Sidearms & Scatterguns P320 ADs

[sandwarrior]

Probably already late to the game (question), but why am I all of a sudden hearing these are 'out of the blue' just discharging. I don't have a link but the latest was a female detective who bent over and the firearm discharged down her leg and through her foot.

Anybody know anything more about this? I watched a YOUTUBE video from a guy saying, "It can't happen" Wondering WTF?

 

[CK1.0]

This is a known issue... They are better at making money than guns. Sig regularly uses its consumers as beta testers after they've already taken their money.

A quick search of "p320 goes off by itself" yielded all kinds of stuff:

Military Daily News

Daily updates of everything that you need know about what is going on in the military community and abroad including military gear and equipment, breaking news, international news and more.

www.military.com

One of America's Favorite Handguns Is Allegedly Firing On Its Owners

SIG Sauer’s P320 pistol has wounded more than 80 people who say they didn’t pull the trigger — and no U.S. agency has the power to intervene.

www.thetrace.org

Why are Milwaukee police Sig Sauer guns accidentally going off?

The Milwaukee Police Department reports "multiple unexplained accidental discharges" of the Sig Sauer P320 9mm, a gun all officers are required to carry, making for more than 1,600 firearms. Federal lawsuits show the problem goes beyond Milwaukee.

www.fox6now.com

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article269590051.html

The gun that can fire when you drop it

The Army got upgraded guns. For months, the public didn’t. Now two cops are suing.

www.cnn.com

 

[Zak Smith]

You're probably hearing about it now because of this new lawsiut--

20 FEDERAL AGENTS, POLICE OFFICERS AND PRIVATE CITIZENS SUE SIG SAUER FOR UNINTENDED DISCHARGES OF ITS P320 GUNS

/PRNewswire/ -- A group of 20 highly-trained gun users, including federal agents, police, and civilians, yesterday sued global gun manufacturer Sig Sauer for...

www.prnewswire.com

 

[Potsy]

So, is this like, a real thing? Or is this like the rash of people/cops shooting themselves and others with their issue Glocks 20 years ago because they were too careless or low IQ to know how to carry/use a pistol?

 

[hlee]

So, is this like, a real thing? Or is this like the rash of people/cops shooting themselves and others with their issue Glocks 20 years ago because they were too careless or low IQ to know how to carry/use a pistol?

Probably the latter.

Glock pistol boxes originally had a post molded in them, that went through the trigger guard to hold the gun in place when it was in the box.

Yeah, those guns were discharging “spontaneously” too. Gaston had underestimated American stupidity, assuming that owners would not store and transport loaded- and chambered- firearms in those boxes. If I remember the story correctly, he refused to change the design until a lawsuit was threatened. Details in Glock-The Rise of America’s Gun.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Law officers holster and unholster their guns numerous times a day, far more so, and in greater numbers, than the general public. It's a numbers things. But yeah, something's physically manipulating the trigger IMO. With that said, I have an M18 with a safety. Just how I like to roll.

 

[sandwarrior]

Law officers holster and unholster their guns numerous times a day, far more so, and in greater numbers, than the general public. It's a numbers things. But yeah, something's physically manipulating the trigger IMO. With that said, I have an M18 with a safety. Just how I like to roll.

Are the ones going off safetyless? As in a decocker? My CZ has that. The whole thing to me is if you cock it and it has reasonable trigger pull and isn't going off, something has to be tampered with for it to go off. The first lawsuits Sig faced were that it didn't pass the drop test at a certain angle. That was when they installed the 'striker safety'. As I understand it's something like the 1911's beavertail where something is depressed to release a stop lever in front of the striker. Something like that not an exact copy.

 

[SharpsNitro]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the “fix” to the P320 drop issue was to make the trigger lighter (mass of the part itself). The issue was the trigger had enough mass that if dropped at the right angle the resulting momentum fired the gun. I don’t recall any “striker safety” being added at the time.

As far as whether or not the above AD claims are true… the P320 is a 100% cocked design. Why would anybody carry one without a proper safety system like a proper manual safety or other method that would never have allowed the drop issue to happen?

 

[hlee]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the “fix” to the P320 drop issue was to make the trigger lighter (mass of the part itself). The issue was the trigger had enough mass that if dropped at the right angle the resulting momentum fired the gun. I don’t recall any “striker safety” being added at the time.

