Other Vietnam Era "Sniper Rifles"?

[Quarter Horse]

When I arrived at my final destination in RVN I found our team had a couple of wall lockers full of issue, capture and where did that come from weapons. All were off the books. There were plenty of privately owned handguns floating around but not rifles. Shortly after arriving, I made a trip to another LZ where another of our team members operated. When I walked into his hooch I saw a commercial Sako bolt gun with scope. My memory says it was .223 with a 3-9 Redfield. When I asked him about it he told me that it and two others had been purchased at a PX in Japan.




A post from the model 70 thread by MTFalconer:
I gues I am lucky in the respect that equipment and rifles are some of the only stuff he will talk with me about. All of my family get t honestly, my grandfather was a ranger/sniper in WWII...my uncles and father were all ranger/SF/Recon marine in Vietnam and to my generation with myself and two of my cousins being either weapons SGTs, snipers or Scout/snipers. There's a LOT of history there. My grandfather has passed but other than that I can usually make a phone call to verify any of the equipment questions or at least get what they can remember. Back in those days he said My grandfather and a few other family members of soldiers essentially kept his unit running. Either with scopes, mounts...hell even rifles being shipped in from the states as mail. He had the opportunity to call home about once a month and that was usually what they talked about. Equipment list for himself and his men. Then my grandfather would scour the countryside putting the order together to send out. My dad would just send his pay home or put what little money they had together to try and cover some of the costs. The best thing my dad said he ever received was a then new tech called TUPPERWARE.....LOL. The guys in his unit almost immediately fell all over themselves for smaller pieces of Tupperware to use in the field. I always laughed at that. Tupperware, winning hearts and minds....LOL


The above post is what brought this to mind. It is the only other reference I have seen that indicates there were nonissue weapons used by snipers of this era. Does anybody else have knowledge of others?

 

[Random Guy]

The most authoritative research on Vietnam era sniper rifles is in Peter Senich's books such as The One-Round War and The Long-Range War

The sniper weapons of the 1st and 3rd Marine snipers is fairly well documented:

USMC Memo dated Nov 27, 1965

20 M1D sniper rifles (3rd Marine Division)
53 Model 70 Winchester (30-06) rifles (3rd Marine Division)
59 8x Unertl scopes (3rd Marine Division)
20 M1D sniper rifles (1st Marine Divsion)

"New procurement will be necessary in order to meet the total requirement of approximately 550 weapons."

That request ultimately resulted in the procurement of the I think 600 Remington M40 rifle with 3-9x Redfield scopes in 1966. (I need to look up the original contract volumes)

There were a very few "special service rifles" which were standard model 70 Winchester rifles pressed into service that were essentially base hunting rifles that could be loaned out. Some were fitted with M84 and perhaps other commercial scopes, but the #s of such rifles was negligible and official records have not been published.

Hope that info helps.

 

[MTFalconer]

My only reference to this is my family and other reading. My uncle (marine Corps scout sniper/Viet nam) was issued Both the Winchester and then the m-40. The marine corps was certainly the first to standardize and field issued sniper rifles. Now in conversations with him and my father here is what I have learned. First I would like to make it known that the position of Sniper in that particular era was not an elevated position. Some in those roles had standardized military training and some didn't. Some were essentially put into that role as necessity. Snipers were an outcast profession, still are to some extent. In those areas/units where there was no designation for a sniper but one was needed the unit usually designated a person if one didn't volunteer. That guy received some in country training, Usually, but with the selection of Issued rifles for the job already in extremely short supply he would not be issued a rifle other than what they had on hand that filled the void. Those guys actually made up the bulk of unit level marksmen. They were 4 to 1 to school trained designated marksman. My understanding is that it was simply a need that had to be filled and the brass either promoted it or simply looked the other way. On to equipment. The military supply chain for specialized equipment was pretty scarce. If you didn't have the right paperwork, triple stamped and motorized you weren't getting shit and if your unit had no designation for a sniper then you certainly weren't going to get any support for that person or persons. The supply chain was slow at best taking weeks or months to get what was on hand, much less ordering something in. So they made due with whatever they could scrounge or get to fill the job until their "Issue" came in. Sometimes tossing the issued item into a footlocker because the quality of that part was sub-par to what they already had been able to locate themselves. It was actually amazing the things these two guys were able to get shipped in or source locally in country. Rifles, scopes....hell even ammo could be sourced through local civilian channels and used. So on one side of the coin you had my uncle (marine scout sniper) who had pretty much the best of what was available for marksmanship at that time. They were well supplied for those items. Then you had my Father, ( SF/LRRP) and in charge of keeping several designated marksman/snipers equipped under his command...including himself. They were issued what seems to me as second hand, rather it was whatever was sitting in a weapons locker somewhere. The standard issue at some point was of course the M-21 but some guys hated the thing and gladly pretty much gave it away or left it behind in favor of Remington and Winchester offerings sourced locally or whatever. My dad wasn't among that crowd, he actually loved the M-21. To the best of my understanding as long as those guys had unit level station as a designated marksman or sniper they could pretty much use whatever they wanted as long as it was vaguely approved by someone with more brass on their collar.

