident.... ARE absolutely 'addictive'. And each and every time I asked the nurses AND the doctors who were prescribing them, (2004) they ALL said that they are non-addictive. Way-cool-more-gooder nowadays, type-of-thing.

Actually, I learned very quickly (through 3 days of massive withdrawl) that quitting cold turkey when I got out of the hospital by simply not getting the script filled,,,, I figured "all will be fine", right?

Believe me when I say, IT WASN'T.

I also learned right then and there that I never want that stuff again. This story also gets deeper, worser, and tangential'er.... but yeah... the medical system up here were all fine/well/and good with throwing Oxy at anything and everything 'for the pain'. With everyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thejeep
#18
Jigstick said:
Doing anesthesia for a living I can tell you that the management of chronic pain is very complex. Yes pain is “usually” the symptom of some underlying condition…but that is not always the case. Sometimes surgical correction of the underlying cause of the pain isn’t an option. And living with chronic pain is a curse. Medications certainly have their usefulness…but they are not the saving grace.
Click to expand...

Maggot said:
Well said sir. To make a pun on @Redmanss post above, opiates are a 'tool', nothing more. If the tool is used wisely it can be of great benefit. Abused, it can create horrors as we now see.

I have a prescription for 4mg dilaudid to treat a couple childhood neck injuries. They give me 14 per month and I have some left over every month. Growing up in the 60's I've seen all too much addiction.

There are those who should never touch them.
Click to expand...
In my teens and early to mid 20s, I saw first-hand how devastating the effects of opioid addiction were. Heroin, oxy, morphine, and whatever else folks could get their hands on. Heroin was the dirty little secret of our county, that eventually made local news. And for me, it was a "duh" moment, because I had already seen it destroy people's lives.

In college I made a friend who had a raging oxy addiction, though he was blessed with family wealth to afford it. But he still lost his spot on a college Blue Blood basketball team, was the black sheep of the family and had to live the life of an addict. We lost touch but I believe that his 3rd attempt at getting clean finally did the trick.

In June of 2022 I was in a serious motorcycle accident, with significant injuries. I was on buckets of IV Dilaudid and Fentanyl for pain control and oral vicodin. And laying there bed ridden and with fancy new structural upgrades, I thought about those people I used to know and what destruction opiates brought to their lives.

13 days post accident, I decided to voluntarily discontinue all opiate painkillers. I knew that the longer I stayed on them, the higher the risk for dependence and I had already enough mountains to climb. The doctors and nurses were shocked, kept asking if I was sure, continued offering them every few hours and asking "aren't you in pain?" "doesn't it hurt?"

I stuck to my guns --I can have a terrible stubborn streak-- and to this day I'm convinced that's one of the absolute best decisions I've ever made, and I'd do it again every time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HD1911 and Maggot
#19
I wish I had not looked in this thread. Now, I have to share the burden of my useless trivia.

I have read so many memoirs of musicians. I read the memoirs of James "Maynard" Keenan. It's almost like he accidentally stepped into the Tool thing.

Anyway, he was a high school athlete and lettered in track. Studied hard. For some reason, he joined the Army and tested high on the ASVAB. And got a recommendation to West Point. He passed his classes and graduated and was ready to receive his officer's commission. At the last moment, he declined. He realized then that while it was great to achieve the most you want to achieve, make sure it is the job you really want. And a life in the Army was not for him. So, he left West Point and left the Army as an enlisted man.

Many years later on tour with Tool, James would take tours of vineyards in Italy and France. And California.

Finally, he settled on a property in Arizona that has caliche soil that he thought was great and he bought some grapevines and literally built his own vineyard by hand.

He may seem crazy but, to quote Matt Damon doing a Boston southie accent, "He's wicked Smaht!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Redmanss and Maggot
#20
My only experience with "opioids" was the cough syrup my PCP had prescribed for me when I always presented a "common cold" to him.

