Palma counour vs. Varmint
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Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Good question. I asked this same one quite a while ago and never received any scientific answers.
To me, it boils down to the obvious differences in profile near the chamber area; either a double radius with the varmint contour, or two sharp transition sections with the Palma contour. I'm just not sure if it means anything in the accuracy department.
It would be nice to see a side-by-side FEA of the barrel harmonics using these two chamber profiles.
Buying a barrel for that Mauser project of yours?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Varmint Contour</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Palma Contour</span>
Good question. I asked this same one quite a while ago and never received any scientific answers.
To me, it boils down to the obvious differences in profile near the chamber area; either a double radius with the varmint contour, or two sharp transition sections with the Palma contour. I'm just not sure if it means anything in the accuracy department.
It would be nice to see a side-by-side FEA of the barrel harmonics using these two chamber profiles.
Buying a barrel for that Mauser project of yours?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Varmint Contour</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Palma Contour</span>
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Hey Jason,
The Mauser project is the reason for the question- that and just a general lack of knowledge on the subject. I'm happy with the choice on the Sako build, just looking into other options for the Mauser, and trying to learn something.
This is what I find on the Bartlein site:
They're calling this a straight taper, which is also where they have their varmint profiles listed:
and this is what they're calling their Palma contour:
Two things I see immediately:
one:
The B dimension for the Palma never exceeds 2.5", while for the heavy varmint (#9) it's 5.0". To me, (as I learned from you) on the #9 profile this allows for more material around the chamber for large calibers, more bedding support under the barrel immediately in front of the action, and also allows material for a future set back.
two:
Weight differences; the heavy Palma even at 30" and the same muzzle end dia. is only 6.5lbs vs. 7.45 for the #9 varmint. I believe this to be the significant <span style="font-style: italic">obvious</span> difference, but I agree...it would be interesting to see an analysis of the two side by side.
Hey Jason,
The Mauser project is the reason for the question- that and just a general lack of knowledge on the subject. I'm happy with the choice on the Sako build, just looking into other options for the Mauser, and trying to learn something.
This is what I find on the Bartlein site:
They're calling this a straight taper, which is also where they have their varmint profiles listed:
and this is what they're calling their Palma contour:
Two things I see immediately:
one:
The B dimension for the Palma never exceeds 2.5", while for the heavy varmint (#9) it's 5.0". To me, (as I learned from you) on the #9 profile this allows for more material around the chamber for large calibers, more bedding support under the barrel immediately in front of the action, and also allows material for a future set back.
two:
Weight differences; the heavy Palma even at 30" and the same muzzle end dia. is only 6.5lbs vs. 7.45 for the #9 varmint. I believe this to be the significant <span style="font-style: italic">obvious</span> difference, but I agree...it would be interesting to see an analysis of the two side by side.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better.
Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. What are the effective differences between a heavy Palma vs. a heavy varmint contour barrel?
2. Why would you choose one over the other?
3. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?</div></div>
#1 None.
#2. The contours were developed for different shooting disiplines. BR and Palma. Weight being the main reason for the different contours HV, LV, HP, SP, and LP. Each class has to make weight, if they're over weight, they're out.
#3. Again, weight, that’s all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. What are the effective differences between a heavy Palma vs. a heavy varmint contour barrel?
2. Why would you choose one over the other?
3. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?</div></div>
#1 None.
#2. The contours were developed for different shooting disiplines. BR and Palma. Weight being the main reason for the different contours HV, LV, HP, SP, and LP. Each class has to make weight, if they're over weight, they're out.
#3. Again, weight, that’s all.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.</span>
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better. </div></div>Really?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.</span>
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better. </div></div>Really?
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.</span>
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better. </div></div>Really? </div></div>
Yeah really, as it relates to accuracy. If there's no measurable accuracy difference who would care? If you feel it's that important then have at it.
There have been plenty of test regarding harmonics and all that scientific stuff done before but what it always boils down to is how it shoots. No two barrels are the same so it kind of a mute anyway.
Like William said the only reason for the Palma barrels in the first place is to make specific weight for class but still keeping some measure of weight in the rifle. The barrels weren’t cut that way due to some test regarding harmonics.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.</span>
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better. </div></div>Really? </div></div>
Yeah really, as it relates to accuracy. If there's no measurable accuracy difference who would care? If you feel it's that important then have at it.
There have been plenty of test regarding harmonics and all that scientific stuff done before but what it always boils down to is how it shoots. No two barrels are the same so it kind of a mute anyway.
Like William said the only reason for the Palma barrels in the first place is to make specific weight for class but still keeping some measure of weight in the rifle. The barrels weren’t cut that way due to some test regarding harmonics.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.</span>
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better. </div></div>Really? </div></div>
Yeah really, as it relates to accuracy. If there's no measurable accuracy difference who would care? If you feel it's that important then have at it.
There have been plenty of test regarding harmonics and all that scientific stuff done before but what it always boils down to is how it shoots. No two barrels are the same so it kind of a mute anyway.
Like William said the only reason for the Palma barrels in the first place is to make specific weight for class but still keeping some measure of weight in the rifle. The barrels weren’t cut that way due to some test regarding harmonics. <span style="color: #FF0000">Duh.</span>
</div></div>Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question?
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certin conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Between the two you will see no measurable difference in accuracy. How's that?
<span style="color: #FF0000">I don't really think you're going to find anyone that has had the time or really cares what the harmonic differences in the two really are.</span>
Myself I like the looks of the varmint contour better. </div></div>Really? </div></div>
Yeah really, as it relates to accuracy. If there's no measurable accuracy difference who would care? If you feel it's that important then have at it.
There have been plenty of test regarding harmonics and all that scientific stuff done before but what it always boils down to is how it shoots. No two barrels are the same so it kind of a mute anyway.
Like William said the only reason for the Palma barrels in the first place is to make specific weight for class but still keeping some measure of weight in the rifle. The barrels weren’t cut that way due to some test regarding harmonics. <span style="color: #FF0000">Duh.</span>
</div></div>Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question?
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certin conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Wnroscoe is dead on.
I have something to add..
What looks good to you!!
I like I fat muzzle!!! The heavy Palma gives you this with much less weight.
Wnroscoe is dead on.
I have something to add..
What looks good to you!!
I like I fat muzzle!!! The heavy Palma gives you this with much less weight.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
I may be wrong, but some of the custom gun builders are using the palma contours because they need that steeper drop after the chamber area to accommodate night vision equipment.
