PCC Options

[MElank]

I don't have one of these yet, nor have I handled any of them. I hear they are a blast to shoot and would like to learn more about them from people here that know more than I do.

I am considering the "K" version because why make it longer than it needs to be. I don't need another SBR so I will probably go with a shoulder brace on whatever I end up with.

Here is what I would like to decide between:

B&T GHM9 Gen 2 Compact (Good price, people seem to like them)

B&T APC9K PRO (Expensive for what it is, blowback with hydraulic buffer)

Sig MPX9 K Latest with MLok Handguard (Hit or miss on reviews, as with most sig products these days)

Or a MP5K Clone of some flavor - Zenith, Dakota, PTR, POF, Omega, No idea which one is the best or if the roller lock thing is dated. (Everyone loves them, but maybe for the nastalga of it)

Let me know what you guys think!

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

The Dakota clones are just about as good as it gets for any HK platform. Zenith distributes really decent ones for the price, but they are MKE Turkish made so fuck them. Both will routinely be better than original HK. The B&T are supposed to be really good, but you're right IMO they aren't worth the money. I avoid anything Sig has put out in the last four-five years like the plague, but that's me punishing them for putting trash on the market only to tiddy it up later— and not an aversion to that specific platform.

I'd build an AR-9, probably CMMG, spend what I saved on optics/SBR stamp/dedicated can/etc.

 

[MElank]

That is exactly how I feel about Sig. I am also considering the AR9 route and will check out the CMMG people have nothing but great things to say about them.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I went with an odd man out - the MPA 30DMG pistol. It takes Glock mags, comes threaded for a can, has top and bottom pic rails, and it's not expensive. I form 1'd mine into an SBR and installed the factory MPA side folding stock and a Smith 10 degree forward cant VFG. So far, I really like it, especially suppressed. The size and ability to use Glock mags (I already had plenty) were what pushed me over the edge for a super compact PCC setup.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I prefer my CMMG dedicated 9mm SBR over my Omega Om9Rs. The Omega has nostalgic MP5 looks but the ar9 has so many more options and upgrades at more affordable prices and easier to get IMO

 

[MElank]

That’s great info guys! I do really like the idea of an ar9 with Glock mags. I have quite a few home built ar’s that I like very much so that route is appealing.

 

[padom]

I've been running a SBR AR9 for a while now. Fucking love it. My son wont give it back at the range. I used the Spartan 9mm billet upper and lower receivers. You can get them in side charging as well.

Spartan-9mm Glock Magazine Compatible Billet Lower Receiver

Spartan-9mm Glock Magazine Compatible Billet Lower Receiver

www.joeboboutfitters.com

Spartan 9MM/45ACP Non-Reciprocating Side Charge Billet Upper Receiver w/ LRBHO

Spartan 9MM/45ACP Non-Reciprocating Side Charge Billet Upper Receiver w/ LRBHO

www.joeboboutfitters.com

I have a 7" Wilson SS Match 9mm barrel and I handload Xtreme 165gr subs with VV N340. I've got thousands of rounds through mine problem free. Also built an identical one in 45acp as well.

 

[Darqusoull13]

That’s great info guys! I do really like the idea of an ar9 with Glock mags. I have quite a few home built ar’s that I like very much so that route is appealing.

A couple of my builds / buys. One 10.5" wearing an Omega 9k and SF light for a night match we did. That one is also my favorite to shoot. One is a 14.5" pin/weld and one is an ultralight 5"+ aluminum shroud pinned to 16". If you're going to build a blowback operated AR-9, keep the lower, bolt, buffer and barrel all in the same brand. The biggest issues I see at our matches locally are first, basement priced stuff breaking and second, parts incompatibility leading to malfunctions. There's a nice mass range of the total weight of your operating system that works well. Outside of that you can get issues.

These guns are all JP builds. Estimated round count on them is between 50-100k on the 10.5 and 14.5 and probably 25k ish on the Ultralight. It's hard to keep track when they get loaned out at matches or demo'ed. They are ultra-reliable and always available as loaners locally. Basically as long as it's 9mm and it fits in a Glock mag, it will run.

