Peace Officers respond to open carry

As the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility, and I see a more responsible breed of LEO on the rise.

Sully
Obviously your opinion is respected and highly regarded by me. It is encouraging to hear that more than small improvements in "customer relations" are being made in PD's across the country. That would seem to suggest that these constitutional "troublemakers" that are open-carrying for the purpose of making a political statement by the outward and fearless exercising of their rights, are indeed making a difference. They have elevated awareness, and in response, law enforcement has been forced to re-train their response procedures.

It takes a brave (or stupid) person to shake the fist of righteousness at powerful figures of authority. I don't think they get their due credit.

Perhaps it's because the majority of them are more stupid in their methods than brave and intelligent? ;)
 
i am not a big fan of open carry. i understand it but don't like it. get a concealed carry permit if you want to carry. i do carry. i don;t want the guy next to me to know i am armed.

now on police, i have a lot cop friends who stop by my shop and i hassle them about the way they dress. i ask if them if they are getting ready to invade poland. some dress like they are doing a tour in iraq.

cops these days are just like the cops of old, give them lip and they will bust your head. just now every one has a camera.
 
Orkan/KY,

As Sully referenced, there is quite a bit going on "behind the scenes" of LE so to speak. The problem is that it's sort of the conundrum of "proving a negative". Society doesn't hear about it when something is handled properly 100 times that week, they hear about it when it goes wrong on #101. Every single day cops act on their conscience in defiance of some absurd policy or ordinance. There are times when it's worth the bullshit to get into a confrontation over it, and there's times when it's more effective to just do what's right quietly. That's not the "code of silence" B.S., it's not drawing attention to the fact you're doing the right thing, so you can continue to do it. It's the tacit rather than explicit approval of supervisors to do what's right rather than what's "required".

In the deep south, the role of the armed citizenry is fantastic. I used to love going to prowler calls and arriving on scene to meet an octogenarian standing in a haze of gunsmoke after they'd unloaded on some young punk trying to break in their house. I'd always provide some of my own ammo to reload whatever they'd emptied in the encounter and ensure my narrative could NEVER be used as evidence against them should some over-zealous politician try to get involved.

During Katrina, the coastal city I was working in had the first Walmart to open after the storm. By company policy they had suspended all sales of weapons and ammo in the hurricane zone. I was approached by a guy from one of the more affected areas who'd made the trip over to get some supplies and ammo for him and neighbors because they'd organized a neighborhood "militia" in the absence of the police. He was nearly in tears that he'd left his family at a friend's house to come over only to be denied the purchase of ammo and was asking if I could recommend another place in town to try. I asked him what he needed and went to my trunk and loaded him up with boxes of ammo for each of the weapons he and his neighbors were using, gave him some cases of MREs, took him across the street to the gas station and put him at the head of the mile-long line for gas and had the gas station authorize a full tank of gas plus whatever gas cans he had with him (there was a 5gal per person ration in effect) so he could get home before it was dark, and gave him my cell # to call me if he ran into any problems on his future trips to the city. I told him to give that # to any of his neighbors who needed help as well, that between me and some other officers, we could get them outfitted for a siege if some semblance of order wasn't restored.

I'll tell you that more than anything that drove me out of LE, it was the adoption of the COMSTAT crime-mapping system that we adopted from NYC. In theory it's supposed to allow multiple precincts and entities within a city to track crime trends across different command elements that don't normally talk to each other. The way it's supposed to work is that officers with different pieces to the puzzle can find out that someone else is also working on the puzzle and they can compare notes to solve the crime. It's also supposed to let precinct commanders track crime trends so they can formulate plans to combat the issue.
What it turned into was an extremely adversarial process where a Dpty Chief was screaming at Precinct Captains every week about how they'd be relieved of their commands if they couldn't stop auto-burglary, homelessness, etc in their precincts. The consequence of that was that the Captains would then be under the gun to "do something", and would delegate problems to subordinates with a "fix it or else" mandate. It bred more bad decisions and extra-Constitutional practices than you could imagine: road blocks, 100% stop/frisk policies in certain areas after certain hours, the mandate for unlawful arrests just to "put someone in jail so I have some numbers to show the Chief next week", etc. It was LUNACY.
I was always one of the most pro-active officers everywhere I worked, so when I came off of a special task force and back to patrol the Capt asked me to head up his "COMSTAT detail" where my job was to be his enforcement arm and go out and solve his problems for him. I politely refused, then was TOLD I was going to do it. So I disregarded politeness and flat-out refused to be a part of it and dared him to MAKE me do it. I took a huge amount of shit from both him and my Lt, who was WAY up the Capts ass and was the prime offender coming up with unlawful ideas in an attempt to earn brownie points. On more than one occasion I had to directly disobey orders from him to make warrantless searches and arrests to "solve the problem". He'd threaten me with discipline and I'd threaten him with the LAW. He accused me of mutiny for telling other officers to disregard his orders. He ended up in a newsworthy jam shortly after I left his squad :)

One of the task forces I was on was an ATF program to prosecute felons in possession of firearms. It was hugely successful program that went after bad guys rather than going after guns. After a while the political winds shifted and someone got unhappy about the demographics of the cases and wanted a little more "balance" in who went to federal prison, so they decided to shift the focus to domestic violence cases (remember a misdemeanor DV case is also a disqualifier). Today's DV laws are unconstitutional on their face, mandating that officers make arrests where no probable cause exists and the officers KNOW that he accused is not guilty.
My boss and I quietly screened out those cases to ensure that "John Q" who'd been railroaded into some bullshit non-violent DV case by the courts or a vindictive woman never got prosecuted. We had to be discrete about it, but we controlled which cases were considered, so I just filed them in my "No Go" drawer. By the nature of the process, a lot of people to this day have NO IDEA that they were facing Federal prison had it not been for some discretion.

I don't offer up the "war stories" as any form of "look at me". I made mistakes just like anyone else who's ever gotten dressed in the morning and left their house. I simply offer them as some real-world instances of the behind-the-scenes dynamics in LE that don't and likely won't ever end up on youtube or CNN.

If the fear is "what happens when the balloon goes up", my personal concern is much more the response of the military rather than the police. Police officers are non-compliant by personality, military commanders are not.


***Let me reiterate that a couple of posts ago, KYPatriot and I were apparently typing at the same time, and I used the figurative "you" rather than a reference to any member in particular when I raised the issue of the military. KY and I have spoken via PM and I truly believe we're completely on the same page. I'm in NO WAY condoning or justifying un-Constitutional practices. I'm enjoying this discussion and hoping to pose rational points on the reality of a situation so that we as a collective can discuss how to apply the theory to the reality in a workable solution. KY, I hope you know you have my deepest respect, and I'm still waiting on you to let me know where and when I can vote for you. ;)***
 
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that drove me out of LE

Thats the key my friend. Of all the people i know (police or ex police) and can base my opinion on, decent people simply cannot work in LE for a very long time (mind you that this is Europe where police work is much much easier than in US at least when it comes to personal safety of police officers) there are of course some who simply cannot leave due to various reasons outside their control but a simplification is (based on my experience and knowledge - so that someone doesn't explode again) that decent people have a very hard time staying in LE and that those unable to leave are a minority. So what remains and in fact rises up through ranks is (mostly) neither decent nor capable.

As to the military/police check out Ukraine until police didn't switch sides politicians were firmly in control. Army was not even involved or activated (perhaps there were orders but were ignored by defense minister and/or senior military commanders) as this is a major implication (why do you think there are many new "government agencies" formed and equipped) i.e. very frank "fuck you citizens" statement which tends to be counterproductive in the long run.
 
Sharac,

I know where you're coming from, but fortunately it's not the case everywhere. As Sully referenced, every once in a while cooler heads prevail and some real changes take place for the good.

Every place is different, and as sad as it is, a lot of it comes down to money. My agency hadn't had a pay raise in 10yrs despite a written agreement with the City mandating merit-raises and step-increases. Our recruiting standards continued to drop in order to attract ANY applicants much less qualified ones. Add some specific hiring-quotas, and there was a fairly successful recipe for disaster. We went from a major scandal every few years to one every month or two, and those were just the ones the news got ahold of. There were/are still obviously some good guys at work, each guy has their own line in the sand.

Sadly, the guys I enjoyed working with, from big bosses to co-workers, have either retired or left for other Agencies in the area with better pay, benefits, and leadership.

I wrestled quite a bit with the decision to quit and perpetuate the problem, or hang on in the hopes of a change. I made the personal decision that real change (at that agency) wasn't in the foreseeable future and elected to go. LE isn't a job that good officers do for the money, so when the enjoyment of the work is gone it's time to find something else. Unfortunately what that leaves behind is a disproportionate number of guys who are NOT the best or brightest. I went through the academy 13yrs ago with guys who STILL have yet to make a felony arrest. That's no shit, 13yrs in patrol without a felony arrest!!!! Those guys will be there forever because they can draw a check, inadequate though it is, that is STILL more than they deserve, for basically doing NOTHING.

It would take an incredibly progressive Dept with some solid leadership that was going to be around for a while to get me back into it.
 
Sharac,

I know where you're coming from, but fortunately it's not the case everywhere. As Sully referenced, every once in a while cooler heads prevail and some real changes take place for the good.

Every place is different, and as sad as it is, a lot of it comes down to money. My agency hadn't had a pay raise in 10yrs despite a written agreement with the City mandating merit-raises and step-increases. Our recruiting standards continued to drop in order to attract ANY applicants much less qualified ones. Add some specific hiring-quotas, and there was a fairly successful recipe for disaster. We went from a major scandal every few years to one every month or two, and those were just the ones the news got ahold of. There were/are still obviously some good guys at work, each guy has their own line in the sand.

Sadly, the guys I enjoyed working with, from big bosses to co-workers, have either retired or left for other Agencies in the area with better pay, benefits, and leadership.

I wrestled quite a bit with the decision to quit and perpetuate the problem, or hang on in the hopes of a change. I made the personal decision that real change (at that agency) wasn't in the foreseeable future and elected to go. LE isn't a job that good officers do for the money, so when the enjoyment of the work is gone it's time to find something else. Unfortunately what that leaves behind is a disproportionate number of guys who are NOT the best or brightest. I went through the academy 13yrs ago with guys who STILL have yet to make a felony arrest. That's no shit, 13yrs in patrol without a felony arrest!!!! Those guys will be there forever because they can draw a check, inadequate though it is, that is STILL more than they deserve, for basically doing NOTHING.

It would take an incredibly progressive Dept with some solid leadership that was going to be around for a while to get me back into it.

BB thanks for doing it right. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of in your LE career, wish we had more like you there though I understand because of my own background why you moved on to something else.

I understand that the career isn't done for the money but it would help I believe, as I have mentioned before, to treat the recruitment more like that of a military officer career path. I've already been down that path.

Thanks for some great discussion about LE mindset, I have learned something on that point and have a much better, and likely more accurate, picture on that than before.

Interesting point about mil officers vs police officers in their "compliance." I think you are right on that point, as I mentioned before many military officers would absolutely do whatever their boss tells them unfortunately. There have been some interesting threads on that, with some links to the baumann article on when to "shoot" the colonel etc. There is a nearly complete lack of training in the military on the Constitution which is interesting considering everyone takes an oath to it yet receives almost no training on what that oath means. My personal non-scientific opinion is that given some unConsitutional order, to pick an example out of thin air call it some kind of large military enforcement action in CONUS like a cordon/blockade of a city as an example, that the junior enlisted, some very very senior enlisted, and the senior officers will do what they are told. The young just don't know enough and the senior have so much invested and have surrendered their own judgment for career advancement so many times that they don't critically think about anything but their career anymore. I can tell you though that I am pretty sure the mid level NCOs and the midlevel officers are going to be a problem for anyone trying to pull a fast one on the american people. In general they still can use independent judgment, make up the backbone of combat effectiveness, and pretty much do all the work. Colonels and above literally wouldn't even know where to take a piss without them.

