Opinions on first build

[earthtrekker1775]

I'm a new member here but I have been lurking for months. Definitely seems like the right group of people to ask about custom build options.

I am currently getting a custom project underway I would like opinions on pros and cons, considerations, potential issues, etc.

Here are the details:

Surgeon short action repeater
KMW bolt knob
Kreiger MTU 24"CM 1:10 in .308 -Threaded-
Vortex flash suppressor (undecided)
DD Ross M1 short action bottom metal
McMillan A1-3 stock, sniper fill, flush cups and swivels, bipod ready
marbled- 40% med. tan, 30% olive, 20% black, 10% woodland beige
Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x50 F1 w/ zero stop and ultralight rings
Harris BRM-S w/ KMW pod lock
Tactical intervention QC2 sling
Eagle ind. stock pack
decelerator recoil pad for now.

Does anyone have experience with the Vortex flash supressor on a bolt gun? Smith enterprise claims an increase in accuracy but I want to be sure that there will be no detriment to group size.
Any opinions or advice welcome. Thanks

Will post plenty of pics when I get it.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Opinions on first build

I wouldn't use DD Ross BM, either Badger M4 or even better the M5 detachable mag system.

I also wouldn't use a flash suppressor on a bolt rifle, what's the point?

Is the barrel CM? I'd switch that to SS in a heartbeat.

Oh...and I'd fill out my profile with my location, but that's just me....I'm just saying....Boltripper will be here soon.

 

[OFIS]

Re: Opinions on first build

whats the beef with the ross floorplate? first the marines drop them, now custom builds...just cant seem to get it right?

maybe you mean muzzle break, not flash suppressor...if i were going to brake id go for the ops-inc.

 

[Graham]

Re: Opinions on first build

+1 on what Jason says: I would think about Badger bottom metal, SS bbl., and no brake or flash hider on a .308 with that contour of bbl; but that's just me. I wouldn't necessarily start with a Surgeon, either.

More importantly, I would think more about WHY I need SS over chrome-moly, WHY I don't want something threaded to the muzzle, WHY I do or don't want a detachable mag system, and WHY I want that particlular stock and set-up that way (as opposed to a different stock set-up differently).

In short: Looking at your list I see many popular and expensive name-brand parts, but no well-defined role for the rifle.

Beyond that, a lot of what you have listed is a matter of personal preference. For example, I like MTU contour, but not in the A1 or T3's. I like a decelerator pad, but only on a fixed stock when I know the compromise length of pull at which I am most comfortable.

Your description asks more questions than it answers: For example, for position work the A1-3 is nice but an MTU contour is not; WHY are you combining the two? Or, if you don't NEED a stock pack with that scope/stock/rings combo, why do you list one? And WHAT flush cups - how many, where, and for what reason? What is your measured length of pull? Does it change in any way? How does your eye-relief change when you transition from standing to prone? Does that matter to your stock/scope/ring choice?

So, if you have a REASON for why you want the rifle set up that way, or why you want that particular sling, or to have a 1 in 10 instead of 1 in 11 twist, then noboby else's opinion should matter.

But, if you have that kind of money, and don't want to wait a year and a half for a build that won't excel at any one task, then buy an all-arounder: an AE or an AW. Have someone at AI help you set it up, then use it for five or ten years until you know, specifically, what you want that your AI won't give you.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Re: Opinions on first build

Thank you all very much for your input and Graham, thanks for the time and thought you gave to your response.

I have a couple of questions and then I will try to rationalize a few of my decisions.

1. What if anything is the drawback of using DD Ross? One piece, well built and finished BM from what I have read/heard. Badger is also very good but has been getting a reputation for very sharp edges (not certain of the validity of that issue). Granted I have not held either but I want a solid piece made from steel.

2. Why SS? I decided on CM from Krieger because they suggest their SS barrels not be used below 0F. I will be moving west and north in a couple years and do not want the barrel steel to be a limiting factor of when/where I can shoot. Are there any reasons for SS other than ease of care?

3. The MTU contour barrel - what are the issues? Is it just too heavy? I have not decided on length yet, but I know I want the barrel no shorter than 20" and no longer than 24". I am leaning toward 24".

Now, my thought process.
I am not a trained sniper and I do not attest to having their skills, nor do pretend to be a tactical guru. I do however want a rifle put together to suit me, from some of the better components available, not so I can beat my chest at the range, but that I might have confidence in my equipment and no excuses.
I do want an all around rifle capable of urban and conventional battlefield application. Most of the deer hunting I do is over rolling hills on open farmland weight is not a huge issue. I want the rifle to be capable up to 1000m, I will be shooting 168 gr. and 175 gr match ammo. I do not reload.