As far as whether or not the above AD claims are true… the P320 is a 100% cocked design. Why would anybody carry one without a proper safety system like a proper manual safety or other method that would never have allowed the drop issue to happen?

Yeah, the lightened trigger was the "fix" but if you look at the internals of a "first gen 320 compared to a current 320, there are more differences. This may be the internal safety mentioned above. I have an "uncorrected" 320. It has never dropped the striker unintentionally.

 

[Milf Dots]

It's mostly older litigation being reported as current news.

Also, many of today's best striker pistol designs are fully cocked, and they have proper safety mechanisms- Sig p320/p365, HK vp9/vp40, Beretta APX series, Walther PPQ and PDP.

Any time a large enough number of LE agencies switch pistol platforms, there are a rash of NDs being reported as "pistols just went off by themselves". It happened when agencies moved from revolvers to pistols, from hammer fired pistols to Glocks & MPs...

If Sig had made sure the p320 trigger assembly didn't gain bloat/mass during the transition from T/E to mass production, there wouldn't have been need for the "trigger upgrade" consisting of lighter lower mass trigger, striker, and revised sear. If that "voluntary upgrade" hadn't been necessary, we wouldn't be hearing about these lawsuits.

The p320 always had a striker safety as part of its design.

 

[CK1.0]

So, is this like, a real thing? Or is this like the rash of people/cops shooting themselves and others with their issue Glocks 20 years ago because they were too careless or low IQ to know how to carry/use a pistol?

Being retired LEO and having witnessed plenty of moron officers bounce rounds off the dirt when trying to qualify twice a year… for once, I don’t think it’s an user-error thing… those guns are trash.

 

[Jgault]

There are a few problems with the law suits. First most of the incidents in the suits I’ve seen described are fairly obvious user incompetence. The ones that come to mind are the female detective who’s gun went off in her purse(I’m mean seriously you have to be a special kind of stupid to put a striker fired weapon in a purse with loose objects), one was a officer who said it went off putting it on the desk but the video showed his finger was on the trigger as he was putting the weapon down, the Canada military incident they admitted they were shoving the p320 into holsters designed for their previous firearm the sig 226 I believe, and the officer at the school on video was clearly repeatedly pulling the gun half way out of the holster repeatedly just standing there for a reason to stupid for me to understand I guess. So while I haven’t read every case the ones that I have seemed to be clearly user error.

Combine that with the fact that these lawsuits are almost exclusively being claimed by police makes me suspect considering how popular the p320 series are for civilian use. It was mentioned on here that officers unholster and holster more than civilians, I’m not sure that is true. The p320 seems very popular in shooting sports as well, and collectively they unholster and reholster more in weekend shooting matches than most officers, and I haven’t seen a widespread problem with the gun in sporting circles.

If you look at police accidental discharge reports(which should be called negligent discharges) having another gun other than the p320 doesn’t solve the problem. The amount of accidental discharges yearly in departments that use Glocks or M&P’s are actually staggering, but if you’ve ever been to a gun range while the police are practicing you would understand why. I’ve rarely seen more unsafe people at a gun range, and in one instance our range owner had to tell a officer to leave. Another officer qualifying was literally hitting the ground in front of the target at around 15 yards and was DQ’d from the drill.

Last is just a personal observation, but the trigger on the p320 is much different than a Glock or M&P. It has much less take up and breaks pretty clean. For a example take a Glock(unloaded of course) hold the gun sideways and bang your finger back and forth inside the trigger guard purposefully hitting the trigger safety. You will notice it’s actually somewhat resistant to firing. On the P320 it will usually fire within the first few movements.

On my p320 I’ve tried everything reasonable to get it to go off with just a primed case and simply can’t. So while I have no doubt that due to the sheer number sold that some have had a mechanical related discharge, that is true with any firearm, parts will get worn and fail, and there will be parts manufactured that have a defect.

 

[hlee]

Last is just a personal observation, but the trigger on the p320 is much different than a Glock or M&P. It has much less take up and breaks pretty clean. For a example take a Glock(unloaded of course) hold the gun sideways and bang your finger back and forth inside the trigger guard purposefully hitting the trigger safety. You will notice it’s actually somewhat resistant to firing. On the P320 it will usually fire within the first few movements.