Funny comment about police officers being "non-compliant" personalities. Fighter pilots are the same, trying to lead a group of them is like herding cats, ready to throw down over something as unimportant as where to go to lunch. They will definitely be a problem for a commander who orders a potential misuse of the military on American soil. Hell they are already a problem as it is. In that scenario any nefarious powers that be would better be scared to load the jets for fear of where the ordnance would actually go...unless they put a bunch of colonels in the cockpit in which case they should still be scared given how well most of them fly. Now the drone guys, that is a whole nuther subject, and a lot more concerning. The nature of that program easily lends itself to serious abuse in my opinion because of who goes to it and the detached non-combat environment of the operation. Warfare is reduced to a little 9x9 screen with zero personal risk, and is the combat equivalent of the Milgram experiment. If you don't know about that Yale psychology study, read about it here..Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It is a very, very disturbing insight into human nature, and needs to be mandatory research for anyone who leads people. It opened my eyes to how fragile freedom and morality really is. It has been repeated worldwide with consistent results across cultures, and you can see videos of it in action. Once you read it/see it, and then consider what drone operators do, you will understand we are going to have a serious problem with that element of modern warfare in the future.
 
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KYPatriot,

I appreciate it, but I was certainly no poster-boy for Law Enforcement.

Funnily enough, I was a mid-level NCO (very senior in my Unit) and had occasion to refuse an order. I thought my Gunny's head was going to explode :)
I ended up solving the problem within Constitutional boundaries and I miraculously avoided discipline.
Many years later while mentoring a Big Army unit, I ended up picking up body parts, literally, after a Company grade officer who knew what he was doing refused to buck a Field Grade that DIDN'T and went along with a very poorly conceived modification to an ops plan. AFTER 2 KIA in the first 10mins, the junior officer decided to do his own thing and just pretended to be following the Major's plan and we completed the op with no more bloodshed.

Orkan raised some issues about being compelled by law to surrender certain liberties at the courthouse or wherever. NO segment of our population signs away MORE of their individual liberties than our servicemen, domestically or abroad. To a huge degree, they also surrender all independent thought and initiative. EVERY Police Dept, even the worst in the country, has a higher recruiting standard than the military. I know that seems as though I'm trashing the Services, but that's really not my intent. KY rightly pointed out that the Military swears an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution, but I'd venture to say that maybe 10% of the enlistees have even read it.

On a complete aside, a page of two ago, were a couple of references to DHS and their impact on Local LE. Unless something has changed in the last 4-5rs I've been gone, DHS funding and grants cannot be used to purchase weapons. I know because I tried :eek: There was a very specific "firearm" that was developed by a mad-genius I had occasion to speak to, which was specifically designed for long-distance disruption of IEDs. It would have filled a niche that no one has yet addressed, and I was trying to get it funded for the Bomb Squad I was on, but it was a no-go. We even explained how it's end-use was NOT as a firearm, but rather as a stand-off disrupter for devices where a safe approach wasn't possible. Because it fired a projectile and could be configured with a trigger as well as being fired remotely, DHS denied it.

To get back to biggest possible picture here, in my opinion the only way for meaningful change to take place is with our choices in elected leaders. I remember the Reagan era as a time when Americans were FUCKING PROUD of being American. It was "us" against "them". We had personal accountability and the government tit wasn't flopped out of its shirt every time an election came around to buy votes with. We didn't view the government as the provider of all of our daily needs, we viewed it as our voice on the world stage. As long as the citizenry is conditioned that all things come from the government, rather than from self initiative and personal achievement, there will continue to be this disconnect, and by extension the role of LE in society will be askew as it is now.
 
I can second the above opinion, in that the "good" officers are most often pushed out. Several of my friends are Ex-LEO.

Why is it, that the "good" officers have to try so hard to ensure their respective PD's aren't abusing their power? Shouldn't those course corrections come from above? Why are they being told to do the things that are putting the officers at odds with the public at large? There in lies the truth of the problem. The boys in blue are the last in the chain, continually operating under the lie that they are there to make people safe. They are there to enforce laws. The two are often completely contradictory. Comes back to trying to enforce an impossible mandate.
 
I can second the above opinion, in that the "good" officers are most often pushed out. Several of my friends are Ex-LEO.