The A1-3 stock is ideal for me because it fits, and corrects the few issues I had with the HTG. The flush cups will be 2 in number and left side mounted. The decelerator pad is fine for now because it fits my length of pull. The sling choice because it seems very functional, I often shoot with hasty or loop sling and do not want to be completely reliant on a bipod or ruck.

The scope/rings combo should work well, the stock pack will probably not be necessary I will wait to see.

I like a good heavy barrel contour but if not MTU, which contour would you suggest for this stock, scope, and intended purpose?

Thanks again for the great input.

I have been shooting a Rem 700 PSS with Leupold VXIII 4.5-14x40 mil dot for years and I don't want to buy another interim rifle. I am looking to build the ideal tool for me. Money and time have been taken into consideration.

I look forward to your answers.

 

[CWSShooter]

Re: Opinions on first build

Sound like a nice first build. I do have a Vortex that was spec for the M40 in dia. and I have had no problems with it. It works well in low light and it beat's the hell out of a thread protector. Good luck with you build.

 

[marku]

Re: Opinions on first build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vortex flash suppressor (undecided)
DD Ross M1 short action bottom metal</div></div>

Please do not put that flash suppressor on it leave it off.
Go with the M5 unit from Badger other than that its all good

 

[marku]

Re: Opinions on first build

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What if anything is the drawback of using DD Ross? One piece, well built and finished BM from what I have read/heard. Badger is also very good but has been getting a reputation for very sharp edges (not certain of the validity of that issue). Granted I have not held either but I want a solid piece made from steel.

2. Why SS? I decided on CM from Krieger because they suggest their SS barrels not be used below 0F. I will be moving west and north in a couple years and do not want the barrel steel to be a limiting factor of when/where I can shoot. Are there any reasons for SS other than ease of care?</div></div>

Do a search on DD Ross! Ill take a Badger any day.

Thats the first ive ever head on Stainless? Rememeber a big percentage of barrel 99% are all on stainless. Even so id still go with stainless.

 

[USMCj]

Re: Opinions on first build

+1 on the SS barrel, and +1 on the Badger M5.

If you are going with the MTU, at least have it fluted to loose some weight.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Re: Opinions on first build

Thanks again, keep the great advice coming.

I have been tossing the idea back and forth about fluting the barrel, I may go that route. The stock has not been inletted yet so if you have a good alternate contour idea with solid reasoning I will definately consider it. I would like to stick with Krieger as they make an excellent product and they already have some of my money!

I am not personally a fan of box magazines on tactical bolt rifles (also, the mags are $$$ and though this is an expensive rifle build my wife is only so tolerant of my pricey gun habit) so I will stick with a hinged floorplate model. Is the M4 up to the same standards as the M5? Aside from BO, are there any other BM makers that stand above the crowd?

I may be convinced on SS
Most likely going to keep the MTU but may flute and finish at 22" I think that will maximize its potential for my purposes.

You all are a great help in getting my thoughts straight and keeping me from making a large, hurried investment. Any other thoughts please share them.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Re: Opinions on first build

I also looked at building my own from scratch.

Turns out there are a heap of factory rifles that will do what you are wanting to do, straight out of the box.
Tikka tactical in .308 sounds right for your application.

Swap the stock for something more beefier if you are fussy, and your done!

Hard pressed to get better value for money... im happy with mine in .300!

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Opinions on first build

"More beefier" than a McMillan A1-3? What did you have in mind?

As far as D. D. Ross goes, he has been getting a bad rap lately due to QC issues and poor service coming out of his shop. Badger bottom metal is probably the standard by which others are measured against. There are other quality manufacturer, some here on the Hide, but I don't have any personal experience with their products.

I think the issue with your choice of barrel contours would be clarified if you were more specific about your intended uses of the rifle. If you are planning to use it for hunting, then a lighter barrel contour would be preferable. There are many rifles out there with pencil-thin barrels that shoot consistently under 1/2 MOA, especially if you are having a smith true up the action. If you are planning to do extended strings of fire, then a heavier barrel will take longer to heat up and shot to shot consistency will be better. If you will be doing more bench or prone shooting, you may consider an A5 or A4 stock to go with the MTU contour.

Something else to consider: is your receiver cromoly or stainless? It has minimal effect, but all else being equal, having the same type of metal between barrel and receiver would be preferred. You can have galvanic corrosion issues when butting two different types of metal against each other. Ideally you would have a SS receiver and barrel--a little better corrosion resistance. Probably of minor importance though. Otherwise looks like some fine choices of components.

 

[omurnion]

Re: Opinions on first build

In my experiance SS breaks in easier, shots better and lasts longer. As far as accuracy when its cold I shoot mine at subzero with no problems. GAPrecision tried talking me into putting the M5 mag on my Surgeon, I wasn't a big fan of clips so I went with a Badger hinged floor plate. That is the only thing that I regret. I wish that I had the M5. As far as strenght goes, with that action and a Mcmillian stock your not going to have any problems, unless your pounding fence posts with it.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Re: Opinions on first build

Thanks John, I appreciate the heads up. I had looked around but did not find any specific issues mentioned about DD Ross, good to get some clarification.

