Easy. The 2 parties that comprise our government are one and the same.
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Pistol brace SBR free registration?
- Thread starter Animal357
- Start date
This is my Eform 4 for one of my suppressors. Never got a "real" copy in the mail like my first 3 stamps. My experience is you get a physical stamp if you do the paper way vs a copy of it using Eform system.
You do not get a stamp for the approved Eform 1's for this brace rule. No pay....no stamp.
Just sell all your pistol brace items. My buyer 'Hunter' said he always complies with federal gun regs
I dont have any monkeys in this circus, but I did see an approved brace stamp paperwork last week and yes it did have a stamp on it. But it was an electronic copy sent from AFzt, not a paper copy.
All the ones I’ve seen posted did not. Only the one’s people actually paid the $200 for did.
My buddy just got his eform1 (pistol brace) approved and back after 55 days. His electronic form has a stamp. 
Here's my question. What happens if someone submits an "amnesty" form 1 and then gets denied for whatever reason? Maybe you made a typo on the form, etc. Happens all the time.
Well now you have voluntarily admitted you have possession of what ATF considers an illegal SBR, and they have denied your ass. I'm sure they'd just let that go, right??? Not a position I'd wanna be in.
Also wouldn't wanna be in the position of a tax "forbearance" situation with an agency that changes positions more than a porn star whore. I can think of all kinds of ways that could go to shit real quick.
Well now you have voluntarily admitted you have possession of what ATF considers an illegal SBR, and they have denied your ass. I'm sure they'd just let that go, right??? Not a position I'd wanna be in.
Also wouldn't wanna be in the position of a tax "forbearance" situation with an agency that changes positions more than a porn star whore. I can think of all kinds of ways that could go to shit real quick.
Simply remove and dispose of the brace.
But, get your dog a plate carrier, just in case…
Is that before or after you admitted in writing to having the illegal sbr so you could save $200?
Also, what about that little note they put on the approved "free" brace form 1s? Something like "approved subject to certain conditions"....yeah, I really like the sound of that.
I'd choose to either make the gun compliant, or do a normal $200 registration.
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The portion whete the stamp would go is marked “tax exempt.” This is not a forebearance, despite some people not knowing the difference and piping up anyway. If you’re worried ATF is going to go “AHA you fell for our clever trap” then you should immediately stop claiming any exemptions from withholding and stop claiming any tax deductions as well, just in case those are just the IRS setting a clever trap that they can reverse at any time.
None of the people claiming its a forebearance and a trap are doing that they, which should be your clue that they’re full of shit.
Per ATF, you already had/have the SBR.
If you submit a Form 1 or 4 with a typo, you should be shopping for shoes with velcro instead of laces instead of a firearm. It’s not that many pages and proofreading your legally binding federal document that you sign as true and accurate at the end is right up there with “chew your food before you swallow it” and “point the muzzle downrange and put the stock against your shoulder, not the other way around.” That said, when I have had an error (dealer wrote their FFL number wrong on a form 4) i got it kicked back for a correction, not a rejection outright.
Lastly, the conditions of approval is listed on the last page of the approved form. They even say as much where it says “Approved With Conditions - See Conditions On Last Page Of Form.” If you go to the last page of the approved form there is one line: “pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F.” Thats the condition under which ATF approved your application for a tax-exempt form 1.
OH THE HUMANITY! These bastards have even stated on the form the reason why this application was approved tax-exempt and why it doesn’t have a stamp! These absolute monsters gave a clear reason immediately clear to any auditor or reviewer! When will these accountants be stopped from their heinous crimes!!!!
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I remember when it was written down that Akins Accelerators and FRTs were legal to own.
Good times
Good times
Let’s not forget that shoe laces were once classified as machine guns
And bumpstocks… And 80% receivers… And pistol braces… And newly-manufactured machine guns… And lightning links… And people were able to bring back machine guns and artillery from other countries as war trophies (because ‘Merica)… And guns didn’t have to have serial numbers because there was no illegal registry…I mean…“Searchable Database for crime prevention”…
Rich Fudds got to have all the fun pre-86, then killed it for everyone else in the future, so their collections would become ridiculously valuable, and prevent future generations from knowing what freedoms really are. It’s almost like all this was slowly planned over the last 100+ years.
