Pedersen Device?

[Rookie]

According to Hatcher's Book of the Garand, pages 55 and 56 regarding the Pedersen Device, "This was an automatic bolt for the Springfield rifle, which would convert the Springfield instantly to a 40-shot semiautomatic repeater. It was designed to use a caliber .30 pistol-type cartridge fed from 40-shot magazines. The automatic bolt was interchangeable with the regular bold of the M1903 rifle. This bolt was officially called by the purposely misleading name of 'pistol, Caliber.30, Model of 1918'. Five hundred thousand of these Pedersen Devices were to be put into action suddenly in March 1919, but before that date arrived the Armistice of 1918 was signed and the 65,000 devices and 69,000,000 rounds of ammunition were never used."

Later references in the book indicate that the devices were later destroyed, leaving very few to be found anywhere. This fascinates me. Has anyone ever seen a Pedersen Device? Heard of one? Own one? What about the ammo?

 

[Rookie]

PS, I read about an expired auction on gunbroker for the device where the seller was asking $50,000 for it, with no picture or proof that he actually had one. I saw an expired auction for a box of the ammo where the guy was asking $375. Don't know if it sold.

 

[Rookie]

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/this_is_the_unusual_pedersen_device.jpg

 

[ChrisBCS]

A local gun store here wanted an obscene amount for an M1903 in a Mark I stock. The tag even read something like "ultra rare, Pederson device 1903". I asked to see the device, and the reply was that the rifle didn't have it, it was just made for it. Roll eyes.

When I mentioned their destruction, I got a "oh no, there are still a few in existence, they are just very rare to see"

"Yeah, like Bigfoot"

Cue exit.

 

[HD-Ghost]

The Mark I's are very common, but the devices as you've found are not. I have seen a couple in my life-time, but have never seen the ammo. It really would have been a great mod if the ammo had been .30 carbine. A really cool collector's item, but definitely out of my collector's budget. Don't remember them being in the $50k arena. Rock Island Auction always seems to cough one up every year (or maybe they keep reselling just the one).

 

[Rookie]

I read somewhere that re-enactors have made non working replicas for their Mark 1s.

 

[Rookie]

Wouldn't it be cool have a modern day version for a modern rifle like a Rem 700. Cant believe Rem or Ruger haven't come up with one.

 

[MZ5]

Chapter XV of "Hatcher's Notebook" is devoted to the Pedersen Device. There are pictures of the device, both alone and mounted on a Springfield rifle, on pages 362, 364, 366, and 368, as well as a picture of the author's son (Lt. Robert D. Hatcher) firing one in 1947, on page 370. Although Hatcher writes in this book, too, that "all" the Pedersen Devices were destroyed shortly after WWI once the Army decided to not spend any more time or money even on storage, it is clear from the 1947 photo that at least one survived that destruction. HTH

 

[Dan M]

A large number of Pedersen Devices were destroyed by burning. The M1903MkI rifles were treated as regualr service rifles, and had their peculiar cut off and sear removed when rebuilt.

I used to own M1903MkI s/n 1036724, had an SA 11-18 barrel, MkI stock with boxed SPL final inspection stamp, Mk 1 sear and cut off.

Ammunition for Pedersen Device:

The 40 round boxes were packaged 5 per 200 round parcel.

 

[Mike Radford]

A large number of Pedersen Devices were destroyed by burning. The M1903MkI rifles were treated as regualr service rifles, and had their peculiar cut off and sear removed when rebuilt.

I used to own M1903MkI s/n 1036724, had an SA 11-18 barrel, MkI stock with boxed SPL final inspection stamp, Mk 1 sear and cut off.

Ammunition for Pedersen Device:

The 40 round boxes were packaged 5 per 200 round parcel.

Very nice box of ammo and more rare than the device. I have seen several of the Peterson Devices. There has been one on display at about every NGD day show, four times a year, for about 15 years. They hard to find, expensive, but not impossible. Price seems to range from $40-75K. There have been a few fakes made so be careful. The ammo is even harder to find so if a person had one it would be too pricey to fire.

 

[303_enfield]

Held a few. Last one sold for $55,000. Ammo can be found $$. Saw one fired an the fucker broke! Guy still sold it for $35,000 in 2011. Last I "heard" twenty five are known in the wild.

 

[rpk762]

Anyone know where blueprints are?

 

[pmclaine]

My local honey hole gun shop had one of the "burned ones" last time I was there. Also had a complete Mark 1 which was neat to see because with the device and rifle in hand I was able to get an understanding of what the "sandwich" sear looks like and how it works.

