Pipe dream or possible? Any legal analyses?

[sirhrmechanic]

So lots of talk last few days after the Heritage foundation discovered that the only document Biden signed as president was the one where he quit the race.

Every single other bill and executive order was signed with an auto pen.

As folks are saying, whoever controlled the auto pen controlled the presidency And people are coming forward to say that Biden didn’t remember signing things even days after they were signed.

So the chatter is all about whether auto pen signing of bills is actually legal. Or whether Biden‘s entire history of executive orders and signing legislation is vacated.

I suspect it’s a Supreme Court question. Or is it? What’s the precedent? What’s the law? If it says the president has to sign bills for them to become law. If the president doesn’t sign it then how can an order or piece of legislation be valid?

Somehow, I think overturning an entire presidency might get a little bit weird constitutionally. Then again that’s what the constitution is for!!

Does an auto pen controlled by someone who is not the president suffice for executive orders, pardons and Bills?

Is there a precedent? For example, when Woodrow Wilson was president following his stroke, his wife pretty much ran the presidency. Does that constitute a precedent that would allow Jill or some staffer to use the auto pen?

Love to know what our legal minds think!!

Sirhr

 

[Blue Sky Country]

The entire Biden "presidency" needs to be invalidated. Those 4 years brought nothing to us but public embarrassment, along with the "winter of death" of those who were coerced and conned to get the lethal mRNA shots. The only silver lining from that saga is that it displayed the lengths of perversion to which the left would go. Pride flags on federal buildings including the Capitol and the White House lawn. Drag groomer clowns IN the White House. Freaks like that luggage thief given elite security clearances to run the nation's most sensitive and protected infrastructures. Etc.

The latest autopen revelation is just the icing on the cake and will probably give an impetus for our LEGIT administration right now to invalidate a lot of the bullshit EOs and bills that Biden supposedly signed. What we need to be doing currently, at all available time, is to uncover AS MUCH of the sleaze that happened from 2020-2024 as we possibly can so as to make it as difficult for the left to gain any future leadership roles as possible, if not completely disband the treasonous Democrat Party. To have a valid party in existence that works AGAINST every interest of America and Americans is utterly ludicrous. The USA is also a culture of innovation, and that means we have full right to copy and incorporate the ideas of other successful nations like China while filtering out the bad aspects like totalitarianism. DOGE was partly inspired by the Ming Dynasty's Ministry of Government Efficiency, where ministry bureaucrats carried out audits of all provincial magistrates and sheriffs to make sure they are not misusing funds from the Imperial coffers. The current Chinese Communist Party is totalitarian on a lot of aspects but they are at core a nationalist right wing entity seeking to hold on to China's presence at the world stage. In July of 2023, alarmed by the amount of commercials and TV scenes showing effeminate men (niang niang qiang), the CCP Ministry of Culture outlawed any depictions of 'sissiness' in media productions across all spheres and established a hotline where citizens can phone or email in violations of such if they see it. And even though China's 1997 defacto civilian gun ban has not been reversed in any fashion currently, the Ministry of Education and Sports placed marksmanship back into all school and grade levels as a national sport. Students are required to attend at least one physical education semester throughout grade school where they would be instructed on the recurve bow, crossbow, and the QBZ-95/181 rifles and pass a basic shooting proficiency and weapon maintenance test. All of these things can be incorporated and absorbed here as well to ensure that we the USA will also maintain our national heritage and status for the centuries to come.

 

[Franko]

I don't work in this part of the house but my feeling is that the Supreme Court won't touch this without there being clear evidence of incapacity on the part of President Biden and the folks who know the truth aren't going to be cooperative because it puts them in harms way. This is also new and undiscovered legal territory which makes everybody nervous because its going to be messy and involved all kinds of political and constitutional questions. Our entire political and legal establishment wants this to go away because for at least a few years the United States didn't have a President and instead we were ruled by some kind of cabal.

I'm not sure that President Trump would even want to go down this road because it would suck up the resources that are likely needed to do all the things that Mr. Trump wants to accomplish in the next 4 years. It also could end up weakening the Executive branch which he likely doesn't want as well. So, I expect that this will be helped to quickly be "forgotten" because nobody who matters wants this to be brought into the light.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

I'd think the use of an auto pen would be fine if controlled by the signer, but if otherwise, I'd think that is no bueno.

