Gunsmithing Our own Copper/Carbon Solvent Test

[kombayotch]

Ok, so many of you have probably seen the famous bullet soaking tests floating around the web. Such as this:

http://www.cleenboreusa.com/kg/kg12testresults.asp

I'm not sure if I believe them to be impartial. Results don't jive with my experience with some of the products tested. Further, they leave out some of the most popular products such as Wipeout and Montana Extreme 50 BMG (they only show thier regular solvent).

So, I decided to run my own test. Just started it now. I'm using 0.308 cal. 155 gr. Lapua Scenars since they are a popular bullet on here. I opened up the noses with a punch to a bit under 1/8" so that thicker solvents will also be able to enter the hollow point and drain out at the end of the test. The cleaners I am using are:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Boretech Eliminator</span>

Blue cloud of "fumes" around the bullet.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Butch's Bore Shine</span>

Blue cloud of "fumes" around the bullet (less than BTE).

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out</span>

Nothing obvious...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (only coated the bullet with accelerator)</span>

Some blue "fumes" around the bullet.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix)</span>

Mixture quickly foamed up. Could not see bullet or liquid at all initially. Swishing showed dark blue colored liquid right away.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ballistol</span>

Nothing obvious...

These are the solvents I have on hand. I will post my results after a 24 hour soak and dry. I invite others to run the experiment with whatever they have on hand and post their results.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Some observations after a 1/2 hour of soak (interesting for range cleaning):

<span style="font-weight: bold">Boretech Eliminator:</span>

Light blue color to the liquid, blue cloud around the bullet. Bullet looks etched, but clean.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Butch's Bore Shine:</span>

Light blue color (less than BTE) to the liquid. Bullet looks etched and dirty (slight blue/black deposits).

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out:</span>

Liquid is clear, bullet looks slightly etched but clean.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (only coated the bullet with accelerator):</span>

Liquid is very faintly blue, bullet looks slightly etched but clean.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix):</span>

Can't see the bullet (full of foam). Moving aside the foam shows a dark blue liquid.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ballistol:</span>

Liquid is clear. Tiny blue cloud in the liquid around the tip. Bullet is shiny.

Left-to-right (CW): BTE, BBS, PO, PO + Acc., PO/Acc. 50/50, Ballistol

 

[eddybo]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Keep us posted, I am very interested in the results. Would be my guess that nasty BTE will eat the whole damn thing. I use the BTE every once in a while, but mostly use Butch's. I do not have any copper problems to speak of and am happy with the products I am using, but interested none the less.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Where is the Montana Extreme 50 BMG test you mentioned?...damn fine stuff I find.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I don't have any on hand... The local shop didn't have any and I wasn't going to order a ton of cleaning products to carry this out.

My thought was that others could contribute also, which is why I chose the 155 Scenar as the test bullet.

Based on what I see so far, I'm putting my money on the 50/50 Patch-out + Accelerator. The liquid is very blue. I think it is more representative of cleaning with that combo than just coating the bullet. You're only putting a patch of each through, so coating a bullet with Accelerator and then drowning it in Patch-out maybe isn't a good comparison.

 

[guapo]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Would be interesting to see what happens to barrel steel when left on also. If you would be willing to add it to the the test I could send you a barrel or cuts of one to make it easier. lmk whatcha think. I will try the copper test for now with the cleaners I have here.

1st one: Gunzilla-just started it with a sierra 180gr spitzer. We shall see.....

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Well, I would want to re-use the same solution instead of wasting more. It would also be interesting if everyone was using samples from the same barrel. Can you cut off sections about 5/16" long?

 

[guapo]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

No problem. My saw is at a friends house right now but I will get by there this weekend. PM me your addy and I will send out some chunks. Just let me know how many you would like.

 

[JRose]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Surely the Sweets fairs better than that.. Barrel companies point it out by name when refering to cleaning soak times...

