Rifle Scopes Optic for a beginner precision tactical shooter

[KentuckyRifle]

Good Afternoon,

I am searching for an optic to use as I venture forth into the precision shooting world. I am a state trooper currently assigned to a SERT team on the entry element. I will not be functioning as a sniper or marksman on our team, nor am I really interested in pursuing that right now. But for my own personal interest and devlopment I want to take a basic police sniper course, and start working on the skills of precision shooting. We had a call last year that we responded to when neither team sniper was available, and several of us ended up approaching a suspect armed with a 7MM hunting rifle out on the tundra, when we were armed with suppressed SBR's. After that I purchased a Larue Predatar and put a Burris XTR II 2-10 on it. I was able to qual with it as a patrol rifle and it gives me more reach than our carbines, but I don't have the skills or training to really use it as a precision rig yet.

I also have a Remington 700 of some sort, with a Zeiss 4-14 on it, which was purchased from a co-worker. That's all the equipment I bring to the table so far. I want a good scope to take to my first class, which will probably be in December. Something quality that I can use to learn the basics, but also grow into later is what I'm thinking. I know I would LIKE something light and compact to compliment the Larue Predatar that is fairly light for a 308 auto. The features I THINK I want (without knowing better maybe) are....

RELIABLE. As a beginner I want to have as much confidence in my equipment as possible so I don't deal with the frustration of malfunctioning or inadequate equipment magnifying my own mistakes.

Illuminated reticle (it is dark for months at a time up here)

Durable (it will spend a lot of time bumping up and down in my patrol rig, getting thrown on planes, and being exposed to dramatic temperature changes)

Mil reticle and adjustments

FFP

Christmas tree reticle? (my thinking here is that I would like to be able to take advantage of the capability the larue has for followup shots and having a reticle that allows me to make corrections without dialing should aid in that?)

Light and compact

I was leaning hard towards the March 3-24x52 but some of what I have read on SH has me questioning it's reliability and durability, even thought it's size and weight might be ideal. I've considered several other optics and I'm thinking the Nightforce ATACR in 5-25 with the Tremor 3 might be what suits my needs the best in my price range. Obviously Nightforce has the reputation for durability and reliability, and it seems to match all my criteria well except it may not be as petite as I would prefer. I am wide open to suggestions though.

Whatever optic I end up with will have to live in a QD mount if it goes on my Larue, due to department policy about being able to remove and use iron sights. I understand that shooting an auto is harder for precision, and I may have to mount the optic on my 700 to take to class if that's what it comes to.

I welcome ANY feedback or suggestions.

 

[Glassaholic]

First of all Kentucky, thank you for your service! Since you mention the ATACR F1 5-25 I'm assuming you have a budget that goes up to about $3000, would that be accurate? The Nightforce scopes have a reputation of being tanks, but that also comes at the cost of weight which it sounds like you're trying to keep to a minimum with your rig. If that's the case then the ATACR F1 4-16 seems like it would fit the bill, my only concern is that you live in the great white north where you'll have seasons of low light, with that in mind I would definitely look towards 50mm and even 56mm scopes that offer excellent glass because low light is where most scopes begin to fail in their performance. With that in mind, may I recommend the Tangent Theta 315M (http://tangenttheta.com/Model-TT315M), it is a lighter weight scope with some of the best glass for excellent low light performance. I'd also suggest the Schmidt & Bender PMII Ultra Bright 4-16x56 which I believe have the highest rated light transmission for a FFP out there - (http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/new-products/4-16x56-pm-ii-ultra-bright.html)

I can also recommend some scopes that cost less, but for your situation lets start with the best of the best... but if you have a tighter budget let me know...

 

[KentuckyRifle]

First of all Kentucky, thank you for your service! Since you mention the ATACR F1 5-25 I'm assuming you have a budget that goes up to about $3000, would that be accurate? The Nightforce scopes have a reputation of being tanks, but that also comes at the cost of weight which it sounds like you're trying to keep to a minimum with your rig. If that's the case then the ATACR F1 4-16 seems like it would fit the bill, my only concern is that you live in the great white north where you'll have seasons of low light, with that in mind I would definitely look towards 50mm and even 56mm scopes that offer excellent glass because low light is where most scopes begin to fail in their performance. With that in mind, may I recommend the Tangent Theta 315M (http://tangenttheta.com/Model-TT315M), it is a lighter weight scope with some of the best glass for excellent low light performance. I'd also suggest the Schmidt & Bender PMII Ultra Bright 4-16x56 which I believe have the highest rated light transmission for a FFP out there - (http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/new-products/4-16x56-pm-ii-ultra-bright.html)

I can also recommend some scopes that cost less, but for your situation lets start with the best of the best... but if you have a tighter budget let me know...

