Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

[Tomekeuro85]

I'm looking for some opinions as to what would work better for my uses- A semi custom (trued action, match barrel, match trigger, bedded stock) fast twist .223 for the 80 amaxes, or a factory .308 with 178 amaxes.

This gun will shoot out to 800 max, steel and paper only.
Cost is a factor which is why I'm considering the .223... the 80 amaxes are $10 cheaper per 100 not to mention half the brass and powder cost.

I know the .308 will be way more resistant to wind but at double the cost of the .223, and I know many people do shoot the 75s and 80s out to 1000.

Would it be a hassle/problem to get the 80s to 800 out of a match barrel or would a factory slighly sub moa .308 work better?

 

[steelejones]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

I would be curious to hear the results of this question myself.

 

[JamieD]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

.223 all the way. It is by far my favorite training caliber and the caliber that we use at the shooting school for students to rent and run through the course to 1000 yards. It will help you learn the art without the extra recoil and cost. I actually took a 22" .223 to ASC in 2010 and took 8th shooting 75 A-max's even in winds that were 30MPH plus.

I have a little write up on what I call the PT-2 (in .223) and why it is my favorite on my website. Since then I have built many and never had a single shooter regret it.

Good luck,

JamieD

______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories

 

[turbo54]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know the .308 will be way more resistant to wind but at double the cost of the .223, and I know many people do shoot the 75s and 80s out to 1000. </div></div>

Don't get ahead of yourself! A properly twisted 223 with the heavy, high BC bullets is as good as a 308 or better.

The 308's only advantage over a fast-twisted 223 is "downrange energy". For some people, that is helpful when you want to take out critters at range. For you, the only advantage to the 308 will be a more visible dirt splash when you miss.

I think you're VERY well advised to stick with a 223. However.....consider a 223AI if you're a reloader. The 223AI is pretty darn badass, and only consumes a *little* more powder. It will certainly outperform a 308 ballistically.

 

[Cegorach]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

I recently picked up a .223 for an inexpensive, center fire practice rifle. It is without a doubt one of the better choices I have made in a long time. Being able to shoot a lot very inexpensive reloaded 223 is fantastic practice.

As turbo54 said, I would also take a look at .223 ai. I am having mine punched out for added brass stability and a little extra performance.

 

[Kilmore]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

If you had asked me this question last year I would have answered .308.... After having shot an HCS Mk12 Mod01 5.56 18 inch barreled rifle I can safely confirm that the 5.56 using 77 grain BH Mk262 is a good choice out to 1000 yards. I have shot some good groups to 1200 yards with 8-10 mph .25 winds and the bullet was still ballistic at that range. Given the accuracy, weight savings, and cost of the .308 vs .223 I am now shooting the .223 for ranges less than 1300 yards. For a military weapon I would lean toward a .308 due to the lethal characteristics of the 7.62 Beyond that range I will be breaking out my .338 Lapua. Just my .02, Kilmore.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

I have a REM700 sps tactical it shoots 77smks very well out to a beyond 800yds , when I shoot it out I will be putting a quicker twist tube on it , I am thinking of going to 223Ai


So one more for 223

 

[Big Cal]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

For paper punching and ringing gongs I'd go the .223 its just cheaper and easier to shoot so less chance of a flinch when you shoot it. If you can afford more ammo and can put more rounds down range without the shoulder pain you'll learn more about long range shooting and become a better shot in the long run then if you want to smash game get something bigger then

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

This is a great idea, one I embarked upon a year or so back. I wanted an economic long range precision rifle, I went the .223 route, since I already had a .308. If you are really interested in the details I suggest you read the build thread in my sig, but I'll sum it up.
Remington 700 trued action with a 20 inch Kreiger 7.7 twist barrel (1.3 straight contour) and a bunch of other tasty little additions(Timney,PTG,CDI,AI,EGW). Topped off with a Vortex Viper PST 4-16X50 MIL/MIL, and threaded for my suppressor.
The results summed up: Awesome performance!! I shoot the 75 Amax exclusively, longest hits to date are 5rnds on an 18X24 inch steel at 1260yds on a breezy summer desert day. It's an absolute joy to shoot, zero recoil(19lbs+suppressor=

) and accuracy with the Amax is better than I had hoped.
Good luck with your project!!

 

[Graham]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

.223 for sure.