At first, he prescribed "Tussionex Penkenetic" syrup (Ext. release Hydrocodone). A Schedule II Narc. Only 1 Teaspoon per 12 hours. I took one dose of it and never took another. It had me reeling. That, and Narcs in general tend to make one a whole lot more constipated than necessary.

So, the next time I presented with a cold, (and BTW, I never went to the doctor with only a cold, it was for some other reason... I just happened to have one at the time) he prescribed something a bit easier on the system called "Histussin HC" syrup. A Schedule III Narc. I used to love that stuff. Definitely not as harsh as Tussionex, etc. I ended up saving it and the refills. It turned out to be a decent sleep aid as wel. But eventually, they came down on my PCP for prescribing it too much so he could only offer a non narcotic substitute that just didn't work as well. Not at all. Ah well. I didn't blame my PCP. I knew they were cracking down on that. All that happening while I was still in the PRNJ. Fughettaboutit upon moving to FL. I would never see that stuff again. This after the "pharmacy/opoid" wars they had down here.

Today, I'm proud to say that I haven't touched a controlled substance since I moved down here in 2015. And I never will. I'll just "take the pain." I do not want to have to say "yes' on that 4473.
 
#21
Sean the Nailer said:
You're contradicting yourself, OR, I'm reading this wrong.

I can honestly tell you, that the 2 Percocet's that they were giving me, every 2 hours, for MONTHS whilst I was living in the hospital because of the accident.... ARE absolutely 'addictive'. And each and every time I asked the nurses AND the doctors who were prescribing them, (2004) they ALL said that they are non-addictive. Way-cool-more-gooder nowadays, type-of-thing.

Actually, I learned very quickly (through 3 days of massive withdrawl) that quitting cold turkey when I got out of the hospital by simply not getting the script filled,,,, I figured "all will be fine", right?

Believe me when I say, IT WASN'T.

I also learned right then and there that I never want that stuff again. This story also gets deeper, worser, and tangential'er.... but yeah... the medical system up here were all fine/well/and good with throwing Oxy at anything and everything 'for the pain'. With everyone.
Click to expand...
You'll have to explain to me how I'm contradicting myself.

What i can tell you is that nobody told me that opiates weren't addictive. Since I was born after the viking raids in Europe, I knew what they were. If there's a contradiction, you'll have to tell me what it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oneshot86
#22
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
I don't not subscribe to the idea for one moment that any doctor told any patient that opiates weren't addictive, nor that anyone would have attempted to sell that to any Dr. They aren't that dumb. We've known that opiates were addictive for over a thousand years.

This entire premise is based on the lawyers filing the lawsuits. It's a brilliant populist idea. You disavow the junkie from their actions, because... they didn't know that eating 13 perccocet a day would lead to an addiction, and their Dr, who gave them a 2 week prescription of 28 pills, three years earlier for an injury can't be held responsible, because nobody told them that opiates were addictive, (except their entire medical school, every year of their residency, and their career), and places the blame squarely on big pharma, who we all hate. Nobody ever told anyone that opiates weren't addictive, and you don't start buying heroin from Juan on second street because you sprained your ankle once and took pain pills for 2 weeks and then you were hopelessly addicted.

It's all bullshit.

And I had a monthly perccocet prescription from the VA for 8 years myself, and then I finally realized that it was stupid and I stopped taking them. Had about 3 rough nights and never looked back.
Click to expand...
Total bull shit - execs and pharmaceutical sales reps have been found guilty for saying and publishing literature that stated their “synthetic “ products were not addictive.

And now one that it was strange that a small rural pharmacy- across the nation - a population of 1100 people getting 500 hundred thousand pills a months for years on end .

And doctors getting kick backs on every pill prescribed- try again some of us listened to the entire opioid trials .

