Organisational View of PRS

[Zigjib]

G'day;

I'm looking for people's opinions from an organisational POV on Precision shooters participating in precision competition.

I've had the opportunity to discuss this matter with a couple of other instructors from different areas/organisations regarding their team participating in civilian precision competitions.

Generally speaking, higher fidelity type activities like Mammoth seem to get the nod, but PRS seems to be, no, they don't like it and don't encourage it for their members.

Primary concerns in short are;

Attitude:
1. PRS can encourage a lot of "dick measuring" and the other shooters and the competition can be toxic.
2. The mental game of the shooter is very important - PRS is a game and doesn't reflect a sniper's ability to perform their function in a professional capacity, but there's concern that if a shooter participates in civilian competition theres;
a. A level of expected competence from the shooter's perspective - ego
b. A level of competence perceived by other shooters due to the nature of their profession
If the professional is beaten by civilians, this can lead to a bruised ego and shaken confidence in their abilities.
A lot of civilian shooters can't separate their score on a score board with being a professional shooter, and this leads them to be over confident and talk down to the team guys if/when they beat them, again potentially eroding personal confidence.

Equipment:
The guns required to be competitive at the higher levels are built specifically for PRS and are becoming less reflective of a typical field rifle or duty rifle.
This can lead to bad habits and a loss of muscle memory, particularly of concern for areas and organisations that don't have the funds to maintain a higher level of range time for their shooters or are using older design type rifle's.

These were the primary areas of concern. There were some others that i believe either fall into one or the other category for the above. The primary concern was attitude.

I'm not sold one way or another but from my view in my arm chair here what i've seen either way are;

Pro
We've picked up some good pieces of kit as the competition world seems to be a really good T&E environment where in the guys chasing the points will gravitate towards the best piece of equipment - making it easy to choose which gear to upgrade to. Just look at what the pro's are running.

Con
I've seen a precision shooter running lighter 6mm ammo for competition come back and get on a 308 and have reduced accuracy as a result (Rifle is also lighter than the PRS gun). We experienced this as well when going to 22lr for training on the bolt guns. The 22lr let us get away with things the 308 wouldn't. We've seen guys go over to IPSC as well and step offline for mag changes resulting in getting pinged by RO's as well. Potentially a similar issue with PRS?

I'm stuck on the side line here and looking for experience.

Is civilian competition generally encouraged or discouraged?

Cheers

Carso

 

[Huskydriver]

Do you work for Sierra?

 

[BurtG]

Do you work for Sierra?

I've seen a Sierra running lighter 6mm ammo for competition come back and get on a 308 and have reduced accuracy as a result

Seems Sierra is a military group ?

 

[Zigjib]

Seems Sierra is a military group ?

Sierra's is what we call our precision rifle guys - I'll amend

 

[BurtG]

Generally speaking the more you shoot the better you will be.

I don’t see the downsides.

Biggest thing is most of them can’t handle the ego deflation when a teenage girl cleans the course and they are bottom pack. Instead of using that as motivation they make excuses and don’t come back

 

[GordonFreeman]

This will go well.

 

[chevy_man]

Generally speaking the more you shoot the better you will be.

I don’t see the downsides.

Biggest thing is most of them can’t handle the ego deflation when a teenage girl cleans the course and they are bottom pack. Instead of using that as motivation they make excuses and don’t come back

One of the guys that cleans house on pistol and 3 gun locally is on a Guard shooting team. He gets more practice shooting in a year than most could afford.

Funny thing is he's a scout sniper, and he typically finishes bottom of the pack at our precision rifle shoots.

He keeps coming back because he wants to get better. What really kills him is the timer, since he's used to being able to spend time to build a position. Doing it all on the clock is where he's lacking.

 

[KnowNothing256]

One of my few forays into the Pit, if not the first, but since the thread so far is genuine curiosity and respectful tone, happy to contribute what little I have to offer.

First and foremost, I'm an upper midpack shooter generally, and I've only shot a few cartridges, none of them 308. I'm also civilian, so no first-hand knowledge of the requirements of active LEO/military shooting roles. Bottom line, my take is worth what you've paid for it.

That said, I think really only one of the downsides you listed is valid, that of getting too used to a rifle system that is designed for a fairly specific role (PRS-style competition) and getting lax on the fundamentals as a result. This is a well-known phenomenon, and numerous experienced shooters have mentioned that it's happened to them; that said, the upper-echelon PRS competitors who observe this tend to have one of two responses that I've seen. Either PRS is their primary goal and that's what they focus on, or they have other goals as well and they use a 308 or other heavier caliber for training to reinforce fundamentals. I don't see any reason why active duty personnel can't circle back to the 308 and "check in" with their fundamentals, or train with it at a decent volume...or they can compete with a rifle that is closer to or even matches their service rig. Nobody said they can't shoot 308 in competition, but they should expect more difficulty and lower scores (not getting into this debate, but my opinion is that spotting misses is harder with more recoil, and spotting misses and making corrections is critical to the PRS game). Which brings me to the next portion of my uneducated opinion...