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Weight after 3 1/2 hours. Each bullet taken out and wiped off well. Hollow point blown out with compressed air.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Boretech Eliminator</span>

No detectable change in weight. Bullet slightly etched.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Butch's Bore Shine</span>

0.1 gr. lighter. Bullet etched and rough looking

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out</span>

No detectable change in weight. Very slight etching.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (only coated the bullet with accelerator)</span>

0.1 gr. lighter. Slight etching.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix)</span>

0.2 gr. lighter. Etched, but not as rough looking as BBS.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ballistol</span>

No detectable change in weight. No etching visible.

Left-to-right (CW): BTE, BBS, PO, PO + Acc., PO/Acc. 50/50, Ballistol

And the test goes on...

 

[postban]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

interesting, thanks for doing this

 

[McCrazy]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Definitely a cool test so thanks for doing it kombayotch. I think the barrel test wil be even more enlightening as a lot of people want to know how bad cleaning solvents jack up guns if some is left in the receiver or barrel. I've heard Hoppes and especially Sweets can be pretty harsh if not removed quickly. Of course actual testing of some sort is much better than non-quantifiable word of mouth

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I'll try some good old Hoppes #9 and Remington 40X later today.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Morning observations (no time to weigh) Going on 12 hours:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Boretech Eliminator</span>

Liquid same shade of blues as last night. Bullet doesn't look any more etched than it did last night. My impression is that whatever was dissolving the copper has all been consumed at this point.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Butch's Bore Shine</span>

Liquid has gotten considerably more blue and dirty. Can't see any difference since bullet was already well etched last observation.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out</span>

Liquid now has some blue to it. Bullets has been etched more.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (only coated the bullet with accelerator)</span>

Liquid is more blue than above. Bullets has been etched more.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix)</span>

Liquid even a darker blue, looks thicker too. Can't see any difference since bullet was already well etched last observation.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ballistol</span>

Liquid is thicker with a shade of green to it. Doesn't look like the bullet has been etched much though.

And the test goes on...

 

[8shots]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Thanks for your efforts, keep posting.

 

[angeldriver]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Dropping a 175gr Berger in Montana Extreme 50 BMG. Will post photos and weights when complete.

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Cool test.

Personally I prefer Boretech because there is no odor/chem. smell (ammonia) and supposedly bio degradable -although less of a concern for me. It's what I use only when I need to remove some copper fouling, which isn't all that often as I don't like wasting bullets with fouling shots. The rest of the time it's Hoppe's #9 and maybe a little Kroil for carbon and powder residue.

I expect Butch's to be more aggressive and act more quickly and thoroughly.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Since switching from a factory tube to a SS Rock 5r, copper has not been an issue, very little at all comes out, and I only clean every 250 rounds or so.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Weight after 24 hours. Each bullet taken out and wiped off well. Hollow point blown out with compressed air.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Boretech Eliminator</span>

0.1 gr. lighter. Bullet slightly etched, but shines a bit.

Not what I expected given the way it started off. In the beginning, copper removal looked to be quite a bit more aggressive than BBS up to when I checked it at 1/2 hour (based on amount of blue comming off). At 3 hours, BBS had overtaken BTE in terms of blue color. It reacts with the copper quickly, but also loses it's strength quickly. My impression is that for short soak times (5-15 min.), this might remove more copper than BBS if you kept pushing fresh patches down the bore. Seems pointless to soak it for any length of time.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Butch's Bore Shine</span>

0.4 gr. lighter. Bullet etched and rough looking... also looks dirty compared to others.

Given some time, BBS clearly removes a good amount of copper. I think it gave a rougher surface than all of the other products because the precipitate seemed to from on the surface of the bullet and stay there, whereas with the other products it was disolving into the liquid. I live in and apartment, so I'm really not wild about the smell.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out</span>

0.1 gr. lighter. Bullet etched lightly (texture similar to the surface of an AR-15 receiver).

I was quite disappointed with this stuff on its own. It clearly needs the accellerator to be effective as an "at the range" cleaner.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (only coated the bullet with accelerator)</span>

0.2 gr. lighter. Looks identical to above.

I realized after the test started that this wasn't really representative of how these products are used. But, it does show that the accelerator does have an effect even in smaller concentrations.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix)</span>

0.4 gr. lighter. Looks the same as two above.