We must have very different 320s. I just measured it, and mine has 1/4" of take up before "the wall"- if one can call it that- and then an additional 1/8" of movement before it breaks. My G22 on the other hand, has just shy of 1/2" of total travel before the break. Unlike the 320, the Glock feels to have a pretty smooth trigger pull, with no discernible "wall" to stage on. I did do the $0.25 trigger job years ago. And to the "finger banging," enough to trip the 320 also trips the Glock. The Glock breaks at a hair over 4 lbs. The Sig 320 breaks at 7lbs.

Now, bag on it for being Turkish, but a striker fired pistol with a fantastic trigger is the Canik TP9Elite series of guns. A 2-stage-like trigger with a solid "wall" and a clean 3.5 lb break. Glock and Sig triggers are both trash by comparison.

 

[Jgault]

We must have very different 320s. I just measured it, and mine has 1/4" of take up before "the wall"- if one can call it that- and then an additional 1/8" of movement before it breaks. My G22 on the other hand, has just shy of 1/2" of total travel before the break. Unlike the 320, the Glock feels to have a pretty smooth trigger pull, with no discernible "wall" to stage on. I did do the $0.25 trigger job years ago. And to the "finger banging," enough to trip the 320 also trips the Glock. The Glock breaks at a hair over 4 lbs. The Sig 320 breaks at 7lbs.

Now, bag on it for being Turkish, but a striker fired pistol with a fantastic trigger is the Canik TP9Elite series of guns. A 2-stage-like trigger with a solid "wall" and a clean 3.5 lb break. Glock and Sig triggers are both trash by comparison.

I agree that stock on a trigger gauge my Glocks and the P320 are very similar in pull weight, but they just break differently. Personally I carry a Glock for that very reason even though I’m a slightly better shot with the P320. It’s personal preference but on stock guns the difference in the two triggers to me are night and day, I’m not saying one is bad, as I like both, just different, one the Glock suits my preference much better for a carry weapon(Well I actually carry a Shadow systems, which is pretty much a Glock but have a few Glocks as well). Concerning the ease of firing I believe that has more to do with the Glocks(and other models) trigger safety verses the pull weight.

 

[CK1.0]

Whether true or BS, personally, I think a fully cocked striker is a terrible idea for a duty or carry weapon, it just leaves no room for mechanical error. I also don't think many of us would love the idea knocking around all day in and out of vehicles and such with a charged AR, saftey-off, slung around our necks (almost the same thing).

Then you add in Sig's troubling history of doing things half-assed since the P226 came out a few decades ago and IDK... I mean the P250 was a total failure, performance-wise and financially, and then, by coincidence, a company woefully low on industry success for a couple/few decades figures out how to stuff some guts into the old failed P250 frames a couple/few years later, just in time to secure some huge contracts after sinking a bunch of money into new USA-based manufacturing facilities. The P320s still have the cut-out for the P250s shitty DAO hammer, the frames are more than likely made on the same machines made for the failed P250 roll out.

While some/many of the police cases may be BS, a couple of them sound close enough to being true to be worrisome, and, I've heard some things about them acting spooky from a couple of hardcore USPSA shooters who switched platforms even though they were kicking ass with them (and that matters more to me).

IMHO if one wants to get something cool, a fun gun with a sick trigger... get a CZ/1911. A duty or carry weapon isn't a fun gun, it's a tool, and like it or not, we still live in a Glock world.

 

[gopherslayer]

It helps to use the correct holster

 

[SharpsNitro]

Whether true or BS, personally, I think a fully cocked striker is a terrible idea for a duty or carry weapon, it just leaves no room for mechanical error. I also don't think many of us would love the idea knocking around all day in and out of vehicles and such with a charged AR, saftey-off, slung around our necks (almost the same thing).

Then you add in Sig's troubling history of doing things half-assed since the P226 came out a few decades ago and IDK... I mean the P250 was a total failure, performance-wise and financially, and then, by coincidence, a company woefully low on industry success for a couple/few decades figures out how to stuff some guts into the old failed P250 frames a couple/few years later, just in time to secure some huge contracts after sinking a bunch of money into new USA-based manufacturing facilities. The P320s still have the cut-out for the P250s shitty DAO hammer, the frames are more than likely made on the same machines made for the failed P250 roll out.

While some/many of the police cases may be BS, a couple of them sound close enough to being true to be worrisome, and, I've heard some things about them acting spooky from a couple of hardcore USPSA shooters who switched platforms even though they were kicking ass with them (and that matters more to me).