My profession is in/around Government contracting and anyone who signs documents has to have a delegation of authority letter which authorizes them to sign and legally bind the entity they are signing on behalf of. You can have multiple levels of delegation but I can't imagine the POTUS can delegate his authority legally if what is being signed has to be signed by the POTUS. For example, ITAR documents have to be signed by my company's Empowered Official, of which there is only one for us and it's not me, so I can't sign those documents even though I have authority to commit/bind the company legally. Only the owner of our company can sign those docs with the Dept of State/DDTC. There has to be a law that says ONLY the President can sign x, y, or z. Anything signed by someone else in those cases should be thrown out, but I'd be willing to bet the courts would try to claim intent and Biden was not opposed to what his name was signed to so it's all good.

Those are my thoughts. I'm not a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so do with that info what you will.

 

[isofahunter]

Nothing is going to happen. Have you read the JFK or JE file yet???

 

[SilentStalkr]

ASGH

 

[SilentStalkr]

Nothing is going to happen. Have you read the JFK or JE file yet???

No! Fill me in on the Cliff notes.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

So, this 'autopen' is tantamount to a 'photocopier', right?

Sounds legit. Actually, sounds like the Mint.

 

[isofahunter]

No! Fill me in on the Cliff notes.

See below.
" "

 

[packratt]

I predice the person in control of the pen will commit suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head multiple times and then drawing and quartering themselves.

I don't have a problem if Joe says I don't feel like signing this stack of 900 pardons and 50 executive orders Fred break out the autopsy. I do have a problem if Georgina tells Fred tells Fred to do it and Joe doesn't know about it.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I don't work in this part of the house but my feeling is that the Supreme Court won't touch this without there being clear evidence of incapacity on the part of President Biden and the folks who know the truth aren't going to be cooperative because it puts them in harms way. This is also new and undiscovered legal territory which makes everybody nervous because its going to be messy and involved all kinds of political and constitutional questions. Our entire political and legal establishment wants this to go away because for at least a few years the United States didn't have a President and instead we were ruled by some kind of cabal.

I'm not sure that President Trump would even want to go down this road because it would suck up the resources that are likely needed to do all the things that Mr. Trump wants to accomplish in the next 4 years. It also could end up weakening the Executive branch which he likely doesn't want as well. So, I expect that this will be helped to quickly be "forgotten" because nobody who matters wants this to be brought into the light.

Some of that is definitely saying the quiet part out loud! Well-said.

I am wondering… the “cabal” must have known that the autopen was shaky ground… because the one document they needed for their Kamala Coup…. They made him hand sign. No auto pen to remove a President from the ticket.

Seems to me that represents a smoking gun… when you know you have to get a real signature for your new candidate to complete the coup.

But as you say… it’s a Pandoras Box..

Then Again, if left to stand, does the next Cabal take it further and make it even more egregious? If laws were broken and Constitutional lines were crossed, are we obligated as a nation to “not” brush it off?

Lots of folks saying “This is worse than Watergate” over the decades. And IMHO watergate was a tempest in a teapot… but the Left wanted Nixon gone….

This, on the other hand, is a crisis, potentially at a Constitutional level, that makes Watergate look like Jaywalking.

Thanks for the good analysis!

Sirhr

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

If you have to have a legal document notarized when you sign it. Then it should be that the President hand sign all documents. Especially if they are treated as a legal document.
I'm sure that there's some legal precedent for the signing of legal documents. There's laws for everything else you do.

 

[BytorJr]

Wait, wasn't PedoCucumber not competent to give a deposition or something...couldn't do the entire interview. To me, at that point, he should have been booted (granted, we'd have had camel-duh as potus, but would it have been different with her...both took orders from somebody else). That alone tells me he wasn't competent and SCOTUS should hear the case.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I predice the person in control of the pen will commit suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head multiple times and then drawing and quartering themselves.

I don't have a problem if Joe says I don't feel like signing this stack of 900 pardons and 50 executive orders Fred break out the autopsy. I do have a problem if Georgina tells Fred tells Fred to do it and Joe doesn't know about it.