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I am not a lawyer. That said, I have listen to several lawyers I consider reputable do an analysis and from that it seems pretty clear that removing the brace puts you back to simply having a pistol. If I were going to keep the brace, I would put it in another location i.e friend's house etc. just to be super safe. I would also pay attention to your optic. If you have a Pistol with a rifle scope on it, I would say that’s problematic. A red dot dot so much.
Yes it always seem dicey with the ATF. That said, are we fighting (legally)or just whining. I think we take the best evidence we can and make a legal stand.
Fear, doublespeak, backtracking, waffling, delaying are all tools the ATF seems to using to keep us law abiding gun owners in check. IF you feel you need to go the ultra safe route, only you can make that decision.
My over arching point is that gun owners whine, cry moan and piss themselves. Then its “when the civil war comes” “ I will not comply” and on and on. Then when it comes time to act (legally) they cry “but I have a job”……
This $200 shiny fishing lure and the obvious legal alternative is such a billboard of what the 2A community really is. A bunch of mealy mouth blow hards. Every day we sell out in small ways while pretending to be part of the (legal) fight. There is so much that we can do and should be doing every freaking day.
If you think fighting (legally) means giving up any of those things, then this is the problem.
If the left is full of “losers” why are we not using our brains and our money. How many of you guys will take a day or week off to go hunting? How many take a day to drive to your capitol and talk to a legislator or sit down and pen a letter?
Will you spend a few bucks more NOT to do business with a company that has stabbed us in the back? Look what the white trash beer community is done the bud light. No one fears, gun owners economically. White trash, Bud Light drinkers, and K-pop girls are feared as an economic demographic WAY more than us. We’re not feared at all ! We’re a laughing-stock.
I maintain there is plenty we could do every single day legally and economically to aid this fight. It is really that simple. Or have we been by the campfire just too long…..
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My Navy buddies did not have a stamp on it. It said "Approved with conditions-See Conditions on the last page of PDF". On the last page it
said " Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F".
said " Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F".
There are tales of this floating around here and there, but there should not be a stamp on a brace form 1. The ones with stamps were either paid for or processed incorrectly, which makes no sense because the brace forms are worked on by a different team. I have yet to actually see a stamp on a form that has the tax exempt box checked.
-Free Brace Stamp via Eform 1?.....there is no stamp on the approval forms, see image. I know this personally.
-Paid $200, form 1 or 4 via paper forms?......you get physical stamp in Box 1, I know this personally, it would go in the green box of my image.
-Paid $200, Eform 1 or 4? you get a copy of the stamp applied to Box 1. I've seen this personally.
-Paid $200, form 1 or 4 via paper forms?......you get physical stamp in Box 1, I know this personally, it would go in the green box of my image.
-Paid $200, Eform 1 or 4? you get a copy of the stamp applied to Box 1. I've seen this personally.
@Budrichard ,
Were you approved with conditions? I have heard most of the "tax exempt" E-Form 1 are being approved this way.
Were you approved with conditions? I have heard most of the "tax exempt" E-Form 1 are being approved this way.
All Eforms that are approved during this bullsh*t amnesty is approved with conditions as shown in my image. What does this mean? It could mean that your SBR approved paperwork is null and void IF 2021R-08F is overturned. So ladies and gentlemen.....don't throw your braces away...keep em close if you already swapped them out for stocks.
I did lots of "googling" and can't find any reputable source that indicates (a) you don't get a stamp, and (b) the approval is revocable. My research shows quite the opposite, as all sources I've seen indicate the process delivers (a) a stamp, and (b) standard approval terms that are no different from their normal processes.
Please do me a favor and share the links you're referencing, so that we can all educate ourselves better.
Interesting language in that "Conditional" approval that is conditioned upon the "Final Rule".
Would love to hear a lawyer assess what that means.
The interesting points are (a) if the rule is struck down, then the approval isn't needed, and ... (b) if the rule is upheld, then the approval is valid. Either way ... I keep shooting ... right?
Would love to hear a lawyer assess what that means.
The interesting points are (a) if the rule is struck down, then the approval isn't needed, and ... (b) if the rule is upheld, then the approval is valid. Either way ... I keep shooting ... right?