 

[padom]

Also I run a billet mag extension on my Glock 33rd mags in my AR9 that gives me 57rd! Its awesome

Here is a dated video of it in action with 115 FMJ





And here is my son with the 57rd mag and 165 subs

 

[MElank]

I think the AR9 route is the most appealing. I do like building guns. The JP GMR is awesome as well.

Sig is too unpredictable for me and I don’t want to be a beta tester. B&T is cool, machined nicely, but expensive for what you get. MP5s are cool for the novelty of it really.

 

[atomic41]

The Stribog is pretty much the BT at $699. We shot the shit out of it

I'm thinking about one of these, everything I'm seeing is positive.

 

[srt-4_uk]

I must be one of the lucky ones to get a good MPX. 8" 1st gen and runs no problems with or without suppressor, subs or supers. Might have a few thousand down the barrel but no where near some of these other guys.
I had an RRA 9mm AR probably 8 years ago and never really liked it. Havent tried any of the newer ARs though. I hear they are alot smoother.

 

[SpeedyR]

a friend has a Stribog that seems to be pretty solid. He loves his. Another has a CZ Scorpion

I saw at a show recently some Quarter Circle 10 AR platform pistol caliber carbines. 9/40/45 versions and each available with different mag compatibility. Sig/Glock/Colt/MP5 versions of each. Seemed like a solid platform and function, plus they've been doing it for a long time it seemed. I just hadn't heard of them before... I looked at a 45ACP side charging non reciprocating version that took glock 21 mags. Seemed like it hit all the buttons (price was up there though).

Quarter Circle 10

www.quartercircle10.com

Anyone used one before or heard anything about them?

 

[LilGucci]

I'm in this market, and in addition to the GHM9 and Vector, I would choose the GHM9 because you can change from a sbr or pistol into a 16" 9mm gun to practice on if you want to save money on 556. Plus, if you want to change over to a glock or Sig mags in the future, B&T have said that they'll be selling adapter/lower conversion kits for that soon.

I would also say to consider Stern's adapter that makes it easy to use any AR 15 receiver set accept pistol caliber mags.

Another option is the QC5 from Quarter Circle 10, seen here outfitted with BAD's furniture, handrail, and PDW stock, it's got that MP5 look. The bottom QC5 has a Midwest Industries handrail and I think a Strike Industries Viper PDW Stock.

And finally, there's the option to just build one that accepts Glock or Colt mags, from AK pistol builds to AR 15, to AR 9 builds.

 

[padom]

a friend has a Stribog that seems to be pretty solid. He loves his. Another has a CZ Scorpion

I saw at a show recently some Quarter Circle 10 AR platform pistol caliber carbines. 9/40/45 versions and each available with different mag compatibility. Sig/Glock/Colt/MP5 versions of each. Seemed like a solid platform and function, plus they've been doing it for a long time it seemed. I just hadn't heard of them before... I looked at a 45ACP side charging non reciprocating version that took glock 21 mags. Seemed like it hit all the buttons (price was up there though).

Quarter Circle 10

www.quartercircle10.com

Anyone used one before or heard anything about them?

I'm running their BCG's in my AR9 and AR45.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I've had a couple AR9's and never really liked them. I always ended up dumping them for one reason or another. I've shot pretty much all the PCC's at one time or another and IMO the MPX was the nicest shooting and overall nicest gun of them all. I've wanted a MPX for a long time but held off because of all the negative press on them. I finally bought an MPX-K last month and I'm glad I did, the gun is awesome... except the trigger, which will be replaced by a Geissele once the black friday sale starts.

Mine is the gen 2 Mlok version but isn't new enough to have the Timney trigger. I purposely bought this model not wanting the Timney because I knew I'd be putting a Geissele in it because I'm not a fan of the feel of the Timney and I haven't had the greatest experience with their AR based triggers (or their bolt gun triggers). I opted for the SB Tactical collapsing brace because I didn't like the Sig option. Mine came with the Sig flip up sights (not KAC's by any means but good considering they were free) but other than that I slapped a Trijicon MRO on it, a Radian CH, bought and bunch of extra mags, and went to the range. It's been solid.