Build a 7-twist bolt gun to shoot 80gr VLDs from the magazine. Cheap to shoot and 1000 yard capable.

 

[Beef82]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

I'm partial to .308s and shoot mine allot. If all I was going to do was shoot paper and steel and could only have one rifle I'd go .223 probably, cheaper to reload, abundant and varied factory loadings, less recoil, as good if not better accuracy, only slightly more wind sensitive.

 

[uncledog57]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

Put me down for .223 as well. I have a slower barrel, but just having a great time! Started rolling my own a it now shoots bug holes when i do my part! Was going to do work on it,(R700) but because of an honest smith (R D Precision) he felt the work was unnecessary if it is already shooting bug holes?
Now I'm going to build a 6.5 Creedmoor for my long range work.

 

[sinister]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This gun will shoot out to 800 max, steel and paper only.</div></div>

The .223. 1-7 or 1-8 are both good unless you're going heavier than 80-grain Sierras, Bergers, or JLKs. If you're going to 90-grainers then a 6.5 twist.

A longer barrel (26 to 30 inches) pushing an 80-grainer to 800 is a piece of cake, using half the powder of a 308, getting multiple case loadings, and sissy recoil. Good load for your kids to shoot and learn on as well, with reasonable barrel life.

A powder like VV 540 will get you really good velocities with reasonable pressures and not abuse your brass.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

From Palmetto State Armory, you can get 168 gr GMM .308 for $17. The .308 tends to have more barrel life, too. For that price, it would be tough not to go with .308 Win. Its a much more versatile round and you'll find as time goes on you'll find more uses for a rifle.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

Wow good information from the .223 crowd.

I debating a build here so enlighten me will you.

I'm thinking a Rock Creek or Bartlein 5R MTU(5R possible with .223's) in a 1/7 twist finished at 22 inches. I would like to be able to shoot 75 to 80 grainer’s.

 

[bm11]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .

I am totally shocked with the responses of this thread. I was totally expecting everyone to be all over a .308. Still, I feel the need to be the odd man out and recommend the .308, only because I feel that if you were going to only have one rifle, it is in my opinion the rifle to have. That, and at 800, I figure that the hits are going to be hard to see and to hear on steel using a 223, where you should still get pretty solid hits with the 308. Splash would be hard to judge with such a low energy bullet as well, I would imagine.

Edit- just went back and plugged both bullets into Shooter using Litz's G1 profile. Numbers are closer than I would have thought!

800 yards on both, 2000 density altitude, 80 degrees f with 10 MPH full value wind:
80 grain AMAX at 2700 fps (perhaps a bit optimistic)
7.3 mils drop
2.1 mils drift
354 ft/lbs of energy

155 Scenar at 2900 fps
6.4 mils drop
1.9 mils drift
841 ft/lbs of enery

 

[JamieD]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .

They fly with ease to 1000 yards, My easy on brass load with a 22" barrel is 24.7 grains of Varget (2900fps) with the 75 A-max and it really shot well at altmost 3000FPS at 25.5 grains of Varget. So I would say your numbers on the .223 might be a little slow. Compare it to the 168 Fed BTHP or the 155 A-max and the little .223 starts to lay a beating on the .308 with drop and drift. The 155 Scenar is a crazy BC bullet for the .308, FGMJ in 168 and 178 might be a more honost camparison.

JamieD


______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

Thanks guys for the awesome replies, I didn't expect the .223 to get so many fans. This is also the way I was leaning simply because it's all I feel I need.

Its definitely a plus that the recoil is non-existent... A heavier barrel and you won't even lose sight picture.


Coldboremiracle, I've read your write up several times, awesome work. Its also partially where I got my motivation. I wish I could make a stock like that!

Also, regarding this reply:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From Palmetto State Armory, you can get 168 gr GMM .308 for $17. The .308 tends to have more barrel life, too. For that price, it would be tough not to go with .308 Win. Its a much more versatile round and you'll find as time goes on you'll find more uses for a rifle. </div></div>

That is cheap as far as .308 FGMM goes, but consider that I can handload the same qty of 20rds in .223 for about $5. (calculated at about $.25 a round) And as the numbers show, aside from energy, there is almost no difference between the two except the massive cost difference.


I think my mind is made up... Look for my 7005R to be posted soon haha.