Someone just posted a picture of one right above. You are wrong, sack up and accept it. Forbearance forms don’t get a stamp because you didn’t actually pay the $200 tax for it. Normal paid Form 1’s do get a $200 stamp, because you paid the $200 to get it.
Your research is horrendous my friend. Posts 69 and 72 above are my own images of MY approved Eforms for this brace rule. The word "PURSUANT" means "in accordance with (a law or a legal document or resolution". If 2021R-08F is repealed that probably means my approved Eform 1's ARE DEAD and worthless. My paper application of Form 1 for SBR PRIOR to this brace rule (2019) has a physical stamp. I AM educating you.
You are exactly right because those images are mine.
Forbearance forms don’t get a stamp because you didn’t actually pay the $200 tax for it. Normal paid Form 1’s do get a $200 stamp, because you paid the $200 to get it.
Didn't see that ... wasn't on the right page in this forum ... didn't know it had gone to Page-2 ... my apologies.
This is helpful.
Bottom line:
- Approval is conditional
- Condition is the Final Rule
- Stamp is digital not physical
That's helpful.
Sorry, realized I may of sounded like a dick and it was not my intention. Just wanted to clarify the air. Stamp is not digital for Eform 1's done under 2021R-08F because you don't get a stamp (no pay....no stamp).
IF you submit a normal Eform 1 which requires you to pay $200 you do get a copy of the stamp (see my post 52).
Apology accepted ... no harm - no foul. Just seeking to understand.
(That said, you were on the hairy edge of being semi-dick-like.)
Paper Form 1 or Form 4 - Physical stamp
Efile Form 1 or Form 4 - Digital stamp
Efile Form 1 (brance rule) - No stamp at all. "Approved under conditions"
If people who own NFA items don't know this, imagine how many people who don't own or interested in owning any, don't understand...
Efile Form 1 or Form 4 - Digital stamp
Efile Form 1 (brance rule) - No stamp at all. "Approved under conditions"
If people who own NFA items don't know this, imagine how many people who don't own or interested in owning any, don't understand...
I have 7 suppressors and two SBR's ... with the SBR's eFiled and getting the digital stamp.
I had no idea that the amnesty Form 1 was "special". That's actually concerning as I have four amnesty applications in.
Well ... if the rule stands, I'm legal. If the rule is overturned, I'm legal.
So either way ... I stay out of jail. I suppose that's acceptable.
it means 4exactly what it says. Your application for a tax-exempt manufacture of a Short-Barreled Rifle was approved under special conditions, and that conditions the one listed on the final page. On the final page it tells you that the condition is ATF Rule 2021R-08F, the rule that clarified that braced pistols meeting blah blah criteria and owned prior to the issuance of the rule were eligible for tax-exempt registration.
I don't know where everyone is getting the idea that it can be revoked if the rule is overturned. There's no reason that would make sense. Even if the rule was overturned and people wanted to un-SBR their SBR, there's a process for doing that (return it to a non-SBR form and send a letter to ATF notifying them to remove it from the registry).
I know this is the internet and wanton FUD is the way of things, but the rule of thumb here is simple. If you don't know, guessing or making shit up is a dick move.
I get it, english is hard to understand and comprehend for some.
My applications were approved on the condition that is pursuant to the final rule. That's pretty clear on what it means to me but maybe not to you.
Why would a revocation of the rule result in a revocation of the stamp? That's the missing step here, since to my knowledge that's not how any of this works. A Form 1 or Form 4 is not an ongoing thing like a manufacturing license. What would be the impetus for the court to invalidate all the registered SBRs just because the brace rule was overturned?
Does overturning the rule make those SBRs illegal? No.
Does overturning the rule make all SBRs illegal? No.
Did the rule make any change which makes an SBR legal only under the conditions of the rule? No.
There is nothing about the conditional approval note or the rule there that would indicate that the approval is only valid while the rule stands.
Because the only reason a “tax free form1” is being required and approved for these “brace equipped SBRs” is because of the rule change. If the rule is overturned, then the “brace equipped pistols” are not SBRs. No tax was paid, and no “stamp” was issued, so no tax free SBR.