Why is it, that the "good" officers have to try so hard to ensure their respective PD's aren't abusing their power? Shouldn't those course corrections come from above? Why are they being told to do the things that are putting the officers at odds with the public at large? There in lies the truth of the problem. The boys in blue are the last in the chain, continually operating under the lie that they are there to make people safe. They are there to enforce laws. The two are often completely contradictory. Comes back to trying to enforce an impossible mandate.

Orkan,

I can't comment for every PD, but from what I have seen/ experienced is that the Mayor/ City Council goes to the Chief and says "What are you doing about XYZ problems? We've been hearing complaints" The Chief then goes to Mid Management and says "The Mayor/ Council is on my ass about this, fucking fix it". Middle management goes to supervisors and says "Chief says this WILL happen by COB today. I want XYZ results today!!!!!" Road guy is then forced to come up with creative ways to shirk the stupidity, or follow along with the knee jerk reindeer games.

Cops can get creative if they're not trying to kiss ass up the ladder. My last Chief (RAGING ASSHOLE) mandated that we stop at least 10 cars a shift and issue some type of paper. He claimed it wan't a quota, but a "reasonable expectation". OK, so I stopped 10 cars and issued 10 warnings. He then proclaimed that we needed at least 10 FIR's a week. If I had no reason to stop and question someone about a crime, I just FIR'ed headstones in the graveyard. He was pissed about the warnings, but never found out about the headstones. My Sgt. looked out for us on that one.

Being 100% honest here, when I first got into LE, I worked for the largest SO in our area. I didn't have to know shit about the law, or how to handle a call. My Corporal was usually no more than 10 minutes out from any call. All I had to know was his cell number at first. Sure, I knew when to lock people up, but really didn't operate with discretion at all.

Once I (and 29 other Deputies) were laid off, I worked for a small PD (where I remain to this day). I QUICKLY had to know how to handle calls on my own, get a handle on knowing the laws, and most importantly (IMHO)- how to talk to people. No alternative when you work by yourself, and backup is 10-15 minutes away.
 
I can second the above opinion, in that the "good" officers are most often pushed out. Several of my friends are Ex-LEO.

Why is it, that the "good" officers have to try so hard to ensure their respective PD's aren't abusing their power? Shouldn't those course corrections come from above? Why are they being told to do the things that are putting the officers at odds with the public at large? There in lies the truth of the problem. The boys in blue are the last in the chain, continually operating under the lie that they are there to make people safe. They are there to enforce laws. The two are often completely contradictory. Comes back to trying to enforce an impossible mandate.

Ya know, I never really viewed my position as "keeping people safe". When I'd talk to citizens about it, I was very honest about our capabilities. Because I initially worked a VERY compressed "urban" area, my response times to a call were pretty fantastic if I wasn't tied up on something. I mean like 2-3 minutes from dispatch to arrival if not sooner. Now our dispatch system for the PD sucked ass compared to the Fire Dept (and they sat next to each other) so the FD would already by on scene before I even got called. However, for today's LE, my response times in that beat were great. I would still tell citizens to have a plan for defending themselves. That could be anything from a home-defense gun to sucking their thumb and crying while they waited on us to show up. It was up to them, but I was explicit that I was not capable of being there to protect them. I would get there ASAP to help clean up the aftermath, but to NOT count on me to "be there" at the time of an incident.

I viewed my job more as helping to maintain order in my beat and provide the best environment for the people living in it to go about their daily lives. Now for most of them, that meant the ability to sit on their porches and drink wine or beer while they waited on the Mail Man to deliver their next "pay" check. But they lived there (I lived in my beat as well) so they deserved to be able to sit on their porch without catching a stray round or having 15 drug dealers congregating on the corner. It meant being able to wake up in the morning without their cars and sheds broken into.
There was a month where 2 groups of thugs got into a pretty serious beef and we had like 6 or 8 shootings with 2 or 3 KIA in the span of the month. Totally gang-on-gang but it was a noisy month in that beat. My Captain (one of the GREAT ones) had a neighborhood meeting to talk to the folks and address any concerns they had about the neighborhood. Do you want to guess what their number 1 complaint was?: Loud car stereos and cars speeding past their houses. THAT was the quality of life issue they cared most about, even with multiple shootings in their neighborhood. So guess what I ended up doing: that's right, I ended up writing tickets for loud stereos and speeding and the people were as happy as they could be. My buddy and I also managed to snatch up a couple of the shooters in the midst of all that "high speed" policing, but the people really didn't care about that, in fact they came out and fussed at us for "messing with those poor boys". Go figure.

