About the best sum of how most everyone feels about it.
Might as well add my name to that list of crybabies who only care about myself.
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Oregon Sniper Challenge
- Thread starter Cascade Precision
- Start date
About the best sum of how most everyone feels about it.
Might as well add my name to that list of crybabies who only care about myself.
I'm pretty sure Steve has said for himself since day 1 of match 1 that the match would be nothing without the sponsors and shooters who came out to support him back when the match was just starting out.
which has absolutely nothing to do with his current focus. If you never ran a match you have no leg to stand on as it takes every bit of work to bring in sponsors. And from I what I saw he made it very clear his focus was on the LE side of things.
Its not about you or any past competitor, it's about his current focus. He didn't ask past competitors to "vouch" for him. All past matches say is, he has a track record. Most matches evolve in some way, he chose to go the direction he went. Based on these posts I can see why. As if he owes you something because you attended a match in the past. Lol
I fail to see where it says Steve is not allowed to change his event and whos allowed to compete as he sees fit. If it wasn't for the shooters and sponsors the event wouldn't exist but the amount of civilian matches out there greatly out number LE/Mil matches. We wanted to see a match geared towards guys that get paid to carry a rifle and risk life limb and eye sight doing so. The Oregon Sniper Challenge grew rapidly and in doing so Steve decided to gear it towards one group of guys. Guys limited by agency budget, training and support. Matches geared toward guys running barrel torching 6.5s and absolute top of the line rifles are a dime a dozen. Sorry we can't make everyone happy. Your more then welcome to start your own event.
-Chris
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-Chris
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Oh and by the way, the sponsors that put over 100 grand worth of stuff on the prize tables were more then happy then to see it go to a Mil/LE Sniper. That's who truly makes this event, the shooters and sponsors and we have no shortage of either. In fact the quality of both quickly surpassed more then we ever dreamed.
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I think you've missed the irony in your own logic.
You're missing the point of why so many folks are upset. This match started as many others, small with little to no prizes. Many of us supported it then, promoted it, participated in it, and unless we were blatantly lied to, we helped build it to what it was which in turn brought in a great sponsor supplied prize table. Now that the match his reached a point of a 6 digit prize table it has turned in to a special club of invite only "friends" invited to take part in the match and collect on some nice prizes. It's no different than if myself or anyone started a match, called in the help of other shooters to support it, with their help grew the match to something large with a giant prize table, then telling all those who helped that they were no longer invited and the match and prizes were only available to my real friends.
I've shot a handful of matches this year and many of the others who were "filtered out" this year have shot many matches all over the NW and we all do it for reasons other than the prize table because honestly, some of the greatest matches out there have no prize table. I suspect taking away the prize table from this match, especially after this year's debacle, will result in the match pretty much dying.
If we want to take it another step further, and I mean this with no disrespect to anyone who shot it, but you can't claim this match to have the best shooters around when it only involved those invited. I'm not saying those who shot aren't real good, and the top ranking very well could have stayed the same had the match been open to everyone, but I guarantee you some of the best shooters around were not allowed to shoot it. It's kinda like trying to start your own sports league inviting only who you want and then claiming the champion of your league to be the best in the world.
I get where you're coming from and I can understand your frustration. Have you talked to Steve about this directly? I've only know him for a short time but in that time I have found him to be pretty easy going and approachable. I understand the match has grown and changed over the years and such is the nature of anything that prospers you must accept that, nothing I've in Steve's character seems to suggest he's the kind of guy to spat on or slam doors in peoples faces. If anything he seems pretty will to take things into consideration.
Now I can't say how things were in the past years but this year I can tell you Steve and his crew did a ton of foot work this year to bring this thing together and it was their prerogative to focus on the LEO/Mil community not "...cool kids with the member jackets...". This match had to do with supporting LEO/Mil not keeping out "civilain riff raf".
Lastly please don't think for a second that we (LEO/Mil snipers) think it is our great shooting prowess that separates us as professional marksman. It is incredibly humbling to watch some of these civilian shooters and its great to have watch this discipline of marksmanship take off over the last 10 years and benefit from all they've brought. But frankly as snipers we deal with in lives not points. So until you've answered the call and pick up a rifle with the intent to drop the hammer on a psycho gunman holding hostages at gunpoint or ruck 20k all night through the mountains to snuff another mans life out before most people have had their breakfast, then you can just sit down and take a chill pill.