Or was pardoned and has a USSS detail for life. And is named Jill.

 

[Fig]

If you are “non compos mentis”, not in control of your faculties, then you cannot sign a legal document, by law, period. There’s no exception for a President.

Woodrow Wilson was also the most disastrous and evil man to ever hold the office, and we are still completely fucked up and tax slaves because he was such a gigantic, totalitarian cunt even before he stroked out and his commie wife covered for him. Biden is only the second worst President and more like Martin Van Buren, who was just there.

We knew that Obama and his people were running shit from the beginning of his basement campaign. Nothing surprises me from the anti-America. Communist donkeys.

 

[Holliday]

Fruits of a banana republic.

 

[Franko]

Some of that is definitely saying the quiet part out loud! Well-said.

I am wondering… the “cabal” must have known that the autopen was shaky ground… because the one document they needed for their Kamala Coup…. They made him hand sign. No auto pen to remove a President from the ticket.

Seems to me that represents a smoking gun… when you know you have to get a real signature for your new candidate to complete the coup.

But as you say… it’s a Pandoras Box..

Then Again, if left to stand, does the next Cabal take it further and make it even more egregious? If laws were broken and Constitutional lines were crossed, are we obligated as a nation to “not” brush it off?

Lots of folks saying “This is worse than Watergate” over the decades. And IMHO watergate was a tempest in a teapot… but the Left wanted Nixon gone….

This, on the other hand, is a crisis, potentially at a Constitutional level, that makes Watergate look like Jaywalking.

Thanks for the good analysis!

Sirhr

This was certainly a Constitutional crisis; everything that President Biden did while in his diminished state is invalid. Laws, Executive Orders, Budgets, Presidential Acts, judicial appointments, anything and everything. Imagine the chaos it would cause if all those things no longer existed. The Cabal is safe because nobody anywhere within our government is willing to open this Pandora's Box.

In an ideal world there would be a complete investigation, full disclosure to voters, punishment for the wrongdoers, and real meaningful changes made so this could not happen again. However, as the swamp isn't interested in punishing itself, we are going to be out of luck. Best we can hope for is to be the crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving table telling the youngsters about this and telling them to always distrust the government...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

This was certainly a Constitutional crisis; everything that President Biden did while in his diminished state is invalid. Laws, Executive Orders, Budgets, Presidential Acts, judicial appointments, anything and everything. Imagine the chaos it would cause if all those things no longer existed. The Cabal is safe because nobody anywhere within our government is willing to open this Pandora's Box.

In an ideal world there would be a complete investigation, full disclosure to voters, punishment for the wrongdoers, and real meaningful changes made so this could not happen again. However, as the swamp isn't interested in punishing itself, we are going to be out of luck. Best we can hope for is to be the crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving table telling the youngsters about this and telling them to always distrust the government...

Not sure the path of “undoing it all” is the worst ever.

Dozens of idiot judges removed and slots for replacement. Billions clawed back in spending.

Pardons revoked. Murderers and terrorists back on the wanted list and back in prison.

Money that was spent… well it was spent. And things that we need or are worthwhile can be re-authorized. With a new presidential signature.

The more I think about, it the more I think what a tremendous opportunity it is. Because it could rip four years out of swamp bullshit, and do it all legally and constitutionally.

Sure would be nice to be able to void Hunter Biden’s pardon… and how about some of them others?

Sirhr

 

[34vld]

TLDR. But unless money is spent to investigate and try to prosecute, nothing will come of this. As good as it may sound.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

My question is:

If they can just prove that the extra 15+ million votes mere bogus, can they just eliminate everything he did by himself? That seems like the easiest way to erase him from the record. If he never had the votes, he was never a legitimate president..

 

[NoDopes]

Would it be easier to just nuke DC from orbit?

 

[sloporsche]

Would it be easier to just nuke DC from orbit?

you can't make that decision you are just a ..............oh wait your are a general [2 stars] .......nuke um rico lol

 

[WTF-2-EDC]

My question is:

If they can just prove that the extra 15+ million votes mere bogus, can they just eliminate everything he did by himself? That seems like the easiest way to erase him from the record. If he never had the votes, he was never a legitimate president..