I was there to solve problems that the people weren't in a position to solve themselves. Some of that involved actual police work and a ton of it involved social-work. Was that an effective and proper application of the police, who the hell knows. I mediated disputes; counseled recalcitrant kids; humored mental patients; both fed and arrested the homeless & prostitutes depending on the circumstances, and chased and fought very violent bad guys.
 
Bogey, that solidifies my point. Society at large has changed so drastically far from what it once was.

Truth be told, I don't really care how police treat the shitbags among us. Those very people you reference above... I truly could care less. If you are on welfare of any kind, you should lose your right to vote until such time as you are off it for a period of 1 year. They are bottom feeders and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see whom the police spend most of their time interacting with.

Unfortunately the law makes no distinction between the career criminal shitbag types, and people that have not had any serious violations in their life. To expect an officer that spends his day dealing with the worst shitbags and area has to offer, to then encounter a regular law-abiding citizen and treat them with the level of respect they should be afforded is a tall order. One that most people are not mentally equipped to handle.

Personally, I could care less if an officer is "polite" or not. What matters to me is whether or not he knows his job. If they infringe upon my rights, it doesn't much matter how friendly or "polite" they are about it. Reference this instance from two years ago: Primal Rights ? View topic - You are not gonna fuckn believe this... Read that whole thread and you'll understand how just about every police interaction I've ever had goes.
 
Slinky I have to say, after working for a huge department and now working for a mid-size to small (50 sworn vs. 1200) LEO work is a totally different. I have the benefit of an excellent management, a more hands off board of selectmen and the ability to choose only the best officers. Our department had five openings and 460 applied. After the written and PT testing we were down to 200 so very good odds that you can pick the right people for the job. In my small department supervisors are not just encouraged to do daily roll call training it is mandated. We are also involved with almost every call and assist the new officers to make the right decisions. It is a VERY good system.

BB and Orkan, good cops are driven out of LE work at an alarming rate, that is true. I wanted to leave and if at the time there were any aviation jobs anywhere I would have been out in 2000 but I made the lateral to a smaller PD and life improved. In 2005 when the new Chief was hired. From then on there was a drive to hire well, promote well and don't just color between the lines and hide behind the thin blue line.

KYpatriot, Jet guys is like that, but us rotor heads do not suffer the same ego problems the fast burners do (sarc)

Sully
 
Sully that's because people with egos also have self preservation instinct...which apparently rotor guys lack!

Lol true story. Right before I went to OIF the first time I called USAA cause I figured I had better get some more life insurance. (As it turns out our daily training regimen at home was more dangerous than flying combat in Iraq but I digress...) anyway the Usaa rep says " I see on your profile it says you are a pilot, do you fly helicopters?" I said "no, F15s" She says "oh I can help you then!"

Sounds like life insurance for helo guys must take a special department or something! Probably 10 grand of insurance for $1000 a month lol.
 
Sully that's because people with egos also have self preservation instinct...which apparently rotor guys lack!

Lol true story. Right before I went to OIF the first time I called USAA cause I figured I had better get some more life insurance. (As it turns out our daily training regimen at home was more dangerous than flying combat in Iraq but I digress...) anyway the Usaa rep says " I see on your profile it says you are a pilot, do you fly helicopters?" I said "no, F15s" She says "oh I can help you then!"

Sounds like life insurance for helo guys must take a special department or something! Probably 10 grand of insurance for $1000 a month lol.

I had a similar conversation with USAA. Try getting insurance as a contractor over here, it was a VERY short conversation and one of the few times USAA has ever flat out said NO to something I've asked.
 
