Pistol cartridge info

[Seth W]

I came here to get some more info on reloading. I'm doing this as more of a hobby thing, not to save money or to get specialized loads. I do shoot the calibers I', loading, which are 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 Auto. A lot of this has to do with my possible OCD, and lack of VERY basic reloading info. I have 3 older guys who are pretty experienced at reloading, but no one seems to be able to tell me some simple things. I also have the latest Hornady manual, and those pamphlet books that deal with one caliber only, for 9 & 40. Press is a Rock Chucker Supreme, RCBS dies, RCBS Uniflow, all new.

1. Side track; I re-ordered some .40 Hornady 180gn repackaged bullets from Graf & sons. I've already gone through some of these same bullets from Graf, and this new batch came in very slightly oily, like they've been lubed. I did not notice this with the first batch. Is that ok? It doesn't bother me other than it being a possible perceived problem. It's very slight, it puts only minimal residue on my hands, only enough to notice it.

2. Regarding the above mentioned calibers; is case trimming needed? While none of the cases seem to be over the limit, they vary in length by up to .008" or so. Should one trim them all to the same length as the shortest one?

3. Weighing powder. I started with an RCBS 505 scale. Didn't like it, too vague for me. Bought a Hornady digital GE1500 scale. Much better, but it still varies a little. I'm using a brand new RCBS inflow dispenser. I find my self constantly tweaking it to try and stay on weight. Again, for basic loads, nothing special, how much tolerance is acceptable on powder weight? (Powder is Accurate #2 9 & 40, HS6 45)

4. Another tolerance question; OA cartridge length. What's acceptable? I'm using Brande new RCBS dies, and I seem to be having a hard time keeping the OAL length the same. Varies +-.005 or so. I did toss the garbage lock rings the dies came with and bought those very nice rings in the yellow case from Canada. That seemed to help some. Everyone agree that once a die is set, you should be able to remove it from the press and put it back in with no changes?

5. Case manufacturer differences. This strikes me as odd, but primers go into different makes of cases differently. Some are better than others, and some need 6 hits to flush them up. I can tell by feel at this point wether a primer is going to need more than one go. Normal?

6. Crimping. In general, setting up the dies seems to be a very touchy thing with little feedback. I can't really see a crimp, and at one point, I had them crimped WAY too much, I think. (I took a few rounds apart)Ammo still shot acceptable FPS past a chromo. I have since made all the ammo with no crimp.

Sorry, that's a lot of info. Would appreciate some opinions.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Oh, wow, that's a lot of questions. I'll start to answer them.

1. Are those bullets lead or jacketed? I would wipe the oil residue off.

2. For the cartridges you mentioned you don't need to trim them repeatedly. If they are vastly different lengths I would sort them in groups if you have a lot of them. You should also keep the same brand together.

3. Throwing charges with a powder measure will get you to within +/- 0.3 grains. Most of the time closer than that. If you can throw a powder charge and be within +/- 0.1 grain I would go with it for pistol loads.

4. Check the bullet seating plug that touches the bullet. Does it seem to fit the bullet nose consistently?

5. Sort the brass by brand and then evaluate primer seating difficulties. A few brands of pistol brass are extremely hard to seat primers. Just get rid of those.

6. For the cartridges you mentioned loading, first adjust the seating die without crimping. Then back the seating stem off and adjust the die body to provide a very slight taper crimp.

 

[John?]

@Seth W

@ShtrRdy gave great advice.

Jacketed or plates bullets out to be free of lune when you load.

I use a Redding powder measure to throw charges for small batch stuff. It consistently drops +/- 0.1 grain. That’s good enough for 50 yard work standing on your hind legs. For bulk production my Dillon measure drops +/- 0.2 grains. Also plenty good enough with the fast powders I use. Rifle cartridges require much more consistent powder charges to achieve the accuracy I desire.

Seating depth variation happens. Especially with mixed brass.
- make sure you’re using the proper stem for your projectile type. Round nose vs JHP. Also make sure you’re starting the bullet straight in the case. Take a look at your OAL measurement data and technique too. Lots of places error can creep in.

Primer seating does vary across brand and lot. Mixing headstamps isn’t conducive to precision ammo. Wall thickness, case volume etc. I sort by headstamp to simplify my process.

I wouldn’t bother to trim those calibers unless you have some outside length specifications. Even then I’d just toss the offending cases in the scrap bucket.

I’ve loaded and shot a great deal of 9mm and 45acp over the years and never trimmed a case. 44 mag ammo for handgun hunting I do trim to the same length but that’s really not necessary.

 

[Makinchips208]

Good info already presented.

As far as RCBS unoflow be consistent in how you operate it.
So on the charge if it’s one tap or more, do the same each time. With the same amount of effort also.

The powder can settle with vibration and gradually change charge weight over the first few cycles. So I throw a dozen or so charges into the jug as I’m adjusting for weight.

Just methods for consistency that net me well under 0.2 grain of variation, probably plus or minus 0.1

 

[918v]

RCBS Little Dandy is most accurate but you can’t adjust the powder charge easily. It throws within .2grs

Most people don’t trim pistol cases but those who do enjoy ease of crimp uniformity.

Get a 21st Century Priming Tool. It’s click adjustable for depth and seats the primer correctly the first time.

COAL variance can be controlled by adding another step to seating but it doesn’t affect anything. Most dies seat most bullets close enough. But if you want to be anal then you can get an expander die for a larger caliber and back out the expander plug and use it to finish seating your bullets to the exact same coal.

 

[Seth W]

Yes, These are copper jacketed bullets, and yes, I'm sorting for head stamps. Yes, I'm using the correct seater plug. The 2 styles of bullets I'm using are the most common ones. I do take care when putting the bullets in the cases. I stick in 50 at a time in the loading block and check for straightness. Then press them all. (Dammit, I have 150 greasy bullets on cases ready to be pressed.) I also am only expanding the cases only far enough to get the bullets to snap in. Not really belling them.

 

[biffj]

Your bullets may be the issue with the seating depth. There can be variations in the shape of the nose and the actual contact point on the bullet. All of them are not being made by the same machine and while bullet makers are really good there are still variations from machine to machine especially with pistol bullets.

Belling the case mouth is an important step. While you don't want to over do it you need to insure you go far enough that the bullets aren't damaging the case when seated. Also the bell mouth when done properly will help you with more consistent seating depth. As the others noted, you don't want lots of lube on the bullet. Variations in the amount and type of lube can affect the release of the bullet and because of that the velocity. Consistent velocity makes a huge difference in accuracy. Jacketed bullets don't normally need or want any lube for loading so clean is best. Lead cast with lube grooves is a different case but when run through the luber sizer the excess is normally removed.
Lastly on this subject, precise seating depth is much less important with pistol cartridges as compared to long range high power rifle. Most pistols have a longer leade than rifles so five or ten thousandths won't make much difference.

Some manufacturers of ammo crimp in the primers though it is not obvious. S&B 9mm is crimped and unless you swage the primer pockets you will likely crush a few primers trying to seat them. The crimp can also affect the seating depth. Check your cases before loading. With uncrimped cases consistency in running the press will make a huge difference too. Make sure to seat primers the same way every time. Run the handle to the same point or feel each time to help keep things consistent. Keep in mind that the amount of movement on the handle is far far greater than the movement of the ram. As the others noted there are other tools for priming and most of us find them to be much better than a standard setup on the loading press. Hand priming tools work very well and give you a far better feel.

Practice practice practice will make better ammo and help you learn what is important and what isn't.

Frank

 

[JoshPutman]

Just remember those calibers headspace on the case mouth, so you don't want a lot of crimp.

I use Lee dies, and the seating die is adjusted to just take the bell out of the case mouth, and then I run the loaded rounds through a factory crimp die. Works perfect for me.

 

[AR-180]

Loading quality pistol rounds is very different than rifle. You’re overthinking a lot of it.

Unless you’re trying for Camp Perry or Bianchi Cup type accuracy, you don’t need to sort by headstamps for most pistol work. Even then, there are plenty of tests that prove you can still have very accurate pistol rounds without sorting.