I may be wrong, but some of the custom gun builders are using the palma contours because they need that steeper drop after the chamber area to accommodate night vision equipment.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
I've used the Badger EFR with the MTU contour barrels and they worked great. I know for a while Terry Cross used the HP and may still. It's another good contour as is the LV.
I've owned/built rifles with barrels from the Heavy Bull Sporter to a 1.250" straight. Other than weight I couldnt tell a difference in the accuracy. Now, for my rifles I use the LV 99% of the time but am really looking at a Heavy Bull Sporter with 6 heavy flutes for my hunting rifles. Why?.....weight, thats it.
With custom barrels I really believe that when you get up to around .700" at the muzzle it's more about whats inside the bore rather than the OD. They'll all shoot.
Look close and you'll see that the very popular MTU/M24 & LV are so close that it really wouldnt matter. Sporter contours are there to give the end user a choice and to try and match factory contours.
Bigger, larger diameter barrels are heavier and stiffer. This makes them easier to hold steady thus giving the illusion that they are more accurate. Simply another myth.
I've used the Badger EFR with the MTU contour barrels and they worked great. I know for a while Terry Cross used the HP and may still. It's another good contour as is the LV.
I've owned/built rifles with barrels from the Heavy Bull Sporter to a 1.250" straight. Other than weight I couldnt tell a difference in the accuracy. Now, for my rifles I use the LV 99% of the time but am really looking at a Heavy Bull Sporter with 6 heavy flutes for my hunting rifles. Why?.....weight, thats it.
With custom barrels I really believe that when you get up to around .700" at the muzzle it's more about whats inside the bore rather than the OD. They'll all shoot.
Look close and you'll see that the very popular MTU/M24 & LV are so close that it really wouldnt matter. Sporter contours are there to give the end user a choice and to try and match factory contours.
Bigger, larger diameter barrels are heavier and stiffer. This makes them easier to hold steady thus giving the illusion that they are more accurate. Simply another myth.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Aren't the Palma barrels generally smaller at the muzzle because they will have sights mounted there so with the extra weight the shooter gets better balance overall from the rifle?
Aren't the Palma barrels generally smaller at the muzzle because they will have sights mounted there so with the extra weight the shooter gets better balance overall from the rifle?
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
But isn't one of the problems with varmint vs palma contours you can't seem to get varmint contours any longer than 25".
But isn't one of the problems with varmint vs palma contours you can't seem to get varmint contours any longer than 25".
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aren't the Palma barrels generally smaller at the muzzle because they will have sights mounted there so with the extra weight the shooter gets better balance overall from the rifle? </div></div>
The muzzle is turned down to accomodate the front sight. The Palma contours were developed for that disipline and weight is the driving factor. As I dont compete in High Power or Palma thats as far as I can take you. It appears max weight is 6.5Kg or 14.63Lbs so maybe for the guys wishing to shoot longer barrels the lighter countors will allow them to do so and still make weight.
http://www.palma.org/USA/rules.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But isn't one of the problems with varmint vs palma contours you can't seem to get varmint contours any longer than 25". </div></div>
You can get barrels in any length you desire. I've had HV & LV finished at 30"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aren't the Palma barrels generally smaller at the muzzle because they will have sights mounted there so with the extra weight the shooter gets better balance overall from the rifle? </div></div>
The muzzle is turned down to accomodate the front sight. The Palma contours were developed for that disipline and weight is the driving factor. As I dont compete in High Power or Palma thats as far as I can take you. It appears max weight is 6.5Kg or 14.63Lbs so maybe for the guys wishing to shoot longer barrels the lighter countors will allow them to do so and still make weight.
http://www.palma.org/USA/rules.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But isn't one of the problems with varmint vs palma contours you can't seem to get varmint contours any longer than 25". </div></div>
You can get barrels in any length you desire. I've had HV & LV finished at 30"
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
On the HV barrels I like the fact that the shank is longer, giving more room for it to be re-chambered if you needed to do that.
On the HV barrels I like the fact that the shank is longer, giving more room for it to be re-chambered if you needed to do that.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question?
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certin conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
I have two things to say about your comments.
One - try not to read in to what is written on an internet web page. If you are "reading" a tone change then it may be that you asked a question and two well known gunsmiths gave you answers and then you seemed to question one of them as if you didn't believe him. Randy didn't have to give you any answer at all, he's not paid by this site to answer questions so be happy that any of these guys take time out of their busy lives to answer anything for us. Also, most of these experts that do DONATE their time to us for questions get asked the same questions over and over and over, so I bet that it can get a little frustrating.
Two - What has been found on this site is that a heavier barrel resists heat better on extended firing strings, resists recoil better due to the heavier weight, and looks better. Lowlight as done tests for accuracy degradation due to heat and has found that at least with his modern barrels that excess heat doesn't degrade accuracy at all. It may have long term effects, toasting the barrel sooner but not immediate.
So when trying to decide what profile barrel to get your main concerns should be weight and looks.
Personally, I like the varmint contours as they taper more gradually to the muzzle. I currently have an M24/M40 contour I like that a lot. The MTU contour is about as heavy as I would go and the Medium Palma is as light as I would go.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question?
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certin conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
I have two things to say about your comments.
One - try not to read in to what is written on an internet web page. If you are "reading" a tone change then it may be that you asked a question and two well known gunsmiths gave you answers and then you seemed to question one of them as if you didn't believe him. Randy didn't have to give you any answer at all, he's not paid by this site to answer questions so be happy that any of these guys take time out of their busy lives to answer anything for us. Also, most of these experts that do DONATE their time to us for questions get asked the same questions over and over and over, so I bet that it can get a little frustrating.
Two - What has been found on this site is that a heavier barrel resists heat better on extended firing strings, resists recoil better due to the heavier weight, and looks better. Lowlight as done tests for accuracy degradation due to heat and has found that at least with his modern barrels that excess heat doesn't degrade accuracy at all. It may have long term effects, toasting the barrel sooner but not immediate.
So when trying to decide what profile barrel to get your main concerns should be weight and looks.
Personally, I like the varmint contours as they taper more gradually to the muzzle. I currently have an M24/M40 contour I like that a lot. The MTU contour is about as heavy as I would go and the Medium Palma is as light as I would go.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
GOOD question.
Sometimes I think its prestige thing don't want to have my Palma Rifle with a Varmint conture.. that's for shooting dogs.. OHHH MY
Ya know Kinda like
O man i just had this new palma rifle built it has a RPA action Jewel Trigger 1-11 twist Heavy palma barrel, 95 Palma chamber{there is a difference in the chamber} using a like new set of redfield Palma sights on it.