The story about many of the devices being destroyed is true. They were apparently put in a pit and burned. But as in the case of the one I handled some were walked away from the fire in still pretty much good condition. Unknown how the fire affected any metal strength required to safely fire the thing but apparently the round was pretty low pressure.

 

[ChrisBCS]

One of my favorite parts of my M1903 is the Mark I stock. It's a mixmaster (CMP Greek return, 1918 receiver re-barreled in 1944) that shoots like the hammers of hell, but I have had multiple people trying to build complete Mark I's (sans device) have asked if I would be willing to sell it.

 

[n64atlas]

I have a Mark I with the correct trigger. I don't have the cut off. I found the trigger at a gunshow many years ago. Mine
was slightly sporterized by replacing the front sight with a ramp. It also had a commercial stock when I bought it. It is in a scant stock now.
One of these days I'll find the right stock and cut ff for it.
Dick Cullvers wife owned a complete MkI with the device. She would walk around gunshows with if strapped on her back.
She said people and dealers would stop her and want to buy it for some low ball price, thinking she didn't know what it was.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Closest I've been is the one in the NRA mini museum in the Bass Pro HQ in Springfield, MO.

 

[LanceS4803]

John Spangler (Antique and Collectable Firearms and Militaria Headquarters) has a complete Pedersen setup that he displays on a rotating basis with the Utah Gun Collectors Association and also with the Colorado collectors show.
He has every piece and accessory for the rifle, device and ammunition and it is impressive, to say the least.

Here are some of his unusual Springfields:
10 Oddball '03 Springfield Variants

 

[VJJPunisher]

as noted the MK1's are out there, I have a CMP one in awsome shape, they are easy to spot with the gaping hole in the left side of the reciever for the ejection port. Ive wondered why there are not pederson device replicas out there?

 

[pmclaine]

The Pederson device really is a rube goldberg invention and a great example of 'Murican thinking outside the box - "So here is an idea lets turn this bolt rifle into a semi auto pistol. BRILLIANT! Lets build 50,000 of them to start"

Fortunately they never got used. I wonder how well they would have worked in the confines/shit of the trenches as intended. Would the "sandwich" sear get crudded up? Would the low power cartridge work heavily fouled? Would the bullet penetrate a wool coated, sausage stuffed German?

I dont know if it was the best idea but I appreciate that we used to be a country that had the balls to push the envelope.

Giving the choice of being "edgey" in Rap music and social causes or hard technology Ill take the engineer and going back to the moon in a minute.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

There is a Pederson in the Springfield Armory. Along with the blueprints. I believe that anyone can get a copy of the prints, it's just a matter of asking and paying the archivist to copy them. I'll ask next time I am down there. I can't believe they aren't already floating around the Internet.

Problem with making the Pederson device is that... you will just be making a dud that never really worked, more often than not broke and messed up perfectly good rifles. It was really an attempt by the Ordnance Dept. to save money by converting bolt rifles so they did not have to buy Thompson's "Trench Broom" submachine gun and Browning's BAR.

It was an interesting concept... but far better on paper than in real life. I think they made about 50,000 Pederson devices or more but burned them in the '30s. Your grandfather's tax dollars at work.

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS: Pederson device was not along in goofy conversions... The Snider Enfield (British)... Trapdoor Springfield was a single-shot breechloader conversion of an existing rifle... and the Colt .22 conversion for the 1911 (I have one of those... works pretty well.) Though I can't say the same about the .22 conversion kit for the M16, which I always thought a horrible waste of time. Works, yes, but ever try and clean out the barrel and gas system which fills up with lead shaved off of .22's? Never understood the value of that little device except that, again, it looked good on paper.

 

[JGaynor]

One of the most interesting side stories regarding the pedersen device came from former ordnance officer and gun writer Phil Sharpe. When Sharpe was inspecting a captured German ordnaNce plant in 1945 (DWM?) hanging on the wall of their reference collection was a US M1903 MK1 complete with the Top Secret Pedersen Device!. Plant officials were hazy on the origin but said it had been hanging there for at least 20 years.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

My personal favorite resource for all things 1903:

M1903

And the cmp forum has some good stuff on the Mann device.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

One of the most interesting side stories regarding the pedersen device came from former ordnance officer and gun writer Phil Sharpe. When Sharpe was inspecting a captured German ordnaNce plant in 1945 (DWM?) hanging on the wall of their reference collection was a US M1903 MK1 complete with the Top Secret Pedersen Device!. Plant officials were hazy on the origin but said it had been hanging there for at least 20 years.