You generally want to seat just deep enough to fit your magazine and to pass the plunk test.

You will never have to trim pistol brass.

 

[Seth W]

What kind of FPS spread is acceptable? My very first loads came back at a 70 FPS spread, IIRC.

 

[John?]

What kind of FPS spread is acceptable? My very first loads came back at a 70 FPS spread, IIRC.

That seems a hit high for low velocity pistol rounds like 45acp. Your variance will likely get smaller as you smooth out your process. Consistency in operating the press and especially the powder measure makes a big difference.

Relax a little. Pay attention to every step of your process and keep good notes.

 

[Seth W]

The ammo was actually 40 S&W.

I fully understand that I'm likely overthinking a lot of this. But just out of curiosity sake....

I just sorted a pile of a couple hundred Winchester only .40 brass. The extremes on case length was .828" - .845". Most fell at .835, and the next biggest group was at .840" I see the Sammi spec is .850 max, -.010. That puts the main part of my group .005 shorter than the min, with some even shorter than that. I would be curious as to what spec the factories try to hit. If I had to guess, they're trying to hit .840, The min, but it varies lower than that, which is better than letting it go over the .850 max...

My understanding of the plunk test is you wast the round to be as long as possible while still letting the leading edge of the case register against the lip in the chamber for head spacing. The longer the round, the less space the bullet will have to jump to the rifling.

So, I'm curious as to how much pressure difference these specs varying will cause. Making the round longer should lower the pressure, and making the rounds all the same length while the case length changes should change the pressure (FPS) up or down. Given the same powder charge.

 

[AR-180]

Even at Camp Perry, the average high master doesn’t test velocity or extreme spread. They’re worried about reliability and accuracy.

If it shoots well, at pistol distances, the usual rifle metrics don’t matter.

 

[John?]

The ammo was actually 40 S&W.

I fully understand that I'm likely overthinking a lot of this. But just out of curiosity sake....

I just sorted a pile of a couple hundred Winchester only .40 brass. The extremes on case length was .828" - .845". Most fell at .835, and the next biggest group was at .840" I see the Sammi spec is .850 max, -.010. That puts the main part of my group .005 shorter than the min, with some even shorter than that. I would be curious as to what spec the factories try to hit. If I had to guess, they're trying to hit .840, The min, but it varies lower than that, which is better than letting it go over the .850 max...

My understanding of the plunk test is you wast the round to be as long as possible while still letting the leading edge of the case register against the lip in the chamber for head spacing. The longer the round, the less space the bullet will have to jump to the rifling.

So, I'm curious as to how much pressure difference these specs varying will cause. Making the round longer should lower the pressure, and making the rounds all the same length while the case length changes should change the pressure (FPS) up or down. Given the same powder charge.

Your reasoning is fine: case volume variation will add some variance to ignition pressures. That said, so long as you’re using publishes data it won’t matter at handgun distances in practical terms.

I use the plunk test mainly to ensure function of the ammunition in a given barrel. Some pistols are notoriously short throated (looking at you CZ) and don’t tolerate some bullet profiles unless they’re seated very deeply. So the plunk test is useful when working up a new load because the favored bullet is temporarily unobtainable.

In theory pistol rounds headspace off the case mouth. In practice most production pistols headspace off the extractor, so case length variance is less relevant, so long as they’re not excessively long for a given chamber.

I’m an old Bullseye shooter. 45 acp and 38 Special in DR. All my match ammunition was and is built with a volumetric powder measure and fast powders; never weighed. The small variance never shows up on target for me even from a Ransom rest. So long as they all land in the X-ring during testing I’ll shoot them in a match.

Load some up. Lock the pistol in a rest and shoot some groups at 50 yards. Chrono if you like. The target doesn’t lie. Your 45 will be easy to get a load that holds x’s. 9mm will be harder; you’ll need a very well made JHP and drive it hard to get x-ring accuracy. There’s a reason no one shoots 40 S&W in Bullseye; it’s hard to get it to hold groups at distance.