NO not to knock the Palma shooters I love to put a sling on sometimes but not often. Just making a point.
GOOD question.
Sometimes I think its prestige thing don't want to have my Palma Rifle with a Varmint conture.. that's for shooting dogs.. OHHH MY
Ya know Kinda like
O man i just had this new palma rifle built it has a RPA action Jewel Trigger 1-11 twist Heavy palma barrel, 95 Palma chamber{there is a difference in the chamber} using a like new set of redfield Palma sights on it.
NO not to knock the Palma shooters I love to put a sling on sometimes but not often. Just making a point.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
I'm pretty sure that regardless of the profile you choose you can spec that "B" measurement out further if you want. I know a couple of people that do that just so they get more life out of the barrel by being able to set it back a few times before dumping it.
I'm pretty sure that regardless of the profile you choose you can spec that "B" measurement out further if you want. I know a couple of people that do that just so they get more life out of the barrel by being able to set it back a few times before dumping it.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question? </div></div>
You have no idea. If you think that was a condensending tone you better put your big boy pants on.
You asked for an answer and a scientific (opinion) and when you weren’t getting one that seemed to make you a little impatient. You don't like the answers you get, or got, don't ask the friggin question then.<----That would be a condensending tone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certain conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
Did you not read it? The only difference is to make class <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> for a particular class. Nothing says they have to use those profiles they can use any profile they want as long as they make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are easy to cut easy to control the <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> removed and still keep the rifle as heavy as they can.
The difference in the light Palma and the HV or M40 is again <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>, has nothing to do with accuracy. It’s to maintain <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma shooting needs to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> but keep the rifle as heavy as they can for stability, stability is accuracy for any type of shooting.
Yes there is a difference and it has nothing to do with harmonics or science it has to do with <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> and making class simple as that. No two barrels are the same, one could get different results from two barrels of the same contour and science has nothing to do with it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question? </div></div>
You have no idea. If you think that was a condensending tone you better put your big boy pants on.
You asked for an answer and a scientific (opinion) and when you weren’t getting one that seemed to make you a little impatient. You don't like the answers you get, or got, don't ask the friggin question then.<----That would be a condensending tone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certain conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
Did you not read it? The only difference is to make class <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> for a particular class. Nothing says they have to use those profiles they can use any profile they want as long as they make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are easy to cut easy to control the <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> removed and still keep the rifle as heavy as they can.
The difference in the light Palma and the HV or M40 is again <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>, has nothing to do with accuracy. It’s to maintain <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma shooting needs to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> but keep the rifle as heavy as they can for stability, stability is accuracy for any type of shooting.
Yes there is a difference and it has nothing to do with harmonics or science it has to do with <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> and making class simple as that. No two barrels are the same, one could get different results from two barrels of the same contour and science has nothing to do with it.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
I've read most of the post and will add my .002.
I tell guys this over and over! The contour to me has only a little to do with accuracy for the most part! It only effects overall weight of the gun. To me the straighter the barrel blank, the more uniform the bore and groove sizes over the whole length of the barrel and the more uniform the twist the more forgiving the barrel is going to be regardless of the contour.
The old saying of a heavier barrel is more accurate than a lighter one has some merit to it but I feel it has been over stated a little. A barrel blank that has a lot of stress in it or a bad bow (bow = bent/bend etc...) the heavier the contour the more it will resist the groups changing impact or accuracy as it heats up. Again though read what I wrote in the first paragraph.
You can order a palma contour from us with a longer breech length (B dimension). We've done them up to 6" or 7" long.
Guys call all the time and want to change a certain dimension on the palmas, straight tapers and the Rem. varmints. Again the contour only effects weight for the most part.
I've got a med. palma contour on my prone rifle in 6x47 Lapua and one on my .30cal. palma rifle and both guns shoot around 1/4 moa. My .30cal. palma rifle with open match sights off the bench I've shot 1/4moa groups and have the targets to prove it and witnesses to boot.
My son at the time was 13 a few years ago shot my prone rifle with a heavy palma contour on it at the time and I shot my shop rifle with a HV contour on it both in 6mm Rem. and 107gr. Sierra's at a 2 man team 1000 yard match. We came in 3rd over all and he never shot a match before. Both guns shot awesome.
I've seen a ton of Light Varmint bench guns that are under the 10.5lb. weight limit out shoot a Heavy Varmint gun (13.5# limit)or even a rail/unlimited gun.
Palma rifles if I remember correctly have a weight limit of 14lbs. 3 oz. with sling and sights on it ready for shooting etc...Most guys actions, stock combinations will not make this weight limit with the 30" finish length barrels running a HV contour. Finished at 30" you are looking at a 15 to 17 pound gun or more. I wouldn't want to hold it with a sling and my forearm only for say 30min. My arm will want to fall off when I'm done and this is in the prone position. Try holding a 17# gun off hand or shoot it in the sitting rapid position for across the course matches. Not to many guys can do it and do it well.
To me the contour is more about weight and looks than anything else.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
I've read most of the post and will add my .002.
I tell guys this over and over! The contour to me has only a little to do with accuracy for the most part! It only effects overall weight of the gun. To me the straighter the barrel blank, the more uniform the bore and groove sizes over the whole length of the barrel and the more uniform the twist the more forgiving the barrel is going to be regardless of the contour.
The old saying of a heavier barrel is more accurate than a lighter one has some merit to it but I feel it has been over stated a little. A barrel blank that has a lot of stress in it or a bad bow (bow = bent/bend etc...) the heavier the contour the more it will resist the groups changing impact or accuracy as it heats up. Again though read what I wrote in the first paragraph.
You can order a palma contour from us with a longer breech length (B dimension). We've done them up to 6" or 7" long.
Guys call all the time and want to change a certain dimension on the palmas, straight tapers and the Rem. varmints. Again the contour only effects weight for the most part.
I've got a med. palma contour on my prone rifle in 6x47 Lapua and one on my .30cal. palma rifle and both guns shoot around 1/4 moa. My .30cal. palma rifle with open match sights off the bench I've shot 1/4moa groups and have the targets to prove it and witnesses to boot.
My son at the time was 13 a few years ago shot my prone rifle with a heavy palma contour on it at the time and I shot my shop rifle with a HV contour on it both in 6mm Rem. and 107gr. Sierra's at a 2 man team 1000 yard match. We came in 3rd over all and he never shot a match before. Both guns shot awesome.
I've seen a ton of Light Varmint bench guns that are under the 10.5lb. weight limit out shoot a Heavy Varmint gun (13.5# limit)or even a rail/unlimited gun.
Palma rifles if I remember correctly have a weight limit of 14lbs. 3 oz. with sling and sights on it ready for shooting etc...Most guys actions, stock combinations will not make this weight limit with the 30" finish length barrels running a HV contour. Finished at 30" you are looking at a 15 to 17 pound gun or more. I wouldn't want to hold it with a sling and my forearm only for say 30min. My arm will want to fall off when I'm done and this is in the prone position. Try holding a 17# gun off hand or shoot it in the sitting rapid position for across the course matches. Not to many guys can do it and do it well.
To me the contour is more about weight and looks than anything else.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question? </div></div>
You have no idea. If you think that was a condensending tone you better put your big boy pants on.
You asked for an answer and a scientific (opinion) and when you weren’t getting one that seemed to make you a little impatient. You don't like the answers you get, or got, don't ask the friggin question then.<----That would be a condensending tone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certain conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
Did you not read it? The only difference is to make class <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> for a particular class. Nothing says they have to use those profiles they can use any profile they want as long as they make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are easy to cut easy to control the <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> removed and still keep the rifle as heavy as they can.
The difference in the light Palma and the HV or M40 is again <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>, has nothing to do with accuracy. It’s to maintain <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma shooting needs to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> but keep the rifle as heavy as they can for stability, stability is accuracy for any type of shooting.
Yes there is a difference and it has nothing to do with harmonics or science it has to do with <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> and making class simple as that. No two barrels are the same, one could get different results from two barrels of the same contour and science has nothing to do with it.
</div></div>Of course it was condescending, and what's more, you're proud of it. Probably not the smartest way to respond to a poitential customer, but I doubt you care much about that, either.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question? </div></div>
You have no idea. If you think that was a condensending tone you better put your big boy pants on.
You asked for an answer and a scientific (opinion) and when you weren’t getting one that seemed to make you a little impatient. You don't like the answers you get, or got, don't ask the friggin question then.<----That would be a condensending tone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certain conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
Did you not read it? The only difference is to make class <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> for a particular class. Nothing says they have to use those profiles they can use any profile they want as long as they make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are easy to cut easy to control the <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> removed and still keep the rifle as heavy as they can.
The difference in the light Palma and the HV or M40 is again <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>, has nothing to do with accuracy. It’s to maintain <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma shooting needs to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> but keep the rifle as heavy as they can for stability, stability is accuracy for any type of shooting.
Yes there is a difference and it has nothing to do with harmonics or science it has to do with <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> and making class simple as that. No two barrels are the same, one could get different results from two barrels of the same contour and science has nothing to do with it.
</div></div>Of course it was condescending, and what's more, you're proud of it. Probably not the smartest way to respond to a poitential customer, but I doubt you care much about that, either.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question? </div></div>
You have no idea. If you think that was a condensending tone you better put your big boy pants on.
You asked for an answer and a scientific (opinion) and when you weren’t getting one that seemed to make you a little impatient. You don't like the answers you get, or got, don't ask the friggin question then.<----That would be a condensending tone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certain conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
Did you not read it? The only difference is to make class <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> for a particular class. Nothing says they have to use those profiles they can use any profile they want as long as they make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are easy to cut easy to control the <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> removed and still keep the rifle as heavy as they can.
The difference in the light Palma and the HV or M40 is again <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>, has nothing to do with accuracy. It’s to maintain <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma shooting needs to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> but keep the rifle as heavy as they can for stability, stability is accuracy for any type of shooting.
Yes there is a difference and it has nothing to do with harmonics or science it has to do with <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> and making class simple as that. No two barrels are the same, one could get different results from two barrels of the same contour and science has nothing to do with it.
</div></div>Of course it was condescending, and what's more, you're proud of it. Probably not the smartest way to respond to a poitential customer, but I doubt you care much about that, either. </div></div>
Sometimes it's not worth it to do business with some people.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I didn't know whether or not there was any discernablbe diffence in accuracy, thus, the question. There was obvioulsy a reason for the different profiles, just not ones that I was aware of. I bet there was a time when <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> didn't know a gun barrel from a tree branch, either. Do you always have such a condecending tone when someone asks a simple question? </div></div>
You have no idea. If you think that was a condensending tone you better put your big boy pants on.
You asked for an answer and a scientific (opinion) and when you weren’t getting one that seemed to make you a little impatient. You don't like the answers you get, or got, don't ask the friggin question then.<----That would be a condensending tone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And I would bet there <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a discernable difference in accuracy given certain conditions and calibers based <span style="font-style: italic">entirely</span> on the profile. Otherwise, what benefit would a heavier profile have over a lighter one? Why would it even be offered if a standard sporter or light Palma was always as accurate as a HV or M40?
Thanks for your input. </div></div>
Did you not read it? The only difference is to make class <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> for a particular class. Nothing says they have to use those profiles they can use any profile they want as long as they make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma profiles are easy to cut easy to control the <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> removed and still keep the rifle as heavy as they can.
The difference in the light Palma and the HV or M40 is again <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>, has nothing to do with accuracy. It’s to maintain <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span>. The Palma shooting needs to make <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> but keep the rifle as heavy as they can for stability, stability is accuracy for any type of shooting.
Yes there is a difference and it has nothing to do with harmonics or science it has to do with <span style="font-weight: bold">weight</span> and making class simple as that. No two barrels are the same, one could get different results from two barrels of the same contour and science has nothing to do with it.
</div></div>Of course it was condescending, and what's more, you're proud of it. Probably not the smartest way to respond to a poitential customer, but I doubt you care much about that, either. </div></div>
Sometimes it's not worth it to do business with some people.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Frank, this is why you have my business. Looks like I'll be ordering another barrel. </div></div>
I guess this just goes to show you that sometimes you have to hear the same thing 7 times, 7 different ways, from 7 different people before you believe it.
Randy and William BOTH told you exactly what Frank just said and now you can accept it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Frank, this is why you have my business. Looks like I'll be ordering another barrel. </div></div>
I guess this just goes to show you that sometimes you have to hear the same thing 7 times, 7 different ways, from 7 different people before you believe it.
Randy and William BOTH told you exactly what Frank just said and now you can accept it?
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Krieger's "Varmint" contours (#17 and #18) have a 5" straight section so that you can set the barrel back and rechamber during its life if you so choose. The normal Palma barrel does not have that 5" straight section. Someone like Krieger would have no problem giving you a Palma taper WITH a 5" straight section if you so desired.
Palma contours are designed to do two things - one, let you make the on again/off again/on again/off again International rules regarding rifle weight, and two, let you get the weight and balance of the sling-coat-irons Palma Prone rifle to your liking while running a 30" finished length barrel. Suitable actions and stocks for this sport vary in weight quite a bit; 3 different contours let you have a variable in the barrel weight. The Varmint contours on the other hand are for what are basically bench guns with long barrels that can be set back once in their life given the high performance/short throat life of hot varmint chamberings.
The term "walkaround varminter" was born to to represent a different breed of varmint rifle, one that would not use either the #17 or #18, though one would find the standard Remington Varmit, the Light Palma, and the #5 contours quite suitable for this application.
Regarding accuracy and taper/barrel weight, Krieger considers their #5 contour as the minimum contour for an accuracy rifle build.
Krieger's "Varmint" contours (#17 and #18) have a 5" straight section so that you can set the barrel back and rechamber during its life if you so choose. The normal Palma barrel does not have that 5" straight section. Someone like Krieger would have no problem giving you a Palma taper WITH a 5" straight section if you so desired.
Palma contours are designed to do two things - one, let you make the on again/off again/on again/off again International rules regarding rifle weight, and two, let you get the weight and balance of the sling-coat-irons Palma Prone rifle to your liking while running a 30" finished length barrel. Suitable actions and stocks for this sport vary in weight quite a bit; 3 different contours let you have a variable in the barrel weight. The Varmint contours on the other hand are for what are basically bench guns with long barrels that can be set back once in their life given the high performance/short throat life of hot varmint chamberings.
The term "walkaround varminter" was born to to represent a different breed of varmint rifle, one that would not use either the #17 or #18, though one would find the standard Remington Varmit, the Light Palma, and the #5 contours quite suitable for this application.
Regarding accuracy and taper/barrel weight, Krieger considers their #5 contour as the minimum contour for an accuracy rifle build.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
We make the palmas with longer breech lengths for guys because some shooters do set them back but not all.
Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there.
If that where the case than the #5 sporter is only a tad lighter than a Rem. varmint. So what is the difference.
We've built a lot of hunting rifles with a rem. mag. sporter contour which only has a .650 muzzle diameter and all of them have shot 1/2 moa or less even in calibers up to .338 Win. mag. The last .338 win. mag was avg. 1/3moa.
My .264 win. mag has a #2 contour. Gun will shoot 1/2" groups or better with Sierra Game King bullets or Nosler Ballistic tips. What's the definition of min. for accuracy.
I personally don't like setting back a barrel. Yes you can set it back and get into some clean rifling and get some more out of it but I look at it this way. If you can do it yourself and not have to pay anyone that is fine but if you have to pay someone to do it you won't get the same amount of life out of the barrel especially in calibers that are barrel burners. If you have a 6.5x284 and are only getting around 1200 rounds out of it. Setting it back you will not get another 1200 out of it. Maybe a 200-300. The throat or beginning breech end of the barrel already has advanced stages of wear. Taking off say only an inch normally isn't enough.
If you have to pay someone to do it and it's going to cost you say $150-$200 you have to make that decision. For me to set it up and spend 2-3 hours I cannot justify the time to put a partially worn barrel back on my gun.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
We make the palmas with longer breech lengths for guys because some shooters do set them back but not all.
Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there.
If that where the case than the #5 sporter is only a tad lighter than a Rem. varmint. So what is the difference.
We've built a lot of hunting rifles with a rem. mag. sporter contour which only has a .650 muzzle diameter and all of them have shot 1/2 moa or less even in calibers up to .338 Win. mag. The last .338 win. mag was avg. 1/3moa.
My .264 win. mag has a #2 contour. Gun will shoot 1/2" groups or better with Sierra Game King bullets or Nosler Ballistic tips. What's the definition of min. for accuracy.
I personally don't like setting back a barrel. Yes you can set it back and get into some clean rifling and get some more out of it but I look at it this way. If you can do it yourself and not have to pay anyone that is fine but if you have to pay someone to do it you won't get the same amount of life out of the barrel especially in calibers that are barrel burners. If you have a 6.5x284 and are only getting around 1200 rounds out of it. Setting it back you will not get another 1200 out of it. Maybe a 200-300. The throat or beginning breech end of the barrel already has advanced stages of wear. Taking off say only an inch normally isn't enough.
If you have to pay someone to do it and it's going to cost you say $150-$200 you have to make that decision. For me to set it up and spend 2-3 hours I cannot justify the time to put a partially worn barrel back on my gun.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
"Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there. "
Mike has told me this on several occasions. You know him so ask him yourself.
"Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there. "
Mike has told me this on several occasions. You know him so ask him yourself.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
It just hit me as to why. Krieger is charging extra for turning in lighter weight contours. They could be charging extra because it does take a little longer (we didn't charge extra for a regular sporter contour when we worked there)or....read the next line.
My initial guess is they are having a higher reject rate due to bows and the difficulty of contouring a smaller barrel.
This would explain why just recently they made smaller contours an up charge now.
If this is the reason why it could be a couple of things. The steel or problems in finish turning.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
It just hit me as to why. Krieger is charging extra for turning in lighter weight contours. They could be charging extra because it does take a little longer (we didn't charge extra for a regular sporter contour when we worked there)or....read the next line.
My initial guess is they are having a higher reject rate due to bows and the difficulty of contouring a smaller barrel.
This would explain why just recently they made smaller contours an up charge now.
If this is the reason why it could be a couple of things. The steel or problems in finish turning.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackhawk95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the HV barrels I like the fact that the shank is longer, giving more room for it to be re-chambered if you needed to do that. </div></div>
That is a very good point. Buy a 24-26" barrel, shoot it thousands of times, set it back/re-chamber and shoot your 22" barrel for thousands of times and repeat.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackhawk95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the HV barrels I like the fact that the shank is longer, giving more room for it to be re-chambered if you needed to do that. </div></div>
That is a very good point. Buy a 24-26" barrel, shoot it thousands of times, set it back/re-chamber and shoot your 22" barrel for thousands of times and repeat.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackhawk95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the HV barrels I like the fact that the shank is longer, giving more room for it to be re-chambered if you needed to do that. </div></div>
That is a very good point. Buy a 24-26" barrel, shoot it thousands of times, set it back/re-chamber and shoot your 22" barrel for thousands of times and repeat. </div></div>
I suggest you re-read Frank Green's posts above regarding this subject and its advisability. IMO his logic is sound.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blue_ridge</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackhawk95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the HV barrels I like the fact that the shank is longer, giving more room for it to be re-chambered if you needed to do that. </div></div>
That is a very good point. Buy a 24-26" barrel, shoot it thousands of times, set it back/re-chamber and shoot your 22" barrel for thousands of times and repeat. </div></div>
I suggest you re-read Frank Green's posts above regarding this subject and its advisability. IMO his logic is sound.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We make the palmas with longer breech lengths for guys because some shooters do set them back but not all.
Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there.
If that where the case than the #5 sporter is only a tad lighter than a Rem. varmint. So what is the difference.
We've built a lot of hunting rifles with a rem. mag. sporter contour which only has a .650 muzzle diameter and all of them have shot 1/2 moa or less even in calibers up to .338 Win. mag. The last .338 win. mag was avg. 1/3moa.
My .264 win. mag has a #2 contour. Gun will shoot 1/2" groups or better with Sierra Game King bullets or Nosler Ballistic tips. What's the definition of min. for accuracy.
I personally don't like setting back a barrel. Yes you can set it back and get into some clean rifling and get some more out of it but I look at it this way. If you can do it yourself and not have to pay anyone that is fine but if you have to pay someone to do it you won't get the same amount of life out of the barrel especially in calibers that are barrel burners. If you have a 6.5x284 and are only getting around 1200 rounds out of it. Setting it back you will not get another 1200 out of it. Maybe a 200-300. The throat or beginning breech end of the barrel already has advanced stages of wear. Taking off say only an inch normally isn't enough.
If you have to pay someone to do it and it's going to cost you say $150-$200 you have to make that decision. For me to set it up and spend 2-3 hours I cannot justify the time to put a partially worn barrel back on my gun.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank,
Would you say the same for a lesser burning cartridge? (308, 6.5x47 or 6BR) I've been thinking of an LTR type rifle and was considering starting with slightly longer barrel so as to have the option to set it back to 18-20" or so on the 2nd go round.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We make the palmas with longer breech lengths for guys because some shooters do set them back but not all.
Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there.
If that where the case than the #5 sporter is only a tad lighter than a Rem. varmint. So what is the difference.
We've built a lot of hunting rifles with a rem. mag. sporter contour which only has a .650 muzzle diameter and all of them have shot 1/2 moa or less even in calibers up to .338 Win. mag. The last .338 win. mag was avg. 1/3moa.
My .264 win. mag has a #2 contour. Gun will shoot 1/2" groups or better with Sierra Game King bullets or Nosler Ballistic tips. What's the definition of min. for accuracy.
I personally don't like setting back a barrel. Yes you can set it back and get into some clean rifling and get some more out of it but I look at it this way. If you can do it yourself and not have to pay anyone that is fine but if you have to pay someone to do it you won't get the same amount of life out of the barrel especially in calibers that are barrel burners. If you have a 6.5x284 and are only getting around 1200 rounds out of it. Setting it back you will not get another 1200 out of it. Maybe a 200-300. The throat or beginning breech end of the barrel already has advanced stages of wear. Taking off say only an inch normally isn't enough.
If you have to pay someone to do it and it's going to cost you say $150-$200 you have to make that decision. For me to set it up and spend 2-3 hours I cannot justify the time to put a partially worn barrel back on my gun.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank,
Would you say the same for a lesser burning cartridge? (308, 6.5x47 or 6BR) I've been thinking of an LTR type rifle and was considering starting with slightly longer barrel so as to have the option to set it back to 18-20" or so on the 2nd go round.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Blue_ridge, For a caliber like .308 win. I would expect normal barrel life around 6,000 for an across the course rifle etc....some guys shooting a 6BR are getting over 3,000 and I would expect the same out of a 6.5x47 Lapua.
A couple of things to consider which I mentioned before are:
1.) What is your accuracy requirement? 1/4 moa, 1/2 moa etc....If it is say a 1/2 moa you could see a higher round count between needing a barrel or setting the old one back. If you say 1/4 moa then you will need to set the barrel back earlier or getting a new one sooner etc....
2.) Keep in mind setting it back you usually don't get the same amount of barrel life out of it like when the barrel was new. If you got 3,000 out of the first time you most likely won't get that much the second time.
Another example is shooting a 7mm short mag on a F-Class gun. Most guys are pressed to get the barrel to go to 800 rounds before they have to pull it. Most start seeing accuracy problems/signs at around 600 rounds. I know one gunsmith who pulls his barrel off at 600 rounds and sets it back to get the accuracy back but even he has said with setting it back he can only get the barrel to go another 200 rounds more. He is a high end shooter and holds records here in the U.S. and does his own work as well.
Some short range high end bench shooters shooting 6PPC will pull the barrel at less than a thousand rounds (remember these guys are going for the perfect one hole groups). The barrel might be shooting in the high .100's but they won't take the chance on it in a big match. I've had customers have a 6ppc barrel on they're gun and at 3,000 rounds still winning matches with it. Would I pull a barrel at 1000 rounds and set it back or put a new one on? No! As long as it is shooting and doing nothing wierd I wouldn't worry about it.
Also when you pull a barrel off and set it back you should recrown it as well. You do get a gas cutting effect from the powder that will wear the crown which can cause accuracy problems also not to mention any cleaning damage. Sometimes a barrel just needs a fresh crown and nothing needs to be done to the chamber end. I've seen .308 win. guns that guys felt they needed a new barrel on it with only a couple of thousand rounds down it and the throat/chamber area of the barrel was fine but the crown was damaged for one reason or another. Recrowned the barrel and the accuracy came right back.
I feel it comes down to your comfort level and what you expect out of your gun/guns.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Blue_ridge, For a caliber like .308 win. I would expect normal barrel life around 6,000 for an across the course rifle etc....some guys shooting a 6BR are getting over 3,000 and I would expect the same out of a 6.5x47 Lapua.
A couple of things to consider which I mentioned before are:
1.) What is your accuracy requirement? 1/4 moa, 1/2 moa etc....If it is say a 1/2 moa you could see a higher round count between needing a barrel or setting the old one back. If you say 1/4 moa then you will need to set the barrel back earlier or getting a new one sooner etc....
2.) Keep in mind setting it back you usually don't get the same amount of barrel life out of it like when the barrel was new. If you got 3,000 out of the first time you most likely won't get that much the second time.
Another example is shooting a 7mm short mag on a F-Class gun. Most guys are pressed to get the barrel to go to 800 rounds before they have to pull it. Most start seeing accuracy problems/signs at around 600 rounds. I know one gunsmith who pulls his barrel off at 600 rounds and sets it back to get the accuracy back but even he has said with setting it back he can only get the barrel to go another 200 rounds more. He is a high end shooter and holds records here in the U.S. and does his own work as well.
Some short range high end bench shooters shooting 6PPC will pull the barrel at less than a thousand rounds (remember these guys are going for the perfect one hole groups). The barrel might be shooting in the high .100's but they won't take the chance on it in a big match. I've had customers have a 6ppc barrel on they're gun and at 3,000 rounds still winning matches with it. Would I pull a barrel at 1000 rounds and set it back or put a new one on? No! As long as it is shooting and doing nothing wierd I wouldn't worry about it.
Also when you pull a barrel off and set it back you should recrown it as well. You do get a gas cutting effect from the powder that will wear the crown which can cause accuracy problems also not to mention any cleaning damage. Sometimes a barrel just needs a fresh crown and nothing needs to be done to the chamber end. I've seen .308 win. guns that guys felt they needed a new barrel on it with only a couple of thousand rounds down it and the throat/chamber area of the barrel was fine but the crown was damaged for one reason or another. Recrowned the barrel and the accuracy came right back.
I feel it comes down to your comfort level and what you expect out of your gun/guns.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Thanks very much for taking the time to explain all that. Much appreciated.
Thanks very much for taking the time to explain all that. Much appreciated.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Hi all, we normally don't have much time here to respond to threads on internet forums, but this thread was brout to our attention by several customers and they though some of the quotes here needed to be addressed by us.
We have never said that our light contours WON'T shoot accurately, in fact many people with simple hunting rifles with our #0 Featherweight contour on their rifle have reported superb accuracy. It is certainly more dificult to find a load or fine tune one to work accurately in a light barrel as the harmonics of firing a cartridge will affect a light barrel more so than a heavy one. Our statement has always been that it is easier to get smaller groups from a heavier barrel. The customer simply has to weigh the pro's and con's of a heavy rigid barrel vs. a light portable one. "Light" and "Heavy" are relative terms when it comes to a barrel. I consider a #2 sporter a 'light' contour, where someone building a mountain rifle would still consider that too heavy. A 'Heavy' barrel for NRA High-Power where a shooter has to fire the rifle off hand or from sling positions with no support other than his arm, may not be heavy at all for an F-Class rifle shooting fron a front and rear rest.
To answer some of the quotes by the representitive from Bartlein Barrels...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there.
If that where the case than the #5 sporter is only a tad lighter than a Rem. varmint. So what is the difference. </div></div>
We do not recomend a #5 as a 'Minimum' to get accuracy out of. It IS a minimum listed contour that we will produce for .30 cal and 7mm in stainless steel. This has been the minimum contour for these calibers in SS since long before and since you worked here Frank.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It just hit me as to why. Krieger is charging extra for turning in lighter weight contours. They could be charging extra because it does take a little longer (we didn't charge extra for a regular sporter contour when we worked there)or....read the next line.
My initial guess is they are having a higher reject rate due to bows and the difficulty of contouring a smaller barrel.
This would explain why just recently they made smaller contours an up charge now.
If this is the reason why it could be a couple of things. The steel or problems in finish turning.
Later, Frank</div></div>
Up until this year we had never charged for the smaller sporter contours. We also had not changed our barrel prices for most calibers in over 5 years. John Krieger felt the need to add a nominal extra fee ($20.00) to make a barrel contour smaller than a #3 for a couple reasons. There is more time invested in turning a #2 than there is in turning a #17 Heavy Varmint. We make both of these blanks from the same piece of 1.312" stock. Removing more material simply takes more time. We could have certainly charged $1.00 more for every contour step we went down if we were going to be 'fair' about the extra time involved with removing more material, but John felt we only needed to do this on the very light sporters. Ask any barrel maker, they will tell you it is more dificult and more time consuming to make a light barrel out of a heavy blank. If they tell you otherwise, they are not telling the truth.
If we are having a higher reject rate due to bows on the smaller contours, it is not a perceptable percentage. Any contour or size barrel has the potential to bow in turning, even an 1.250" straight blank, but we just do not have a high percentage of these.
There is NO problem with our steel. We have been buying our steel from the same mill's for years and years. They make a melt to our proprietary specifications whenever we order because we have the ability to order large quantities of steel at one time. Several local barrel makers buy steel <span style="text-decoration: underline">from us</span>for this very reason, they just cannot get exactly what they want straight from the mill without burdening themselves with extreme amounts of inventory. If I remember correctly, our steel was certainly good enough for you to want to purchase it from us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll bust his chops at Shot Show next week!
Later, Frank </div></div>
No need to discuss any of this with me at the S.H.O.T. show next week Frank. Our policies on quality and recomendations to customers will not change because of it. If any customers or potential customers would like to follow up on this thread with any questions, please feel free to call us directly. You can ask any of the tech's in our office your questions and will get the same answers from all of us.
Arguing on the internet is mostly a hopless act. I simply wanted to clear up some of the talk that was being posted on our behalf that was incorrect or misleading.
Thank you for your time and Happy Shooting!
Mike Hinrichs
Tech Support
262-628-8558
Krieger Barrels
Hi all, we normally don't have much time here to respond to threads on internet forums, but this thread was brout to our attention by several customers and they though some of the quotes here needed to be addressed by us.
We have never said that our light contours WON'T shoot accurately, in fact many people with simple hunting rifles with our #0 Featherweight contour on their rifle have reported superb accuracy. It is certainly more dificult to find a load or fine tune one to work accurately in a light barrel as the harmonics of firing a cartridge will affect a light barrel more so than a heavy one. Our statement has always been that it is easier to get smaller groups from a heavier barrel. The customer simply has to weigh the pro's and con's of a heavy rigid barrel vs. a light portable one. "Light" and "Heavy" are relative terms when it comes to a barrel. I consider a #2 sporter a 'light' contour, where someone building a mountain rifle would still consider that too heavy. A 'Heavy' barrel for NRA High-Power where a shooter has to fire the rifle off hand or from sling positions with no support other than his arm, may not be heavy at all for an F-Class rifle shooting fron a front and rear rest.