The deciding factor for me (other than looking at pics and getting a half chub) was talking to a lot of friends of mine who have them and all of them saying they have had 100% reliability from them and not to read too far into what you read online.

I also have a HK SP5K... I got it because I love MP5's but just can't justify the $40K for a transferable machine gun. I bought it last year, installed the SB tactical brace and the Franklin binary trigger. It's a fun toy (not as fun as a auto MP5 by any means) but that's about where it ends. If it weren't for the hard on I have for MP5's it would have gone down the road a long time ago. The ergo's suck once you get used to an AR platform, there's no great way to mount a red dot, no way to mount my suppressor (I don't have a trip lug), bolt doesn't lock back on empty mag. I doubt I'll sell it unless I buy a legit MP5, but it's not in the same category as the rest of the PCC's IMO.

The B&T APC is the second best of the PCC's, but I would not buy one over a MPX.

 

[texas_vet00]

Have a couple QC10’s on both Glock Small and Large Frame. Will be adding their Sig226 and 320 versions to the stable here very soon...

 

[ddavis]

I've been researching this same thing and I'm convinced I don't want some garbage AF direct blowback gun, especially since it will be run suppressed 99% of the time. Which only leaves a few options. I'm pretty damn sure I want to go with CMMG's RDB system since it seems simple and is AR compatible. I'm also very much against using Glock mags because why deal with loading those when I could just cram rounds into a double feed mag way easier? I think the solution for me is to build an upper off the CMMG RDB system, and use the Endo mags with my standard SBR AR lower. I like the idea of being able to use a standard AR lower. All reviews of the Endo mags seem to be pretty positive, same for the CMMG system. Anyone have much experience with building from those parts?

 

[padom]

I've been researching this same thing and I'm convinced I don't want some garbage AF direct blowback gun, especially since it will be run suppressed 99% of the time. Which only leaves a few options. I'm pretty damn sure I want to go with CMMG's RDB system since it seems simple and is AR compatible. I'm also very much against using Glock mags because why deal with loading those when I could just cram rounds into a double feed mag way easier? I think the solution for me is to build an upper off the CMMG RDB system, and use the Endo mags with my standard SBR AR lower. I like the idea of being able to use a standard AR lower. All reviews of the Endo mags seem to be pretty positive, same for the CMMG system. Anyone have much experience with building from those parts?

Do you have direct experience with 9mm PCC? What is garbage as fuck with a direct blowback 9mm AR?

I've built 2 now, with quality parts, buffers, bcgs and they run like a swiss watch. Mine have dedicated cans on them and have been run suppressed 100% of their life.

Now I have heard horror stories or guys building AR9 not knowing what parts to use and have had nothing but issues.

I have close to 10000rd through the one I posted above without a problem.

 

[Darqusoull13]

Do you have direct experience with 9mm PCC? What is garbage as fuck with a direct blowback 9mm AR?

I've built 2 now, with quality parts, buffers, bcgs and they run like a swiss watch. Mine have dedicated cans on them and have been run suppressed 100% of their life.

Now I have heard horror stories or guys building AR9 not knowing what parts to use and have had nothing but issues.

I have close to 10000rd through the one I posted above without a problem.

I agree with @padom . We had a 10 stage, 25 knockdown steel target per stage match with 4 shooters all running the same suppressed 9mm. When you know what you're doing blowback AR's are damn near the most reliable guns I have had.

 

[ddavis]

Do you have direct experience with 9mm PCC? What is garbage as fuck with a direct blowback 9mm AR?

I've built 2 now, with quality parts, buffers, bcgs and they run like a swiss watch. Mine have dedicated cans on them and have been run suppressed 100% of their life.

Now I have heard horror stories or guys building AR9 not knowing what parts to use and have had nothing but issues.

I have close to 10000rd through the one I posted above without a problem.

Not saying they don't work, it's just a cheap/lazy way of doing things. It works, but at the expense of suppression and a crappy recoil impulse. When you have that much mass moving it creates recoil. There's really no reason a 9mm should recoil as much/more than a 5.56, but most of them do. As an example an MP5 is very smooth. A Ruger PC9, not so much.