The fact that this foamed right away tells me that this is a better test, since thats what happens when its used in the barrel. This stuff turned a dark blue right away.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Ballistol</span>

No detectable change in weight. Bullet looks a tiny bit frosty.

This can did not say "cleaner" on it, but "sportsman's oil" I seems more like a CLP product than a dedicated cleaner. I bought it because the store owner said it was the best thing he had ever used and that it "got rid of copper". I suppose its possible that it acts like Kroil and penetrates under it since it does say that its a penetrating oil on the can. It sure doesn't dissolve the copper.

Left-to-right (CW): BTE, BBS, PO, PO + Acc., PO/Acc. 50/50, Ballistol

Left-to-right: BTE, BBS, PO, PO + Acc., PO/Acc. 50/50, Ballistol


A few problems I had that may have affected results:

1) All of the products evaporated somewhat during the test. I covered each bullet with liquid initially, but in the end, the tops were all exposed. I recommend doing this experiment with containers that have lids. This evaporation may have effected the results.

2) BBS and BTE both attacked the glue in thier paper cups and I had to tranfer them to platic cups after the 3 1/2 hour weighings.

3) I tried to use the least amount possible so that I wouldn't waste a ton of cleaners on this experiment. I didn't anticipate that much evaporation. Having more liquid surely would have affected the results. It is entirely possible that some of the products got comsumed and were no longer reacting with the copper part way throught the test. I think this was the case with the BTE and 50/50 PO + Acc.

Even with these hick-ups, I still think Patch-out with the Accelerator is the best of the four based on the sum of my observations during the test. I will use them in combination with Carb-out until I find something better. Once I go through the BBS and BTE, I'll probably order some of those KG products and run another test.

 

[guapo]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

After about 22 hours in Gunzilla still nothing but a shiny bullet. Even scraped a little line with a exacto to help it get started.

Just started a new one with RB17. Says its for lead and copper so we shall see.

 

[guapo]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

35 minutes in RB17 and bullet appears heavily etched! Both copper and lead are showing etching. Just tossed in a beat up carrier key for the hell of it. Will get a pic up as soon as I can get the F'n cammera to work!

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Hoppes #9 was not very good...but it cleaned the bullet real nice.

I'm out of the # 9 Benchrest...I know it works better.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Well cleaning with them side-by-side over the weekend pretty much confirms those results. BTE makes a lot of blue color on the patches, but doesn't actually take much copper off. It takes a lot more passes for the blue to stop. Between it, BBS and PO+ACC+CO, it was the worst at removing the copper. BBS wasn't much better in sort term use. PO+ACC+CO took the least amount of patches to get out the copper.

Once I run out of BBS and BTE, I'll get some KG-12 and KG-1 and run this little test again. PO+ACC+CO vs. KG-12 + KG-1

 

[bcr229]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Thanks for the info.

 

[Zoli818]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

good info...
i always used shooter choice&butchs bore shine but lately i started using Montana extreme solvent it was on sale on midway so i got bunch4oz bottle to try out and it works good and fast

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Drop a bullet in it and share the results.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I don't clean anymore, wastes my time since my groups havn't changed eaither. I cleaned my LMT once since I bought it last summer. That was after the first 5 rounds. My 308 with rock 5R has a few hunderd rounds down it since last cleaning. Still can't see any accuracy diffrence. Come to think of it, I havn't cleaned a single bore in months now. Ran a patch with oil on it when I know I won't shoot that gun again for a while.
I thinking cleaning does more damage than shooting

 

[angeldriver]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

New bottle of Montana Extreme 50 BMG (copper killer) - surprised the hell out of me, no notable change in weight. Measured with an Acculab.

Need someone to verify with their own test. Cant be true....

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Was it a hollow point? Is there still solvent in the hollow point?

I opened up the point with a punch to make sure that it was all draining out and that I could see that it was empty. I also blasted it out with a can of compressed air to make sure.

 

[angeldriver]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

It was a hollow point, I did use compressed air. I will weigh again, it has been a few days, evaporation should have taken care of the rest if any.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so many of you have probably seen the famous bullet soaking tests floating around the web. Such as this:

http://www.cleenboreusa.com/kg/kg12testresults.asp

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... I'll get some KG-12 and KG-1 and run this little test again. PO+ACC+CO vs. KG-12 + KG-1 </div></div>

What?
The 600 pound gorilla didn't get invited?

