pad vs knuckle

[mattyboy72]

i watched lowlights youtube vid of the pad vs knuckle trigger pull, and i couldnt really tell any differences maybe other then it looked like maybe a bit more effort for the knuckle pull. and also the target groups didnt look to far off from eachother as well. anyone else share some info?

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: pad vs knuckle

There is no question that the pad is the only way to go.

People can argue all they want, its a waste of breath.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: pad vs knuckle

It depends, you can't say one size fits all. You have to try different trigger finger positions to see what works for you.

In trigger control, pistols and rifles aren't really that much different. Except the shooter barrel on the pistol magafies the error.

With a pistol you can adjust the sights by trigger finger position. If your shooting to the right, push your finger further into the trigger guard. (for right handed shooters). If your shooting left, pull the finger out of the trigger guards (how much depends on how much you want to move the impact).

Best way to see that this works is to dry fire with laser sights. When the hammer falls you can see where the red dot is. Move the finger deeper into the trigger guard and see what happens, then pull the finger out and see what happens.

It works the same way for rifle shooting. Maybe not to the extent but it works the same.

In rifle shooting, tape a laser to the barrel (steel the one your kid uses to harass cats). Dry fire with different trigger finger locations and see what works for you.

Also the gun makes a difference. A good example is shooting 1903a3's.

When I shoot a standard stock, I have a different finger placement then shooting a 1903a3 with a "C" stock.

Careful asking advice on the internet, what works for one may or may not work for others. You have to find what works for you.

Remember, Consistency is the name of the game.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Body Mechanics wise, there is a only one way to press the trigger truly "straight" back to the rear.

you can come back what you think is straight, but there is no way a "joint" can pull the trigger straight back. The pad at a 90 degree angle to the bore is the only way. Can the difference be small enough to not really notice, yet, but what does <span style="font-style: italic">ten thousandths of inch</span> do to your impacts at 100 yards if you move the rear of the scope base up that much ? In fact what does

In that video you watched there was a .5 MOA difference in the group size at 300 yards, we noticed no difference at 100 yards, so consider that and what a .5 MOA lose of accuracy at 300 yards would mean at 1000 yards.

Look at video Rob Leatham shooting a pistol and see what his finger looks like ?

Can you reduce the error any other way and call it good... sure, but you'll never be great because anything other than the pad at 90 degrees is physically impossible to move straight back without severely compromising your entire hand position.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Re: pad vs knuckle

i thought the point of that video was to show that there is no point of impact change when using pad or joint, not that one is better than the other, obviously the pad is the correct way.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: pad vs knuckle

No, clearly the point of the video was to show a difference, and that was a .5 MOA loss of accuracy using the joint.

 

[tullius]

Re: pad vs knuckle

This topic has already been hashed out here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2042900&page=1

 

[mattyboy72]

Re: pad vs knuckle

thanks for the info, its a lot of help, on my aics its a little awkward to get the pad on trigger as the side of my finger rides the stock, maybe ill experiment with hand placement next time out. u guys rock

 

[gruntbull]

Re: pad vs knuckle

For the amount of Marines I have preached the pad as the proper use, there are another group just as many that have used the knuckle with success. Now is that success as good as the pad? I will argue no, it isn't because, just as argued above mechanically your finger cant use a joint. (specifically the 1st or 2nd joint to go straight to the rear while holding a rifle)So if those that use the knuckle obtain the skill (which means PRACTICE) they could achieve greater accuracy potential through mechanically manipulating the trigger straight to the rear into the shoulder (which is ever so slight in the grand scheme)

Now would that equate to 2.5 inches of accuracy loss at 500 yds? I don't think I can give an exact number as each person is different.

 

[BadKarma47]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Ok I missed that vid, so I'm trying to visualize what it is you gentlemen are refering to, and have to say am feeling quite stupid at the moment. lol

 

[gruntbull]

Re: pad vs knuckle

BadKarma
Take a pin and use the pad (the ring left on the finger when you pick a booger is around the pad of the finger) and then the first and second joints. Move the pen as a trigger while keeping the rest of the fingers "wrapped" around an imaginary stock or pistol grip. Notice how the pen moves straight to the rear only when using the pad.

 

[BadKarma47]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Ah ok! Got'cha! It just so happened that I had a booger that needed picking, so your explination worked out great! lol

Thanx, grunt!

 

[gruntbull]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Common denominator, everyone has boogers, and every man picks his nose.