 

[padom]

Not saying they don't work, it's just a cheap/lazy way of doing things. It works, but at the expense of suppression and a crappy recoil impulse. When you have that much mass moving it creates recoil. There's really no reason a 9mm should recoil as much/more than a 5.56, but most of them do. As an example an MP5 is very smooth. A Ruger PC9, not so much.

What suppression is being sacrificed. How many have you tested? My AR9 is shot regularly by my 9yr old son. It has virtually no recoil, is super quiet and runs great. It's slightly more recoil than his AR 22lr.

What buffers and BCG's are you using that have recoil close to a 5.56?

 

[ddavis]

What suppression is being sacrificed. How many have you tested? My AR9 is shot regularly by my 9yr old son. It has virtually no recoil, is super quiet and runs great. It's slightly more recoil than his AR 22lr.

I've never owned one, just friends guns and researching. The most I've had at one sitting is a PC9, KP9 AK, and MP5 side by side. The roller delayed blowback system is noticeably smoother and softer shooting, I don't think that's really up for debate. I'm sure you can tune things to make the most out of a straight blowback system, but why when I could get something with delayed blowback?

 

[roostercogburn98]

My AR 9 runs like a sewing machine and eats every type of ammo I feed it. Supers/Subs, suppressed/unsuppressed. I reload 124 grain FMJs with 4.0grains of Titegroup and they are pretty dang quiet

The MP/roller lock family is cool but that fluted chamber is strange sometimes and can treat brass bad at times.

 

[padom]

I've never owned one, just friends guns and researching. The most I've had at one sitting is a PC9, KP9 AK, and MP5 side by side. The roller delayed blowback system is noticeably smoother and softer shooting, I don't think that's really up for debate. I'm sure you can tune things to make the most out of a straight blowback system, but why when I could get something with delayed blowback?

Nobody asked you why you wont buy a blowback vs a delayed.

You were asked to back up your statement that a blowback AR was garbage AF and how the ones you had didnt run suppressed and had super heavy recoil. Cause those statements, when built properly by people with experience couldnt be farther from the truth.

Now when you say you dont own any its evident this is a I read it on the internet situation.

 

[padom]

My AR 9 runs like a sewing machine and eats every type of ammo I feed it. Supers/Subs, suppressed/unsuppressed. I reload 124 grain FMJs with 4.0grains of Titegroup and they are pretty dang quiet

Try some Xtreme 165gr with VV N340.... with a can, all you here is that 165gr hitting steel like a sledge. My favorite load.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Try some Xtreme 165gr with VV N340.... with a can, all you here is that 165gr hitting steel like a sledge. My favorite load.

Once I run out of this load of 124s I will have to try it out.

 

[ddavis]

Nobody asked you why you wont buy a blowback vs a delayed.

You were asked to back up your statement that a blowback AR was garbage AF and how the ones you had didnt run suppressed and had super heavy recoil. Cause those statements, when built properly by people with experience couldnt be farther from the truth.

Now when you say you dont own any its evident this is a I read it on the internet situation.

I research things before I buy them. You don't? Try looking up what others have to say who have compared all the different systems. The reason why an MPX is almost always at the top of the list for light recoil is because it's not blowback. If you screw around with different buffer springs, etc. you can get a blowback 9mm to have less felt recoil than a 556, sure. But generally they don't. Watch your own videos you posted above. The recoil impulse is bad because it relies on a heavy bolt. No getting around the physics of that.

 

[ddavis]

Which is also why I'm here right now. I'm not trying to be confrontational, and I value the advice you are giving. It gives me hope that a BB 9mm can be decent. Because pretty much all the research I've done in the last few months is counter to what you are saying right now. I'm just trying to learn.

-Dan

 

[texag0842]

I really liked my APC9 but ended up selling it because I want AR15 ergonomics.

Ordered a Noveske Space Invader. It's a little pricey but it checked the most important boxes for me.

 

[MElank]

I think the space invader is the style I’m going to shoot for.

I love the look of the mpx k but by the time I find one for a good price ($1900 which is their current price for whatever reason. Seems too high) I could have bought a can and a gun. I really didn’t want a buffer tube, but that seems to be the best bang for the buck.

 

[101stinfantry]

I think just about any of the current PCC's (as long as they work) would be fun guns to shoot, I've had several over the years, though the only ones I still currently have is a Vector Uzi, and PS90. I would like to shoot a KRISS, just because its so different. I'd also love to try a Fightlite MXR, but since it is going to be manufactured by the company that brought you the Shrike I ain't holding my breath that it'll ever be available in my lifetime.

 

[texas_vet00]

Which is also why I'm here right now. I'm not trying to be confrontational, and I value the advice you are giving. It gives me hope that a BB 9mm can be decent. Because pretty much all the research I've done in the last few months is counter to what you are saying right now. I'm just trying to learn.

-Dan

Agree w/ Padom here. You really should refrain from shit-posting while "learning"... It makes you look bad. Just sayin'...

 

[ddavis]

Agree w/ Padom here. You really should refrain from shit-posting while "learning"... It makes you look bad. Just sayin'...

I'll be more careful when discussing people's 9mm PCC operating system of choice in the future. Sorry if anyone was upset. I know it's a very touchy subject.

 

[padom]

I'll be more careful when discussing people's 9mm PCC operating system of choice in the future. Sorry if anyone was upset. I know it's a very touchy subject.

Nobodys upset, and you can discuss your system of choice all day. The issue is spreading inaccurate information that is not factual that you dont have first hand experience with but many of us do. When you do that people not in the know read that shit and take it as fact. That's all. Now carry on.

And to comment on your statement you can see the heavy recoil in my video. That video is very old, right after being built a while back in its pistol config not trying to shoulder and the crappy buffer/spring that came with the tube.

It's now a registered sbr with a stock and proper buffer/spring setup that makes recoil virtually non existent. My 9mm bcg is not weighted....my AR45 bcg is. But not this 9mm....JP hollow bcg just like an AR15 bcg with a tuned JP 9mm SCS.

 

[srt-4_uk]

Isnt the SCS heavier?

 

[padom]

Isnt the SCS heavier?

Heavier than what? Its fully configurable. So you can add steel and remove tungsten weights, add tungstend instead of steel, etc. Im running 2 tungsten and the rest steel on my 9mm SCS.

 

[ddavis]

Nobodys upset, and you can discuss your system of choice all day. The issue is spreading inaccurate information that is not factual that you dont have first hand experience with but many of us do. When you do that people not in the know read that shit and take it as fact. That's all. Now carry on.

And to comment on your statement you can see the heavy recoil in my video. That video is very old, right after being built a while back in its pistol config not trying to shoulder and the crappy buffer/spring that came with the tube.

It's now a registered sbr with a stock and proper buffer/spring setup that makes recoil virtually non existent. My 9mm bcg is not weighted....my AR45 bcg is. But not this 9mm....JP hollow bcg just like an AR15 bcg with a tuned JP 9mm SCS.

Any idea what your total weight is? Bolt plus buffer? I'm seeing pretty much between 18-23 ounces. I'm guessing the spring comes into play too.

FWIW I have what is likely the most powerful round commercially built on a straight blowback action. A 351 WSL. The reciprocating mass is 4-5 pounds, lol.

 

[padom]

Any idea what your total weight is? Bolt plus buffer? I'm seeing pretty much between 18-23 ounces. I'm guessing the spring comes into play too.

FWIW I have what is likely the most powerful round commercially built on a straight blowback action. A 351 WSL. The reciprocating mass is 4-5 pounds, lol.

BCG 13.7oz
9mm AR Short Stroke Version | 5H2 Heavy SCS - 11oz

 

[srt-4_uk]

Heavier than what? Its fully configurable. So you can add steel and remove tungsten weights, add tungstend instead of steel, etc. Im running 2 tungsten and the rest steel on my 9mm SCS.