IMHO if one wants to get something cool, a fun gun with a sick trigger... get a CZ/1911. A duty or carry weapon isn't a fun gun, it's a tool, and like it or not, we still live in a Glock world.

Well said. The 100% cocked striker designs creep me out and I don’t understand why so many people have fallen for them. I remember when the Walther PPQ came out and was lauded for a great trigger, I bought one and didn’t keep it long for reliability issues. Those where somewhere over 75% cocked, I think, and it was interesting to read they were ineligible for German police use as they have restrictions on service pistols based on the amount of pre-cocking.

 

[CK1.0]

Well said. The 100% cocked striker designs creep me out and I don’t understand why so many people have fallen for them. I remember when the Walther PPQ came out and was lauded for a great trigger, I bought one and didn’t keep it long for reliability issues. Those where somewhere over 75% cocked, I think, and it was interesting to read they were ineligible for German police use as they have restrictions on service pistols based on the amount of pre-cocking.

I think the love affair with fully cocked strikers (or allegedly ~75-80% or whatever, like Walther and S&W claimed with the PPQs and M&Ps) is the designers being able to get a really good trigger-feel into a relatively cheap (~$500 per unit) gun, without any of the expense of having to have a human fit any parts or any added "complexity". Plus, most cops don't know dick about shooting, and the trainers at most agencies are ~10 years behind the curve or more. Officer qualifying scores going up due to the fully cocked striker (and resulting easier trigger) probably stroked enough egos for them to miss the boat on the safety issues that come with that.

For whatever reason, many goofballs think hammer-fired guns are scary and too complex for a user to work on... while at the same time, they love playing Barbie with their Glocks, slapping on Punisher striker-plates and mixing and matching fancy-pants cerakoted frames and slides, ported barrels and whatever else... some are even able to drop-in their $300 aftermarket triggers (that don't even get close to a shitty 1911) all by themselves lol.

I think anyone who's actually carried a gun for 10+ hours a day for any length of time can see that while the unfamiliar might say there's not much difference between a Glock's or an M&P/PPQ/P320/VP9, etc's trigger-system... in real life, duty/carry guns crash into seat-belts a zillion times over their lives, get dropped, get coffee spilled on them, you name it, and sometimes stuff even inadvertently touches the trigger... when you take all the other stuff into account, a fully cocked-striker starts to become a head-scratcher.

I wouldn't carry my CZ S2 cocked and locked for duty/EDC either (even though I'd sure as hell trust a crisp safety I've fit myself over whatever stamped-sheet-metal crap Sig pumped out and put in one of those P320s).

 

[pmclaine]

I had a fuck up with my AXG 320.

Put a full mag in than wanted to dock it back in the safe looking for the round to top off the magazine.

Being so butt heavy with the full mag it rolled backwards out of its place off the shelf and landed squarely on the back strap at the edge of the safe door opening.

I think if one was going to spontaneously fire it should have been than one but it didn’t.

 

[cruiserweight]

The so called accidental discharges can be worrisome, even though the vast majority of them seem to be user error. However, the exploding guns are real and far more worrisome to me. Just a couple days ago an FFL/Barrel Manufacturer sent me pictures of his exploded P320. Happened during a USPSA match. I have seen numerous pictures of this and now have two accounts from people I know and trust. Both were unmodified P320’s, both blew up from out of battery detonations during rapid strings of fire. Not exactly something to brush off

 

[CK1.0]

I had a fuck up with my AXG 320.

Put a full mag in than wanted to dock it back in the safe looking for the round to top off the magazine.

Being so butt heavy with the full mag it rolled backwards out of its place off the shelf and landed squarely on the back strap at the edge of the safe door opening.

I think if one was going to spontaneously fire it should have been than one but it didn’t.

I don't think they're all "time bombs" waiting to go off or anything... but if you take a hard look at the design, there's not much that has to go wrong in there for a lot to go wrong.

 

[CK1.0]

The so called accidental discharges can be worrisome, even though the vast majority of them seem to be user error. However, the exploding guns are real and far more worrisome to me. Just a couple days ago an FFL/Barrel Manufacturer sent me pictures of his exploded P320. Happened during a USPSA match. I have seen numerous pictures of this and now have two accounts from people I know and trust. Both were unmodified P320’s, both blew up from out of battery detonations during rapid strings of fire. Not exactly something to brush offView attachment 8120616View attachment 8120617View attachment 8120618View attachment 8120619

I've heard of a couple blowing up around my neck of the woods too, longtime USPSA guys who know how to load ammo correctly... and have also heard of mysterious intermittent unintended double-taps and guns shooting by themselves when being stopped hard in fast transitions.