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: pad vs knuckle

I was going to post this as its own topic but i found this...

I was going to ask- In order to pull with the pad of my finger on my rifle, It is an extremely awkward position for my hand... I have fairly large hands and long fingers. Its more comfortable and more natural feeling to pull with the first knuckle from the fingertip. Is this still wrong? Am I supposed to bend my hand outward to pull with the pad anyways?

I read a bit how LL said its not necessarily about comfort because you can be comfortable doing it wrong, but at the same time, pulling with the pad for me is definitely awkward and uncomfortable because of how I have to bend my hand.

Tips?

I don't do bad at all shooting- I can hit sub moa groups out to 300 off a bipod consistently. (thats the furthest range I've shot on paper)

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[Rthur]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Like Franks video portrays, the trigger position should be built from the trigger back. I have large hands and after a couple thousand dryfires the new position will feel natural. I had a deep trigger position as a result of my bow hunting trigger. I am using a aics and could easily wrap my hand deep into the grip, but my accuracy suffers as a result.

 

[Tomekeuro85]

Re: pad vs knuckle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like Franks video portrays, the trigger position should be built from the trigger back. </div></div>

I'm going to try that... Place my pad on the trigger and find a hand grip position that fits right.

 

[SPAK]

Re: pad vs knuckle

It will take some getting used to....dry fire is your friend...

Don't worry too much about the hand grip on the rifle. On certain stocks I don't have a whole lot of hand grip on the rifle, other stocks I have more of a grip. Just enough to control the rifle.

The important part is building your position from the finger back with the pad at a 90.

 

[jaydoc1]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Some even have to lay their thumb of their grip hand alongside the stock rather than wrapping it around the grip in order to achieve the proper trigger finger angle.

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: pad vs knuckle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaydoc1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some even have to lay their thumb of their grip hand alongside the stock rather than wrapping it around the grip in order to achieve the proper trigger finger angle. </div></div>

I prefer this technique. Having large hands and fingers, it seems I can control the trigger much more consistently and building my 90 deg is much easier when I lay my thumb on top of my index finger. For me, this technique is more comfortable and is more easily repeatable.

Sometimes before I fire a round off, I will double check my firing hand by totally removing it from the rifle right before I decide to break the shot. Slack already taken up on the trigger, literally right at that last little bit.
If that reticle moves when I remove my firing hand, I know I'm set up improperly and I will probably pull the shot.

Good thread, btw

 

[lamarbrog]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Almost since I first learned to shoot, I have been using the pad of my finger because I was told it gave better leverage and would make my trigger pull smoother.

I always found it awkward, uncomfortable, and after a high round count shooting session my knuckles would often ache from contorting my finger in such an awkward position. If I "start with the pad and swap around" my wrist becomes contorted, so my wrist hurts instead, and also interferes with normal use of the safety. However, I was told this was "the only way" so I did it.

I often watch training films as refreshers... a few days ago, I watched this video made by the CMP and Army...

http://youtu.be/-DQ1v0YtWko?t=2m55s

I tried the method that is taught in this video, and all I can say is that my steadiness during trigger pull has increased dramatically... I have not done any side-by-side grouping comparison yet, but I can visibly see my sights moving less as I squeeze the trigger. If this is confirmed by better groups next time I am able to go to the range, I will begin trying to break myself of the habit of using the pad and will convert to this method.

Just my $.02.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: pad vs knuckle

In building the position from the trigger back my only 'concern' is that it flies in the face of safety - not putting your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

I have rifles with different stocks - .22lr monte carlo, K31 etc and trying this approach is fine for dry firing but on the non-pistol grip rifles it's not proving to be that feasible. I've ND'd during the dry firing a couple of times each practice session as I'm trying to build the position from the trigger back (that's when I realize I'm not using the safety as part of my dry fire process...!).

Any thoughts/hints?

 

[Awesymoto]

Re: pad vs knuckle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In building the position from the trigger back my only 'concern' is that it flies in the face of safety - not putting your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

I have rifles with different stocks - .22lr monte carlo, K31 etc and trying this approach is fine for dry firing but on the non-pistol grip rifles it's not proving to be that feasible. I've ND'd during the dry firing a couple of times each practice session as I'm trying to build the position from the trigger back (that's when I realize I'm not using the safety as part of my dry fire process...!).

Any thoughts/hints? </div></div>Yeah don't load your rifle...