Sorry should have expounded. The hollow back BCG you have makes the BCG lighter but the SCS is surely heavier than a "normal" 9mm buffer. Pulling the weight from the BCG and putting more in the buffer doesnt change the weight of the moving pieces. It's still almost 2lbs coming backward and 2lbs slamming forward.
For comparison sake, a MPX has a 8.2oz of moving parts and CMMG is in the 1lb range (11oz-ish bcg plus whatever buffer you want to run)

 

[padom]

The weight isnt everything. This is a short stroke setup so it isnt flying all the way back in the tube and slamming at the end like a normal buffer setup... this reduces felt recoil significantly. Have you fired a JP 9mm pcc or one built on these parts? My 9yr old shoots it weekly and compares it to just slightly more recoil than his 16" CMMG 22lr AR. That's shooting Xteme 165gr sub loads with 3.5gr of VV N340. Smooth as butter.

 

[Spblademaker]

Took an AK-V home today. Running it tomorrow.

 

[srt-4_uk]

The weight isnt everything. This is a short stroke setup so it isnt flying all the way back in the tube and slamming at the end like a normal buffer setup... this reduces felt recoil significantly. Have you fired a JP 9mm pcc or one built on these parts? My 9yr old shoots it weekly and compares it to just slightly more recoil than his 16" CMMG 22lr AR. That's shooting Xteme 165gr sub loads with 3.5gr of VV N340. Smooth as butter.

I have. My RRA was bought by a buddy of mine and he runs a SCS. The SCS makes a difference, no doubt. The factory buffer gives the heavy bolt too much momentum to slam forward. But it's still 2lbs bottoming out the SCS and 2lbs slamming into the breech face. Same buddy shot my MPX and bought one right away. Different strokes for different folks. Sig Mags and replacement barrels are expensive. Handguard options suck.

 

[MElank]

Quarter Circle 10 has a 40% off coupon right now on matches receiver sets. That makes it much easier to decide. From what I have researched their matched sets are as good as it gets.

 

[padom]

Quarter Circle 10 has a 40% off coupon right now on matches receiver sets. That makes it much easier to decide. From what I have researched their matched sets are as good as it gets.

Very nice and the only reason I didn't build off them is because of the MP5 mags which are twice as expensive as a Glock 33rd

 

[MElank]

They have Glock, Colt, and MP5 mag sets. For some reason they aren’t all listed there. I sent them an email and they sent me some link that took me to a Glock mag version that I couldn’t get to on their actual page. Weird, but it worked. $260 for the set.

 

[padom]

They have Glock, Colt, and MP5 mag sets. For some reason they aren’t all listed there. I sent them an email and they sent me some link that took me to a Glock mag version that I couldn’t get to on their actual page. Weird, but it worked. $260 for the set.

Interesting

 

[MElank]

Yea, I am not sure what is going on with their website. But, here is the link they sent me which takes you directly to the Glock lower normal rear charging handle if anyone wants it. Good luck finding it any other way.

Ranger (GSF) Billet Upper Receiver Set

Quarter Circle 10, THE AR Pistol Caliber BRAND. Leader in top of the line, dedicated AR15 Pistol Caliber parts. CALIFORNIA BUYERS: Please check with your transferring dealer before ordering. Many CA dealers are unwilling to process lower receiver transfers.

www.quartercircle10.com

Code is "blackfriday2019" for 40% off. You can also look at their instagram page for the code.

 

[SpeedyR]

Interesting

That was my understanding of the rifles/pistols when I saw them- they have 3 or 4 versions of the lowers- one for compatibility with each of the magazines so you can choose the platform you want to stick with. Sig, Glock, MP5, Colt were the options if I remember right. 9, 40 and 45 options for each brand. I picked up a catalog as I thought it would be fun to have a 45 or 9mm PCC at some point.

the catalog seems to be much more clear than the website:
Ranger- glock small frame mags (17/19/34)
Rider- Colt SMG 9mm
Big Tex- 45 glock 21 mags
Sheriff- M&P magazines
Blu Lightning- Sig 226 mags
Blu Whoistler- Sig P320 mags
QC5- MP5 mags

other options are side or rear charging, different triggers and braces vs stocks, 5.5/7.5/10.5 and 16" barrels.

 

[Shifty6BR]

Running a qc10 colt pattern lower for some time.. form 1 approved way back when...running like a top with metalform mags. My buddy did his with a glock pattern lower and it eats well and lrbho functions as should.

I run mine with a Blitzkrieg hydro buffer, and a Tubb spring, very, very smooth and keeps my sight flat during cycling.