Ya, you guys helped start it, agreed. Now it's geared towards Mil/LE shooters. Some of the best Mil/LE shooters were invited. Not the best shooters in general. The whole point of just Mil/LE is so those guys can compete against eachother and not try to compete with a sponsored shooter with 10 times the budget. I get why people are upset, it started as a small match for everyone and grew into a big match geared towards Mil/LE. I never said we invited only the best shooters, I said we invited Mil/LE shooters. Did some sponsors get spots to shoot also? Yes, they also donated quite a bit to do so. The point is, things change. Sorry. It's not a perfect world, we can't make everyone happy. And honestly I really don't care about the "great" civilian shooter that slings 10x the rounds in practice and has sponosrs. Last I checked there is more matches geared towards civilians every year then ypu could possibly attend. I'm truly sorry things didn't go your way and the demographic the event is geared towards doesn't include you. We appreciate all the supporters past and present but just entering in one event never secured you a spot in every future event. Sorry. We don't claim to have the best in the world, just guys who carry a rifle for a living and not 'gamers'.
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Here is my list of sponsors just for the record.
-Me
Ironically the 5 to 10 people I have on the list off the top of my head who should have been there and done real well includes a total of zero sponsored shooters and 100% regular guys who work to pay their bills, raise their families, and save their pennies to be able to shoot.
I don't have a problem with those who shot it, I don't have a problem with those who do this for a living one way or another, I have a big problem with the public relations involved in this years match on here and elsewhere basically telling all those who were told for so long that they were an important part of why the match grew and would always be invited back, had the door slammed in their face. When questions were asked, they were avoided and many of us felt that we were looked down upon with no explanation.
Would I have liked to shot the match, you bet. It was 20 minutes from home and I enjoyed it in the past. But after this year, the way things were handled, I would not attend it if asked next year, which I doubt will happen anyways. I don't wish bad upon anyone, and don't have a hate for Steve by any means, but in a non offensive way I think the sponsors need to realize they are providing great prizes to go only hand selected friends of the match and what has gone on. If they wish to continue to contribute, great, but I bet most would opt to pull out and this match will quickly fail. Maybe then the powers that be can start it up again without the deception that us non leo/mil guys are simply pawns to grow it into a free for all of goodies for those who really matter.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Thanks for the support in the past.
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LEO and Mil only? If your going to be elitist, at least do everyone a favor and rename it the Slapchop Open
Ro_Bird,
You get it, it's not whining it was frustration. I appreciate your response and not attacking. I have never done this for a living and appreciate those that do. You all have a great responsibility walking through life that many will understand.
Many of us are not sponsored either and this has been a bigger deal in the local shooting community than many realize. This has been gone over many times with conversations with the powers to be. Our club across town hold two "sniper" matches a year and we do not exclude others. We have helped there F-class team with a place to practice and stood up for those when they were facing lawsuits.
We now know how and why Steve wants to run his matches and we will hold our own.
Thanks again and be safe in you daily work.
Willys46
Yeah most people are not sponsored, we are just normal shooter who want to compete, but the prize table was CRAZY for such a small group and you probably had 30 people who bought 100s of tickets because if you win you basically are going to get tons of money back (exaggerating a little) I saw a couple of people with rifles that were 10k+ and I saw most guns 4k+ my gun doesn't cost near that and I would of liked just to win a chassis.... but the winners probably put the stock on a spare rifle to try it or just sold it.
When you stated that you would "always be invited back" that I chose only "hand selected friends" that is simply not true. I assure you that a majority of my firing line was new shooters. Also please note that all of my sponsors were well aware that this was going to be a Mil/LE competition and they still supported it. I never intended to slap anyone in the face but rather just trying to do something nice for my sniper brothers which I will continue to do. If it crashes and burns because of this choice, so be it. I do thank everyone who has supported us in the past as well as those who will continue to support us.