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: pad vs knuckle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Awesymoto</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In building the position from the trigger back my only 'concern' is that it flies in the face of safety - not putting your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

I have rifles with different stocks - .22lr monte carlo, K31 etc and trying this approach is fine for dry firing but on the non-pistol grip rifles it's not proving to be that feasible. I've ND'd during the dry firing a couple of times each practice session as I'm trying to build the position from the trigger back (that's when I realize I'm not using the safety as part of my dry fire process...!).

Any thoughts/hints? </div></div>

Yeah don't load your rifle... </div></div>

hence I've only tried this dry-firing. I've always thought you keep your finger off the trigger, even when the safety is on, until you're ready to pull the trigger. How then do you safely, in the field, build a position from the trigger backwards?

 

[Hogstooth]

Re: pad vs knuckle

One of the problems with using the knuckle is the tendency to hook your finger around the trigger which will result in impacts at 9 o clock from center (for a right hand shooter).

Using the pad you can adjust the placement on the pad so that it IS comfortable and you pull the trigger straight to the rear.

As many people have stated already do this dry firing first and experiment with what works. This also goes with trying to start with your finger on the trigger and building your grip from there, also much better being done in dry fire till you get it down.

Also I don't know if Lowlights video shows it, is the importance of follow thru or once the rifle goes "bang" keeping your finger in place on the trigger till the rifle finishes recoil. This also means keeping your cheekweld and staying in the scope to observe your recoil pattern. Trying to watch the bullet impact the paper or target, this is sometimes hard to do, since most close their eyes when the gun goes bang.

 

[Beef82]

Re: pad vs knuckle

Closing your eyes when the gun fires is a flinch. Usually in anticipation/fear of loud noise and recoil and often accompanied by horrible trigger pulls and mysterious fliers. If you flinch you should probably work on that before anything else in the firing sequence or you'll never know what you're doing wrong.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: pad vs knuckle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In building the position from the trigger back my only 'concern' is that it flies in the face of safety - not putting your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

I have rifles with different stocks - .22lr monte carlo, K31 etc and trying this approach is fine for dry firing but on the non-pistol grip rifles it's not proving to be that feasible. I've ND'd during the dry firing a couple of times each practice session as I'm trying to build the position from the trigger back (that's when I realize I'm not using the safety as part of my dry fire process...!).

Any thoughts/hints? </div></div>

Two thoughts.

First, engage the safety.

Second, if you are tripping the sear then you are either applying too much pressure or running too light of a trigger.

The whole purpose of building the position from the trigger back is to place your hand in the correct position to support a proper trigger pull. Once you LEARN that position, then you can begin to practice going straight to that hand position while keeping your finger straight and off the trigger. When you then intend to fire and place your finger on the trigger it will be in the correct position.

I would also suggest working on the basics on ONE RIFLE at a time. Don't flip-flop between pistol grips and traditional stocks if you don't have your trigger skills down pat.

I have been really working hard on AR systems these last few months. It is something I have neglected in the past, so all my effort has been focused there. When I dry-fire with my AR10 I have the weapon on safe. Build my firing hand position from the trigger back. Get my grip, then place my finger straight and off the trigger. I then place the selector on fire and press the trigger at the bottom of my natural respiratory pause. I keep the trigger pressed to the rear for at least a two count. I extend my finger and mentally end the firing sequence before breaking position to cycle the action. However I keep my firing hand on the grip with my finger extended. I repeat the process of pressing the trigger for however long that string lasts. If for whatever reason I come off the gun, I place the weapon on safe. When I get back on the rifle, I clear it again then rebuild my firing position while the rifle is on safe.

This prevents an unintentional trigger pull.

Of course my triggers are all several pounds in weight and are not going to be tripped by the weight of my finger while building a position anyway.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: pad vs knuckle

On pad vs. knuckle....

I recently read an article in a professional publication (not a glossy newsstand rag) where a professional trainer advocated using the first joint to pull the trigger on a precision rifle. The reasoning given was that the knuckle allowed for more force to be exerted with less energy (shorter lever). She opined that some students had issues with their trigger fingers fatiguing over the course of the class, thus causing a loss of accuracy.

I will simply say that if you cannot repeatedly apply 3-5lbs of pressure with the tip of your index finger, then you may need to find a different hobby. I was doubly concerned since this was supposedly a LE trainer and I began to wonder what pull weight these officers pistols were set at.