 

[308sako]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

For paper and steel only, .223 all the way. Stick to a 24" barrel and you can slam steel with 80 grain bullets and IMR 8208 XBR powder. Velocity is higher than 178 .308's.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomekeuro85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Coldboremiracle, I've read your write up several times, awesome work. Its also partially where I got my motivation. I wish I could make a stock like that!
</div></div>

Thanks, I got the idea from seeing another rifle myself, that gave me the motivation and then built my ideas ontop of it. BTW just build the .223, you'll end up getting a .308 someday anyways.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

Yeah you will most likely end up with a 308 someday anyway .

But for what you have stated you will use it for the 223 win's hands down , the 308 is a good round and I think everyone should own at least one 308 but the 223 is a brilliant little round as well and think everyone should own one as well .

Tom if funds are limited have a look at a Rem SPS Tactical in 223 a lot of them will shoot the 77smk's very well , some don't they are a 1 in 9 twist , they are a good platform to build a rifle on anyway .

But if you have the time and money to build/have built the way you want it do it you will not regret it .

 

[SIE107]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This gun will shoot out to 800 max, steel and paper only.</div></div>

The .223. 1-7 or 1-8 are both good unless you're going heavier than 80-grain Sierras, Bergers, or JLKs. If you're going to 90-grainers then a 6.5 twist.

A longer barrel (26 to 30 inches) pushing an 80-grainer to 800 is a piece of cake, using half the powder of a 308, getting multiple case loadings, and sissy recoil. Good load for your kids to shoot and learn on as well, with reasonable barrel life.

A powder like VV 540 will get you really good velocities with reasonable pressures and not abuse your brass. </div></div>

Having shot the .223 now for several years, and 5 national records with the .223. I can say for sure that you do not want to use a 6.5 twist barrel for the 90 grain pills. All you need is 7 twist. My barrel is a 7.2 twist rock creek finished at 30 inches.. though it will shoot the 90's, my gunsmith made the mistake of not throating it properly for the 90's.. but it does shoot the 75gr AMaxes at a blistering 3125 fps with 24 grains of H4895. I am in the process of building another .223 on a Barnard action with another 7.2 twist barrel. The reamer will be the same reamer drawing number as used by Laurie Holland of UK.

Also, the Sierra 90 grain bullet in .223 is not designed to be shot no faster than 2650 fps. When I tried the 90's last year. Due to the barrel not being properly throated, it created a compressed load with the Berger 90BT, which in turn caused a lot of elevation issues at 1000 yards. The next one will be correct and should help that problem with using the Berger 90 grain VLD. Correct powders are RL15 or Varget. Though a few are getting good results with VV N150, it does not generate the speeds that the two previous powders mentioned will obtain.

I have shot a couple of palma matches with my current .223 to have been winning the match after the 900 yard stage (being clean at 800 yards with 10 X's, and being down 1 point at 900 yards) only to get beat up at 1000 yards using the 75gr AMax bullet. The best that I have shot at 1000 with the 75gr Amax is a 198-8X but that is not the norm. Most times I have shot the .223 at 1K, the scores are in the mid 90's.

Berger 90gr VLD's, 7.2 twist barrel throated properly - finished at 30 inches and use a odd numbered land and grove bbl(ie, 3,5 or 7 lands and grooves), Lapua brass will be the ticket. Varget or Reloader 15 powder. Small firing pin that has been bushed and very very good brass prep and attention to detail in your loading process with get you good results out to 1000 yards with the .223.

 

[lazy21]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

what's recommended for a 1/8 twist? I'm excited to bring the old Ar back out and I've never shot it past 300. This rifle has sat in my safe for over three years without being shot. Time to beat the crap out of it.

upper is a mini sass 5.56

 

[SIE107]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

With the 8 twist. 80 grain pills will work great.. so will the 75 AMax.

 

[RFutch]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

Just a general question. Are 10 or 20 MOA bases needed for .223s at longer distances (like .308s)? I know every setup is different but is it a good thing to have?

 

[dbateman]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RFutch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a general question. Are 10 or 20 MOA bases needed for .223s at longer distances (like .308s)? I know every setup is different but is it a good thing to have? </div></div>

yes.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Out to 800- factory .308 or smith'd heavy gr .223?

Depends on the scope you use, but generally yes they are good to have. I have a 20moa on mine, and that gets me beyond the practical range of the .223.