Steve
Steve, the one time I got to shoot your match I had a great time. I'm just bummed I can't shoot it again, since I'm neither .mil or LE. As has been pointed out though, it's your match. Do as you see fit.
That said, if you have another match open to civvies, save me a spot.
1911fan
That said, if you have another match open to civvies, save me a spot.
1911fan
M
milo 2.0
Guest
During a phone conversation you and I had July 16, 2012 you told me that this match was now MIL/LEO only with a couple sponsor spots and invite only civilian spots for a select few who supported you in years past. If we want to jump in even deeper you told me I'd have one of those civilian spots if I wanted it and to drop you an email reminder, which I did.
My last bit of advice to you, quit digging holes you can't get out of. You're not doing yourself any favors and not doing much good for your name with many of the tactics you've employed in the last several months.
Seems strange that we would have had a phone conversation on the same day that we sent three emails back and forth to each other about a cerakote job and not one word about the event but nonetheless it could have happened as I'm very busy and I can't remember every conversation I've had over a year ago. I will however state that if you had followed up with me at anytime prior (last couple of months) to my event I would have done my best to make room for you on the line like I did for a couple other shooters who have been with me since day 1. Maybe you were to busy pitching a bitch on another forum about me charging people $5.00 to attend sponsor day or as you put it the "tactics I've employed". I'm sure you remember it well as you guys thought it was my get rich quick scheme and that I was keeping my sponsors completely out of the loop and trying to pull the wool over their eyes as well. If I recall correctly you once again felt like that was a big "slap" in your face. To make matters worse you guys still complained even after you found out that all of the proceeds benefitted the SEAL foundation and that's just pathetic. I will admit that after all of this BS I'm even more glad that we now cater to the Mil/LEO snipers and I'm confident that you and I will never see eye to eye on any of these issues. Once again feel free to run your own event however you see fit and we'll stay our course as well. I'm done with this as I have lots of training to do. Out.
Twisted is a good name as you have a twisted view of reality. Not every "sponsored shooter" is Jerry Miculek or Rob Lathem. Especially in this sport. We have some sponsors but we pay a lot to shoot matches. Usually around $1000-1200 per match once everything is added in. Airfare isn't cheap. And seeing as I work 144 hours every two weeks normally and in the past few months been working between 24-48 hours of OT on top of that I would say I am a regular guy working to support my family, pay my mortgage and shoot. Don't want you or the others here complaining try and make it an us against them and using people who have been around long enough and shoot well enough to get a little sponsor help as the scapegoat. I shot before I had any sponsors and I will shoot after they are all gone. Just a little reality check.
As to the match, it's Steve's match to run how he wants it. As mentioned, you don't like it then run your own. Pretty sure you won't be invited back now no matter who the match is geared to so just call it a day and find another match to shoot. Plenty of them around the country. The closest small match near me is about a 6 hour drive. Everything else is a plane flight so don't think I am sitting in the middle of matches myself. If this was your only close match then I can feel your pain but if you like shooting then find some matches you can make and go to them. Not everything is easy and close.
And I never said there was. What I did say was that the 5-10 guys that I PERSONALLY know who should have been there are not sponsored at all. I was not the one who threw out the whole sponsored versus non sponsored aspect. In fact, if you read the entire post you'll see that it was others who claimed sponsored shooters are the ones who have unlimited budgets and shouldn't be here competing.
Can you run a couple matches a year? Say a mil/leo match, and then an open match another part of the year? I've heard of some other matches that don't advertise really because they fill up with shooters that have been there before (ASC), but they run 2 or 3 matches a year, but change things up. New shooters, women only, mil/leo only, ect.
Oregon is a LOOOONG way from me, and i'm not sure I would ever be able to make it to one of the matches, I was just offering my input.
Branden
Oregon is a LOOOONG way from me, and i'm not sure I would ever be able to make it to one of the matches, I was just offering my input.
Branden
I mentioned sponsored versus non sponsored shooters and I realize not every one has an unlimited budget but more importantly I mentioned Mil/LE. It doesn't matter if you pay your own way or have sponors, it's now geared towards Mil/LE. It's just that simple. You can keep stomping your feet but it's not going to change.