 

[Random Guy]

Here's a very good history of the USMC sniper program that was created basically by two men, General Nickerson who had the authority, Maj Jim Land was order to establish it. The first two instructors were Master Sgt. Reneke and Staff Sgt. Roberts, and pretty much all USMC snipers flowed from those men circa 1966. Just an fyi for anyone interested.

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/the-father-of-usmc-sniping/ [h=2]The Father of USMC Sniping[/h] ..."General Nickerson, who had been assigned to command the First Marine Division, happened to come though Land’s ordnance shop in Okinawa. He recognized Land from a meeting the two had at Camp Perry in which Land had briefed him on the value of sniping. Nickerson’s desire to get snipers into action in Vietnam led him to have Land transferred to his division in Vietnam in the fall of 1966. “His orders to me were simple. He wanted snipers in the field. He ordered me to get this done, and that he did not care how,” Land explained. Land was faced with starting up a sniper program with no rifles, ammunition, range nor any trainers. However, the general had made it clear he wanted this done, so everyone in the chain of command was attentive to Land’s requests. “His support was absolutely critical to the success of our efforts,” Land stated.

Getting It Done
Land immediately had a list of all the Marines in-country who were rated as DMs (Distinguished Marksman), the highest award given for marksmanship skills. It was in this exclusive group that Hathcock’s name appeared. Land pulled him and two others (Master Sgt. Reneke and Staff Sgt. Roberts) in as instructors in the new sniping program.

For firearms, Land began pulling together what he could, ranging from M1D Garands to Winchester .30-06 rifles from the Corps’ “special service rifles” section intended for recreational use. After Land had managed to pull together a group of instructors and equipment, he was ready to move to the next phase. “We decided that for us to teach sniping, we needed to operate in the field. Only by going out and doing it would we know what we were talking about,” said Land. Over the span of about a month they did just that.

They ran their first class in December of 1966, having requested 21 candidates from one of the battalions. As the program progressed, Land and his growing group of instructors turned out more and more skilled snipers. In fact, the program’s reputation grew to the point that Land learned that he and Hathcock had VC bounties on their heads."

 

[Quarter Horse]

Guys, thanks for the responses. I'm remiss in not having read Senich but having read many posts here, I am under the impression that he deals with weapons that were issued or appropriated through military sources. The Mod. 70s from stateside military competition use or from stores for recreational use are great examples. My unit was somewhat unconventional in a number of ways and one was that the combat units would come and go but we stayed. Consequently, over the years, we acquired crap from all over the place. MTFalconer's mention of civilian rifles making it over the pond for sniper use is the only that I have seen other than the one I mention. I posted a similar question years ago on the preScout SH without any input.

For you guys that collect and build tribute rifles from various eras I admire your work and enjoy your posts. For those that do the research and in some cases own the original stuff you've got to get this information down on paper. If you do not, it may be lost forever and the thread of extreme marksmanship, that exists throughout our military history will again be severed. As for the current snipers and the DMs their place in history appears secure. The current doctrine makes the use of extreme marksmanship an integral part of combat. Unless we evolve to machines fighting our battles, the place for fine marksmanship is currently secure.

buffalowinter's find of the Hartigg case is a great example. In all probability, had that case not been purchased by an ex SF weirdo who lives in the desert and shoots off of horses, it's possible meaning could well have been lost. (Buffalowinter, the "wierdo" comment is with the sincerest respect).

Edit: This post was written over an entire day of being in and out of the house while getting things on our place done. Random, you got your post up on the "inbetween" and it's value is noted. If I can find the time, I obviously have reading to do. Thanks

 

[sandwarrior]

Quarter horse,

Thanks for posting this!

Aside from the "known or documented" rifles we hear of, there are also known cases of European arms making their way into Viet Nam. German K98's with with Zeiss, Doctor and PE/PEM scopes on them. Czech Mausers with scopes. WWII Japanese Sniper rifles that survived long enough to get captured.

Some of it pretty high quality stuff. I think we were fortunate that only in limited cases did the other side (N. VN, China, USSR) ever scale up training so these guys could truly be effective. Case in point, the sniper platoon that was trained in the USSR, to specifically combat the Marine Sniper detachment that Hathcock was a member of. What if they had gone to another part of the country and raised hell with a less formidable unit of ours? Instead of taking on Hathcock?

Of that platoon, a couple rifles were captured. They were a vast improvement over what was being fielded at the time.

Added:. I forgot to mention, post WWII, we also took possession of scads of Mausers. Most of these went to our civilian market. Where, if you couldn't afford a Winny, you could get a sporter, built literally dirt cheap, the way you wanted it. 30-06 was an easy conversion.

 

[MTFalconer]

Let's not forget the occupation of Vietnam by the French, there were many captured french arms in place by the time we got there. The French were courteous enough to leave them when they left.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I'm interested what MTFalconer's dad and uncle have to say about non-issue rifles making it to RVN. Observations regarding foreign weapons being used are without doubt valid. VN spent a lot of time at war or in the midst of insurgency from WWII forward. I'm hoping there is more info about the use of civilian firearms.

Anecdotally, the VZ58 was, in appearance, a knock off of the AK but was mechanically different. It came in a paratroop model with a folder. We got inquiries about these. Apparently some of the recon units coveted them.

The Brits have a history of using civilian firearms from both WWI and WWII.

 

[sandwarrior]

Let's not forget the occupation of Vietnam by the French, there were many captured french arms in place by the time we got there. The French were courteous enough to leave them when they left.

A lot of MAS rifles. ...Only dropped twice in this case. I couldn't say what they had for sniper rifles. Someone posted, not too long ago, a French sniper scope made just after WWII.

 

[MTFalconer]

I'm interested what MTFalconer's dad and uncle have to say about non-issue rifles making it to RVN. Observations regarding foreign weapons being used are without doubt valid. VN spent a lot of time at war or in the midst of insurgency from WWII forward. I'm hoping there is more info about the use of civilian firearms.

Anecdotally, the VZ58 was, in appearance, a knock off of the AK but was mechanically different. It came in a paratroop model with a folder. We got inquiries about these. Apparently some of the recon units coveted them.

The Brits have a history of using civilian firearms from both WWI and WWII.

I'll give them a call and ask. My dad's memory is pretty good, my uncle....not so much. He get's flashes of things but when asked about specifics all I usually get is "shit, I don't know".

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Veery good stuff yall! Thanks everyone for sharing!

Just a few things, for one, hows the quality of the old Arisaka snipers? Were they pretty good rifles?

Also sandwarrior - very interesting topic you bring up re: Soviet training of NVA/VC snipers.. do you have any more info on this? Or where I could get more info? Also, was the Dragunov ever deployed to Vietnam? What about SKS DMR's?

 

[sandwarrior]

Veery good stuff yall! Thanks everyone for sharing!

Just a few things, for one, hows the quality of the old Arisaka snipers? Were they pretty good rifles?

Also sandwarrior - very interesting topic you bring up re: Soviet training of NVA/VC snipers.. do you have any more info on this? Or where I could get more info? Also, was the Dragunov ever deployed to Vietnam? What about SKS DMR's?

Only what was gleaned from the few books I've read about VN sniping and in particular, Carlos Hathcock. Most of the snipers didn't receive the in-depth training that that platoon did. Most of the VN vets I knew who encountered snipers didn't find them to be very accurate shooters. But, like any sniper who scores a hit, they get EVERYONE'S attention. It's a psychological thing that people never forget.

As to the Arisaka, it was actually a pretty good, and well built sniper system. Hits at 400 yds are easily doable. The problem there is employment and training and of course, geography. The South Pacific didn't usually lend itstelf (Viet Nam was much the same) to extremely long shots. Or, even shots past 500 yds. for that matter. Which the Arisaka, type 38 and 99, were both quiate capable of. The scope they used was considered by some to be superior to our choice of sniper scope.

 

[MTFalconer]

Also, was the Dragunov ever deployed to Vietnam? What about SKS DMR's?

The dragunov was most certainly used in Viet Nam. To what extent I am not sure. It was my understanding that those shooters receiving training from Russian troops received them. Now that is not to say that more weren't in circulation. Having been first issued in 1963 it was relatively new tech back then. Hell it's still in current issue today. In the right hands that was the deadliest rifle ever invented. It was most certainly one of the very first sniper rifles and the design is still effective today. I've had my hands on more than a few and while they aren't the most accurate rifle I've shot they are still easily minute of man at their designated ranges. Out to 8-900 I wouldn't stand and let someone shoot at me with one. The one I had many years ago, would shoot under an inch with surplus ammo. What little match ammo I ever got for it was outstanding. Now then, hand loading for it made the thing a tack driver. Combine that with the basic indestructability of it and it was a hell of a thing once you get used to the trigger.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

The dragunov was most certainly used in Viet Nam. To what extent I am not sure. It was my understanding that those shooters receiving training from Russian troops received them. Now that is not to say that more weren't in circulation. Having been first issued in 1963 it was relatively new tech back then. Hell it's still in current issue today. In the right hands that was the deadliest rifle ever invented. It was most certainly one of the very first sniper rifles and the design is still effective today. I've had my hands on more than a few and while they aren't the most accurate rifle I've shot they are still easily minute of man at their designated ranges. Out to 8-900 I wouldn't stand and let someone shoot at me with one. The one I had many years ago, would shoot under an inch with surplus ammo. What little match ammo I ever got for it was outstanding. Now then, hand loading for it made the thing a tack driver. Combine that with the basic indestructability of it and it was a hell of a thing once you get used to the trigger.

Wait a sec.. let me get this straight you had a real Russian SVD and let go of the thing??!! Even if it was a Tigr or NDM-86.. you made a mistake not keeping that, sir! Talk about $$$$ !!

Or was it the much more common PSL? Or a SVD-styled Vepr/Saiga/etc..??? Not that those really shoot much worse/better than a real SVD/Tigr/NDM-86 from reports Ive seen, but theyre way more common and not nearly as expensive.

Also, did you ever by chance run across some ammo called "Soviet Extra Match" or some such? 174gr I believe? Supposedly some of the best x54r out there..??

Anywho, so I assume the Soviet training/advising teams sent to Nam to train NVA snipers, were some pretty highly skilled troops/instructors? Possibly WW2 vets with solid experience in the field? Is there any chance Soviet soldiers actually went out to the frontline to give the NVA some on-the-job training? Or even lead some important/secret ops and fired shots at us/were fired upon by us in anger?

sandwarrior - as far as Mausers go, how/where would you rate the Arisakas among them? Regarding distances in the Pacific, for sure it seems like there wasnt enough room to wring out a sniper rifle. Ive seen several anecdotes from the Pacific theater on effective countersniping by our guys with ordinary iron sight Garands, or even M1 Carbines in some cases...

 

[sandwarrior]

The dragunov was most certainly used in Viet Nam. To what extent I am not sure. It was my understanding that those shooters receiving training from Russian troops received them. Now that is not to say that more weren't in circulation. Having been first issued in 1963 it was relatively new tech back then. Hell it's still in current issue today. In the right hands that was the deadliest rifle ever invented. It was most certainly one of the very first sniper rifles and the design is still effective today. I've had my hands on more than a few and while they aren't the most accurate rifle I've shot they are still easily minute of man at their designated ranges. Out to 8-900 I wouldn't stand and let someone shoot at me with one. The one I had many years ago, would shoot under an inch with surplus ammo. What little match ammo I ever got for it was outstanding. Now then, hand loading for it made the thing a tack driver. Combine that with the basic indestructability of it and it was a hell of a thing once you get used to the trigger.

^^^^^
Agreed! I, for way too long, completely underestimated this particular Russian capability. I've shot 174 gr. Match and 182 gr. Match and was simply AMAZED at how accurate it was out of a 1942 Tula.

Coyote,

One of the most telling things of the Arisaka was after the war when it was one of the rifle actions PO Ackley had a hard time destroying. The cartridge was as good as any current 6.5mm rifle from then and if it had spitzer bullet (or at least a good high BC spitzer) it would have ranged pretty far. As you know one reason so many are flocking to the 6.5's over .30 cal. cartridges today is their naturally high BC's.

Comparing this to a Mauser in function is pretty much comparing a Mauser to a Mauser. Robust and tough, but not always built to perfection when it comes to accuracy. Built well enough to be accurate enough. I would say none of those shot above in their original congiguration are as accurate as the K-31.

 

[Quarter Horse]

An anecdote regarding the Dragunov. I was in class at the Army Intel. School in '68. The guy's from Langley showed up occasionally to brief students in our MOS. It may have been once or maybe twice. In any case, we were informed about a program the government had which paid a reward or bounty for certain equipment delivered to the good guys. This included everything from Russian subs ("The Hunt For Red October) to the Dragunov. Apparently by '68 we had never had one in our hands.

