Night Vision Photonis PD-Pro-B review

[WhereNow&How]

No tube is gonna work well in under a quarter moonlight unless you have an illuminator. (well, unless you have some massive objective lens that’s bringing in all the possible light it can get its hands on… 2124-lr, PVS-30, PVS-27, etc. etc)

Very well said.

The price for high spec filmless tubes just does not give enough of a real advantage in dark conditions to justify the price differential.

In those dark conditions you gotta fire up an illuminator to make real world decisions no matter how high the tube specs are.

 

[ljstack]

The INTENS replacement is the 4G tube. The current line of Photonis tubes for the commercial market is on our website at www.photonisdefense.com. Basically, ECHO tubes are commercial line tubes with MILSPEC performance that don't meet the specifications for our 4G tubes for one reason or another. It could be spots in one of the critical zones, or any of the other parameters that define our 4G line. You won't go wrong with an ECHO tube and a quick search of the internet will showcase performance. ECHO tubes are available now. Our 4G tubes are MILSPEC that meet the requirements of the US Army and our own specifications, they are also available now. Our 18mm Ultimate "5G" tube is a very specialized tube with a minimum FOM of 2800 with a target of >3000. The Ultimate tube is a thin tube which we designed for the special operations community specifically to be mated to a CMOS sensor for digital night vision. I'll attach a photo (an older photo as it shows the INTENS tube). In this photo you will see the 18mm 5G thin tube, a 16mm tube, an 18mm 4G hybrid which is used in our PD-PRO-Q, and an industry standard INTENS 18mm tube.

 

[Just Macca]

Something I’ve turned up that might be of interest. Check the difference in luminous gain on Photonis tubes when comparing standard Green to White Phosphor. For whatever reason, Photonis tubes provide much more gain in standard green. I personally stopped considering WP when I realised how much gain they give up to Green in the exact same models.

 

[Just Macca]

For reference 4G and 4G+ tubes were nearly 60,000K gain in Green - which is approaching high end thin film and “filmless” US Gen 3 tubes.

 

[GBMaryland]

They did indicate that green was used in their fused sensor tube, because it worked better for contrast / visual acuity.

I’d be very surprised if the green itself made any difference whatsoever [for system gain], as opposed to the equipment the different lines were made on.

I recall that L3 had upgraded the equipment they were using when the started doing WP, and that the WP tubes had much higher specs. It had everything to do with the updated manufacturing process / equipment… as opposed to one output color being better for system gain.

 

[ljstack]

For reference 4G and 4G+ tubes were nearly 60,000K gain in Green - which is approaching high end thin film and “filmless” US Gen 3 tubes.

This is true. Green phosphor provides better contrast and is what we recommend for operations in no moon, overcast skies and jungle environments if you need every ounce of contrast available.

 

[ljstack]

They did indicate that green was used in their fused sensor tube, because it worked better for contrast / visual acuity.

I’d be very surprised if the green itself made any difference whatsoever [for system gain], as opposed to the equipment the different lines were made on.

I recall that L3 had upgraded the equipment they were using when the started doing WP, and that the WP tubes had much higher specs. It had everything to do with the updated manufacturing process / equipment… as opposed to one output color being better for system gain.

The green phosphor does have technical properties that make it better in terms of contrast, one tangential property is the human eye’s capability to discern contrast better in hues of green.

 

[GBMaryland]

Larry, any comment on eyestrain with one phosphor versus the other?

 

[ljstack]

Nothing that we can pinpoint simply because it's really a function of brain interpretation of the images, the differences in individual eye biometrics, etc. About the only thing you can bet on is that NVG's in general cause eyestrain and it can be exacerbated by higher gain (brighter images) over time. One thing I haven't looked at is red phosphor. That might be interesting to study.

Here is one synopsis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34787060/

 

[koshkin]

Subjectively, I get a little less eye strain with white phosphor and that is primarily during use in mixed light environments.

I suspect it is very individual and varies with experience.

ILya

 

[GBMaryland]

Nothing that we can pinpoint simply because it's really a function of brain interpretation of the images, the differences in individual eye biometrics, etc. About the only thing you can bet on is that NVG's in general cause eyestrain and it can be exacerbated by higher gain (brighter images) over time. One thing I haven't looked at is red phosphor. That might be interesting to study.

Here is one synopsis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34787060/

This sounds like something I should try to get us to study, actually!