Thank you for the input!

I started off thinking 2K but it is a waste to spend that much and not get what I want, so I can stretch up to 3K for the right scope if needed. It looks like the two scopes you linked are another thousand north of that? But I might find a good deal on a used one. I will start looking into them. My initial concern is, would either provide enough magnification for the purpose? While I certainly would like to avoid weight, I'd rather carry a little more if it will help me. Particularly with spotting misses and target id.

 

[coach4christ]

You can also get the Vortex Gen 2 Razor with the ebr 2c reticle. Heavy piece, but in your budget and is a very quality optic. The Kahles is also in your budget as well.

 

[Rerun7]

Have you done any research on the Vortex AMG? Looks like it would check all your boxes.

 

[Glassaholic]

Thank you for the input!

I started off thinking 2K but it is a waste to spend that much and not get what I want, so I can stretch up to 3K for the right scope if needed. It looks like the two scopes you linked are another thousand north of that? But I might find a good deal on a used one. I will start looking into them. My initial concern is, would either provide enough magnification for the purpose? While I certainly would like to avoid weight, I'd rather carry a little more if it will help me. Particularly with spotting misses and target id.

I hear ya on the price thing. Some shooters say all they need is 10x for 1000 yards, it's really going to be up to you and your eyes regarding spotting misses, but I will tell you this, you will see more at less magnification with quality glass that you will see at higher magnification with inferior glass. I would venture to say you will not have an issue with either the TT or the Schmidt. I just looked up the price on the Ultra Bright and almost choked on my iced tea! I thought they were coming in cheaper. You should be able to find a good TT315M using one of the Hide dealers for under $3000. Two used ones just sold for $2400 in the classifieds. For a little less look at the Minox ZP5 3-15x50 (basically the cousin of the TT - same basic design and optical quality is still extremely good). Another option I'd say for your AR-10 would be the Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 5-20x50, man I loved this scope on my AR, Eurooptic.com has these on sale for $3000 right now which is a killer deal, here's a pic of the one I had:

 

[KentuckyRifle]

You can also get the Vortex Gen 2 Razor with the ebr 2c reticle. Heavy piece, but in your budget and is a very quality optic. The Kahles is also in your budget as well.

I have looked at the Vortex Razor. It seems very heavy for what I'm looking for, and I am a bit concerned with all the folks I read about who have had to send their scopes back in for work with Vortex. The Kathles is a possibility and one of the scopes I need to look at.

Have you done any research on the Vortex AMG? Looks like it would check all your boxes

If I end up not biting the bullet on a 3K scope the AMG looks like a pretty solid candidate. Again, just a bit concerned with all the warranty work that seems to be needed with Vortex. But the AMG is an option.

 

[KentuckyRifle]

I hear ya on the price thing. Some shooters say all they need is 10x for 1000 yards, it's really going to be up to you and your eyes regarding spotting misses, but I will tell you this, you will see more at less magnification with quality glass that you will see at higher magnification with inferior glass. I would venture to say you will not have an issue with either the TT or the Schmidt. I just looked up the price on the Ultra Bright and almost choked on my iced tea! I thought they were coming in cheaper. You should be able to find a good TT315M using one of the Hide dealers for under $3000. Two used ones just sold for $2400 in the classifieds. For a little less look at the Minox ZP5 3-15x50 (basically the cousin of the TT - same basic design and optical quality is still extremely good). Another option I'd say for your AR-10 would be the Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 5-20x50, man I loved this scope on my AR, Eurooptic.com has these on sale for $3000 right now which is a killer deal, here's a pic of the one I had:

Wow. The Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 5-20x50 looks just about perfect except for the reticle option, but perhaps the rest of it's features offset that. Do you think the quality of the glass is significantly superior to the NF ATACR? The ATACR offers the reticle I'm looking for, and a little more magnification, but at a penalty of an extra half pound of weight. The ATACR is 56mm vs the 50 for the S&B, which you indicated earlier was a benefit in low light situations. The price is similar for the two, it seems that the choice is between the ideal size of the S&B vs the ideal reticle with the NF.

 

[SRPowah]

As a Nightforce owner with their new Mil-C (my ideal reticle), I would easily take a S&B 5-20 US any day of the week. I like their H2CMR reticle, and the dimensions of the scope are ideal for my needs.

One important note about the ATACR is it does tunnel from 5-7x. If the S&B doesn't tunnel, then having a true 5x would be more ideal in a law enforcement situation, or at least for the DMR role.

 

[Glassaholic]

Wow. The Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 5-20x50 looks just about perfect except for the reticle option, but perhaps the rest of it's features offset that. Do you think the quality of the glass is significantly superior to the NF ATACR? The ATACR offers the reticle I'm looking for, and a little more magnification, but at a penalty of an extra half pound of weight. The ATACR is 56mm vs the 50 for the S&B, which you indicated earlier was a benefit in low light situations. The price is similar for the two, it seems that the choice is between the ideal size of the S&B vs the ideal reticle with the NF.

Nice aren't they, but at the extreme limit of your budget. I am not thrilled with all of Schmidt's reticles even though they have a bunch. Was very tempted to buy the Pantone US 5-20 with MSR reticle at eurooptics they have for $2999 right now, but sale is about to end. I regret selling my 5-20 but ended up getting a Vortex AMG which then turned into a Minox ZP5 5-25x56 for my 7SAUM and I couldn't be happier with the Minox, the glass is amazing and I really like the MR4 reticle, but for me the 5-25's are too big for AR-10's (preference more than anything) so right now my AR-10 has a Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR IIi 3.5-21x50 which I call the poor mans ultra short. Glass is not up to par with the Schmidt (few scopes are) but for under $1500 it is a fine scope and big improvement over the original DMR. Also, look at your low end FOV numbers for the scopes you're considering, many don't pay attention and think low magnification is everything, the 5-20 has almost as much FOV as the DMR IIi at 3.5x so the Schmidt gives up very little even though it's a 4x optical formula vs Bushy's 6x. I'm sure you'd be very happy with the ATACR F1 5-25 as most are; however, for your application I think you'd be happier with the Schmidt Ultra Short. One last thing with the Schmidt US 5-20, only certain mounts will work with it because it's so short and some of them are pretty heavy putting weight back onto the rig that you're trying to take off. The 3-20 Ultra Short is another great option but is usually more expensive.

 

[steve123]

Don't count out the standard S&B 3-20x50. Not as nifty as the ultra short but one of my favorite scopes.

The March 3-24x42 I had was a nice scope but the S&B remains, March is down the road. I liked the weight, size and all controls. Didn't like the reticle and glass fell short on that particular scope.

 

[.30kal]

Since you are just starting out, you might want to hold off on jumping into the $3000+ world of optics. It takes some time to figure out what works for you and what does not. We all have different preferences. My friend swears by the NF ATAC, but I don't like any of their reticles, find the imaging to be flat, and find their scopes too heavy for what you get. I started with a SWFA 5-20x, which had great glass but I out grew the reticle as I wanted something a tad thinner and a Christmas tree. I moved to a Bushnell ERS, which was a great scope for the money. Tracked great, built like a tank, but the lack of illumination became an issue as I started using it in the late afternoon in high desert and on lower magnification. I used it both on a bolt gun and an AR10. I'd probably still be using it on my AR10 if it had an illuminated reticle. I now run a Kahles 624 on my bolt and a Bushnell LRTSi 4.5-18x on my 6.5 Grendel (great scope for a small frame AR). I think the Bushnell DMR Gen2 w/ illumination is a great place to start where you will have some money left over to spend on other things you'll need (LRF, Kestrel, ammo, etc.) to start the journey.

 

[Glassaholic]

Don't count out the standard S&B 5-20x50. Not as nifty as the ultra short but one of my favorite scopes.

The March 3-24x42 I had was a nice scope but the S&B remains, March is down the road. I liked the weight, size and all controls. Didn't like the reticle and glass fell short on that particular scope.