All spooky stuff... and I don't believe in coincidence.

 

[chevy_man]

I've heard of a couple blowing up around my neck of the woods too, longtime USPSA guys who know how to load ammo correctly... and have also heard of mysterious intermittent unintended double-taps and guns shooting by themselves when being stopped hard in fast transitions.

All spooky stuff... and I don't believe in coincidence.

I've witnessed many experienced shooters at matches have total NDs and then claim it was the gun. They get going to fast and don't even realize they did it, but it's obvious to anyone watching.


Cops have been shooting themselves for years with every single pistol design. They're mostly incompetent when it comes to shooting.

But of course you blame the gun so it's not your fault. If the evil gun did it then they can't be in trouble. The blame game works wonders.

 

[sandwarrior]

The so called accidental discharges can be worrisome, even though the vast majority of them seem to be user error. However, the exploding guns are real and far more worrisome to me. Just a couple days ago an FFL/Barrel Manufacturer sent me pictures of his exploded P320. Happened during a USPSA match. I have seen numerous pictures of this and now have two accounts from people I know and trust. Both were unmodified P320’s, both blew up from out of battery detonations during rapid strings of fire. Not exactly something to brush offView attachment 8120616View attachment 8120617View attachment 8120618View attachment 8120619

Sure seems to be a lot of room in that chamber side to side. As far as exploding goes, most cartridges will explode with that much of the case sticking out of the chamber. Do you know, or can you show, where normal headspace is supposed to be with that pistol?

Bottom line here is I'm looking to see if someone can explain (mechanically or operationally) why these are going off. I've seen a lot of the incidents, but no mechanical or operational reason why they are.

 

[chevy_man]

Sure seems to be a lot of room in that chamber side to side. As far as exploding goes, most cartridges will explode with that much of the case sticking out of the chamber. Do you know, or can you show, where normal headspace is supposed to be with that pistol?

Bottom line here is I'm looking to see if someone can explain (mechanically or operationally) why these are going off. I've seen a lot of the incidents, but no mechanical or operational reason why they are.

Idiots. That's the real answer.


They don't just go off.

Do you remember how many people shot themselves with Glocks? And what a huge issue it was that they didn't have a safety?


They're going after a payday after someone figured out you could hold them at a specific angle and smash the back of the slide with a hammer and it would drop the striker.

 

[CK1.0]

Glock never had to do anything remotely like this: https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program

Bad designs can and do sometimes make it into holsters before they're fully vetted... Remember the Caracal pistols? They were designed by Wilhelm Bubits who had previously designed the Glock for his boss Gaston, along with the Steyr M and S guns, before being hired by a wealthy UAE firm to design the Caracal.

For a minute, the Caracal was the hottest shit out there, the "better than a Glock" everyone was looking for... until it was discovered that they weren't drop-safe, then poof, gone, they literally bought them back to destroy them.

The Sig is a popular gun and I don't want to into a never-ending argument about them... but personally, just from the perspective of some guy who's taken apart and put back together most everything out there, including the P320, I don't think it's all 100% bullshit. The design isn't exactly "deliberate", it's what you get when you try to design a fire-control group to fit in a legacy frame you've already got on the shelf to recoup from a previously failed investment.

Besides, even if everything design-wise is just fine (and it doesn't seem like it), we're still talking about a single-action gun with no mechanical safety (most variants anyways), and that's sketchy all by itself.

 

[chevy_man]

Glock never had to do anything remotely like this: https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program

Bad designs can and do sometimes make it into holsters before they're fully vetted... Remember the Caracal pistols? They were designed by Wilhelm Bubits who had previously designed the Glock for his boss Gaston, along with the Steyr M and S guns, before being hired by a wealthy UAE firm to design the Caracal.

For a minute, the Caracal was the hottest shit out there, the "better than a Glock" everyone was looking for... until it was discovered that they weren't drop-safe, then poof, gone, they literally bought them back to destroy them.

The Sig is a popular gun and I don't want to into a never-ending argument about them... but personally, just from the perspective of some guy who's taken apart and put back together most everything out there, including the P320, I don't think it's all 100% bullshit. The design isn't exactly "deliberate", it's what you get when you try to design a fire-control group to fit in a legacy frame you've already got on the shelf to recoup from a previously failed investment.