 

[armorpl8chikn]

My legal analysis?
There is no longer a functioning legal system....period, end of story.
There is no Republic beyond a yellow one that can be peeled.
The People are not awake, they are in that twilight between dream state and waking, and are being held there by a steady infusion of hopium.
The Mack Daddy O was asked about his third term, and he FUCKING TOLD EVERYONE how he would do it, and what it would look like.
Now we find the fucking pen with Big Mike's bitch's fingerprints on it and damn near empty of ink.
And we find out an auto pen was used on everything Biden signed except his resignation.
And....we scratch our heads?
If there was a justice system or a Republic, hell any nation at all, people would be stretchimg hemp by the fucking hundreds.

Before anything changes on our trajectory, there will be blood. There will be blood at the end of the current trajectory as well.

To the rabid Trump is my savior patriots:
I am not bashing Trump, so fuck right off. He is doing all he can do...it won't be enough.

 

[WTF-2-EDC]

If they can confirm Biden truly DID NOT KNOW then all of his digitally signed orders can be successfully argued and overturned. A big piece of the puzzle is the court's determination that Biden was not competent to stand trial. If they can prove that even one digital signature could not have been made by Biden (cuz he was elsewhere) then the entire ball of yarn can legally be unraveled. A lot of ifs.

 

[Franko]

Not sure the path of “undoing it all” is the worst ever.

Dozens of idiot judges removed and slots for replacement. Billions clawed back in spending.

Pardons revoked. Murderers and terrorists back on the wanted list and back in prison.

Money that was spent… well it was spent. And things that we need or are worthwhile can be re-authorized. With a new presidential signature.

The more I think about, it the more I think what a tremendous opportunity it is. Because it could rip four years out of swamp bullshit, and do it all legally and constitutionally.

Sure would be nice to be able to void Hunter Biden’s pardon… and how about some of them others?

Sirhr

Uncovering and fixing the wrongs of the Biden years would be a very good thing. I just don't think it is going to happen because the system is rotten to the core and thus, incapable of fixing itself.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

^^^ You are, alas, probably right.

 

[Franko]

^^^ You are, alas, probably right.

I very much wish to be proven wrong.

 

[gigamortis]

The most efficient way to make previous executive orders null and void is for Trump to issue his own executive orders to unwind them.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

The most efficient way to make previous executive orders null and void is for Trump to issue his own executive orders to unwind them.

I’m thinking more along the lines of removing illegally appointed judges and clawing back a couple of trillion dollars that were dumped to leftist organizations.

But probably a moot point.

Sirhr

 

[LeftyJason]

My question is:

If they can just prove that the extra 15+ million votes mere bogus, can they just eliminate everything he did by himself? That seems like the easiest way to erase him from the record. If he never had the votes, he was never a legitimate president..

Problem with that is the electoral college said he was the president.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Problem with that is the electoral college said he was the president.

But if it can be proven that they were deceived by a dishonest election, does it matter? I don't know the answer, and I doubt anyone does.

 

[Ronws]

The entire Biden "presidency" needs to be invalidated. Those 4 years brought nothing to us but public embarrassment, along with the "winter of death" of those who were coerced and conned to get the lethal mRNA shots. The only silver lining from that saga is that it displayed the lengths of perversion to which the left would go. Pride flags on federal buildings including the Capitol and the White House lawn. Drag groomer clowns IN the White House. Freaks like that luggage thief given elite security clearances to run the nation's most sensitive and protected infrastructures. Etc.

The latest autopen revelation is just the icing on the cake and will probably give an impetus for our LEGIT administration right now to invalidate a lot of the bullshit EOs and bills that Biden supposedly signed. What we need to be doing currently, at all available time, is to uncover AS MUCH of the sleaze that happened from 2020-2024 as we possibly can so as to make it as difficult for the left to gain any future leadership roles as possible, if not completely disband the treasonous Democrat Party. To have a valid party in existence that works AGAINST every interest of America and Americans is utterly ludicrous. The USA is also a culture of innovation, and that means we have full right to copy and incorporate the ideas of other successful nations like China while filtering out the bad aspects like totalitarianism. DOGE was partly inspired by the Ming Dynasty's Ministry of Government Efficiency, where ministry bureaucrats carried out audits of all provincial magistrates and sheriffs to make sure they are not misusing funds from the Imperial coffers. The current Chinese Communist Party is totalitarian on a lot of aspects but they are at core a nationalist right wing entity seeking to hold on to China's presence at the world stage. In July of 2023, alarmed by the amount of commercials and TV scenes showing effeminate men (niang niang qiang), the CCP Ministry of Culture outlawed any depictions of 'sissiness' in media productions across all spheres and established a hotline where citizens can phone or email in violations of such if they see it. And even though China's 1997 defacto civilian gun ban has not been reversed in any fashion currently, the Ministry of Education and Sports placed marksmanship back into all school and grade levels as a national sport. Students are required to attend at least one physical education semester throughout grade school where they would be instructed on the recurve bow, crossbow, and the QBZ-95/181 rifles and pass a basic shooting proficiency and weapon maintenance test. All of these things can be incorporated and absorbed here as well to ensure that we the USA will also maintain our national heritage and status for the centuries to come.

Yes. Go scorched earth. Not only because it needs to be rectified or eliminated but also because, that is what the DNC and other commies are going to do.

That is what they have been doing 24/7/365. Really since the early 20th century but more openly since 2016. They took off the mask. You don't need to the special glasses to see "They Live." They are brazen, right in front of you.

(sidetrack, Rowdy's line was an ad lib, it was not scripted. "I am here to chew bubblegum and kick ass! And I am all out of bubblegum.")

Anyway, no stopping, no retreat, no surrender. Being reasonable has gotten us nothing but a dry hard one up the keister without the KY.

 

[doubloon]

So, this 'autopen' is tantamount to a 'photocopier', right?

Sorta, not really. Like an engraving tool that traces a pattern.

The autopen has been used for decades by many presidents.

The use of the autopen itself it's the deal. It's whether or not Biden knew what was being signed in his name.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Sorta, not really. Like an engraving tool that traces a pattern.

The autopen has been used for decades by many presidents.

The use of the autopen itself it's the deal. It's whether or not Biden knew what was being signed in his name.

And I believe the auto pen is used for fundraisers and correspondence and letters to Girl Scout troops and things like that.

I believe that for actual Bills, legislation, appointments and the like, an actual signature must be placed on the document by the president.

That’s why there are signing ceremonies and pens given away, etc.

Auto pens are for the thousands of other things that presidents put their names on. That said I could be wrong.

 

[brianf]

Truthfully as with all the previous administration disasters..who cares

No one is going to jail and no on the left will vote differently. most of the crimes if any aren’t “jail” time for first time offenders anyway. Maybe annoying and theoretically guilty but nothing will come of it.

Best course of action is to totally ignore the last 4 years and not say their names ever again.

Making them irrelevant is the worst punishment because it reduces their exposure as well as their funding. Let them fade away and they’ll have to find new leaders and regime change.

 

[Marinevet1]

If they can confirm Biden truly DID NOT KNOW then all of his digitally signed orders can be successfully argued and overturned. A big piece of the puzzle is the court's determination that Biden was not competent to stand trial. If they can prove that even one digital signature could not have been made by Biden (cuz he was elsewhere) then the entire ball of yarn can legally be unraveled. A lot of ifs.

He was found incompetent to stand trial...........

 

[doubloon]

I believe that for actual Bills, legislation, appointments and the like, an actual signature must be placed on the document by the president.

Not always ... let me dig around

https://www.shapell.org/behind-the-scenes/the-robot-pen/

In 2005, George W. Bush was the first president to enquire with the Department of Justice if it was constitutional for the president to sign a bill using the autopen. Though he received the dispensation, he didn’t actually use the autopen

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/president-obamas-autopen-when-is-an-autograph-not-an-autograph-574822/

Barack Obama was the first American President to use the autopen to sign a bill into law

 

[OldSalty2]

I don't work in this part of the house but my feeling is that the Supreme Court won't touch this without there being clear evidence of incapacity on the part of President Biden and the folks who know the truth aren't going to be cooperative because it puts them in harms way. This is also new and undiscovered legal territory which makes everybody nervous because its going to be messy and involved all kinds of political and constitutional questions. Our entire political and legal establishment wants this to go away because for at least a few years the United States didn't have a President and instead we were ruled by some kind of cabal.