 

[GBMaryland]

Larry,

Next question:

I had thought that with the WP type Intens Photonis had a proprietary shade in their white phosphor, which had a slight blue tinge to it that the eyes more effectively used.

Still or ever the case?

 

[tangloppen]

Nothing that we can pinpoint simply because it's really a function of brain interpretation of the images, the differences in individual eye biometrics, etc. About the only thing you can bet on is that NVG's in general cause eyestrain and it can be exacerbated by higher gain (brighter images) over time. One thing I haven't looked at is red phosphor. That might be interesting to study.

Here is one synopsis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34787060/

I remember back in the day, there were a few pictures floating around of a specialty tube with red phosphor.
As I recall, it was a Litton.

 

[GBMaryland]

Yeah, there was a 25 mm tube made for one of the national labs by Liton with a red phosphor for astronomy purposes, I believe. Either that, or they were using it for lasers.

Someone offered to sell me one that was surplus and they wanted 10,000 bucks for it… So that I can put it in a TVS-5. However, I just didn’t think that was worth that kind of money given where we are today. (Even though that was 12 years ago.)

 

[Just Macca]

The green phosphor does have technical properties that make it better in terms of contrast, one tangential property is the human eye’s capability to discern contrast better in hues of green.

Thanks for all your time Larry. I had a question just to really explore and conclude the discussion on differences between the P43 (Green) and P45 (White) Phosphor tubes, as I’m finding it very difficult to find specific data sheets from Photonis on Luminous gain and EBI for 4G and 4G+ tubes.

My research indicates that P43 tubes are generally around 55,000 Gain with EBI around 1.5, and the P45 tubes are closer to 30,000 Gain with 2.5 EBI. My understanding is that this is due to Photonis’ methods of tube construction.

Is that backed by the data sheets you have? I understand and fully appreciate that those two specific numbers are truly not a great reflection of performance - in that less gain translates often into less scintillation and better resolution, that Halo control is significantly better, and FOM is quite good.

From my understanding although a L3 or Elbit Gen 3 may have better gain; in the light conditions where that increased gain is noticed - the scintillation (and consequently worse resolution) becomes its own limiting factor and it’s really a moot point.

 

[ljstack]

Let me state something that I say fairly often - at the end of the day the only thing that should matter is how the world looks to you at night using the night vision goggles you like no matter what the specification sheet states, or who makes them. Some folks will go for low EBI for example, and completely ignore the fact that that the goggle with that fantastic low EBI number they tout may also have (for example) a very low signal to noise ratio. Low EBI versus high SNR, which one? I'd probably go with the higher SNR, but even if I did, how the world looks through those goggles still trumps the numbers on the spec sheet, because everyone's brains interpret images differently. It's one reason there are so many rifle scopes on the market - why not just buy the one with the best specs? Because, it's more than just the number(s). The method of construction of a tube is pretty much the same for all the manufacturers, except for our 5G tube which is radically different. The critical elements and what makes our tubes different from the others is the type of coatings we use, the construction of the microchannel plate, the photocathode, and the front and rear objectives. A lot of folks will build their own NODS and don't give much thought to the fact that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. All of the parts have to be made to work with each other - not just from a mechanical perspective, but from a scientific integration perspective. L3 NODS work best with L3 image intensifier tubes, for example, and Photonis Defense NODS work best with Photonis image intensifier tubes.

 

[ljstack]

Larry,

Next question:

I had thought that with the WP type Intens Photonis had a proprietary shade in their white phosphor, which had a slight blue tinge to it that the eyes more effectively used.

Still or ever the case?

Photonis was the first to introduce white phosphor to the industry and so we do have a proprietary coating. When you were in our demonstration room you used a binocular that had two different types of tubes. One ours and another one (with better specifications) to compare it against. If you remember the color match between the tubes seemed pretty much the same, or least you didn't comment on any color differences. Much of what you see in photo's and videos come from people that don't bother to white balance the camera for each lighting condition and tube. It's important to white balance the camera for each shot to get a true comparison in terms of color differences. Eye strain from blue light (like the light emitted from your bright white computer screen) usually starts around 465nm to 500nm or so (I'm not a scientist so don't take that as scientific fact). Blue light below those numbers usually don't cause (as much) eye strain.