I have been using KG-12, and it is better than 50BMG, Butch's Bore Shine, Pro Shot Copper Solvent II, Calhoon's GT-40, Shooter's Choice, Sweet's 7.62, etc, but not as much as they are better than Foul Out.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I started with what I had on hand...

If you have some KG-12, throw in a bullet and share the results. There are plenty of threads on here with people saying what solvent they use/like. The idea here is to quantify the effectiveness in a measurable way.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I assume you want a Barnes copper bullet washed, rinsed, dried, weighed, and soaked in K12 in a paper cup.

How deep?
What area exposed?
Half submerged?
How long time?
What temp?

Just rinse in water and dry before weighing the change?

 

[konabully]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I recently switched over to using KG- 12 and it has worked wonderfully with great results. The copper disappeared with hardly any effort. The odd thing is that it's water based and it doesn't give the tell-tale blue on the patch, it's still a piss yellow so you'll need a flashlight to check to know when to stop. Out of curiosity, a friend left a penny in a small cup of KG -12 overnight. It disolved the copper and left just the zinc core. Modern pennies are around only 2% copper plating though. I'll try an 1981 or older penny next time since they're about 95% copper.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

And she who must be obeyed can't smell it.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume you want a Barnes copper bullet washed, rinsed, dried, weighed, and soaked in K12 in a paper cup.

How deep?
What area exposed?
Half submerged?
How long time?
What temp?

Just rinse in water and dry before weighing the change? </div></div>

I used 155 Scenars with the tips opened up. Weighed them and then put them in a cup and added enough solvent to submerge the bullet (about 1/16" over the bullet). Let them soak at room temperature for 24 hours. Then rinse off and blow out the tip with compressed air.

 

[marku]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I use KG12 and it works great. Its what Jered at PAI told me to use when I first got my 6.5-284. It works very, very well.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Today I was at the range and traded my big bottle of Boretech Eliminator for some:

-More Patch-Out
-More Butch's Bore Shine
-Enough CR-10 to run a test
-Tetra Copper Solvent
-Montana 50 BMG

Just started running another test...

Here are the results after about 3 minutes:

CR-10, 50 BMG, Tetra, 50/50 Patch-out + Accelerator

I got some clear chemical grade containers with lids for this one to prevent evaporation and stinking up my apartment. This was a wise move, CR-10 is strong, but 50 BMG is horrendously potent.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

CR-10, 50 BMG, Tetra, 50/50 Patch-out + Accelerator

Weight after 3 hours. Each bullet taken out and wiped off well. Cleaned with alcohol. Hollow point blown out with compressed air.

<span style="font-weight: bold">CR-10</span>

No detectable change in weight.

<span style="font-weight: bold">50 BMG</span>

No detectable change in weight.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Tetra</span>

No detectable change in weight.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix)</span>

0.3 gr. lighter.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Multium</div><div class="ubbcode-body">New bottle of Montana Extreme 50 BMG (copper killer) - surprised the hell out of me, no notable change in weight. Measured with an Acculab.

Need someone to verify with their own test. Cant be true....

</div></div>
My impression from cleaning with it today and weighing just now is that this stuff is garbage. It makes your eyes water and stinks up the house, but that's about it. We'll see after 24 hours. I'm betting that, contrary to popular belief, BBS is stronger than both this and CR-10.

And the test goes on...

 

[jr81452]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

i'll run the kg-12 in the next day or two. i ran a test similar to this with it last year with a 40s&W 180gr zero jhp. according to my log, actual start weight was 180.6gr. weight after 24 hours was 179.2gr. i'll see what it does to an smk, and get pics this time. on another note, i put a dot of kg-12 on the outside of a highly polished (2000 grit followed by a good buffing) ss barrel to test if it would harm the bore. no visible damage under a 20x microscope after 24 hours. no effect on the bluing i tried it on ether.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Anybody tried Ace's 10% janitorial strength ammonia, some dish soap and a touch of glycerine? Try Fr. Frog's recipie, but add some glycerine to the mix. I use it all the time, and it functions and feels like Sweets. Ain't 8 bucks a bottle, either.