They got rich put thousands and thousands in their grave ruined millions of families and thousands of communities but in the end pay a fine and put fentanyl on the streets and all is forgiven!
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Sean the Nailer
#23
If you haven't seen The Oxycontin Express, it is well worth finding.
Florida was the epicenter of the prescription opiate plague about 14 years ago, this documentary shed some serious light on the issue.
Back when journalists did journalism instead of political theater.
Years ago, when my middle daughter was pregnant, she was having debilitating back spasms.
The doctor prescribed her hydrocodone, of course he told her it was not addictive.
Luckily, I called her and spoke with her before she left the Doctors office. She ended up with tylenol three, which still has opiates, but in much smaller doses.
 
#24
to add on. my mother was a nurse when demerol came out with the advert that it wasn't addictive. i recall that was about the late 50s(?). it's as least as addictive as MS. when i started work it was about 70% of pain med orders. it's a horrib;e drug. taken off formulary most places. last i heard was still used in GI,pulm and PAR. been awhile for me so ??
then came talwin,stadol and nubaine. same claims but they are also addictive. also really bad drugs with frequent untoward side effects.

can't leave opiates for serious pain control. as above doctors are now afraid to treat serious pain adequately because of all the FDA/DEA bullshit.
i won't even bother with my rant about dentists.
 
#25
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
You'll have to explain to me how I'm contradicting myself.

What i can tell you is that nobody told me that opiates weren't addictive. Since I was born after the viking raids in Europe, I knew what they were. If there's a contradiction, you'll have to tell me what it is.
Click to expand...
Yes, they used to state, repeat, and rant loudly that "these things are NOT addictive..." Doctors and nurses both. I was in the hospital for months, (2 hospitals actually,,, I got moved to a federal hospital just after the first month) and those "health care professionals" also were telling me that the oxycodone in the percocets was NOT addictive.
 
#26
Sean the Nailer said:
Yes, they used to state, repeat, and rant loudly that "these things are NOT addictive..." Doctors and nurses both. I was in the hospital for months, (2 hospitals actually,,, I got moved to a federal hospital just after the first month) and those "health care professionals" also were telling me that the oxycodone in the percocets was NOT addictive.
Click to expand...
I'm not questioning anything you're saying, but nobody ever told me that opiates weren't addictive in my entire life. My wife (RN-BSN) worried about the opiates the VA sent me from the first bottle till the last. She told me for years that she didn't know how I would be able to handle withdrawals if they ever stopped prescribing them. I also grew up around addicts, so nobody had to tell 10 year old me that opiates were addictive, I knew. I knew pill addicts all of my life. I knew where that lead. Maybe I just had more and earlier exposure than the rest of you.

Every month when my prescription arrived, it had a huge packet of paperwork that talked about the danger of addiction to prescription opiates, over and over again. I just can't imagine anyone saying they aren't addictive with a straight face, and anyone who would have believed that bullshit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Camelfilter, AMGtuned and mosin46
#32
I don't need an expert to tell me that something hot, like fire, might hurt my skin. I don't need an expert to tell me something really cold might also hurt my skin. I also don't need an expert to tell me that something that makes me feel high might be bad for me, just like I don't need an expert to tell me that something that goes "boom" might be dangerous.

If you can't manage the things you put in your mouth, the things you touch, the things you stare at with your eyeballs, then I don't care how they harm you.

Stupidity is why we have labels on things, why we have more laws than we need, why we have to wait 8 months for a gun muffler! Personal responsibility is something we really need to work on as a society.

I'm not one bit sad that people jacked their lives up with drugs. People are smart enough to know better. We all make our own bed, so lay in it!

I'm glad doctors got kick backs for prescribing drugs, because capitalism WORKS! And fuck these same doctors now holding back these drugs fo legit patients now struggling with pain. It's not their fault retards couldn't manage pills!
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: Ben Dover, Camelfilter and Hecouldgoalltheway
#34
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said:
Had a pacemaker installed a month ago, was awake for the install, felt like he was sticking a fucking icepick in my chest.
hurt like hell for weeks still hurts. 0 pain meds offered; I am still pissed.
Click to expand...