Yep great antithesis to first video and how it should've been and proof that it can (and must) be different. But i have a feeling this officer Paul will never make head of PD or any really decision making position simply not leadership material in this twisted world - too honest and down to earth.
 
I had watched that one when I was going through a ton of them on youtube. I didn't offer it up as an example of an officer doing it "right", because the contention through this thread seems to be that he shouldn't have done it "at all". Meaning that even though he was about as laid back as you could hope for, he was still THERE and made contact rather than pissing off as has been suggested.

Did I misunderstand some of the points raised during the discussion? I guess this one is a little different in that it's a "static protest" and not 2 guys walking down a sidewalk through town, so it's less intrusive for him to make contact?

Not being sarcastic of snarky, I'm trying to get a real understanding of what y'all deem to be okay and not okay.
 
I think the difference is that the first video has two guys walking and getting stopped for no lawful reason, the above example the group is stopped and demonstrating, cop just came over to see what they were demonstrating about, engaged them in a non threatening manner. I think if the cop engaged the first guys in a non threatening manner most would have no issue with it. At the end of the day cops are citizens too and can engage fellow citizens in normal conversation, when they use deadly threats is when they are no longer citizens but authorities and agents of the state.

I had watched that one when I was going through a ton of them on youtube. I didn't offer it up as an example of an officer doing it "right", because the contention through this thread seems to be that he shouldn't have done it "at all". Meaning that even though he was about as laid back as you could hope for, he was still THERE and made contact rather than pissing off as has been suggested.

Did I misunderstand some of the points raised during the discussion? I guess this one is a little different in that it's a "static protest" and not 2 guys walking down a sidewalk through town, so it's less intrusive for him to make contact?

Not being sarcastic of snarky, I'm trying to get a real understanding of what y'all deem to be okay and not okay.
 
Thats exactly the point (which some policemen can't seem to grasp - i suppose that might be because badge and gun are the thing that define them not a person they are -> like in the army you have officers/NCOs who simply have the authority without even trying and would have it no matter the rank or position or circumstance and some won't have it even with 4 stars and ton of medals on their chest and regardless of their shouting, bossing or pushing people around) he came over as a normal person and not as an uniformed rottweiler on meth with rabies on top.
 
I had watched that one when I was going through a ton of them on youtube. I didn't offer it up as an example of an officer doing it "right", because the contention through this thread seems to be that he shouldn't have done it "at all". Meaning that even though he was about as laid back as you could hope for, he was still THERE and made contact rather than pissing off as has been suggested.

Did I misunderstand some of the points raised during the discussion? I guess this one is a little different in that it's a "static protest" and not 2 guys walking down a sidewalk through town, so it's less intrusive for him to make contact?

Not being sarcastic of snarky, I'm trying to get a real understanding of what y'all deem to be okay and not okay.

Look at it this way.

Scenario 1: Someone calls 911 to tell the police that "there's someone driving a car on the road during the day." Would the response be "that's perfectly legal" or would it lead to a dispatch?

Scenario 2: Someone calles 911 to tell the police that "There's someone driving a car on the road and they are weaving all over the place". Would that lead to more questions in order to be able to investigate quickly because weaving around on the road (as opposed to just being on the road) is dangerous and sign of other things potentially illegal?

Same with the firearms. Someone called in to say "there are a bunch of guys with guns and signs". Had the call been qualified to determine if something menacing was going on then probably there wouldn't have been a need for a call out.

On the flip side. It would have been courteous of the protesters to inform the local PD that they were doing this and to say "sorry if you're going to get a lot of alarmed calls, but we think we need to educate the public that open carry when performed responsibly is firstly not illegal or dangerous. We'd appreciate it greatly if you'd say that to callers so you get less calls in the future."
 
event horizon,

though i sort of agree with the jist of the first part of your post,

Look at it this way.

Scenario 1: Someone calls 911 to tell the police that "there's someone driving a car on the road during the day." Would the response be "that's perfectly legal" or would it lead to a dispatch?

Scenario 2: Someone calles 911 to tell the police that "There's someone driving a car on the road and they are weaving all over the place". Would that lead to more questions in order to be able to investigate quickly because weaving around on the road (as opposed to just being on the road) is dangerous and sign of other things potentially illegal?