Besides, even if everything design-wise is just fine (and it doesn't seem like it), we're still talking about a single-action gun with no mechanical safety (most variants anyways), and that's sketchy all by itself.

So how is it vastly different than every other striker fired design? Just the lack of a passive safety?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

So how is it vastly different than every other striker fired design? Just the lack of a passive safety?

The Sig 320 striker is cocked 100% of the time, the Glock isn't. To make matter worse, it appears the 320 can be fired out of battery and there is a recent string of reports of pistols exploding.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

It's hilarious. We called this piece of shit gun out years ago. Told people to stick with glock or HK. Sig paid off a ton of influencers the mass of retards take like gospel.

Sig is an absolute dumpster fire trash company that only exists to seperate idiots from their money. They have been doing the same thing for just over 20 years, and people still fall for this.

Come out with a gun that is not refined. Use customers as beta testers. A few years down the road right when you think they might get it right, BAM. Discontinued and replaced with a new gen or product that is not backwards compatible. No support for legacy products. They do this with every fucking product they release and these dumb fucks still haven't figured out the game.

At this point anyone who buys their shit deserves to be pointed and laughed at.

 

[Milf Dots]

Glock invented the term 'voluntary upgrade' because Gaston Glock refused to ever use the term "recall".

Any objective look at striker fired pistols, history of the design issues, recalls and 'upgrades', shows that Glocks didn't get reliable until about mid gen3 when they arrived at their then current slide rail length. Prior to that Glock had at least 2-3 recalls for safety related issues.

Glock had the "six part upgrade" that addressed the drop firing issues exposed by the DEA during their testing- it's why the DEA removed Glock from consideration for service pistol at that time.

There have been pics and reports of hundreds if not thousands of Glock KBs/Kabooms and exploded Glocks over the years for unsupported chambers and/or firing out of battery.

"Glock Leg" is an actual term used to describe NDs.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

There is a huge difference between a gun going off on its own Vs a gun that goes off due to user negligence.

Glock is the most popular handgun on the planet, even moreso in LE and military circles. So it's obvious the most incidents with NDs will be with them.

Never seen a glock that was not fucked with ( messing with internals) just fire or fire out of battery. Plenty of people have had objects get in trigger guard ( like chinese buttons or jacket pulls) and when the gun is holstered, fires due to trigger being depressed. "Glock legg" is short for I'm fucking retarded and can't holster a gun.

This is negligence and incompetence. It's why people are trained to look when they reholster, to ensure nothing is hung up on gun. This can happen with striker or hammer fired guns.

Glock sure as fuck ain't perfect but it's also the most proven combat pistol in the planet from the illiterate conscripts to the best SMUs in the world. The gun is not the problem.

Sig is a completley different situation. Some are intelligent enough to grasp this, and some arent.

 

[Milf Dots]

So how is it vastly different than every other striker fired design? Just the lack of a passive safety?

It isn't- most of the newer striker pistols use a fully cocked design as well- S&W M&P, Springfield Xd, HK vp, Walther PDP and PPQ.

But even partially cocked strikers have enough energy to detonate a primer if the two safeties fail- including Glocks and Glock clones.

The hundreds if not thousands of Glock Kabooms, Glock Leg, cries of "it has no manual safety", didn't keep me nor millions of others from buying Glocks!

 

[Milf Dots]

Also, it's false to claim the p320 has no mechanical safety- it does have a striker safety. What the p320 doesn't have is a tabbed trigger drop safety. In hindsight maybe Sig should've implemented the bladed trigger safety, but millions of p320s and p365s have been sold to civilians alone, at least partly because shooters like the conventional, unadorned trigger face.

 

[CK1.0]

I think the thing that may be getting lost here is the difference between how a partially-cocked striker gun works, and how a fully-cocked striker gun works. In layman's terms:

With a partially-cocked striker design the striker at rest may actually still have enough pre-loaded power behind it to set off some primers if the striker was released due to a parts failure... that's not why the designs use a partially-cocked striker. In a partially-cocked striker design, when at rest, the partially-cocked striker spring is actually pushing back against the rest of the fire-control parts to hold them together and keep everything in the right place... this is where Glocks get their squishy triggers from, when you pull the trigger you are first overcoming the pre-load on the striker spring that's working against you, then/next cocking the striker fully while pushing the striker-block out of the way toward the end of the travel, until the disconnector "falls off a cliff" and disconnects the trigger bar from the striker tang and releases the striker, bang.

With a fully-cocked striker design, recoil (or racking the gun) fully-cocks the striker spring and leaves it ready to go... at-rest it is in a captured state... the trigger bar and/or fire-control is only in a "standby mode" ready to release the striker while simultaneously pushing the striker-block out of the way... the trouble is there's no spring-power like in the partially-cocked designs pushing back to help hold the fire-control parts in-place together and keep captured things from getting released... so if something that's not supposed to move in there moves for some reason or a cheap stamped-sheet-metal part isn't quite right, bang.

Any and all fully-cocked designs will have or at least be capable of having better triggers than partially-cocked designs.

But, there's no free lunch, which is why it's important to remember that the better trigger comes with a trade-off, an inherently less safe design.

ETA: It's worth noting that there are more than a few fully-cocked designs out there that don't have nearly the same reputation as the Sig... I'm not a huge H&K* guy since most of them have crap triggers, but they're built like tanks and the VP9 has a good reputation (and good trigger), the Caniks have been burning up USPSA for a few years now and I haven't heard about any issues, etc...

*BTW, since I mentioned H&K, if you have a P7M13 and/or P7M8 (the old H&Ks with nice triggers), that may need a new home for reasonable amounts, DM me lol.

 

[Milf Dots]

An observation: NONE of these p320s allegedly going off by themselves have done it while the pistol was in a safe, sitting on a table or desk, while in a gun case, or in a glove box... Only while being handled or worn by people.

I think if Sig didn't have the trigger mass/inertia firing issue with the p320, these cases of NDs would be perceived and treated the same way as the hundreds if not thousands of ND cases with Glocks, M&Ps, and all other pistols.

 

[Milf Dots]

Class action suit against Glock for unsupported chambers causing Kabooms and Glocks to explode

Glock Hit with Class Action Lawsuit Over Alleged Unsupported Chamber Defect in Certain Semi-Auto Handguns

Handgun maker Glock faces a proposed class action that alleges a defect makes certain model semi-automatic pistols "unreasonably dangerous and unfit for their intended use."

www.classaction.org

 

[sandwarrior]

It's hilarious. We called this piece of shit gun out years ago. Told people to stick with glock or HK. Sig paid off a ton of influencers the mass of retards take like gospel.

Sig is an absolute dumpster fire trash company that only exists to seperate idiots from their money. They have been doing the same thing for just over 20 years, and people still fall for this.

Come out with a gun that is not refined. Use customers as beta testers. A few years down the road right when you think they might get it right, BAM. Discontinued and replaced with a new gen or product that is not backwards compatible. No support for legacy products. They do this with every fucking product they release and these dumb fucks still haven't figured out the game.

At this point anyone who buys their shit deserves to be pointed and laughed at.

I see your self-righteous company basher is working.
However, do you know what is mechanically or operationally causing these accidental discharges?

 

[sandwarrior]

Class action suit against Glock for unsupported chambers causing Kabooms and Glocks to explode

Glock Hit with Class Action Lawsuit Over Alleged Unsupported Chamber Defect in Certain Semi-Auto Handguns

Handgun maker Glock faces a proposed class action that alleges a defect makes certain model semi-automatic pistols "unreasonably dangerous and unfit for their intended use."

www.classaction.org

One of Glocks big selling points was that it keeps firing. Unfortunately, it keeps firing when the gun is dirty and rounds aren’t seating in battery.

 

[Milf Dots]

I don't really have anything against Glocks- I own a few. But it's important to show the facts to counter the emotionalism.

I remember seeing a very recent thread at another gun forum that lists almost every Recall, 'Upgrade', etc. for pistols. Glock and just about every other respected brand have had recalls/upgrades for drop firing and other "NDs/ safeties" related issues. I'll see if I can find the weblink to it.

 

[mtwarych]

Try to imagine how many P320's there are out in the wild.

With all of the "It just went off by itself" crap that we keep hearing, it's amazing to me that we don't have dead bodies laying everywhere.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

One of Glocks big selling points was that it keeps firing. Unfortunately, it keeps firing when the gun is dirty and rounds aren’t seating in battery.

There is a difference between unsupported chamber and firing out of battery. This is really only an issue with non 9mm calibers anyway.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Glock invented the term 'voluntary upgrade' because Gaston Glock refused to ever use the term "recall".

Any objective look at striker fired pistols, history of the design issues, recalls and 'upgrades', shows that Glocks didn't get reliable until about mid gen3 when they arrived at their then current slide rail length. Prior to that Glock had at least 2-3 recalls for safety related issues.

Glock had the "six part upgrade" that addressed the drop firing issues exposed by the DEA during their testing- it's why the DEA removed Glock from consideration for service pistol at that time.

There have been pics and reports of hundreds if not thousands of Glock KBs/Kabooms and exploded Glocks over the years for unsupported chambers and/or firing out of battery.

"Glock Leg" is an actual term used to describe NDs.

Here is the lawsuit, the documented cases start on page 15. It's not a few questionable KB's in 20 years, it is literally more than a dozen pistols discharging in holsters in less than five years. There are a lot of other reports of AD's but the holstered incidents are more compelling and less open to interpretation. https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-5077-954a-3d85d9a22bc5/6424d6e1438a1.pdf.pdf

 

[atomic41]

Voice of reason:

 

[CK1.0]

Here is the lawsuit, the documented cases start on page 15. It's not a few questionable KB's in 20 years, it is literally more than a dozen pistols discharging in holsters in less than five years. There are a lot of other reports of AD's but the holstered incidents are more compelling and less open to interpretation. https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-5077-954a-3d85d9a22bc5/6424d6e1438a1.pdf.pdf

Dang... it gets crazier when you see it in print, I hope they make a Netflix show/murder podcast out of it or something:

"PLAINTIFFS’ COMPLAINT – CIVIL ACTION PARTIES
1. The Plaintiffs in this action are a group of highly trained and experienced firearms users whose lives were upended by a dangerously defective pistol: the Sig Sauer P320.
2. Upon the information discovered through research and document production, the Sig Sauer P320 is the most dangerous pistol sold in the United States market.
3. The Plaintiffs in this action are federal law enforcement agents, police officers, combat veterans, firearms instructors, and civilians who have dedicated significant portions of their lives to the safe use of weapons.
4. The Plaintiffs in this action trusted Sig Sauer to live up to its reputation as a designer and manufacturer of safe and reliable handguns.
5. The Plaintiffs in this action trusted Sig Sauer to live up to its promise that the P320 “would not fire unless you want it to.”
6. The Plaintiffs in this action were lied to and let down by Sig Sauer, falling victim to the dangerously designed and manufactured P320."

 

[sandwarrior]

Dang... it gets crazier when you see it in print, I hope they make a Netflix show/murder podcast out of it or something:

"PLAINTIFFS’ COMPLAINT – CIVIL ACTION PARTIES
1. The Plaintiffs in this action are a group of highly trained and experienced firearms users whose lives were upended by a dangerously defective pistol: the Sig Sauer P320.
2. Upon the information discovered through research and document production, the Sig Sauer P320 is the most dangerous pistol sold in the United States market.
3. The Plaintiffs in this action are federal law enforcement agents, police officers, combat veterans, firearms instructors, and civilians who have dedicated significant portions of their lives to the safe use of weapons.
4. The Plaintiffs in this action trusted Sig Sauer to live up to its reputation as a designer and manufacturer of safe and reliable handguns.
5. The Plaintiffs in this action trusted Sig Sauer to live up to its promise that the P320 “would not fire unless you want it to.”
6. The Plaintiffs in this action were lied to and let down by Sig Sauer, falling victim to the dangerously designed and manufactured P320."

Again, I'm not really caring what the accusations are, I'm looking for the mechanical reasons it's happening.

 

[steve123]

Great, Just Great!

Two weeks ago I bought a used Sig 320.

A week ago I tried it at the local steel match because it has a reflex sight on it. I used those same reloads (about 150 of them) in my wife's Canik earlier in the week with no problems and assumed they'd be fine in the Sig. Nope I had an out of battery BOOM during the first stage! I walked to my truck and left the match right then.

I got home and found out the extractor had blown off somewhere.

Anyone want to buy it, almost free, LOL

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Again, I'm not really caring what the accusations are, I'm looking for the mechanical reasons it's happening.

Poorly made components combined with marginal built in safeties. OOB discharges due to OOB safety being just a bit too generous when the slide is retracted. Firing pins slipping off Indian made sears. The list goes on. It was a safer pistols when it was the 250.