I think you mean the standard S&B 3-20 as I am only aware of the 5-20 in the Ultra Short trim??? But I would agree, some great deals can be had on the non-ultra short 3-20 and it truly is a remarkable optic. I've also had both March's the 3-24x42 and the 3-24x52 and the 52mm version is definitely better. One other thing with Schmidt is that you can get locking turret and the Ultra Short comes with a cap over windage (I hold for wind instead of dial for wind) which can be a benefit if you think the rig will get banged around a lot. My concern for the OP comes back to his physical location where you might have months of low light which is going to tax any optical system. Would a Bushnell ET DMR IIi work, I think it absolutely would, but can the Schmidt resolve more detail in low light situations, I believe it can, the question is whether or not that bit of resolution is worth the extra money. Here is a shot I took with my DMR IIi in a shaded area, this was just to give an idea of how the reticle works with illumination, image quality was surprisingly good even though the picture may not show it - I was able to see detail of the wood grain at the ends of the cut branches in the view that in the image look like dark ovals, illumination was also brighter than the image shows:

 

[samb300]

Not sure why you seem so hesitant to trust the high-end optics from Vortex, I'm sure there are way more guys out there running them problem-free than there are with issues. There's a reason the Gen2 Razor is the most popular optic in the Precision Rifle Series (PRS).

 

[.30kal]

Not sure why you seem so hesitant to trust the high-end optics from Vortex, I'm sure there are way more guys out there running them problem-free than there are with issues. There's a reason the Gen2 Razor is the most popular optic in the Precision Rifle Series (PRS).

The OP is looking for something relatively "light and compact." At 48.5 ounces, the Razon Gen2 does not really fit in that category.

 

[Glassaholic]

I have looked at the Vortex Razor. It seems very heavy for what I'm looking for, and I am a bit concerned with all the folks I read about who have had to send their scopes back in for work with Vortex. The Kathles is a possibility and one of the scopes I need to look at.

If I end up not biting the bullet on a 3K scope the AMG looks like a pretty solid candidate. Again, just a bit concerned with all the warranty work that seems to be needed with Vortex. But the AMG is an option.

I've had both the Kahles Gen III K624i and the Vortex AMG. They are both fantastic scopes, the Kahles is going to have a slight edge with a 56mm objective compared to the AMG's 50mm in low light situations, but the AMG is lighter by almost 5oz if that makes a difference. I did a review of a bunch of these scopes if you haven't seen it already you might find some help here - https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...light-tactical-scope-evaluation-part-ii/page2

 

[steve123]

I think you mean the standard S&B 3-20 as I am only aware of the 5-20 in the Ultra Short trim??? But I would agree, some great deals can be had on the non-ultra short 3-20 and it truly is a remarkable optic. I've also had both March's the 3-24x42 and the 3-24x52 and the 52mm version is definitely better. One other thing with Schmidt is that you can get locking turret and the Ultra Short comes with a cap over windage (I hold for wind instead of dial for wind) which can be a benefit if you think the rig will get banged around a lot. My concern for the OP comes back to his physical location where you might have months of low light which is going to tax any optical system. Would a Bushnell ET DMR IIi work, I think it absolutely would, but can the Schmidt resolve more detail in low light situations, I believe it can, the question is whether or not that bit of resolution is worth the extra money. Here is a shot I took with my DMR IIi in a shaded area, this was just to give an idea of how the reticle works with illumination, image quality was surprisingly good even though the picture may not show it - I was able to see detail of the wood grain at the ends of the cut branches in the view that in the image look like dark ovals, illumination was also brighter than the image shows:

Oops, yeah, 3-20x50

 

[KentuckyRifle]

The Bushnell actually seems to have a great set of features, and the price is less than half that of the ATACR. The Tremor3 isn't available as a reticle, but the H59 is, and it is very compact. I'm assuming it gives up a lot in glass compared to the S&B or the NF, but I could probably live with that just fine. The biggest question is reliability. Is the Bushnell in the same league of reliability and durability? From the reading I've done on here, consistent and repeatable tracking is often a concern with lower cost scopes, and I'm inexperienced enough to realize I would likely have trouble diagnosing a mechanical issue if it were present. That's an area I am willing to pay extra for peace of mind.