I'm a cheap bastard

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

CR-10, 50 BMG, Tetra, 50/50 Patch-out + Accelerator

Weight after 24 hours. Each bullet taken out and wiped off well. Cleaned with alcohol. Hollow point blown out with compressed air.

<span style="font-weight: bold">CR-10</span>

0.7 gr. lighter.

CR-10 certainly came from behind on this one. This is similar to the results with BBS. Slightly, stronger. Both didn't do that well in the short term, but dissolved quite a bit when soaked for a long period. Not sure if I would leave these in a bore overnight though...

<span style="font-weight: bold">50 BMG</span>

0.1 gr. lighter.

Definitely didn't live up to the hype...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Tetra</span>

0.1 gr. lighter.

I didn't have high hopes for this stuff either, so no disappointment.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Wipeout Patch-out + Accelerator (50/50 mix)</span>

0.5 gr. lighter.

Once again, in the short term, this stuff did the best. After running it twice, I have come to the conclusion that there is no benefit in soaking overnight with it. It does most of its work in the first 3 hours... probably sooner. It probably does need to be left overnight if no Accelerator is used though.

 

[Novadesigns]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Wow, this is really interesting stuff. All I have on hand is some Hoppes Benchrest and some Gunslick foam. I should try this with them and see what happens. I'm always wondering if this stuff is really working or not.

 

[Clark]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I am going out on a limb here, but I am going to guess about kombayotch:
a) first born
b) technical degree
c) declines promotions to management
d) does not have small offspring giving him day care germs at this time.
e) white male gun owner [too easy]

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

You forgot:

f) - Cell phone owner
g)- looks for things to do inside, during his turbulent time of "global warming", Indiana-style.
h) - already maxed out all his ammo boxes, again, because of "global warming".
i) - has a pletora of "culls", because that one drunken afternoon during "global warming", he loaded a mess of .223 with either H335 or H110, can't remember.
j) - would rather pull those drunken rounds than leave them in a pile somewhere on the "bad side of town".
k) - understands the ramifications of leaving "drunken rounds" on the "bad side of town".
l) - wonders if he could paint degreased rounds with a nice tri-color or pearl metallic...
m) - really does not like drug dealers, pimps and law breakers very much at all

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I don't own anything in .223 ...

 

[CS223]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

I've used the Wipe-Out & Accelerator combo for going on two years now, it gets the job done.

 

[angeldriver]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

Going to give wipe-out & accelerator and KG12 a try.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so many of you have probably seen the famous bullet soaking tests floating around the web. Such as this:

http://www.cleenboreusa.com/kg/kg12testresults.asp

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... I'll get some KG-12 and KG-1 and run this little test again. PO+ACC+CO vs. KG-12 + KG-1 </div></div>

What?
The 600 pound gorilla didn't get invited?

I have been using KG-12, and it is better than 50BMG, Butch's Bore Shine, Pro Shot Copper Solvent II, Calhoon's GT-40, Shooter's Choice, Sweet's 7.62, etc, but not as much as they are better than Foul Out. </div></div>

The 600 pound gorilla is en route... Ordered some KG-12 today. We'll see if it lives up to the hype soon enough.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Our own Copper Solvent Test

<span style="font-weight: bold">UNBELIEVABLE!!!</span>

Midway order with KG-12 arrived tonight. So, I started the test right away. Its piss yellow and has a funny smell. It isn't a strong smell, and definitely not ammonia. Not sure how I would describe it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">After 15 min.</span>

0.3 gr. lighter

<span style="font-weight: bold">After 1/2 hour</span>

0.6 gr. lighter

Bullet appears frosty... like the finish on an AR receiver. No color change in the liquid. In 30 min. its already nearly tied the best result any of the others did after 24 hours. None of the others had any detectable changes in that time. This stuff is for real!

I'll report the results after 3 hours and 24 hours for comparison to previous tests.


Pic from after 1/2 hour: