Pierced primers with new Lapua brass

[jLorenzo]

Bought my first batch of Lapua for my 223 bolt gun with a longer throat. Loaded 24gr of Varget under 77 SMK at like 2.49 coal, should be fine. Saw several pierced primers or just badly cratered primers. I didn't do anything to the brass just loaded it. Im guessing this was my mistake? I don't have a mandrel die yet just FL. I could feel different neck tension when seating bullets, also the shoulder to case head measurement werent all the same. I just wanted to get them fire formed. I checked to see if the new brass chambered in my gun and all the pieces I tried did no problem. Now Im pulling bullets and will run them thorugh my FL die with the decapping pin removed or should I deprime the unfired primers and reuse? I have done that before but it makes me nervous and I wear eye and ear pro when doing so.

Also this bottle of Varget is a few years old and for sure dried out more than a fresh jug. Though I know from experience this gun can handle much higher charge than that. Some of my go to loads are 24.5 or 8208 XBR with 75s, 25.0 of N140 with 80gr stuff, Ive gone past 24gr of Varget with 88s and not seen pressure. These are on the lower end of each node and I didnt see pressure until higher charges. This was with LC and Win brass, I know Lapua has less case capacity. Still I thought I would be fine with 24gr of Varget under 77s, thats a known gas gun load and I'm loading the rounds way longer than 2.25.

 

[Batemanb12]

Is your firing pin brushed for small primers?

 

[6.5SH]

What primers?

 

[John Glidewell]

Need more info. Rifle action, primers being used and is the action / firing pin bushed?

 

[jLorenzo]

Tikka t3x, CCI 400s, as far as I know its a factory firing pin. It was built by a smith though. Would I be able to tell visually if it is bushed? As I said I never had any problems before switching to the Lapua and regulary shoot hotter loads than 24gr of Varget under 77s.
They shot very well though. This is a 26" Bartlein M24 profile. 7.5 twist.
It was 80 degrees, also wondering if I had some solvent or something in the chamber. Not likely because I clean this gun very carefully after each range session although its possible I missed mopping out the chamber.

 

[John Glidewell]

CCI 400s are very soft. Try BR4s or Federal match 205m or CCI 450s. Harder cups. You can also have the firing pin bushed. You can also check protrusion, not sure of or how to set that on a Tikka but if the protrusion is long it can cause issues. I set mine to .040 to .050 of firing pin protrusion.

 

[Taylorbok]

I've heard of long firing pin protrusion causing this on tikka actions before.

 

[jLorenzo]

Ive been using CCI 41s but also 400s. I was under the impression that all CCI primers where on the harder side including the 400s and that the Federal primers were the softer ones. Thats just what I remember reading more than once.

 

[jLorenzo]

I've heard of long firing pin protrusion causing this on tikka actions before.

Why would I only have problems now though? As I said I have shot hundreds of rounds of hotter loads with the same primers and no issue. To me the only new variable is the Lapua, possibly the old dry Varget and hot temp. Some combo of those three are giving me my issues I think but I don't know. Ill be pulling the bullets, sizing and recharging. I will update once I try again. I got an average velocity of 2881, 80 degrees, 5000' altitude.

 

[John Glidewell]

Ive been using CCI 41s but also 400s. I was under the impression that all CCI primers where on the harder side including the 400s and that the Federal primers were the softer ones. Thats just what I remember reading more than once.

CCI 400s are some of the softest cups. 41s, 450s, BRs and federal match are all harder cups. 41s are specifically designed to prevent slamfires in semi autos, so they are harder. Lapua brass has tighter primer pockets and lower case capacity which will increase internal pressures. The issues are as stated above, and could be a warm load too. Do not compare loads fired from other brass, case capacity is a real thing. This is common in factory rifles with larger firing pin holes / pins (slop) and long firing pin protrusion.

 

[spife7980]

You’re loading really hot in addition to a thin material primer.

 

[John Glidewell]

You’re loading really hot in addition to a thin material primer.

Yeah, I was not sure but 24-25 for a 223 seemed a bit warm to me, lol

 

[Tempest 455]

Ditto 400's are a problem for hot loads.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Need more info. Rifle action, primers being used and is the action / firing pin bushed?

Why would he need the firing pin bushed on a 223? I can see on a cartridge that normally uses L/R primers and you're using S/R primers.

Like others have said. CCI 400's have a thinner cup (.020") as opposed to CCI 41's, 450's, BR -4's, Remington 7 1/2's and Federal AR primers (.025").

 

[John Glidewell]

Why would he need the firing pin bushed on a 223? I can see on a cartridge that normally uses L/R primers and you're using S/R primers.

Like others have said. CCI 400's have a thinner cup (.020") as opposed to CCI 41's, 450's, BR -4's, Remington 7 1/2's and Federal AR primers (.025").

I did not say he needed to bush it. I asked if it was. Sloppy firing pin holes and longer protrusion are both issues with many factory rifles. Just some things to consider.

 

[tomme boy]

400 primers are not meant for 223,556 loads. They are safe up to 45K psi. They are meant for 22 hornet and 30 carbine. Not 223. But everyone uses them and says look! They are OK. CCI used to have this in their description. But they removed it about 10 years ago.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I've never read / heard that on the CCI 400's. I have Speer manuals going back 5 decades where their reloading data had used CCI 400's for 222,223 and 222 Magnum The only time they recommended the 450's was when using Ball powder.

Remington 6 1/2's did have this in a description. The 6 1/2's were not recommended for higher pressured cartridges. The Remington 7 1/2's were recommended for those cartridges.

 

[918v]

Ive been using CCI 41s but also 400s. I was under the impression that all CCI primers where on the harder side including the 400s and that the Federal primers were the softer ones. Thats just what I remember reading more than once.

No. 400 is like their 550 small pistol magnum.

 

[Tempest 455]

I don't need a manual to tell me if something works or not. A 400 is "probably fine" with most moderate 55g loads. When you start loading .223 80g projectiles "hot" for longer range matches or SRP .308 loads with 200g Berger's for FTR, they don't work.

 

[cruze5]

You’re loading really hot in addition to a thin material primer.

reloading manuals are over rated :

or even reloading websites

 

[jLorenzo]

I did not know this about the 400s. Never had problems with them in my gas gun loading 24gr of varget with 77s at mag length.

I pulled the bullets, decapped and sized, dropped down to 23.5gr.

Holy shit I forgot how much Varget sucks to work with. I need to find a better way to charge Varget. Ive heard the Lee powder measure actually throws stick powder pretty well for some reason. Looking into a manual powder thrower anyway for certain stuff.

To anyone reading about loading new brass I would highly recommend champfering the inside of the case mouth, bullets seat way smoother.
I knew this was going to be a pain in the ass trying new brass. I knew I should've champfered the case mouths.

I also seem to get inconsistent shoulder bump with this brass. I deprimed a fired piece, zeroed the calipers/comparator on it and would check each piece after sizing. I was getting .002-.003" difference. I guess if the brass starts out at different shoulder lengths it will still come out different each piece.

Also I may have actually been kissing the lands some, I haven't shot many 77s in this gun yet. Their ogive doesn't allow for a longer COAL like the VLD stuff does.

Also I have shot much hotter loads with the CCI 400s in this gun without issue. Yes they get flatter sooner than the CCI 41s but this is the first time Ive had a pierced primer ever. I don't think this is primer related. They handled 24.5gr of 8208 XBR and a 75gr ELD no problem (3044 fps) and 80.5gr Bergers with 25.0gr of N140 (also close to 3000 fps).

Well see how it goes next range trip.

 

[spife7980]

It’s totally primer related in addition to loading pretty gawt damn hot regardless of how nothot you claim it is.

 

[DellaDog]

loading pretty gawt damn hot

24.0 gr. Varget and 77SMK is a *very* common load for 223.

 

[spife7980]

24.0 gr. Varget and 77SMK is a *very* common load for 223.

That doesn’t mean it’s not a hot load. As evidenced by piercing primers even if they are the thin version.

 

[Tempest 455]

I run more Varget than that with 80g in SR.

 

[KYAggie]

Lapua brass has tighter primer pockets and lower case capacity which will increase internal pressures.

It’s likely a combination of the above plus the softer primers. Do you have a chronograph? I highly suggest getting one if you don’t have one.

 

[huntnh]

I run 24.4 try seating the bullet a little deeper

 

[MarshallDodge]

Lapua brass is on the thicker side. Did you measure velocities to see if there is a pressure increase?

For factory actions, I turn down the load about 5% because of the firing pins. In an AR, or an action with a small firing pin, you can get away with a little more.

 

[memilanuk]

In an AR, or an action with a small firing pin, you can get away with a little more.

Okay... I'll bite. I get why bushed and/or small firing pins tend to circumvent the problems with pierced primers. Why the AR? Seems like those would be the epitomy of sloppy fit between mass produced parts, and more susceptible - not less - to issues with the primers. Granted, a lot (most?) people tend to go with primers with thicker or harder cups due to the floating firing pin... which should also give a little forgiveness for hot loads... but you make it sound like there's a mechanical reason involving the bolt assembly itself?

 

[MarshallDodge]

Okay... I'll bite. I get why bushed and/or small firing pins tend to circumvent the problems with pierced primers. Why the AR? Seems like those would be the epitomy of sloppy fit between mass produced parts, and more susceptible - not less - to issues with the primers. Granted, a lot (most?) people tend to go with primers with thicker or harder cups due to the floating firing pin... which should also give a little forgiveness for hot loads... but you make it sound like there's a mechanical reason involving the bolt assembly itself?

The AR has a small firing pin.

 

[memilanuk]

The AR has a small firing pin.

With a sloppy as $hit fit in a big hole. I think the harder/thicker primers do more to resist piercing than just a magic 'small firing pin'.

 

[MarshallDodge]

With a sloppy as $hit fit in a big hole. I think the harder/thicker primers do more to resist piercing than just a magic 'small firing pin'.

All I can tell you is that I have never had issues with primers "cratering" in my AR but my Remington 700 in 223 will do it with a warm load. I dont think it has anything to do with fit. My theory is that large firing pin does more to stretch the primer cup metal as it strikes. The metal is much thinner in that area and wants to flow back into the firing pin hole.

I agree that a primer with a thicker cup will help the situation.

 

[Dai Bando]

 

[Cascade Hemi]

All I can tell you is that I have never had issues with primers "cratering" in my AR but my Remington 700 in 223 will do it with a warm load. I dont think it has anything to do with fit. My theory is that large firing pin does more to stretch the primer cup metal as it strikes. The metal is much thinner in that area and wants to flow back into the firing pin hole.

I agree that a primer with a thicker cup will help the situation.

JP Enterprises disagrees with you.

 

[MarshallDodge]

JP Enterprises disagrees with you.

I love the internet.

Which part?

Primer cup thickness?

Size of the hole?

Size of the pin?

Primer cup metal stretching?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I love the internet.

Which part?

Primer cup thickness?

Size of the hole?

Size of the pin?

Primer cup metal stretching?

Yes.