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I would love to see that too but Steve puts this on with very little staff and just doesn't have the time for multiple events. That's why it's every other year now.
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You sure did when you made the remark that we weren't "100% regular guys who work to pay their bills, raise their families, and save their pennies to be able to shoot." because we are. That was my point. People make the assumption that the world is given to people who have "sponsors". Sadly it's not the case. Just trying to educate you and others.
I do believe you misinterpreted what I said then. I don't care if someone is sponsored a little or a lot, good for them, really, good for them. What I was trying to get across was the folks I had in mind work to shoot, just as many sponsored folks do, but without any assistance from sponsors. The poster previous was hinting that the folks I had in mind were sponsored gamers, not regular guys.
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I understand the frustration over not being able to get into a match, especially one that a guy enjoys and has been shooting in for a while.
I have been running three big matches per year for the past few years and it is a metric ass ton of work that only a few folks understand or appriciate.
Bottom line up front.
The MD should be able to do what he wants, no questions asked.
Most of the bitching has been based on the size of the prize table and the loss of opportunity to pilfer through it.
One thing is for sure. The prize table would not have been supported like it was if the match was open to anyone. It was great to see companies give back a little to the officers and military guys that serve the public and national interest.
I'm a local guy and probably would have shot every one of the OR match from the beginning if I hadn't been deployed to Afgh or Iraq off and on for the last 10 years.
So if you want to shoot the OR match next year there are a few options for you. Join the military or try out for one of the LEAs
I have been running three big matches per year for the past few years and it is a metric ass ton of work that only a few folks understand or appriciate.
Bottom line up front.
The MD should be able to do what he wants, no questions asked.
Most of the bitching has been based on the size of the prize table and the loss of opportunity to pilfer through it.
One thing is for sure. The prize table would not have been supported like it was if the match was open to anyone. It was great to see companies give back a little to the officers and military guys that serve the public and national interest.
I'm a local guy and probably would have shot every one of the OR match from the beginning if I hadn't been deployed to Afgh or Iraq off and on for the last 10 years.
So if you want to shoot the OR match next year there are a few options for you. Join the military or try out for one of the LEAs
Steve good on ya, i applaud making it LEO/MIL only as there isn't many of those out there. I hope i can make it up there for one in the future being military myself. I could care less about whats on the prize table usually and I go for the training oppurtunity and to hang with like minded people. I would attend for those reasons alone.
Wow, yeah, that hasn't been my RO experience...most of the guys who have swept others or been flat out DQ'd from matches have been active LEO/Military....including three sweeps and about five violations of the 180 rule at a 3-gun fundraising match yesterday (that all could attend) to help a local LEO who was injured on the job.
Sorry but I am just a regular guy. I am sure have been paying and working to shoot just as long if not longer than the guys you have in mind. I would take being called a sponsored gamer as an insult. You can spin it anyway you want but what you are saying is BS.
Awesome Match Steve! It was very well run, little down time, and that allowed for lots of rounds down range. I know how much work it is to put on a match so I applaud you......
The RO's did a great Job with the flow of the match, hats off to them as well.
We were happy to donate some steel to the range before we left, and if you ever need anything, please give us a call.
The RO's did a great Job with the flow of the match, hats off to them as well.
We were happy to donate some steel to the range before we left, and if you ever need anything, please give us a call.
Jesus H Christ, do you really only skim shit and hit the highlights you want to read and believe? I never called your a sponsored gamer, I have no problems if you are sponsored or not, I'm glad you are, I wish I was at the level to get the recognition of some sponsors to help out. I'd take offense to being called a sponsored gamer also so take it up with those who may have called you such but I never did.
This thread has me both laughing and crying at some of the shit I'm reading and how people are translating the words they read in to what they want to hear. I know I'm not a literary genius and that there are certain tones lost in typed dialogue but fuckin a people. I'm in shock at how people who are generally so easy going and logical are twisting things around.
Didn't say you called me or anyone a sponsored gamer. Just said I would be offended by it. When I said spin it I was talking about the regular guy vs sponsored shooter. I am just sick of hearing that other shooters are regular guys and I am not because I might have some sponsors for the past few years of over a decade of competing. Maybe I took it a little more personal but maybe people, not just you, should not look at sponsored shooters as anything other than regular guys from the Hide who do everything you do but have a little sponsor help with some things. Those things do not include, gas, parking, airfare, hotels, food, car rental, match fees etc so we are still paying for alot and work accordingly to do so. Just a regular guy. 