GIven that the Pederson device was in essence a knockoff of the Luger toggle action the Dwm people probably had it hanging on the wall for s**** and giggles. Ach zoze zilly ameriksners..... Cheers

 

[biffj]

GIven that the Pederson device was in essence a knockoff of the Luger toggle action the Dwm people probably had it hanging on the wall for s**** and giggles. Ach zoze zilly ameriksners..... Cheers

Where did that myth come from? The pederson device was a straight blowback semi-auto using a special trigger/sear, cutoff switch and the special mk 1 receiver with the ejection port in the side. The stock was cutout as well to clear the port. On the other hand the luger is a locked breech toggle action and in no way resembles the pederson device. In reality the pederson device was kept pretty secret til after the war when they burned almost all of them. The NRA Museum has one....at least one and phil schreier used it in one of the shows they did on whatever cable channel the NRA had. The thing didn't work right but he was terrified to let me look at it and see what was wrong. We were at a friends farm where I was in the process of taking his pederson device apart to see how it worked and what needed to done to set his rifle up. Looking at the thing I came to the conclusion that the reason they burned them all was that they didn't work right and we (the govt) didn't want to admit it. They use the firing pin for the ejector which is novel and actually works for a little bit. Timing is crucial and the ejection port is too small. The ammo must be loaded within pretty small specs as too much or too little poop means it won't eject or cycle. They were a neat idea at the time but Hugo Schmeisser and his bunch showed us that the submachinegun was the future and they were simpler to build and operate.
There have been some replicas built of the Pederson device but after looking at my friends with an eye toward doing a run of them I decided it wasn't worth the effort. Originals are out there and they occasionally sell publicly as in auctions etc. I've seen them sell for prices ranging from about $20K in the late nineties to over $50K more recently. Accessories are valuable as well with the stamped sheet metal holster/ carry can selling for over $10 about 3 years ago. Most of these trade between friends where we never see what they sold for. So I'd say they could go a bit higher or lower than that $50K figure. Most of the owners will never even attempt to shoot them and that is probably best. The round they used ended up being copied by the french for their sidearms and subguns just prior to WWII. The MAS 38 Subgun uses the round and while its fun to shoot I'd not want my life to depend on that round.

As to the luger confusion the only thing I can think of is the Pederson rifle which used a toggle action. It was not based on the luger as the toggle was more of a hesitation lock for delayed blowback where the luger is a solid locked breech recoil operated action. Vickers built a goodly number of the Pederson rifles and they come up occasionally as well. There are a lot of toggle actions out there and in reality Hiram Maxim copied his from a handcranked machinegun designed just before the civil war. Hugo Borchardt basically invented the action which Georg Luger refined into the luger pistol and it was based on Hiram Maxim's guns moreso than not. Karl Heinemann designed a toggle action rifle in the early 1900's that had a sideloading action and the Swiss had a wide range of toggle operated sub, light and heavy machineguns, anti tank and anti aircraft guns and others. They used a different system than the luger as well. Rumors of guns being copies of other guns are rampant and in reality there is nothing new out there. We all copy bits and pieces of things we know work while adding our own details to meet our needs. I can say categorically that the pederson device is unrelated and not copied from the luger though....


Frank

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Frank:

Very interesting post... and the Pederson Rifle action is the origin of my error. Pictured below.

Clearly not a Pederson device, but for some reason I always had this image in my mind when I pictured the operation of the conversion!

Appreciate the correction and the education! I would also add that while Luger and Borchardt both refined toggle actions, it may be argued that the earliest toggle actions were in the Volcanic repeaters... which went on to become lever action Winchesters... Good ideas always seem to stick around!

Again thanks for a great post and cheers,

Sirhr

 

[JGaynor]

Karl Heinemann designed a toggle action rifle in the early 1900's that had a sideloading action and the Swiss had a wide range of toggle operated sub, light and heavy machineguns, anti tank and anti aircraft guns and others. They used a different system than the luger as well. Rumors of guns being copies of other guns are rampant and in reality there is nothing new out there. We all copy bits and pieces of things we know work while adding our own details to meet our needs. I can say categorically that the pederson device is unrelated and not copied from the luger though....


Frank

There is a picture of the Heinemann rifle in Hatcher's notebook. My Uncle was intelligence officer and acquired what appeared to me to be a carbine version of the same rifle from a german munitions plant during the occupation. Toggle action on the right side of the receiver and fed from a detachable box on the left. The thing was completely in the white and didn't have a mark or number on it. The finger lever on the toggle was on a separate pivot apparently to provide an extra 'kick' when the action closed. The gas mechanism was, as I recall, an external attachment similar to some of the later German G41 types. Unfortunately the box magazine was missing so no idea as to caliber or whether it was semi auto or selective. Very well made piece.