Of course, considering the source, we might have already gotten a boxcar full of Dragunovs. Disinformation is/was much easier to disseminate than real intel. is to develop.

 

[Strykervet]

Nobody for the M2HB and shimmed hard mount with a starlight scope? Didn't Hathcock or Mawhinney do that? Can say from experience that it works, if not a bit unconventional.

 

[sandwarrior]

Nobody for the M2HB and shimmed hard mount with a starlight scope? Didn't Hathcock or Mawhinney do that? Can say from experience that it works, if not a bit unconventional.

Hathcock did that. Good point. That idea is where the modern .50 sniper rifle came from.

 

[Foul Mike]

I was in RVN in the 1st. Cav. March 69-March70 I was NOT a sniper, I never had any sniper training, I was just a grunt from Colorado that had some experience hunting deer and elk at home and the Mod.70 was no stranger to me nor was the 3X9 Redfield scope. The scopes were made in Denver and could be had by stopping by the Redfield factory or Dave Cook's or Gart Bros. Sporting Goods stores. That is what I used to hunt with.at home. The rifle belonged to my Uncle but he always let me use it whenever I wanted as long as I went out behind the shop and checked the zero and made any adjustments necessary.
While at QuanLoi my Plt. Sgt. and I used a Model 70 Win with 3x9 Redfield scope that the Bn. armorer had in his conex.. I have no idea as to how he had it or where it came from but he had Match ammo also. We took it down by the Greenline and checked the zero then went up in the towers on the Greenline around the perimeter, different towers almost everyday and used a pissoff spotting scope and the Redfield to look for bad guys out beyond the wire. the rifle was accurate. Both rifles were accurate and both 30/06.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I was in RVN in the 1st. Cav. March 69-March70 I was NOT a sniper, I never had any sniper training, I was just a grunt from Colorado that had some experience hunting deer and elk at home and the Mod.70 was no stranger to me nor was the 3X9 Redfield scope. The scopes were made in Denver and could be had by stopping by the Redfield factory or Dave Cook's or Gart Bros. Sporting Goods stores. That is what I used to hunt with.at home. The rifle belonged to my Uncle but he always let me use it whenever I wanted as long as I went out behind the shop and checked the zero and made any adjustments necessary.
While at QuanLoi my Plt. Sgt. and I used a Model 70 Win with 3x9 Redfield scope that the Bn. armorer had in his conex.. I have no idea as to how he had it or where it came from but he had Match ammo also. We took it down by the Greenline and checked the zero then went up in the towers on the Greenline around the perimeter, different towers almost everyday and used a pissoff spotting scope and the Redfield to look for bad guys out beyond the wire. the rifle was accurate. Both rifles were accurate and both 30/06.

Was it M70 sporter or target or what? Pre 64..?? Reckon ya ain't got no pics do you sir?

 

[Foul Mike]

Both rifles were without a doubt pre64, I know the difference.
The one I used in RVN had a heavier stock than my Unk's rifle, but he was not above altering a stock to fit his needs or restocking if he didn't like what he had. He liked Fajen? stocks but it was more than likely a standard sporter and the one in RVN a target model
I wish I had pictures and wish I had the Uncles rifle too but it was sold at the estate auction when he passed and I didn't have the loot to buy it. I really regret that. I did inherit other rifles he had but the Mod.70 was not one of them.
All I had for a camera in RVN was a Kodak Instamatic, carried in a plastic PRC 25 battery bag folded over in my ruck. I only have 4 pictures left from what I took and sent home to be developed, usually the film was no good by the time it got home or so out of focus to be of no value. Too much moisture and they couldn't unroll the film
Photography was the farthest thing from my mind at the time, I regret that also as I saw some beautiful country over there, however, the landowners/residents were Assholes and didn't want me and my friends "Hunting" on their property.

 

[spooledup]

Since VZ 58s were mentioned above here is a pic of my Father in law during Vietnam. He doesn't say much about it but he has talked several times about the rifle that wouldn't quit. This VZ58 he acquired.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I pulled up this old thread to see if there is any new info regarding the use of civilian rifles and scopes in RVN.

The information cplnorton has developed from original documents is amazing. When we get someone like NSHannibal on board and combine the two it becomes anecdotal history with validated information. It's pretty amazing stuff that shows up on this forum.