Same with the firearms. Someone called in to say "there are a bunch of guys with guns and signs". Had the call been qualified to determine if something menacing was going on then probably there wouldn't have been a need for a call out.


that last part not so much.

On the flip side. It would have been courteous of the protesters to inform the local PD that they were doing this and to say "sorry if you're going to get a lot of alarmed calls, but we think we need to educate the public that open carry when performed responsibly is firstly not illegal or dangerous. We'd appreciate it greatly if you'd say that to callers so you get less calls in the future."


theyre not technically protesters until they begin getting harassed for constitutionally guaranteed behavior. theyre just pedestrians. should i also call the police and let them know that im going to be taking a walk with a cigarette lit? some alarmed citizen might fear that im a possible arsonist.
 
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BOTTOM LINE: Cops are not nor ever will be the smartest apples in the bunch. They are human garbage men that have been given exponentially too much power by our corporate police state.

I'm smart now because I watched Lowlights video "pupil of the art of the tactical rifle", and now I can tie my shoes and I am now Operator as Fuck! And my badge didn't give me the power..... Lowlight transferred the power to me through his teachings, so watch out pubic.

Sully
 
I'm smart now because I watched Lowlights video "pupil of the art of the tactical rifle", and now I can tie my shoes and I am now Operator as Fuck! And my badge didn't give me the power..... Lowlight transferred the power to me through his teachings, so watch out pubic.

Sully

And all this time I thought it was the Spin-D
 
I'm smart now because I watched Lowlights video "pupil of the art of the tactical rifle", and now I can tie my shoes and I am now Operator as Fuck! And my badge didn't give me the power..... Lowlight transferred the power to me through his teachings, so watch out pubic.

Sully
Not sure what you're referring to in your quote, except that you seem upset at what I said.

Let me clarify in a less offensive and long-winded way:
Cops are working class joes like everyone else. Not Stephen Hawking or Nuclear Physicists or Jesus. They have a really frustrating job and they have to often deal with the worst people in society. To expect them to treat you like a polite English butler is just illogical. Provoke to get a reaction and you just might get a reaction, hold them to a platinum standard when you pay them platinum wages.
That being said, with the recent erosion of our Constitutional rights, they have gained a scary amount of power and the potential for abuse is increasing accordingly. And it's not the "police" per say I am worried about, but the dirty politicians at the top who pull the strings.

If firearms were an accepted part of society as on the past, and not a part of the progressive political agenda, this situation wouldn't have been an issue IMO.

And no, I'm no smarter than any cop, just a normal working joe. And I'm not perfect at MY job all the time either.
 
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Not sure what you're referring to in your quote, except that you seem upset at what I said.

Let me clarify in a less offensive and long-winded way:
Cops are working class joes like everyone else. Not Stephen Hawking or Nuclear Physicists or Jesus. They have a really frustrating job and they have to often deal with the worst people in society. To expect them to treat you like a polite English butler is just illogical. Provoke to get a reaction and you just might get a reaction, hold them to a platinum standard when you pay them platinum wages.
That being said, with the recent erosion of our Constitutional rights, they have gained a scary amount of power and the potential for abuse is increasing accordingly. And it's not the "police" per say I am worried about, but the dirty politicians at the top who pull the strings.

If firearms were an accepted part of society as on the past, and not a part of the progressive political agenda, this situation wouldn't have been an issue IMO.

And no, I'm no smarter than any cop, just a normal working joe. And I'm not perfect at MY job all the time either.

HunterB, upset?? Not at all sir. Takes a whole lot more to rattle my cage and I took no real offense. I did misunderstand where you were going and decide to fall back on sarcasm, as that is my nature. As for the video, to appreciate it fully you must review the EddyG thread here in the Bear Pit then go to the rifle section and look for Lowlights video "pupil of the art of the tactical rifle..." and then you will understand the thread of sarcasm that runs through this site.

So nothing is ever taken personally and if someone does get ticked and the feathers fly grab some popcorn and watch the fun unfold.

And thank you for clearing up your thoughts in your second post. Hell I think your a freaking genus now.

Sully