If these grown men and women can't take a bruised ego for what it is, a lesson, then perhaps they need to reevaluate being in such a high-stakes profession. It sounds like some of the primary reasons these orgs (that's what I think we're talking about, anyway) tell their staff to avoid PRS is, in OP's words, that competition can be "toxic," have high expectations applied to the professionals, and that the mental game required to perform at a high PRS level isn't relevant to a professional shooter's on-the-job tasks or requirements. Phew, where to start...ok, let's take them in order:
- Toxic: Yep, there are unpleasant people in the world. But I don't think it's the majority of people, you can choose who to surround yourself with to some extent, and quite frankly if there are people around who aren't pleasant, deal with it. Grow up. If it was most of the shooters, sure, ask if it's really worth it to compete versus just training on your own; in my experience it's really not, and quite frankly I'm struggling to think of anyone I've been around who is "toxic." I think this concern has the least merit of these three in this list.
- High expectations of a professional shooter: Eh, maybe, maybe not. I think most of us in the game are well aware that it's a particular set of skills, and not all of them are trained, expected, or even necessary in professional disciplines. For example, a troop line from 400 to 900 yards in a 10 mph cross-wind is a very normal stage in PRS, but it's almost impossible to conceive of that scenario for a LEO. It's nominally plausible for a military engagement, but that's far enough outside my expertise that I'll defer to others with real-world experience in that space. If you run into people who don't understand that, why is their opinion meaningful to the professional? And again, this one strikes me very much as "If you can't handle some heat from squadmates during what is effectively a round of gun-golf, then maybe you should get out of the 'shooting hostage-takers' kitchen." Which of these is a higher-stress environment, really?
- Mental game: This is the concern to which I have the most objection. Bottom line, learning to manage your mental performance is a valuable skill across your entire life. Training/practicing to make numerous shooting skills subconscious (NPA, clean trigger presses, acceptable sight picture, minimizing wobble through use of shooting equipment, building solid positions using improvised supports, target acquisition, etc.) will leave a professional shooter far more bandwidth to dedicate to situational awareness, team comms, and the like. On top of that, learning to manage your emotions when you have a train wreck stage (or match), learning to learn from those experiences rather than hide from or reject them, and seeking out continual self-improvement seem incredibly relevant to a precision shooter, including professionals.

I'll add a few benefits from PRS to OP's list (which appears only to be "gear gets tested and improved"):
- PRS has expanded what we know to be possible with a precision rifle. Not just what gear is "good," but how small a target can be engaged with intention, how stable a position can be, how consistent a shooter can be...the list goes on.
- Learning to shoot a 2 MOA target 500 yards away from an improvised position with a very high success rate makes a kill zone on a human-sized target at 100 or 200 yards look awfully generous.
- PRS and similar competitions have reset expectations across numerous shooting dimensions: recoil management, rifle ergonomics and setup, inherent accuracy of the gun and ammo combination, target acquisition, etc. A professional who learns to play the game can reset their own expectations for themselves, and also learn their limitations; even if they don't choose to improve upon those limitations, they can still have a data-driven understanding of what they themselves can achieve under pressure.
- It's damned fun. Learning to set one's ego aside is somewhat necessary to get there, and I remain on that journey myself, but if you can play this game without throwing a tantrum (even if it's the quiet kind where you convince yourself the game is dumb/irrelevant and never come back), you'll have a blast and you will improve as a shooter.

Of course you need to manage your training, to ensure that the requirements of the professional setting aren't overridden by the game, but that's a training thing, not a "PRS will ruin a professional shooter" thing.

Anywho. These are my lengthy thoughts, I hope you find a few of them useful!

 

[ECK]

Since this is the Bear Pit I’ll just offer this:

All gun games will get you killed in the streets if you try to apply them to the real world.

 

[Downtown]

I've shot USPSA & 3-Gun for decades. On numerous occasions, I've met "computer analysts" from Hope Mills or Fayetteville NC, traveling in pairs, about the same age, early 30s maybe. Their weapons seem well used and they handle them with familiarity. Always great shooters and friendly people. However, rarely are they the best at the match. I think that's because the best competitors train hard to win the specific game and I expect these young men are busy with many many different things, pistol and carbine shooting being only one.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Get out and compete. If you’re paid to carry a firearm, you owe it to yourself, your team, and your customer to be at matches.

Shooter ego and mindset are the responsibility of the shooter, not the match/organization/fellow shooters. Background and billets mean nothing. Taking advantage of the opportunity to learn and experience new challenges is everything.

If permitted by your organization, use the equipment you’d deploy with. Don’t place the match arms race game. Play the game of solving someone else’s problem on the clock. Competing doesn’t build bad habits or degrade muscle memory, poor training does. A HOG or door kicker isn’t going to forget how to perform at work because he goes to a PRS or USPSA match twice a month. If he does, then the employer isn’t demanding enough out of their professionals.

Get your guys out to matches. Regardless of their hit ratio/final standings, they’re guaranteed at least one win in the “learned something” category. …and that’s what really matters because that one thing may be the thing they think back on during a call out/deployment.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Organizationally I'd say that it's a "soup sandwich" in my own opinion. I don't see much being given back to the average shooter who gives a darn other than the prize table and if you look on even this forum you'll find plenty of shooters in their 40/50/60's complaining about the production shooters taking away their $50 shooting bag prize because they shoot 'Open Class" out of some self imposed pride that drops their rankings.

Pistol games are one thing and suck in their own commitment of finances but PRS is exponentially more expensive consisting of several thousands of dollars between the tripod, spotting scope, rifle, scope, binoculars, Kestrel, shooting bags, etc. That doesn't count the sunk cost of preparing before the match either. By the time you walk away from it, you could have purchased a Subaru for your family and instead you're left with some really sweet gear and a group of middle-aged men bitching about not getting a fair shot at the prize table to grab a even a $500 Kestrel device after sinking in 10's of thousands of dollars between gear/travel/load development, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

-LD

 

[Keeper22]

I think it all boils down to why are you playing the game? This goes with most firearm related competitions, are you wanting to be a better Hunter, is it the appeal of learning a new skill set or do you thrive on competition and finding out where you stand against others? I have shot a lot of USPSA, Sporting Clays competitions and a few rifle matches, I enjoy competition and mostly enjoy spending time with friends and family during competition. I never get mad during one of these competitions, I will get frustrated if I am having a bad day and don't know why. In the end it is a game for the majority of those who play it.

 

[Emerson0311]

As long as they shoot their duty guns or something close, challenging practice is always useful. Many non-tier 1 folks suffer from the inability to adapt, especially in a time crunch. They learn their narrow game and that’s it. It would do them good to get out of their comfort zone.

 

[OREGUN]

I can’t think of a reason why a “professional” “team member” would get involved with PRS.

PRS is a game and involves tools, training, and tactics that are inappropriate for use by shooters tasked by their various governments with using firearms in armed conflict.

Go train and practice your actual job.

For the same reason, making PRS matches more “realistic” and “tactical and shit” is dumb. Like pretending that IDPA makes you well qualified to clear a building.

 

[LuckyDuck]

I can’t think of a reason why a “professional” “team member” would get involved with PRS.

PRS is a game and involves tools, training, and tactics that are inappropriate for use by shooters tasked by their various governments with using firearms in armed conflict.

Go train and practice your actual job.

For the same reason, making PRS matches more “realistic” and “tactical and shit” is dumb. Like pretending that IDPA makes you well qualified to clear a building.

Whelp- I'd have to agree with just about everything you said there- the only minor nitpick is that these kind of fluid competitions theoretically should drive innovation. Can't say that I'm seeing those innovations come into competition as of late just as High Power/Positional shooting has been bleeding a slow death for decades, but innovation is the name of the game to remain relevant I suppose.

-LD

 

[LuckyDuck]

Competition should bring value but holy smokes if this game doesn't have the highest entry point, I don't know what else compares. I suppose we can argue what PRS brings to the table until the proverbial "cows come home". but to the OP does participating make you a better shooter & do you like the folks you shoot with? If so, then rock out with your socks out and don't let anyone tell you otherwise,
-LD

 

[_Windrider_]

Generally speaking the more you shoot the better you will be.

I don’t see the downsides.

Biggest thing is most of them can’t handle the ego deflation when a teenage girl cleans the course and they are bottom pack. Instead of using that as motivation they make excuses and don’t come back

You talking about A Young? Damn she can shoot. I love to see it.

 

[chevy_man]

I can’t think of a reason why a “professional” “team member” would get involved with PRS.

PRS is a game and involves tools, training, and tactics that are inappropriate for use by shooters tasked by their various governments with using firearms in armed conflict.

Go train and practice your actual job.

For the same reason, making PRS matches more “realistic” and “tactical and shit” is dumb. Like pretending that IDPA makes you well qualified to clear a building.

I can't see how becoming better at hitting targets a long ways away would hurt them.

Sometimes there's good takeaways. Like all the tripod skills that have been created and taught.

Sometimes there's useless stuff like 25lb 6mm with a tank brake that doesn't recoil, but they don't need to go there.


If you can't separate the good from the bad and train in multiple disciplines, you're not a pro.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I'd be pretty concerned that the people you spoke with are overly concerned with ego and their team's self esteem. If your guys can't separate their ego from their performance, or will get their feelings hurt if some dentist talks shit to them at a match, or they read some of the egotistical bullshit you see on forums......you have far bigger problems to solve with your team.

You also have some fairly serious problems if your guys aren't able to figure out what they can realistically take away from PRS and what doesn't work for them. Also, it's fairly easy to just take either your duty rig, or a rig built similarly, and shoot matches. Again, if someone's ego, or the ego of others doesn't allow them to take their duty rig and place mid pack or lower, but they did it for training......much bigger problems.

The most recent series winner is active .mil. I can promise you he can go back to a .mil issue sniper rifle and perform very well with it. As he knows the difference between gaming tactics and on the job tactics.


I've been on the work side of rifles over 20yrs, and on the competition side close to 10. I would seriously consider not getting too much advice from any .mil, .gov, or LE instructor who's that concerned over their guys' ego. If they have legitimate reasons for concern, then the organizations selection process needs work. And if their concern isn't valid, it's highly likely they are excluding themselves with many other avenues of improvement based on flawed opinions. Either way, I'm not too interested in getting info from that type of organization.

In .mil and .gov courses, we teach many, many things that were/are derived from PRS type competitions.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Hell, if I thought anyone on my team/s' ego was that fragile, I'd make it a requirement they take their duty rig or a rig like it......and go have their ass handed to them at matches until they overcame that issue and were able to learn from it.

 

[BurtG]

Competition should bring value but holy smokes if this game doesn't have the highest entry point, I don't know what else compares. I suppose we can argue what PRS brings to the table until the proverbial "cows come home". but to the OP does participating make you a better shooter & do you like the folks you shoot with? If so, then rock out with your socks out and don't let anyone tell you otherwise,
-LD

Ha

Cheap compared to boat fishing , horse riding , track cars , etc

Buy a $2000 rifle $2000 scope. Ammo. It’s not the equipment holding back 99% of shooters

 

[BurtG]

You talking about A Young? Damn she can shoot. I love to see it.

Zane is in my neck of the woods.

 

[OREGUN]

I can't see how becoming better at hitting targets a long ways away would hurt them.

Sometimes there's good takeaways. Like all the tripod skills that have been created and taught.

Sometimes there's useless stuff like 25lb 6mm with a tank brake that doesn't recoil, but they don't need to go there.


If you can't separate the good from the bad and train in multiple disciplines, you're not a pro.

Meh. Do long haul truckers need to go race f1? Do airline pilots need to compete in aerobatics competitions? Do cheerleaders need to be on a competitive dance team?

Sure there’s some skills that might be helpful across multiple disciplines but those skills can be learned with good instruction without having to spend time and energy, risk, and resources (let’s face it, the guy who shows up with his duty rig and department purchased ammo is using your money to fuck around in the name of “training”) “competing” against a field that is devoted to discipline that isn’t your primary focus or responsibility.

Hire Andy Slade to come teach your guys how to use a tripod instead of sending them to a PRS match in the hopes they will pick up a useful skill. The learning curve will be much shorter.

 

[BurtG]

I can’t think of a reason why a “professional” “team member” would get involved with PRS.

Yeah. Learning to hit small targets from hasty positions in varying winds quickly


Couldn’t imagine how that would be useful

 

[BurtG]

Meh. Do long haul truckers need to go race f1? Do airline pilots need to compete in aerobatics competitions? Do cheerleaders need to be on a competitive dance team?

Terrible comparison

Other military’s are training to be better than our military. It’s constantly evolving. If your not improving your getting left behind.

 

[Jgunner]

So i know a few prs shooters, i have a couple matches coming up as well. I am nothing special, other than i run what i hunt with. Its a pretty tactical rifle, but shorter barrel, suppressed and shoots a cartridge prs guys don't run. Hell, ive ran an outta the box tikka t3! I am usually around the upper quarter or better, but nowhere near first, partially because i don't do it often and refuse to run a 26" barreled 6mm with a brake.

Out of all the prs shooters i know, all of them will take their rifle into the field and hunt with it and do. Maybe thats a small sample amount(5) but some are/were well known, at least in my state.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

So i know a few prs shooters, i have a couple matches coming up as well. I am nothing special, other than i run what i hunt with. Its a pretty tactical rifle, but shorter barrel, suppressed and shoots a cartridge prs guys don't run. Hell, ive ran an outta the box tikka t3! I am usually around the upper quarter or better, but nowhere near first, partially because i don't do it often and refuse to run a 26" barreled 6mm with a brake.