 

[ljstack]

Photonis tubes currently see from below 400nm to 1,100nm. The new tubes will see from below 400nm to 1,100nm or better. That should take care of your needs right there. Currently our NODS will take an ECOTI.

 

[ljstack]

The Ultimate tube is very unique. For the Thales system I mentioned it's a glass-on-glass system, meaning it has no twister fiber and the Thales NVG FOV is 47.5 degrees. No twister means less distortion in the image. In the US we'll probably get both versions - a twister version and one without a twister. Both are designed to be used in analog NVGs, except that the housing for the glass-on-glass is special and only the glass-on-glass 5G will fit in it. That means we'll need to design a new Photonis housing for glass-on-glass systems. The twister version of the should be able to fit in most any standard 18mm housing, except that it'll only be available in our own Vyper housing for a few years. We'll have 50 degree optics available for the Vyper in a few months, as well as 50 degree optics for the PD-PRO. So for anyone with a PD PRO system they may want to upgrade to 50 degree optics when they come in. The Ultimate can also be fitted to a CMOS. When used in that configuration it has no twister. For CMOS configurations the tube is adapted to the specific CMOS required by the customer and still outperforms all solid state sensors, even those that claim to be "night vision" capable. I should have some Ultimate tubes for our internal testing in Lancaster PA next month. As far as pricing, we still haven't nailed that down, but they won't be cheap, more than the current 4G's. Minimum FOM will be around 2800 or higher and if you like the ECHO or 4G, you'll love the Ultimate.

 

[ljstack]

Did he let you try the Ultimate? That’s what has had my closest attention in this thread.

 

[ljstack]

Let me state something that I say fairly often - at the end of the day the only thing that should matter is how the world looks to you at night using the night vision goggles you like no matter what the specification sheet states, or who makes them. Some folks will go for low EBI for example, and completely ignore the fact that that the goggle with that fantastic low EBI number they tout may also have (for example) a very low signal to noise ratio. Low EBI versus high SNR, which one? I'd probably go with the higher SNR, but even if I did, how the world looks through those goggles still trumps the numbers on the spec sheet, because everyone's brains interpret images differently. It's one reason there are so many rifle scopes on the market - why not just buy the one with the best specs? Because, it's more than just the number(s). The method of construction of a tube is pretty much the same for all the manufacturers, except for our Ultimate tube which is radically different. The critical elements and what makes our tubes different from the others is the type of coatings we use, the construction of the microchannel plate, the photocathode, and the front and rear objectives. A lot of folks will build their own NODS and don't give much thought to the fact that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. All of the parts have to be made to work with each other - not just from a mechanical perspective, but from a scientific integration perspective. L3 NODS work best with L3 image intensifier tubes, for example, and Photonis Defense NODS work best with Photonis image intensifier tubes.

 

[stefan73]

Let me state something that I say fairly often - at the end of the day the only thing that should matter is how the world looks to you at night using the night vision goggles you like no matter what the specification sheet states, or who makes them. Some folks will go for low EBI for example, and completely ignore the fact that that the goggle with that fantastic low EBI number they tout may also have (for example) a very low signal to noise ratio. Low EBI versus high SNR, which one? I'd probably go with the higher SNR, but even if I did, how the world looks through those goggles still trumps the numbers on the spec sheet, because everyone's brains interpret images differently. It's one reason there are so many rifle scopes on the market - why not just buy the one with the best specs? Because, it's more than just the number(s). The method of construction of a tube is pretty much the same for all the manufacturers, except for our 5G tube which is radically different. The critical elements and what makes our tubes different from the others is the type of coatings we use, the construction of the microchannel plate, the photocathode, and the front and rear objectives. A lot of folks will build their own NODS and don't give much thought to the fact that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. All of the parts have to be made to work with each other - not just from a mechanical perspective, but from a scientific integration perspective. L3 NODS work best with L3 image intensifier tubes, for example, and Photonis Defense NODS work best with Photonis image intensifier tubes.

Hard part for us that don't have different option readily available to try is to determine what looks best via the one thing we do have access to, the numbers. While I would love to try some photonis products, I just don't have the luxury readily available.

One guy had talked about doing a NV tour and lining it up with various ranges across the US to let people get a feel for various systems. That fell through, would have been cool if it had worked out.