And, it would be the ATF, not the courts that invalidate the tax free form 1. The language of the “conditional approval” sets the stage for the potential invalidation by the ATF.
I submitted several, the applications were approved. They are now SBRs with a stock same as any other SBR. Why would the rule change make it not an SBR anymore?
Why would ATF want *fewer* registered SBRs? What motivation is there for ATF to invalidate the approved Form 1s? Is the entire agency going to have a strroke and suddenly not want guns on the registry?
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OK - so trying to figure this all out it sounds like if you are registering under the Form 1 amnesty pistol brace rule:
1. No tax stamp because you didn't actually pay the tax.
2. Also don't have to engrave lower.
3. Once your application is approved you can ditch the brace and replace it with a stock if you so choose because "an SBR is an SBR".
4. But don't get rid of your brace because if the ATF's rule is struck down we go back to the prior status quo - a pistol with a brace on it is not considered an SBR, but that new stock you just put on makes it an SBR.
1. No tax stamp because you didn't actually pay the tax.
2. Also don't have to engrave lower.
3. Once your application is approved you can ditch the brace and replace it with a stock if you so choose because "an SBR is an SBR".
4. But don't get rid of your brace because if the ATF's rule is struck down we go back to the prior status quo - a pistol with a brace on it is not considered an SBR, but that new stock you just put on makes it an SBR.
If the rule is overturned; why should you, or any other Joe schmoe get free SBR stamps, while the rest of us don't? Because you bought a "pistol"? GTFO with that shit.
The problem is; when it is overturned, all the registrants have openly admitted to making an SBR (or, what the owner thinks is, because you admitted it), and are now on an also illegal gun registry.
You don't see the problem with those things?
You are correct. For those quick to replace braces with stocks.....we better be quicker to swap them back if 2021R-08F gets repealed. At this rate it'll be 2025 since the bill to repeal 2021R-08F is still in the House and has been there for approx 3 months. Still needs to get to the Senate and if it passes that I'm sure Biden will line item veto it which will then go to the Supreme Court.
I’m quite confident that, if the rule is invalidated, the ATF will be quite content in sending tax notices to all of those that wish to retain their new SBRs. Or, you can revert the guns back to their pistol contig…
People will always be paranoid about something when it comes to the ATF. If there's one thing I've learned from these threads on the brace issue, it's that no matter what you do, the ATF is kicking in your door and shooting your dog.
Before braces existed, the paranoid were freaking out if you owned an upper with a barrel under 16" the ATF would kick your door down and shoot your dog for having an SBR even if it was just an upper and was separate and apart from any other AR.
Then braces came along that everyone knew was skirting NFA SBR laws, and everyone forgot about the ATF kicking their doors down for < 16" uppers.
Now everyone is paranoid that doing SBR paperwork is going to get the ATF to kick down your door and shoot your dog because you've admitted to owning an SBR illegally.
If you don't do the paperwork and return the gun to a pistol, you still have the same issue of construction that people were paranoid about before the braces existed in that you have a < 16" barreled AR, and you probably own a fixed AR stock even if it's on another gun, and could easily construct a SBR out of it. ATF is kicking your door down and shooting your dog. If you don't have a dog they will make you adopt one so they can shoot it.
If you don't do the paperwork and you bought a braced weapon, there's the paranoia that the ATF will simply find out who bought braced guns with barrels <16" and didn't do form 1's and kick your door in and of course shoot your dog.
Yet somehow these same people think that when the ATF kicks down their door, they (and certainly their dog) are going to be safe once they tell the ATF that they lost all their guns in a boating accident.
Before braces existed, the paranoid were freaking out if you owned an upper with a barrel under 16" the ATF would kick your door down and shoot your dog for having an SBR even if it was just an upper and was separate and apart from any other AR.
Then braces came along that everyone knew was skirting NFA SBR laws, and everyone forgot about the ATF kicking their doors down for < 16" uppers.
Now everyone is paranoid that doing SBR paperwork is going to get the ATF to kick down your door and shoot your dog because you've admitted to owning an SBR illegally.