Out of all the prs shooters i know, all of them will take their rifle into the field and hunt with it and do. Maybe thats a small sample amount(5) but some are/were well known, at least in my state.

Many (most?) who don't have to pack a long way while hunting use their PRS rifle. At least that's my experience. If they are just walking to a blind for the day and it's not miles away, they take their PRS rig. Sometimes swap barrels. But most of the time its whitetail, so 6mm are plenty fine.

 

[higginsworksforme]

Are you in Australia?

 

[psharon78]

I've built my PRS rifle to be practical at hunting. I used it to drop a buck at 100 yards with the same ammo I shoot in competition. I didn't have time to develop a load for a hunting rifle I own at that range. It weighs in about 17 pounds or so and is a 260. It's fun to shoot.

There's a a lot of gear used in competition that is (somewhat) necessary. Of course rifle, scope, ammo, and ballistic solver. Everything else you can borrow from your fellow shooter. Tripod and binos/spotting scope; for the last 8 years or so I've just borrowed someone else's on my squad. Finally in 2023 I was able to get a deal. First 5 years or so I didn't have a kestrel. Bought that back in 2020. Many years I used a gamechanger fortunecookie bag. Finally broke down and bought a schmedium bag. It is a gear race, but I've never asked to borrow gear and been told no by a squadmate. Hell I had a barrel go south on me and was offered to finish a match by someone else's backup rifle. I have met a lot of personalities at the matches over the years. Only one was absolutely unpleasant and unprofessional.

 

[502Chevelle]

I haven’t shot PRS in several years, but the boys from Bragg used to come kick our asses on a regular basis. Some of them would place pretty high. When I read your questioning opening, my thoughts were really, who cares. There is a game going on. Want to play? Y’all come on. There is a lot that anyone can learn with more trigger time. Way back when, I thought I had this stuff figured out, right up until I shot a hostage square in the face at a match at Woodys. Yes, I know I’m dating myself there. Anyway, huge learning moment for me right there. More trigger time under different conditions means more learning! But, it’s a game. Wanna play, come on! If not, that’s all good too. Also, I’ve shot with a lot of guys from the military. Team guys, SF, Marsoc, and never once have I seen ego or assholery get in the way.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Hell, if I thought anyone on my team/s' ego was that fragile, I'd make it a requirement they take their duty rig or a rig like it......and go have their ass handed to them at matches until they overcame that issue and were able to learn from it.

To be fair, if their ego is that fragile then they shouldn’t be on the team.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

To be fair, if their ego is that fragile then they shouldn’t be on the team.

Agreed. My first post went into detail on that.

If you have more than the rare ego here and there, your selection process needs work.

 

[kthomas]

I can’t think of a reason why a “professional” “team member” would get involved with PRS.

PRS is a game and involves tools, training, and tactics that are inappropriate for use by shooters tasked by their various governments with using firearms in armed conflict.

Go train and practice your actual job.

For the same reason, making PRS matches more “realistic” and “tactical and shit” is dumb. Like pretending that IDPA makes you well qualified to clear a building.

I think PRS and adjacent style of comps can definitely add some value.

Participating in events in which you have to maintain precision in a wide range of scenarios under the clock will certainly highlight and expose some opportunities in your skillset as a shooter.

However, I will also say that the utility gained after going to a couple of PRS comps will quickly run up against a very steep wall of diminishing returns. Running through stages of contrived props will only take you so far as a marksman.

 

[M4orturnate]

PRS is not going to train anyone to be a sniper but I can't think of a better way to teach the shooting aspect of it. I've yet to encounter the negatives people on here talk about(it seems mostly to come from guys that don't shoot PRS). If you shoot a full size cartridge you still need to drive your 25# gun. Can't really free recoil a 6.5 cm or 308 regardless of weight. And after 2 years of chasing this game I'm a much better shooter even when I jump to a 308 gasser or my 9# 6.5. I can still see my impacts and misses almost as well as shooting a 25# 6br. It's like anything learn the lessons available, have fun, and don't try to make it something it's not.

 

[_Windrider_]

Zane is in my neck of the woods.

Yeah that’s her. Is was referencing her IG handle.