I'm not sure that President Trump would even want to go down this road because it would suck up the resources that are likely needed to do all the things that Mr. Trump wants to accomplish in the next 4 years. It also could end up weakening the Executive branch which he likely doesn't want as well. So, I expect that this will be helped to quickly be "forgotten" because nobody who matters wants this to be brought into the light.

The classified docs investigation was not pursued because Biden was found mentally incapable of remembering etc. Is that evidence?

 

[Franko]

The classified docs investigation was not pursued because Biden was found mentally incapable of remembering etc. Is that evidence?

It's "evidence" that would be considered if there was a lawsuit. The problem is that a finding of incompetency would have such a huge impact on our political and legal system that no evidence would be "enough" to declare President Biden incompetent. A finding of incompetency is so disruptive that no court is going to allow it.

Much like the anti-gun judges that always find a way to rule against the Second Amendment no matter what the law or the evidence say...

 

[SilentStalkr]

My question is:

If they can just prove that the extra 15+ million votes mere bogus, can they just eliminate everything he did by himself? That seems like the easiest way to erase him from the record. If he never had the votes, he was never a legitimate president..

Yeah, but the damage has been done.

My legal analysis?
There is no longer a functioning legal system....period, end of story.
There is no Republic beyond a yellow one that can be peeled.
The People are not awake, they are in that twilight between dream state and waking, and are being held there by a steady infusion of hopium.
The Mack Daddy O was asked about his third term, and he FUCKING TOLD EVERYONE how he would do it, and what it would look like.
Now we find the fucking pen with Big Mike's bitch's fingerprints on it and damn near empty of ink.
And we find out an auto pen was used on everything Biden signed except his resignation.
And....we scratch our heads?
If there was a justice system or a Republic, hell any nation at all, people would be stretchimg hemp by the fucking hundreds.

Before anything changes on our trajectory, there will be blood. There will be blood at the end of the current trajectory as well.

To the rabid Trump is my savior patriots:
I am not bashing Trump, so fuck right off. He is doing all he can do...it won't be enough.

This x1000000000000

Uncovering and fixing the wrongs of the Biden years would be a very good thing. I just don't think it is going to happen because the system is rotten to the core and thus, incapable of fixing itself.

Agreed!

I very much wish to be proven wrong.

Same!

Truthfully as with all the previous administration disasters..who cares

No one is going to jail and no on the left will vote differently. most of the crimes if any aren’t “jail” time for first time offenders anyway. Maybe annoying and theoretically guilty but nothing will come of it.

Best course of action is to totally ignore the last 4 years and not say their names ever again.

Making them irrelevant is the worst punishment because it reduces their exposure as well as their funding. Let them fade away and they’ll have to find new leaders and regime change.

Sadly!

This only changes one way. Im just gonna say it. Anyone that thinks otherwise is behind the curve. Half the nation thinks Bidet was legit and the best guy ever. That same group is also saying Trump is basically some tyrannical leader thst is going to end us all for even remotely trying to do the right thing. The country’s moral compass is so fucked up that half the nation sees no wrong with the way things have been. Those same delusional people have zero problem committing violence on a mass scale and then turning that attention to anyone that doesn’t agree with them. We’ve already seen it and the corrupt government protects them. IMO, our proverbial side has been the ones with their heads in the sand. As I’ve said in the past many times over, the country is already gone, it’s just that most fail to see it and it’s freaking scary. I was hoping I’d sleep better at night with Trump at the helm, but I don’t. Sadly, it went out without a whimper and we watched it live and did nothing.

 

[232593]

And I believe the auto pen is used for fundraisers and correspondence and letters to Girl Scout troops and things like that.

I believe that for actual Bills, legislation, appointments and the like, an actual signature must be placed on the document by the president.

That’s why there are signing ceremonies and pens given away, etc.

Auto pens are for the thousands of other things that presidents put their names on. That said I could be wrong.

New avatar.