If you don't do the paperwork and return the gun to a pistol, you still have the same issue of construction that people were paranoid about before the braces existed in that you have a < 16" barreled AR, and you probably own a fixed AR stock even if it's on another gun, and could easily construct a SBR out of it. ATF is kicking your door down and shooting your dog. If you don't have a dog they will make you adopt one so they can shoot it.
If you don't do the paperwork and you bought a braced weapon, there's the paranoia that the ATF will simply find out who bought braced guns with barrels <16" and didn't do form 1's and kick your door in and of course shoot your dog.
Yet somehow these same people think that when the ATF kicks down their door, they (and certainly their dog) are going to be safe once they tell the ATF that they lost all their guns in a boating accident.
Let’s be real. The ATF is a part of the American govt. A govt that is; of the people, by the people, and for the people. It’s not like the ATF has ever changed their interpretation such that unfinished “proto-NFA” item parts ARE NFA items, invalidated approved form1s (with attached “tax stamps”), confiscated “approved” form1 builds, jailed unfinished parts manufacturers, and dragged them through the legal system- ultimately leading to the successful suicide of the accused. Wait, that is EXACTLY what happened with Diversified Machine.
They are not the same as any other SBR.
First- they were registered via an amnesty form1, which does not require a NFA tax payment and does not get a stamp when approved.
Second- The position of the ATF is that the braced pistols were SBRs when you purchased them. A complete SBR must be transferred via a form4, not a form 1. Hmm.
Third- Back to the form1. The form1 is for manufacturing an NFA item. However, the ATF explicitly says that you are NOT the maker. Note that you were not required to mark your receiver with your name and city, state. Hmm.
If the brace rule is overturned all the ATF will need to do is say “Oops, we did it again” and invalidate the amnesty form1s. And, there is precedent from the form1 suppressor builder kits from DM and others.
I’m not saying that the ATF will be coming to kick down doors and shoot dogs. But, I’d expect a few rounds of “The ATF regrets to inform you that your amnesty form1 has been revoked. You may apply for a tax paid SBR via the standard eform1 process. Please return the illegal SBR to the pistol configuration until the form is approved. You may also surrender the rifle at an ATF field office. You may also destroy the rifle. We don’t really apologize for any inconvenience, and are confused as to why you think we might.”
That said, if the rule is walked back, go ahead and get a plate carrier for your dog, just in case.
Excellent post.
And anyone with a few minutes of critical thinking came up with all of those points 4 months ago.
TINSTAAFL is always in effect. And yet, here we are, spoon feeding this on thee Hide
I can actually see a (semi) logical reason for revocation. Let's say the Final Rule was struck down by the Supreme Court and rendered moot. At that point, the "condition" in the conditional approval is triggered, and the ATF revokes all those approvals. That opens back up the steady revenue stream for people (like me) that have, in the past, paid the $200 to SBR a braced pistol in order to rebuild with hard stocks, vertical grips, etc.. If just a small percentage ... say ... 100,000 braced pistol owners did this, that results in $20M (million) in incremental revenue to the ATF. If I was running the ATF, and the Supreme Court shit-canned my precious rule, I'd immediately revoke every single one of those conditional approvals, and just sit back and bankroll the tax stamp fees from whatever percentage re-filed for fee-based SBR status. I'd even go one step further ... every conditionally approved braced pistol owner would immediately receive a note telling them that the benevolent and all-caring ATF wants to make it easy. You don't have to re-apply ... all you have to do is send in your $200 and they'll switch it over from "Conditional" to "Approved". For those saying "Why would the ATF ever revoke the conditional approval?" ... that's why ... it's all about the Benjamins baby. It's EXACTLY what I would do if I was a soul-less gun-hater running the ATF, and the courts shit-canned my precious pistol brace final rule.
Remember when ATF said braces on AR pistols were ok? Remember when they said you could shoulder them too because the intent was still as a pistol? I do.
I’ll also remember these free stamps when ATF renigs again and says “ohh BTW, about those free tax stamps, we weren’t actually allowed to waive a federal tax after all so now you’re all guilty of tax evasion…ooopsies”.
I’ll also remember these free stamps when ATF renigs again and says “ohh BTW, about those free tax stamps, we weren’t actually allowed to waive a federal tax after all so now you’re all guilty of tax evasion…ooopsies”.