 

[Fig]

1. It's a fucking COMPETITION! If it bothers you that highly competitive people come together to compete against each other in a ranked competition, there's a knitting circle right down the road where these "instructors" would probably be a lot happier. There they can talk about what a great shot they are and how knowledgeable they are without a score board staring everyone in the face and putting the lie to their shit. THAT is the real dick measuring. Once the tape measure actually comes out they STFU. Never met an instructor" who didn't compete who failed to trash talk anyone who does. Maybe I'm also "toxic" so I just breath it in and don't notice the odor, but that has not been my experience AT ALL. I've found that both the people holding the matches and the shooters I'm squadded with are good guys who I would probably be friends with if I saw them more often that once or twice a year at a match. Do some guys trash talk? Yes, they do, and they're usually the ones who clean a lot of stages, and it's really for the benefit of the other top shooters who are in the running rather than for the rest of us who are there to compare our skills to those who are winning. I've never seen or heard of someone trash talking who was running a 50% impact rate. For every person who might trash talk there are a dozen guys with top scores who you would never know were top shooters while eating a hot dog and drinking a beer after the match. To me this is the cop out of a toxic "instructor" who doesn't like being made to look like a stroke in front of the world. As in all things in this life, if you put the numbers up on the board you'll find you have way more latitude to be a dick. Stroke out on the scoreboard and it's wise to keep your mouth shut.

SH is information and ENTERTAINMENT. There are some straight up assholes on-line who are sweethearts in person. The exception is someone who acts like a dick in print, and are the same in person (they're around). Keep in mind that being a great teacher or coach doesn't mean you are a great athlete. The two are rarely complimentary, and more often than not in opposition. The level of dedication (in anything) that it takes to become great usually precludes the patience to teach people the basics fundamentals that got you there. I seriously doubt there are many (any) top ten PRS shooters who don't have a training regimen that takes up a great deal of their time. Hell, just going to the matches is a pretty huge commitment.

There have been working snipers who did well, and some that didn't. As far as being on the clock isn't "real world", or some professional snipers get rattled by the shot timer, they ought to take that, learn from it, and do better, rather than pretending there is no application, or it is of no benefit to them. If you make it through a sniper school and have confidence issues we are all fucked in the West. I get if you are pissed you didn't do well (that will happen to anyone who thinks they're better than they actually are), but saying that the skills that are honed in practice and competition shooting are of no use in the real world are the words of someone who is afraid what competing will reveal, rather than what it will demonstrate. THAT is the bad attitude. In my experience people who are great at anything will give you their full attention if you have something that will make them even better, and whatever their ego is they'll set that aside to get it.

I've never been through a sniper school, but I have been through many military schools, and to think that they are on the bleeding edge of best practices or the kind of results based information we exclusively deal with is to be a complete fool. Often they're twenty to thirty years behind what the civilians are doing, the people choosing the equipment aren't going to be the ones running it, and the same gun myths that plague us are there in spades. Military culture MUST be resistant to change, just like a church, to maintain their integrity and keep their skill pool high. It's too bad they can't selectively change, adopt the good stuff and reject the bad stuff, but the culture is necessarily resistant to it. Given the last twenty years in the West there is nothing erroneous about saying, "change is bad".

I have way more confidence that any top 10% PRS shooter would do way better (in the shooting part) of sniper training, than a regular graduate of sniper training could jump in and be competitive in PRS.

Furthermore, the idea that training and competing in gun sports isn't applicable to the real world is total bullshit just for the training aspect alone. If you were going to get into a gun fight would you prefer it were with a beat cop who fires his service weapon once a year to qualify, or a guy that puts 4,000 pils down range a year, and practices drawing, shooting, and moving weekly? These are all perishable skills prone to rust.

Yes, I kill ducks better than I shoot skeet, trap, and sporting clays. But, to say that my duck killing isn't better because I participate in shotgun sports is ridiculous.

The practical art of killing human beings using firearms IS different than shooting targets to be sure, but it just doesn't make any sense to me that your ability to kill humans will be anything but enhanced by training to shoot targets as accurately and quickly as possible. If killing humans is your occupation I would be 100% in the camp that training and competing in any gun sports is going to enhance your capabilities rather than diminish them in any way, and if you are worried about the guys who can do it as an avocation being mean to you then you should probably pick a different occupation as mental toughness is far more important than being skilled at handling a rifle. You are telling me that ignoring extraneous distractions isn't essential to being a competent sniper? Hell, if it's a toxic environment the ability to ignore it and keep your cool may be the single most beneficial part of it!

Just my thoughts. If you are a sniper and want to up your game there is no downside whatsoever to competing, and no one says you have to announce your profession or use the latest and greatest gear for the game. If you show up and shoot you will see for yourself and maybe even learn something. It's the occasional shooters who pay their fee and compete with no fanfare and little chance of winning that keep it all running. Without us middle of the pack guys who work for a living, don't get much time to practice, and look forward to every match like it was the Superbowl this bus would be in the ditch. If you see me I'll be the guy getting a few impacts every stage, cleaning one every once in a while, and sporting a big grin on my face happy as a pig in shit just to be there shooting with people who love it as much as I do.