I'm having ablation done tomorrow morning.
The doc insists I be put under for it.
I've had it before and I can tolerate the pain involved.

That's pretty shitty of your doc not giving you anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hecouldgoalltheway
#38
I'm sick of them too. Been putting it off for too long so it's time.

Had shoulders injected a couple of months ago.

Did branch blocks last month to see if the ablation was worth doing.
And then there's the bad knee. I think I tore the meniscus again...
 
#39
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said:
Had a pacemaker installed a month ago, was awake for the install, felt like he was sticking a fucking icepick in my chest.
hurt like hell for weeks still hurts. 0 pain meds offered; I am still pissed.
Click to expand...
Local lidocaine for the stitches, but zero pain meds in or after ER visit. I try my best to not use them, doc offered prescription and I declined
IMG_7813.jpeg
IMG_2961.jpeg
 
#43
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said:
been having that very thought.
Click to expand...
Brother....I've had 2 MI's and have 3 stents (though I'm VERY lucky and have normal heart function...normal ejection fraction).
When you show up in an ambulance at the ER, if you are like me, you aren't asking for the on-call cardiologist's referrals and Yelp reviews...right? haha

But he sucked...BIG TIME. Even the gals in the cardiac rehap (cardiac physiology techs) rolled their eyes when I mentioned his name.

I fired him...for good cause...and my current cardiologist is a fucking rock star.

Most people just defer to their doctors but they are not all created equal. If yours sucks, fire him and get another. And installing a pace make sans anything for pain/discomfort is total fucking BS. Maybe stick a knitting needle between his ribs and see how he like it...eh?

Cheers and best of luck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hecouldgoalltheway and Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
#44
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said:
Had a pacemaker installed a month ago, was awake for the install, felt like he was sticking a fucking icepick in my chest.
hurt like hell for weeks still hurts. 0 pain meds offered; I am still pissed.
Click to expand...
Looks like you had a moron working on you. Lot's of "Doctors" who took years to pass the exams and or horribly skipped through residency. As a Paramedic for 30 years with very limited ie; 2 years training, I had so many episodes of WTF with new ER "doctors" it was literally criminal. This is even worse today as DEI is pretty much in every medical school program in the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Milf Dots and Hecouldgoalltheway
#45
Mike Casselton said:
I'm having ablation done tomorrow morning.
The doc insists I be put under for it.
I've had it before and I can tolerate the pain involved.

That's pretty shitty of your doc not giving you anything.
Click to expand...
I had both knees done a couple years ago and it was a bitch. He said that it was the first time that he's done both knees in one session. It took about 24 hours to recover and well worth the pain relief I've had since then. The pain is now returning and I know when the weather is going to change again so I will get it done again next year.
 
  • Angry
  • Like
Reactions: mewillis and Hecouldgoalltheway
#46
Jigstick said:
Doing anesthesia for a living I can tell you that the management of chronic pain is very complex. Yes pain is “usually” the symptom of some underlying condition…but that is not always the case. Sometimes surgical correction of the underlying cause of the pain isn’t an option. And living with chronic pain is a curse. Medications certainly have their usefulness…but they are not the saving grace.
Click to expand...
I lived in incredible pain for 35 years. It was only by some miracle I avoided, and never became addicted to opioids. I am now living in relatively pain free and it is nothing short of a miracle.

Pain is an insidious monster. I was lucky, I seemed to have a relatively high tolerance for chronic pain that seemed to grow as the pain grew. Many people are not blessed that way. Living in pain made my tolerance level go up and conversely living almost pain free has brought it way down. Pain that I would hardly notice now bothers me, on the rare days it pops up.

I feel for people who live in chronic pain and do not have a constitution that at least helps them bear the weight of it. For some people it simply steals their quality of life.