MORE IMPORTANTLY Steve, you raised $1800.00 for the Seal Foundation, a great cause indeed. Well done and because of that, we will match that figure besides the prizes we laid out. Please PM, call or email me or my dime I contact you. victor at tnvc dot com.
Thanks Brother and I say that from the bottom of my heart for the monies you raised for our Tip of the Spear Warriors along with their families.
Vic Di Cosola
Thanks Brother and I say that from the bottom of my heart for the monies you raised for our Tip of the Spear Warriors along with their families.
Vic Di Cosola
Victor. That is the awesome news and you made my entire week. Thank you so much for supporting our event and for your amazing generosity. The night vision demo that Chip put on was absolutely incredible and I know that many of the LE guys realized the deficiencies in their current equipment. I'm confident that there will be lots of snipers hitting up their commanders for better NV. I would also like to thank you for your generosity and incredible donation to the SEAL foundation. We were proud to raise some funds for those warriors and I can't wait to call my wife and tell her of your contribution. She is going to absolutely "FLIP". Thanks again buddy. I will be in contact. Steve
Let's shut the door on this thread on a positive note.
Steve,
Post or PM the details of the SEAL origination and I'll add $100.
Steve,
Post or PM the details of the SEAL origination and I'll add $100.
Works for me. I've learned all I needed about some people thanks to this event. All is good in my world. Good on those who did raise and/or give money for a good cause. Just wish things had been handled differently/better by some as to not leave such a bitter feeling about it. Hope to see many of you at other comps next year.
Way to go TNVC - when i win the lotto or get rich, a good amout will go towards your gear
You guys need to understand something. The amount of whining and bitching that occurs at open matches is absolutely amazing. The "professional" geared matches I have shot in still have some of that, but nowhere near what I have seen from "open" matches. Some match directors choose to avoid as much drama as possible.
Steve gets to run his match how he sees fit. The fact that he is only running it every other year should give some insight into the amount of work that he puts into it. He also doesn't monetarily profit from them. What money is earned through the match is generally rolled over into the next one. I believe Steve does it out of a desire to give something to the community.
I don't understand the whining about not getting invited. I don't get invited to every "Invitational" match out there. I don't sit on the internet and bitch about it. I am happy that I got invited to the OSC this year. I have shot every OSC since the first one in 2009. I don't do it for the prize table. I would continue to fly cross-country and shoot it even if there was no prize table.
The argument about who "should" have been invited is laughable. I usually don't have a problem coming in near the top of the pack when I shoot an "open" match. I screwed up a bit the first day and got stomped this time. The skill level these shooters were exhibiting was awesome. I was grateful to be able to spend a weekend socializing with shooters I only get to see a couple times a year. It is an incredibly useful tool to be able to discuss our craft and just BS about life in general. You can ask the civilian shooters that were there. No effort was made to exclude them from anything.
Every match has a couple of issues, this was no different. However the amount of care that Steve puts in to see that his match is safe and fair is enormous. Many match directors just say "it's my way or the highway". Steve actually takes WAY more time than I think is necessary to poll people and try to make everyone happy. He really is a great guy and as a match director he makes the most of what he has to bring off an excellent match.
Steve gets to run his match how he sees fit. The fact that he is only running it every other year should give some insight into the amount of work that he puts into it. He also doesn't monetarily profit from them. What money is earned through the match is generally rolled over into the next one. I believe Steve does it out of a desire to give something to the community.
I don't understand the whining about not getting invited. I don't get invited to every "Invitational" match out there. I don't sit on the internet and bitch about it. I am happy that I got invited to the OSC this year. I have shot every OSC since the first one in 2009. I don't do it for the prize table. I would continue to fly cross-country and shoot it even if there was no prize table.