 

[CSTactical]

If you're looking for a great FFP Mil option with a Christmas Tree, you can have a Kahles K624i SKMR3 or Minox 5-25 MR4
Give us a call at 916.670.1103

 

[Glassaholic]

The Bushnell actually seems to have a great set of features, and the price is less than half that of the ATACR. The Tremor3 isn't available as a reticle, but the H59 is, and it is very compact. I'm assuming it gives up a lot in glass compared to the S&B or the NF, but I could probably live with that just fine. The biggest question is reliability. Is the Bushnell in the same league of reliability and durability? From the reading I've done on here, consistent and repeatable tracking is often a concern with lower cost scopes, and I'm inexperienced enough to realize I would likely have trouble diagnosing a mechanical issue if it were present. That's an area I am willing to pay extra for peace of mind.

OP, I sent you a PM. The DMR series (along with ERS and XRS) have had an excellent track record of mechanical reliability and accuracy among competition shooters. I do not think that is going to change with the DMR II. Another thing to note is that Bushnell only offers the illuminated reticle in the G3 reticle and not in the H59 reticle, that being said I believe the G3 is a very usable reticle that I think you would enjoy. Here is a shot of the DMR IIi on my AR-10 with the sunshade installed:

 

[samb300]

The OP is looking for something relatively "light and compact." At 48.5 ounces, the Razon Gen2 does not really fit in that category.

He specifically said he was worried that Razors and AMGs would go down and need warranty work. That has nothing to do with weight. I can only speak from my own experience, but my Razor G2 has never needed warranty work, so basing a decision with that as a heavy factor seems unfair to Vortex in general.

If he doesn't want a Razor because it's too heavy, and he doesn't want an AMG out of fear that it will go down, then that's his decision.

 

[Temper]

The ATACR f1 4-16 seems right up your alley and would be right at home on a semi auto.

 

[Prebanpaul]

I love the Leupold Mark 6 series. I have, light compact and I usually find them for $1500 on here used. 3-18 is a great power range. I have one on an AR and another on TRG -42

 

[KentuckyRifle]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I was stuck out of town for several days, but I am back and appreciate all the input. I found a class I want to attend coming up in November so I will make a decision soon and get something ordered so I can be as prepared as possible.

 

[supercorndogs]

I like the DMRII pretty well, but the March has been calling my name for years.

 

[zzyzxm]

Might want to consider the Steiner T5Xi 3-15x50.

 

[KentuckyRifle]

Well it pays to ask for good advice. I went back and forth on this, alllmost pulled the trigger on a Mark8, but when I got a screaming deal on a new S&B 3-20US I had to jump on it. It arrived today, I've got to get a mount ordered tomorrow and try to get it zeroed next week. Thanks again to all for the help, especially wjm308!

 

[Temper]

Well, you skipped about everything and went straight for the top shelf! You can't go wrong with a Schmidt.

 

[J!m]

I'd like to bring up two points here. Take it as you want. I'm new here but I am the son of a LEO and was also starting out long range shooting in 2008.

Point 1: don't carry this rifle with you on duty unless you are qualified by your department. Imagine a worst case scenario, multiply it by four, and that begins to indicate the liability nightmare you could be in for if you use that rifle on duty. I'm sure you have been through hours of liability training so just keep that in mind. Get your training done and get qualified as the DM or sharpshooter or whatever term they use. THEN carry the weapon, assuming it is an approved platform.

Point 2: even the .50 has had a 10x scope. If you can clearly see an 8" paper plate at 100 yards, you can see the same thing at 1000 through a 10x scope. When I started out I was sure I'd need more than 10x and (if I could find it) the scope I bought was a 4-12 (or 16 maybe) Vortex Viper. Very first gen but that doesn't matter. If you want reliability, reduce options. Just like a car.

Hammer=reliable. Nail gun=less reliable. Both get the job done.

Now, since you have your scope, I suggest a steel picitinny rail from Badger as well as a set of steel rings. Yes, heavier than aluminum but reliable. Lap them. Mark the mount on the rail with a dot of nail polish and let it dry. Then if you have to remove the optic, the paint cracks and is a tell tale for reinstalling it.

I think you said you have two snipers. Get to know them. Train with them. See what they do and why they do it.

Personally, I'd go with the Remington 700. Order a nice heavy barrel from Hart (or whomever) have it installed by a competent smith and shoot. And dry fire. And shoot more. Working with the snipers will give you a leg up but nothing replaces trigger time.

Best of luck to you and stay safe out there!