To answer some of the quotes by the representitive from Bartlein Barrels...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Krieger recommending they're #5 as a min. for accuracy is a new one? When did that start? Not when we worked there.
If that where the case than the #5 sporter is only a tad lighter than a Rem. varmint. So what is the difference. </div></div>
We do not recomend a #5 as a 'Minimum' to get accuracy out of. It IS a minimum listed contour that we will produce for .30 cal and 7mm in stainless steel. This has been the minimum contour for these calibers in SS since long before and since you worked here Frank.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It just hit me as to why. Krieger is charging extra for turning in lighter weight contours. They could be charging extra because it does take a little longer (we didn't charge extra for a regular sporter contour when we worked there)or....read the next line.
My initial guess is they are having a higher reject rate due to bows and the difficulty of contouring a smaller barrel.
This would explain why just recently they made smaller contours an up charge now.
If this is the reason why it could be a couple of things. The steel or problems in finish turning.
Later, Frank</div></div>
Up until this year we had never charged for the smaller sporter contours. We also had not changed our barrel prices for most calibers in over 5 years. John Krieger felt the need to add a nominal extra fee ($20.00) to make a barrel contour smaller than a #3 for a couple reasons. There is more time invested in turning a #2 than there is in turning a #17 Heavy Varmint. We make both of these blanks from the same piece of 1.312" stock. Removing more material simply takes more time. We could have certainly charged $1.00 more for every contour step we went down if we were going to be 'fair' about the extra time involved with removing more material, but John felt we only needed to do this on the very light sporters. Ask any barrel maker, they will tell you it is more dificult and more time consuming to make a light barrel out of a heavy blank. If they tell you otherwise, they are not telling the truth.
If we are having a higher reject rate due to bows on the smaller contours, it is not a perceptable percentage. Any contour or size barrel has the potential to bow in turning, even an 1.250" straight blank, but we just do not have a high percentage of these.
There is NO problem with our steel. We have been buying our steel from the same mill's for years and years. They make a melt to our proprietary specifications whenever we order because we have the ability to order large quantities of steel at one time. Several local barrel makers buy steel <span style="text-decoration: underline">from us</span>for this very reason, they just cannot get exactly what they want straight from the mill without burdening themselves with extreme amounts of inventory. If I remember correctly, our steel was certainly good enough for you to want to purchase it from us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll bust his chops at Shot Show next week!
No need to discuss any of this with me at the S.H.O.T. show next week Frank. Our policies on quality and recomendations to customers will not change because of it. If any customers or potential customers would like to follow up on this thread with any questions, please feel free to call us directly. You can ask any of the tech's in our office your questions and will get the same answers from all of us.
Arguing on the internet is mostly a hopless act. I simply wanted to clear up some of the talk that was being posted on our behalf that was incorrect or misleading.
Thank you for your time and Happy Shooting!
Mike Hinrichs
Tech Support
262-628-8558
Krieger Barrels
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
Mike, Glad to hear from you and see you on the forums! Another barrel maker and views are always welcome!
Mike also as far as talking to you at shot show and my comment about busting your chops I was goofing around. Sorry if you took it the wrong way at all and if you don't want to talk at all that is fine.
Glad to see you clear up some of the pricing questions being asked etc....on the contours that Krieger does as well.
As far as Krieger goes and selling steel to other makers etc....Krieger has done this in the past and I don't for see him not doing it in the future or will not stop selling to other barrel makers. That's his choice.
As far as it being good enough steel for us to ask to buy from Krieger when we started lets be clear on this.
I asked John Krieger at the NRA show in 2005 to buy 3,000lbs. of 1 3/8" o.d. of C.M. (Chrome Moly) only. No stainless. That conversation was between John and I and you didn't hear it word for word.
John's response to me was no. He couldn't sell me any steel. That he couldn't help us out that he couldn't help Tracy. I asked him why? I said but you sell steel to other barrel makers. He sells steel to another barrel maker (name with held) that got a couple of old Pratt & Whitney rifling machines and was letting them rot under a tarp outside just so we couldn't use them (Krieger) when we worked there. But he sold steel then and probably still sells to that barrel maker. So what gives?
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Mike, Glad to hear from you and see you on the forums! Another barrel maker and views are always welcome!
Mike also as far as talking to you at shot show and my comment about busting your chops I was goofing around. Sorry if you took it the wrong way at all and if you don't want to talk at all that is fine.
Glad to see you clear up some of the pricing questions being asked etc....on the contours that Krieger does as well.
As far as Krieger goes and selling steel to other makers etc....Krieger has done this in the past and I don't for see him not doing it in the future or will not stop selling to other barrel makers. That's his choice.
As far as it being good enough steel for us to ask to buy from Krieger when we started lets be clear on this.
I asked John Krieger at the NRA show in 2005 to buy 3,000lbs. of 1 3/8" o.d. of C.M. (Chrome Moly) only. No stainless. That conversation was between John and I and you didn't hear it word for word.
John's response to me was no. He couldn't sell me any steel. That he couldn't help us out that he couldn't help Tracy. I asked him why? I said but you sell steel to other barrel makers. He sells steel to another barrel maker (name with held) that got a couple of old Pratt & Whitney rifling machines and was letting them rot under a tarp outside just so we couldn't use them (Krieger) when we worked there. But he sold steel then and probably still sells to that barrel maker. So what gives?
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
You're right, I was not involved in the conversation or the descision about the steel, I simply knew that you wanted to purchase it from us. I knew nothing about machines rotting under a tarp, or anything else you mentioned (and don't wish to be part of it). I simply wanted to dispell any mis-information that there 'might be a problem with our steel'.
Tell Tracy & the gang I said hi.
Mike.
You're right, I was not involved in the conversation or the descision about the steel, I simply knew that you wanted to purchase it from us. I knew nothing about machines rotting under a tarp, or anything else you mentioned (and don't wish to be part of it). I simply wanted to dispell any mis-information that there 'might be a problem with our steel'.
Tell Tracy & the gang I said hi.
Mike.
Re: Palma counour vs. Varmint
No sweat Mike! Will pass along to Tracy and the others you said Hi!
Later, Frank
Batlein Barrels
No sweat Mike! Will pass along to Tracy and the others you said Hi!
Later, Frank
Batlein Barrels
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