Yes, it is attitude, and the "instructors" telling you not to do it have a poor one, and are ignorant to boot.

 

[BurtG]

Running through stages of contrived props

Meh. People keep saying that

It’s basic positional shooting probe kneeling standing. Figuring out how to build a stable position quickly.


If it weren’t for stage design it would just be tripod tripod tripod prone prone tripod.
The stages force you to adapt and improve

 

[chevy_man]

Meh. Do long haul truckers need to go race f1? Do airline pilots need to compete in aerobatics competitions? Do cheerleaders need to be on a competitive dance team?

Sure there’s some skills that might be helpful across multiple disciplines but those skills can be learned with good instruction without having to spend time and energy, risk, and resources (let’s face it, the guy who shows up with his duty rig and department purchased ammo is using your money to fuck around in the name of “training”) “competing” against a field that is devoted to discipline that isn’t your primary focus or responsibility.

Hire Andy Slade to come teach your guys how to use a tripod instead of sending them to a PRS match in the hopes they will pick up a useful skill. The learning curve will be much shorter.

I think you're confused by what I meant. I don't see where they were ordered to go.

Just that if they decide to do it on their own it's not going to hurt anything.

Authorized to compete on their own vs being ordered to compete are two vastly different things.

 

[kthomas]

Meh. People keep saying that

It’s basic positional shooting probe kneeling standing. Figuring out how to build a stable position quickly.


If it weren’t for stage design it would just be tripod tripod tripod prone prone tripod.
The stages force you to adapt and improve

Yeah, I agree in that there's a lot more to this conversation if we want to have it.

And I do agree that it's good positional practice. But the practice of shooting off the same props in the same manner time after time after time only takes you so far as a marksman.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Agreed. My first post went into detail on that.

If you have more than the rare ego here and there, your selection process needs work.

Exactly.

Yea I know, I just wanted to reiterate the point.

 

[Jgunner]

Many (most?) who don't have to pack a long way while hunting use their PRS rifle. At least that's my experience. If they are just walking to a blind for the day and it's not miles away, they take their PRS rig. Sometimes swap barrels. But most of the time its whitetail, so 6mm are plenty fine.

Here its rough terrain and a lot of elvation changes. These people hike a heavy rig. A gun bearer has helped out immensly, but was a recent invention. I am in az, not just men either. 16# rifle just is what it is!

 

[Bullfrog08]

I've heard coyote hunting is where the training is at. There was a "top PRS Shooter" here that recommended something like that. I'd look at coyote hunting, PRS is only good for learning to shoot accurate and fast, with great equipment. I find learning those skills useless when shooting. You'll be much better off going to the range once every other month and taking your time making shots. I'd try to limit the range to 50 to 100 yards too. Less chance for error. As far a time skills......I find it more enjoyable to read a poem between each shot, makes me relax. Oh, and for equipment I would use a Red Rider gun with a Quigley scope, keep it all basic, things you can find in nature.

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

G'day;

I'm looking for people's opinions from an organisational POV on Precision shooters participating in precision competition.

I've had the opportunity to discuss this matter with a couple of other instructors from different areas/organisations regarding their team participating in civilian precision competitions.

Generally speaking, higher fidelity type activities like Mammoth seem to get the nod, but PRS seems to be, no, they don't like it and don't encourage it for their members.

Primary concerns in short are;

Attitude:
1. PRS can encourage a lot of "dick measuring" and the other shooters and the competition can be toxic.
2. The mental game of the shooter is very important - PRS is a game and doesn't reflect a sniper's ability to perform their function in a professional capacity, but there's concern that if a shooter participates in civilian competition theres;
a. A level of expected competence from the shooter's perspective - ego
b. A level of competence perceived by other shooters due to the nature of their profession
If the professional is beaten by civilians, this can lead to a bruised ego and shaken confidence in their abilities.
A lot of civilian shooters can't separate their score on a score board with being a professional shooter, and this leads them to be over confident and talk down to the team guys if/when they beat them, again potentially eroding personal confidence.

Equipment:
The guns required to be competitive at the higher levels are built specifically for PRS and are becoming less reflective of a typical field rifle or duty rifle.
This can lead to bad habits and a loss of muscle memory, particularly of concern for areas and organisations that don't have the funds to maintain a higher level of range time for their shooters or are using older design type rifle's.

These were the primary areas of concern. There were some others that i believe either fall into one or the other category for the above. The primary concern was attitude.

I'm not sold one way or another but from my view in my arm chair here what i've seen either way are;

Pro
We've picked up some good pieces of kit as the competition world seems to be a really good T&E environment where in the guys chasing the points will gravitate towards the best piece of equipment - making it easy to choose which gear to upgrade to. Just look at what the pro's are running.