The argument about who "should" have been invited is laughable. I usually don't have a problem coming in near the top of the pack when I shoot an "open" match. I screwed up a bit the first day and got stomped this time. The skill level these shooters were exhibiting was awesome. I was grateful to be able to spend a weekend socializing with shooters I only get to see a couple times a year. It is an incredibly useful tool to be able to discuss our craft and just BS about life in general. You can ask the civilian shooters that were there. No effort was made to exclude them from anything.
Every match has a couple of issues, this was no different. However the amount of care that Steve puts in to see that his match is safe and fair is enormous. Many match directors just say "it's my way or the highway". Steve actually takes WAY more time than I think is necessary to poll people and try to make everyone happy. He really is a great guy and as a match director he makes the most of what he has to bring off an excellent match.
I thought we were letting this end on a good note without someone dragging it out again???
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Jesus dude. You need to move on. For fucks sake. Man up and drive on. We get it, your not happy. Have you tried just laying on the ground and kicking your feet until things change?
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Selective inclusion always makes one side angry and another defensive.....it's both predictable and amusing.
Please don't call me Jesus and for fucks sake right back at ya. If you can't handle the facts being pointed out and must be the one to come in and complain knock yourself out.
If you mean lay down, give up, and let those on the "cool kid side" continue to be the ones and bring it up and whine about the non existent whining, no.
Carry on.
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What do you expect to get out this? An apology? You weren't invited. Oh well, life goes on and the sun will still rise tomorrow. Even if you had a legitimate point it's totally over shadowed by ypur whining. The only thing you can chamge about any of this is the attitude you have about how you precieve you were treated, and that attitude speaks volumes about you as a man. You couldn't go. That sucks. Sorry. And lastly, you clearly need the last word but keep in mind that no matter what you have to say it's the way you went about this that people will judge you on. So, once again. Man up and drive on.
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No, I don't need the last word, I just have a hard time letting someone ramble on when they are incorrect. Point proven in that this thread has stayed dead for nearly a week, we dropped it, ended on a good note, I was not the last word, all was good, we basically agreed that it is what it is, but you dug it up, you started in again, you are the one who can't just let it die.
People can judge me how they wish. I haven't attacked anyone, haven't told anyone they were scum of the earth, haven't said anyone was a bad person. What I have done is correct misunderstandings, express the opinion of many who were involved in this match every year but this one, and sat back having both a laugh and sarcastic tear over the ramblings such as yours who obviously haven't paid much attention other than skim the thread and jump to the conclusions they want. If that is not allowed then what do you wish to gain from a public forum?
So, as seen in my post count I don't post much but I wanted to publicly thank Steve, Jen, and Steve's staff for a very well-run event. I had a great time seeing guys that I only see once or twice a year. Frank, Tony, John, the shenanigans and ass-clowning were a blast! Having only missed the first year, the match keeps getting better and better and I can't wait to see what comes next. To the folks at Ashbury Precision Ordinance, thank you for putting such a generous offering on the prize table.
As for the other issues and incredible drama surrounding this event; Steve, you run your match however the hell you see fit. If I'm not invited back next year for whatever reason, hey no big deal, it'll get worked out in the wash and my panties will remain un-bunched. You do a helluva job bringing LEO's together to talk shop and share TTP's; something those guys don't get a chance to do very often. Based upon my understanding, in-services are boring and, hell, mandatory fun isn't fun anyways... Those that are crowing about the size of the prize table; NOT ONE shooter at that event gave a bulls ass about how big it was, and everyone would have still attended if it was even a quarter of what it was or even non-existent for that matter.
In closing, thanks again Steve for all your hard work and incredible effort.
As for the other issues and incredible drama surrounding this event; Steve, you run your match however the hell you see fit. If I'm not invited back next year for whatever reason, hey no big deal, it'll get worked out in the wash and my panties will remain un-bunched. You do a helluva job bringing LEO's together to talk shop and share TTP's; something those guys don't get a chance to do very often. Based upon my understanding, in-services are boring and, hell, mandatory fun isn't fun anyways... Those that are crowing about the size of the prize table; NOT ONE shooter at that event gave a bulls ass about how big it was, and everyone would have still attended if it was even a quarter of what it was or even non-existent for that matter.
In closing, thanks again Steve for all your hard work and incredible effort.