 

[biffj]

Frank:

Very interesting post... and the Pederson Rifle action is the origin of my error. Pictured below.

Clearly not a Pederson device, but for some reason I always had this image in my mind when I pictured the operation of the conversion!

Appreciate the correction and the education! I would also add that while Luger and Borchardt both refined toggle actions, it may be argued that the earliest toggle actions were in the Volcanic repeaters... which went on to become lever action Winchesters... Good ideas always seem to stick around!

Again thanks for a great post and cheers,

Sirhr

You are 100% correct in saying that the Volcanic pistol and rifle were toggle actions and indeed they were one of the forerunners of the later guns. There were a few earlier types as well though not anything that was done commercially. Lots of Toggles out there. I just fired my TB41 today and it is one of the Swiss Furrer actions using a toggle that is locked to the barrel extension and frame to control the bolt throughout its travel. No depending on springs for timing. I'm using reduced capacity cases and loads so its not cycling completely but it is a neat piece to watch. I like toggles....by the way the TB41 is an Anti-Tank Rifle firing a 24mm projectile weighing 225grams (about a half pound) at 900meters per second (2950 fps more or less). I'm shooting 195gram projos at a velocity unknown so far. Just starting to work up loads as the guns haven't been used since the Swiss army shot the last of their ammo in the 60's. Gotta come up with my own recipe.

J Gaynor,
The Heinemann is a neat piece. The NRA museum has a couple but its tough to get those guys to allow any examination of these jewels. They were made in a few different cals so a chamber cast is about the only way to know for sure.

Pictured is the TB41 sitting on the mount for the Swiss watercooled Maxim MG11 machinegun. The Anti-tank gun would fit a mount made for it, the MG mount or could be fired while it sits on the ground. The picture from the rear shows the cocking handle retracting the bolt and the toggle links sticking out the left side of the receiver. The gun is recoil operated and weighs about 170lb without the mount. The mount pictured weighs about 55lb so we're over 200lb. Mag holds 6 rds and is self ejecting after loading round 6. Its semi auto.

Frank

 

[JGaynor]

Frank, i went with my Uncle to the old NRA museum in Washington DC when he donated the "Heinemann (?)" to their collection along with a few other choice pieces. This would have occurred 30-40 years ago. i hope they still have the piece in their collection.

Regards,
Jim

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You are 100% correct in saying that the Volcanic pistol and rifle were toggle actions and indeed they were one of the forerunners of the later guns. There were a few earlier types as well though not anything that was done commercially. Lots of Toggles out there. I just fired my TB41 today and it is one of the Swiss Furrer actions using a toggle that is locked to the barrel extension and frame to control the bolt throughout its travel. No depending on springs for timing. I'm using reduced capacity cases and loads so its not cycling completely but it is a neat piece to watch. I like toggles....by the way the TB41 is an Anti-Tank Rifle firing a 24mm projectile weighing 225grams (about a half pound) at 900meters per second (2950 fps more or less). I'm shooting 195gram projos at a velocity unknown so far. Just starting to work up loads as the guns haven't been used since the Swiss army shot the last of their ammo in the 60's. Gotta come up with my own recipe.

J Gaynor,
The Heinemann is a neat piece. The NRA museum has a couple but its tough to get those guys to allow any examination of these jewels. They were made in a few different cals so a chamber cast is about the only way to know for sure.

Pictured is the TB41 sitting on the mount for the Swiss watercooled Maxim MG11 machinegun. The Anti-tank gun would fit a mount made for it, the MG mount or could be fired while it sits on the ground. The picture from the rear shows the cocking handle retracting the bolt and the toggle links sticking out the left side of the receiver. The gun is recoil operated and weighs about 170lb without the mount. The mount pictured weighs about 55lb so we're over 200lb. Mag holds 6 rds and is self ejecting after loading round 6. Its semi auto.

Frank

Pretty cool DD. I just got the approval on the paperwork for my Boys... but am waiting for the barrel swap. The original barrel was plugged and welded years ago. I could have put on a .50 BMG barrel and had no issues... no paperwork. But too many .55 Boys have been converted and this one is brilliantly original, including having all kinds of accessories. So I'll end up handloading for it. And had to wait 9 months on paperwork. Totally worth it! I'll post some pictures when the barrel swap is finished.

Currently waiting on paperwork for a 60mm WW2 mortar (live). Once you go DD... it's all over!

Thanks for posting that piece!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Emilio]

I got to play with one and even shot a couple of rounds through one when I use to work on Mail Call.