Con
I've seen a precision shooter running lighter 6mm ammo for competition come back and get on a 308 and have reduced accuracy as a result (Rifle is also lighter than the PRS gun). We experienced this as well when going to 22lr for training on the bolt guns. The 22lr let us get away with things the 308 wouldn't. We've seen guys go over to IPSC as well and step offline for mag changes resulting in getting pinged by RO's as well. Potentially a similar issue with PRS?

I'm stuck on the side line here and looking for experience.

Is civilian competition generally encouraged or discouraged?

Cheers

Carso

Bruised egos? Seems ridiculous to even consider that a thing with professional mil/LEO snipers.

Because an electrician…teenage girl or landscaper smoked you at a match? That doesn’t sound like a very professional shooter. PRS competition is not toxic…people don’t talk down to lower level shooters.

I have seen “professional” snipers get mauled at a match and put their gear away and leave…totally on them. I have also had one ask me tons of questions…ask to train with us…work on his shit and now can play the PRS game just fine.

Check your ego at the door.

Some people are just better.
The top level PRS shooters have something that most mil/LEO don’t or won’t have…they are doing well because they are better…mentally/physically/genetically…it is what it is.

Just because you were hired to play basketball doesn’t mean you can beat Jordan 1v1. Once you realize that…you might be able to learn something and get better.

It’s a fun game…send your guys they should learn something.

 

[Fig]

Do you find better results with ekphrastic poems or limericks? Do you just read them or share them aloud with your fellow marksmen?

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

I've heard coyote hunting is where the training is at. There was a "top PRS Shooter" here that recommended something like that. I'd look at coyote hunting, PRS is only good for learning to shoot accurate and fast, with great equipment. I find learning those skills useless when shooting. You'll be much better off going to the range once every other month and taking your time making shots. I'd try to limit the range to 50 to 100 yards too. Less chance for error. As far a time skills......I find it more enjoyable to read a poem between each shot, makes me relax. Oh, and for equipment I would use a Red Rider gun with a Quigley scope, keep it all basic, things you can find in nature.

Hahahhahaha! That was a fun one!

 

[Haney]

Hell, if I thought anyone on my team/s' ego was that fragile, I'd make it a requirement they take their duty rig or a rig like it......and go have their ass handed to them at matches until they overcame that issue and were able to learn from it.

What team is this ?

 

[308pirate]

Organizationally I'd say that it's a "soup sandwich" in my own opinion. I don't see much being given back to the average shooter who gives a darn other than the prize table and if you look on even this forum you'll find plenty of shooters in their 40/50/60's complaining about the production shooters taking away their $50 shooting bag prize because they shoot 'Open Class" out of some self imposed pride that drops their rankings.

Pistol games are one thing and suck in their own commitment of finances but PRS is exponentially more expensive consisting of several thousands of dollars between the tripod, spotting scope, rifle, scope, binoculars, Kestrel, shooting bags, etc. That doesn't count the sunk cost of preparing before the match either. By the time you walk away from it, you could have purchased a Subaru for your family and instead you're left with some really sweet gear and a group of middle-aged men bitching about not getting a fair shot at the prize table to grab a even a $500 Kestrel device after sinking in 10's of thousands of dollars between gear/travel/load development, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

-LD

And this is the problem with almost everyone I see bitching about PRS. Just fucking stop with the "what do I win" bullshit.

There is ZERO to win of tangible value in USPSA area and national values yet they sell out every year, sometimes in a matter of weeks.

You either play the sport for the intrinsic rewards and motivation or you will not last half a season.

 

[308pirate]

I can’t think of a reason why a “professional” “team member” would get involved with PRS.

For the same reason the Army Marksmanship Unit, the USMC shooting team, and many tier 1 unit members compete in USPSA. To be better shooters.

Tactics is something different and gets trained separately.

 

[Frank Green]

When I go down and teach classes on barrels etc... shooting, bullets, ammo etc... are all talked about at one time or another. Everything overlaps. I'm not an expert on making bullets but know quite a bit of what the bullet makers do.

I tell the guys at the school houses this..... we use similar equipment and some of the skills overlap.... we just play a different ball game. That doesn't mean though that a military sniper cannot learn from a civilian shooting discipline/program or even vice versa. It can be PRS, F Class, hi power etc...

Both sides of this coin do create/develop gear/equipment and that gear/equipment can benefit both. Civilians probably generate more.

I know very regularly the team AI guys shoot with the guys at the Scout/Sniper school at Quantico. The SS guys will tell you.... "those team AI guys can shoot!" So yes the school has also seen that they can benefit from shooting PRS type matches as well and incorporate some of that into they're training.