It is hard to believe with all our technology we have not done more medically to conquer and manage pain. Opioids seem tantamount to using ether as anesthesia for surgery. Is it the medical community’s addiction to pushing opioids that has kept us from further advancements? Sure appears that way to this layman…..
 
  • Like
Reactions: UKDslayer, mosin46 and Hecouldgoalltheway
#47
mewillis said:
Looks like you had a moron working on you. Lot's of "Doctors" who took years to pass the exams and or horribly skipped through residency. As a Paramedic for 30 years with very limited ie; 2 years training, I had so many episodes of WTF with new ER "doctors" it was literally criminal. This is even worse today as DEI is pretty much in every medical school program in the world.
Click to expand...
I think I had the last American cardiologist and that sonofabich retired at the begining of all this when it started in July. He turned me over to a non-american sounding last name guy. Have had thoughts of just accepting my fate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ben Dover
#48
Bullfrog08 said:
I don't need an expert to tell me that something hot, like fire, might hurt my skin. I don't need an expert to tell me something really cold might also hurt my skin. I also don't need an expert to tell me that something that makes me feel high might be bad for me, just like I don't need an expert to tell me that something that goes "boom" might be dangerous.

If you can't manage the things you put in your mouth, the things you touch, the things you stare at with your eyeballs, then I don't care how they harm you.

Stupidity is why we have labels on things, why we have more laws than we need, why we have to wait 8 months for a gun muffler! Personal responsibility is something we really need to work on as a society.

I'm not one bit sad that people jacked their lives up with drugs. People are smart enough to know better. We all make our own bed, so lay in it!

I'm glad doctors got kick backs for prescribing drugs, because capitalism WORKS! And fuck these same doctors now holding back these drugs fo legit patients now struggling with pain. It's not their fault retards couldn't manage pills!
Click to expand...
You really don't know what you're talking about.

In truth, I Pray that you never do actually learn the hard way. I don't wish that on anyone, and yes, I'm speaking from personal experience. You may very well not think that's the way things are,,, but they do.

That, and the fact that there's a hemispherical difference between "dependency" and "addiction".

Merry Christmas

Lets all move on to bigger/badder/better things to talk about. Maybe we'll get somewhere.
 
#50
Sean the Nailer said:
You really don't know what you're talking about.

In truth, I Pray that you never do actually learn the hard way. I don't wish that on anyone, and yes, I'm speaking from personal experience. You may very well not think that's the way things are,,, but they do.

That, and the fact that there's a hemispherical difference between "dependency" and "addiction".

Merry Christmas

Lets all move on to bigger/badder/better things to talk about. Maybe we'll get somewhere.
Click to expand...
I took opiods for three years after I broke my neck in 2007. When I got it all sorted, I just stopped taking them. Took as prescribed every 6 hours, and quit when shit got fixed, so not a thing!

Does that make me qualified to speak on the subject, or are you inferring something else? Not being an ass, but drugs are like life.....make hard good decisions and you can do anything.

People are just weak, and take the easy road.

Im all for making all drugs legal, we can thin out the shit people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AMGtuned and Hecouldgoalltheway
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Death From A Distance
Pritzker Bashes Trump Order On Birthright Citizenship
Replies
45
Views
1K
918v
918v
PatMiles
Police Arrest TikTok ‘Prankster’ For Spraying Poison All Over Food in Walmart, Causing $1 Million in Damage, Posting Video of Crime to Social Media.
Replies
19
Views
1K
XikoPlavi
XikoPlavi
Death From A Distance
Harriet Tubman Posthumously Named A General In Veterans Day Ceremony
Replies
5
Views
298
sirhrmechanic
sirhrmechanic
PatMiles
CO Gov., Harris Surrogate: People Say Migrant Surge Lowered Crime, But We Need to Fix Border ‘Crisis’
Replies
13
Views
369
BCP
BCP
nikonNUT
Gunsmithing Getting heavy carbon build up off an SD barrel?
Replies
15
Views
393
nikonNUT
nikonNUT
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts