opinions, everyone has one, and I want to hear it.

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Sojurn

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Minuteman
Sep 21, 2011
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MN
#1
I'm looking for my next project. I want what I'm willing to call a Precision Rifle. I'd like to have a "thousand yard gun", but I live in northern Minnesota where 400 yards is a long shot. My experience is largely with ARs, and mine is averaging .5 to .75 moa with hand loads, but it's 5.56. I want more.

I've wanted a 6.5 Grendel for some time but not if it's going to average 2400 to 2500 fps with a 123 grain bullet. Also I'm wondering what the brass life is like for these in semi autos.

I'm also considering a bolt gun. The 6.5CM looks promising, but what gun? I don't want to change barrels or bottom metal. The stock I'm willing/kind of wanting to glass bed (sounds fun) but that's about at much as I want to do.
So an out of the box accurate rifle is what I'm interested in.

I've been avoiding the .308, only because it's common. Not for any real logical reason, and I could be talked into it.

I just want some thoughts, a think tank more or less. All opinions welcome, let's hear it.

Also, if like to keep the rifle / upper around $1500.
 
#4
Tikka T3 Sporter Rifle - Tikka Sporter - for sale!

The T3 sporter has a heavy barrel and comes with a nice (but wood)(but very orange) stock. You can get it in .308 or .260 or 6.5x55

Also .223 but you seem to be set in that department.

PS the bolt release is hard to reach too. I actually kind of wish I'd bought one of these instead of my Remington 700, but the grass is always greener on the other side.
 
#13
Sounds like your a little all over the place and not really sure where you want to go, so lets brainstorm a bit. The 6mm cartridges offer a lot as far as good ballistics, but at 400 yards you will not really be taking much advantage of them. In addition 6mm's have short barrel life, and if you shoot a lot you will need to take that into consideration. Having said all that my recommendation is for the .308 for the following reasons:

1. I think everyone should own at least one .308, it is a classic cartridge that is still awesome.

2. It can take most game in North America, from a coyote to an Elk no problem.

3. Great round to learn to read wind.

4. Ammo is readily available almost anywhere, I'm surprised you can't buy them at 711.

5. It is a fairly inexpensive cartridge to buy or reload and has a ton of different bullet options available from 155gr. up to 208gr.

6. It's great for paper or steel and can reach out to 1,000 yards very comfortably. I was shooting my Gap 10 .308 at 800 to 1000 yards last weekend and killing it.

7. The .308 works great in both bolt action and AR-10 type gas guns. I prefer a gas gun in .308 and bigger calibers I go bolt gun.

8. Barrel life is probably in the 5,000 round range.

9. Their is tons of military surplus ammo if ya just want inexpensive practice rounds.

10. Recoil is very manageable especially in a gas gun.

I can't imagine not having a .308, it is my go to gun even over my Kac 5.56, because it shoots heavy bullets with enough velocity to hit hard. I prefer the 175's in my .308. I often feel that my 5.56 is kinda of a wimpy cartridge and going to a 120 or 130gr. bullet doesn't really excite me, when you hit steel with a .308 175gr. round you can hear that AR500 ring back even at 800 yards. Best of luck to you.
 
#16
I kept avoiding the 308 for a long time. I finally decided that IF/WHEN the shtf that the other ammo might be hard to come by. Maybe other people would drop some of their 308/7.62 ammo on the ground and I could just borrow some from them. Just something to think about.

G5guy
 
#18
Duluth is a little slim on longer ranges...
Northwestern is roughly 20 miles north of downtown Duluth and gets you to 500 yards. Haven't been there in a while, but their 3 gun events were always fun as well.

If you are willing to drive 1.5hrs Harris(GRRC) is the closest, to my knowledge, true 1K range to Duluth.
 
#20
OP..you need to hit the books, due to the fact you already disqualified the Grendel for it's so called 2400-2500mv tells me you know nothing of External Ballistics..Time to do your Homework son!
 
#22
The 2500 fps number come from the books. And some reports I read in here. If I can sling a bullet with a .510bc at 2700, then I'm interested, depending on the brass life. I have no experience with the round, hence me asking for opinions.
 
#23
Sojurn said:
The 2500 fps number come from the books. And some reports I read in here. If I can sling a bullet with a .510bc at 2700, then I'm interested, depending on the brass life. I have no experience with the round, hence me asking for opinions.
Click to expand...

I know guys who have gotten 20+ reloads with Lapua 6.5 Grendel Brass and never Annealed them.

At 0.510BC comparing a 123gr projectile with a MV of 2700 fps to a MV of 2450 fps you're only looking at difference of 150 yards in respect to minimum sonic range.

Hornady Factory 123gr Amax from a 24" barrel runs in the 2650 fps range +- 25 fps.
 
#26
Like i said OP..Homework

I have two Grendels a JP and a Les Bear LBC and both are hammers.

Here are the Pros and Cons.

PROS:

Every Grendel i've owned has been 1/2 MOA or Less, plus the 123 AMAX has a high BC at .510

Same price to build as a .223/5.56

Small From AR (easier to drive)

light weight

Cheap as fuck to reload.. For my everyday load I use 123 SMK, followed by 28.1 grns of TAC, and Tula Primers That's about .53 cents per round to Reload.

1000+yrds maximum effective range

Outstanding Brass life

Barrel life+ Over 5000rds

CONS:

Some Assholes load them to hot and experience Bolt Failure.
 
#27
It sounds like you are primarily interested in target shooting at extended ranges, I don't see mention of hunting? If that is correct and you really like the AR, the Grendel does sound pretty good. Also, you might consider the 6 Hagar as it is based on the 6.8 case and therefore not as much of the bold is cut away. I believe either woudl do a rine job for you, although as mentioned above unless you are shooting past 600 yds it is really hard to beat a good .223 (probably a Wylde chamber) with fast rifling able to shoot heavier bullets. I have a rather plane jane 20" DPMS that shoots 70 gr Bergers sub MOA all the way out to 600.
 
#28
Hornady Factory 123gr Amax from a 24" barrel runs in the 2650 fps range +- 25 fps.
Click to expand...

Hornady site(link) lists 2580 from a 24".
Is Hornady really under rating their load by 70 fps? Why?

I get that Hornady uses the 24" to keep things consistent, but I don't see why anyone would actually use it in 24" barrel. Let's be realistic, the whole benefit behind the Grendel is you can run it in the classic AR frame so you're saving weight/size vs a large frame AR. If you're going to be running a 24" barrel chasing velocity, at that point you might as well run a large frame and sling 6.5's even faster... imho of course.
 
Last edited:
#30
Sojurn said:
Any idea what a 20 inch gun would get me? Thanks for the info.
Click to expand...

My 16" was averaged 2450 fps after 30 rounds of Amax last weekend. Scratch that, the weekend before last.

You'll be looking at somewhere around 2550 fps. All barrels are different some faster some slower. Mine was a Bartlein from Mark at Precision Firearms.

It's generally a 25 fps difference per inch.

Oh and whatever you do, don't buy the bullshit about the liberty barrels being faster. It's due to a crap, unsafe chamber.
 
Last edited:
#31
goosed said:
Hornady site(link) lists 2580 from a 24".
Is Hornady really under rating their load by 70 fps? Why?

I get that Hornady uses the 24" to keep things consistent, but I don't see why anyone would actually use it in 24" barrel. Let's be realistic, the whole benefit behind the Grendel is you can run it in the classic AR frame so you're saving weight/size vs a large frame AR. If you're going to be running a 24" barrel chasing velocity, at that point you might as well run a large frame and sling 6.5's even faster... imho of course.
Click to expand...

Every barrel is different. It's not uncommon to see a variance of 50 fps from the same batch of barrels. That number is very possible from the barrel they used, the ambient temperature also plays a role in MV.
 
#33
This was a very informative post. I don't know much about the grendal aside from some of the negative misconception that was cleared up here. I think I'm going to do some more research into possibly building an upper down the road.
 
#34
goosed said:
Hornady site(link) lists 2580 from a 24".
Is Hornady really under rating their load by 70 fps? Why?

I get that Hornady uses the 24" to keep things consistent, but I don't see why anyone would actually use it in 24" barrel. Let's be realistic, the whole benefit behind the Grendel is you can run it in the classic AR frame so you're saving weight/size vs a large frame AR. If you're going to be running a 24" barrel chasing velocity, at that point you might as well run a large frame and sling 6.5's even faster... imho of course.
Click to expand...

They also list 14.5" velocity and call it 16" on their site. Not a big deal, but that's what it is. I get 2450-2460fps with the factory Hornady 123gr A-MAX and SST from a 16" Grendel. When I clocked it from one of the new Lilja 20" barrels, I got 2602fps with the 123gr SST, and I actually place the chronograph out to 15ft unlike many people.

From a 24", CFE will give you 2700fps with most rifles and 123gr. It easily gives me 2550fps with a 16" Grendel, and that's staying 100fps away from where I saw ever so slight cratering up at 2650fps. An 18" can be loaded to 2600fps comfortably in most cases, and still stay away from crazy pressures.

For Northern Minnesota, there isn't a reason to need low .260 speeds. I also have a .260 Remington, which is really great for beyond 1000yds for me up in these elevations in the Rocky Mountain region. My 16" Grendel really surprised me at 1200yds with factory 123gr A-MAX, and was dead-on like my program said, using accurate atmospheric data for temp and pressure.

For economy, ease of purchase, and external ballistics from an AR15, the Grendel is really hard to beat. I'll probably never own another .308 because of it, with the exception being an original Armalite AR10 made in Holland for collection purposes.

There are at least 31 factory loads for the Grendel, and it takes so little powder on the bench if you hand load.
 
#35
Yeah, I almost forgot... Hornady is clueless. They have absolutely no idea the "average" uninformed consumer will choose one brand of ammo over another for something as stupid as 10fps. With Hornady being so oblivious it completely makes sense they would use the far less popular(whole SBR permit thing) 14.5" barrel for their published info instead of using the wildly more popular 16". Even worse they then list their 14.5" data as coming from a 16" barrel. Good thing there are "informed" consumers to set the record straight or I might have believed Hornady and my reloading manuals. Now I know not to believe those silly books, Thank you! **sigh**

Every part of each weapon system will vary slightly from another, I believe it's called tolerances, and atmospheric conditions will cause individual mileage to vary. Chrono's also have tolerances and can vary by a large margin in my experience. The Grendel is a great round and fills the gap nicely between 5.56 and 308 nicely, but it's not magical. Expecting roughly 2700 fps out of 24" with 28-30gr of powder seems highly ambitious from a factory rifle, imo, but don't let me stand in the way. By all means feel free to reach for the stars.
 
#36
I built my Grendel AR from the ground up. I have about $1800.00 into the gun with optics. I am running a 18 inch barrel and I have had no problems holding less than 1/2 MOA out to 600 yds and I am far from a skilled shooter. Would love to be able to shoot longer distance but Northwest Ohio is not the place for that. If you are looking at the Grendel for hunting, it is just as effective as anything else I have used. I have dropped deer in their tracks at 300 yds.

Noveske Barrel
Youngs Manufacturing lower
Cmmg lower parts kit
Leupold VX3


Nothing spectacular but it works for me and I have room for improvement. The Grendel in and AR platform is a great way to go.
 
#37
Reck18 said:
I built my Grendel AR from the ground up. I have about $1800.00 into the gun with optics. I am running a 18 inch barrel and I have had no problems holding less than 1/2 MOA out to 600 yds and I am far from a skilled shooter. Would love to be able to shoot longer distance but Northwest Ohio is not the place for that. If you are looking at the Grendel for hunting, it is just as effective as anything else I have used. I have dropped deer in their tracks at 300 yds.

Noveske Barrel
Youngs Manufacturing lower
Cmmg lower parts kit
Leupold VX3


Nothing spectacular but it works for me and I have room for improvement. The Grendel in and AR platform is a great way to go.
Click to expand...

I didn't know there were Novekse Grendels out in the wild. How did you pull that?
 
#40
If you are worried about the performance of the 6.5 Grendel A-Max 123gr bullet don't be. Here is a 100 and 200 yard group with Hornady factory loads. I am not a precision shooter by any means. I just like to plink a little.
100 yards I rushed the 5th shot which pissed me off. LOL

200 yards again I only shoot about once a month if that.


I have shot a few sub 4 inch groups out to 500yrds so it is capable. Sorry no pics but hope to do it again soon.
 
#41
I have a savage 12 lrp 6.5 creedmoor in layaway. It is also available in 260 and 243 I believe. Heard great reviews so I jumped on a good deal. Comes in an HS Precision stock that would be a solid vessel for glass bedding. They can be had for around $900. Less in my case. So that would leave you a decent amount of funding for glass.
 
#42
Sojurn said:
I'm looking for my next project. I want what I'm willing to call a Precision Rifle. I'd like to have a "thousand yard gun", but I live in northern Minnesota where 400 yards is a long shot. My experience is largely with ARs, and mine is averaging .5 to .75 moa with hand loads, but it's 5.56. I want more.

I've wanted a 6.5 Grendel for some time but not if it's going to average 2400 to 2500 fps with a 123 grain bullet. Also I'm wondering what the brass life is like for these in semi autos.

I'm also considering a bolt gun. The 6.5CM looks promising, but what gun? I don't want to change barrels or bottom metal. The stock I'm willing/kind of wanting to glass bed (sounds fun) but that's about at much as I want to do.
So an out of the box accurate rifle is what I'm interested in.

I've been avoiding the .308, only because it's common. Not for any real logical reason, and I could be talked into it.

I just want some thoughts, a think tank more or less. All opinions welcome, let's hear it.

Also, if like to keep the rifle / upper around $1500.
Click to expand...

Opinions
Hornady Creedmoor is accurate but the brass is soft and wont last long.
Bolt gun will be easier to shoot accurately at long range for most people.
Bolt gun will be cheaper.
Savage with a after market trigger and barrel will still cost less than $1500
Shoot 155s out of the 308 or 130-140 out of a 260, 105s out of a 243.
If it was me shooting paper I would choose a 243 for light recoil and better ballistics than the 308, 260, or Grendel.
 
#43
bustin makes a good point. 243 is an incredible round and is very hard to beat in the long range precision game. If a heavy barrel is what you're after, then the LRP as well as the Rem 700 sps varmint would be excellent choices. The savage having the better stock and accu-trigger. It's also ~50% more expensive. About $600 for the sps and $900 for the LRP. I have the sps in 243 and can't wait to get my hands on the LRP. :) Looking forward to a heads up dual.
 
#45
I changed my bolt gun to 6.5 Creedmoor, for the only reason that 7.62/.308 reloading componants were really hard to come by, and that .308 Match rounds were getting way too expensive. I really did not save much in price doing this, but the 6.5 componants are easier to get. That being said, I never owned a more accurate gun in my life. It is flat shooting, bucks wind like anything, and as someone said on one of these posts, it is "boringly accurate" out to 1000 yds.
My friend ownd a DPMS Panther in 6.5 Creedmoor, and kept right up with me. I think that is your answer if you wish to keep an AR based platform.
I do like the AR based platform, or at least the pistol grip portion of it, so my Remy in 6.5 has a AICS 1.5 Chassis under it. I've never looked back.
 
#46
russ10x said:
I changed my bolt gun to 6.5 Creedmoor, for the only reason that 7.62/.308 reloading componants were really hard to come by, and that .308 Match rounds were getting way too expensive. I really did not save much in price doing this, but the 6.5 componants are easier to get. That being said, I never owned a more accurate gun in my life. It is flat shooting, bucks wind like anything, and as someone said on one of these posts, it is "boringly accurate" out to 1000 yds.
My friend ownd a DPMS Panther in 6.5 Creedmoor, and kept right up with me. I think that is your answer if you wish to keep an AR based platform.
I do like the AR based platform, or at least the pistol grip portion of it, so my Remy in 6.5 has a AICS 1.5 Chassis under it. I've never looked back.
Click to expand...


T7yEk74l.jpg
 
#47
if looking at an AR platform, get a DPMS LR in 6.5 creedmoor and be done with it, got mine for like $1050 out the door, still leaves money left from your $1500 to upgrade the trigger/hand guard/stock if u want...mine shoots hornady and winchester factory ammo as good as anyone could shoot it
 
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