 

[ljstack]

Yes, this can be an issue, however you do have options depending upon who you’re getting your goggles from. Some dealers carry several products, or you can visit trade shows where all dealers are present, or you can set up a visit to our factory where we will try our very best to convince you that you really don’t need to look any further than Photonis products! Seriously, all we’re saying is that if you’re comfortable with your night vision selection then that’s all you need to worry about.

 

[matman1]

Do you know when/who we will be able to order 5g tubes from. I would really want to get my hands on just the inverted tube alone.

Also will be there a glass output housing coming to the US market for the 5g tubes?

 

[ljstack]

Do you know when/who we will be able to order 5g tubes from. I would really want to get my hands on just the inverted tube alone.

Also will be there a glass output housing coming to the US market for the 5g tubes?

 

[ljstack]

Those tubes will not be available until officially launched sometime next year, probably after the summer. A glass output housing, unrelated to those tubes, is planned to be demonstrated at Shot Show 2024 in January.

 

[matman1]

Those tubes will not be available until officially launched sometime next year, probably after the summer. A glass output housing, unrelated to those tubes, is planned to be demonstrated at Shot Show 2024 in January.

Great! I forgot to ask will be there increased gain/spectral senstivity on these tubes vs 4G? Also any chance of green tubes still?

 

[ljstack]

Great! I forgot to ask will be there increased gain/spectral senstivity on these tubes vs 4G? Also any chance of green tubes still?

Yes, there will be increased Gain, spectral sensitivity will remain the same, green phosphor will be available, and more importantly our industry leading contrast will remain.

 

[ljstack]

The INTENS replacement is the 4G tube. The current line of Photonis tubes for the commercial market is on our website at www.photonisdefense.com. Basically, ECHO tubes are commercial line tubes with MILSPEC performance that don't meet the specifications for our 4G tubes for one reason or another. It could be spots in one of the critical zones, or any of the other parameters that define our 4G line. You won't go wrong with an ECHO tube and a quick search of the internet will showcase performance. ECHO tubes are available now. Our 4G tubes are MILSPEC that meet the requirements of the US Army and our own specifications, they are also available now. Our 18mm Ultimate tube is a very specialized tube. The Ultimate tube is a thin tube which we designed for the special operations community specifically to be mated to a CMOS sensor for digital night vision. I'll attach a photo (an older photo as it shows the INTENS tube). In this photo you will see a18mm thin tube, a 16mm tube, an 18mm 4G hybrid which is used in our PD-PRO-Q, and an industry standard INTENS 18mm tube.

 

[matman1]

Yes, there will be increased Gain, spectral sensitivity will remain the same, green phosphor will be available, and more importantly our industry leading contrast will remain.

I forgot to ask, will there be a p22 Green phosphor option? As those can hit much higher gains than p43, and this was done for the intens line of tubes

 

[ljstack]

I forgot to ask, will there be a p22 Green phosphor option? As those can hit much higher gains than p43, and this was done for the intens line of tubes

Yes, the Green Phosphor are actually the first ones out of the gate.

 

[JDB55]

Looking to get into a set of binos next year, was looking at the 4gs, following as the 5G sound like there's going to be alot of improvements.

 

[ljstack]

5G’s won’t be out until mid next year at the earliest. ECHOs will be sporadic as well since fall outs will be fewer and fewer. 4Gs at various FOMs will be the norm.

 

[JDB55]

5G’s won’t be out until mid next year at the earliest. ECHOs will be sporadic as well since fall outs will be fewer and fewer. 4Gs at various FOMs will be the norm.

That makes sense. I know you can't give official numbers, but do you expect the 5gs to be "significantly" more expensive then the 4gs? Or more like the echos vs the 4g higher FOM money difference? No problem if you can't mention anything, looking to purchase end of next year.

 

[ljstack]

The short answer is yes, so stay tuned because its a different type of tube, unlike anything else produced to date.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The short answer is yes, so stay tuned because its a different type of tube, unlike anything else produced to date.

Hopefully these units will be a significant step up in capability from current tubes. Exciting prospect for sure.

 

[tangloppen]

Will the 5G be available for civilians?

Since it’s so different from legacy systems, will 5G then only come as a complete unit (housing, specialty lenses to accommodate the extended bandwidth)?

 

[ljstack]

Will the 5G be available for civilians?

Since it’s so different from legacy systems, will 5G then only come as a complete unit (housing, specialty lenses to accommodate the extended bandwidth)?

The short answer is yes.