As far as barrel purpose, I will hunt with it but most shooting will be field and range, prone, bench and sitting positions with extended strings of fire. I have become very partial to the A1-3 stock and will stick with that choice. I do want a heavy barrel but it seems like the general consensus is to at least get it fluted, I will likely do that.

Surgeon's actions are machined out of 4340 stock which is a cromoly alloy steel so the CM barrel would bypass any galvanic corrosion issues. Yes, they do take longer to properly brake-in but over the life span of a good barrel that time becomes less relevant.

I think I have just about been talked out of using the Vortex, I will just save a bit of money by not getting the flash suppressor and not having the barrel threaded. Maybe, just maybe, I will use that towards a BO M5 and Mags. Still not sure about that.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Graham]

Re: Opinions on first build

1. DBM's:

DBM systems are necessary if you are doing tactical matches that have run-and-gun stages that require reloads - you won't be competitive without one. Otherwise, for a long-range rifle, DBM's are fun to have but not necessary. Ask yourself: a) How long do I take between shots? b) How important are fast reloads? and c) Is extra COAL important with this chamber/throat?

2. Barrel steel choice:

Stainless and CM both shoot well.

CM is harder and therefore handles wear better from the friction of the bullet in the bore. That's why some think that CM lasts longer. But it may NOT last longer because CM is worse than stainless at surviving the wear from heat. So, even if stainless wears faster, the way that the throat wears may be more favorable to the stainless barrel shooting better for a longer period of time.

This is important for the type of shooting that we do because it means that Stainless will handle heavy-bullet hot-load combinations better.

How so? If you have a bore scope, look at a CM barrel at the throat, and then look at a Stainless barrel at the throat. The CM barrel will look pock-marked; the stainless barel will look like cracked concrete. I would rather have the latter TYPE of throat wear because a more evenly-wearing throat will cause more consistent velocity changes as the barrel wears out - resulting in less vertical dispersion at long range. So, even if stainless wears faster, as it wears it will probably shoot better for a longer period of time.

 

[psinclair]

Re: Opinions on first build

et 1775,

FYI, I have almost the exact rifle that you have specified above.

My surgeon has a Krieger MTU 1-11 26". Ive fired hundreds of rounds through it in temps ranging between minus 10F all the way down to minus 40F with no ill effects. It has over 3000 rounds through it and still shoots .3 to .4 at 100 meters. Im shooting 155 scenars at 2950 fps. My bore scope shows virtually no wear at all yet.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Re: Opinions on first build

Based on several of the points made here (I am not too proud to listen to the voice of experience) I have made adjustments to the overall build strategy. Thank you all for excellent points and for playing nice with the FNG.

Surgeon short action repeater - .308 (all metal either flat dark earth or OD still thinking on that)

Kreiger MTU 24" stainless 1:10, .308 - Fluted

KMW bolt knob

BO M5 DBM bottom metal ( I would like to compete eventually, and mags do make sense).

McMillan A1-3 stock, standard fill, 2 left side flush cups and swivels, bipod stud,
marbled- 40% med. tan, 30% olive, 20% black, 10% woodland beige (close to the MARPAT colors I hope), decelerator recoil pad

Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x50 F1 w/ zero stop and ultralight rings

Harris BRM-S w/ KMW pod lock

Tactical intervention QC2 sling

That should get me the rifle I have always wanted, tough, reliable, worth more than my truck and will always out shoot me!

Thanks again!

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Re: Opinions on first build

Do any of you have experience with Surgeon's bottom metal? If so, what are the highlights, the detractors... How does it stand up to Badger Ordnance M5, both utilize the AICS mags, which is tougher, better made, easier to use, etc?
Any info would be great, I sense a bit of BO bias on sniper's hide and it may well be justified. I just want to get all my homework done before putting cash on the barrel head.

 

[mp45acp]

Re: Opinions on first build

badger is proven in the sand box and other hot zones, thats why most know it and reccomend it, it works!
learn from those who came before you.

as far as the rest goes, do what you want, have fun building it..

 

[earthtrekker1775]

Re: Opinions on first build

Thanks koolnhard, battle proven is definitely a good start in my book. The other side of that argument is that not everything the government gives us to use in combat is the best we can get. I distinctly remember carrying a lot of useless crap made by the lowest bidder. Now, I am not saying BO is not great, it is living up to its reputation in the hands of shooters who would not support it if it did not perform. I just want a good compare and contrast between the two parts before I shell out $300+ on one. Have you used the Surgeon metal or know anyone who has? Thanks again