Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

[mdesign]

I understand that running a suppressor on a traditional gas system will make your gun run "dirty" but does a piston system really help this problem or do they just get dirty is a different place?

I plan to run suppressed all the time and have been told that a piston design is the way to go because the gun will stay cleaner.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

A piston gun will get just as dirty as a direct gas gun. Simply put the gas that is held up in the suppressor goes back down the bore. This is why the brass that is ejected turns black and your magazines end up covered in black shit.

 

[JSF]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

The reason pistons are better suppressed is because they have a setting on the piston you select for shooting suppressed. You can do the same thing in a DI with the Noveske switchblock.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

Am trying to decide between the Noveske switch block and an Adams Arms piston upper.

If cleanliness is not the deciding factor when running suppressed then maybe I need to factor in the use of other components ie. low mass bolt carrier, plated bolt, chrome bore, etc.

 

[K_4c]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I take ownership of my TBAC 30-BA here in a week.... I have a LWRC M6A3 and a SR-15 E3. I plan on putting these to platforms through the same scrutiny (ie round count) to answer this question. I'm willing to bet that they both get dirty, however I guarantee that the DI gets there first.

The bolt on my LWRC is supperior to my knights (nickle vs phosphate) and cleans up much easier.

both have their draw backs and both have their advantages, but if I had to pick 1 of the 2.... I'd keep my LWRC.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

If your running a suppressor, there is really no need for a low mass bolt carrier group. The suppressor will reduce much of the recoil.

The Switchblock is nice but I would say not necessary especially on 16" and 18" barrels. The only rounds I culd get to cycle withe suppressed setting on my 18" were 55 grain Lake City. 62 and 77 grain would not cycle on the suppressed setting consistently. The suppressor and enviormental conditions may effect your results.

If you will be shooting full-auto or with an SBR, then I would look at the Switchblock. Other deciding factors for me would be chrome or nickel boron coated bolt carrier groups for easy cleaning.

 

[JSF]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bolt on my LWRC is supperior to my knights (nickle vs phosphate) and cleans up much easier. </div></div>

This is the main thing to look at if you are concerned about ease of cleaning. They will both get just as dirty when shooting suppressed. I can run hundreds of rounds in my POF and pull the bolt carrier group out and wipe it off.

 

[HotAirBaloonInstructor]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason pistons are better suppressed is because they have a setting on the piston you select for shooting suppressed. You can do the same thing in a DI with the Noveske switchblock.</div></div>

this about sums it up

 

[300LW]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

They will both get full of crud but it's not baked on with the piston upper and cleans up much easier.

 

[B4forever]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I previously owned a POF 11.5" that I purchased because I thought it would be the ultimate suppressed SBR. I don't think I put more than 1k rounds through it before selling it. I kept getting stuck cases, and even running the gas setting on suppressed the recoil felt extremely harsh. I also saw signs of carrier tilt almost immediately. I know run an 11.5" BCM upper with my M42K and it runs flawlessly. It doesn't run as clean as the POF but it actually works. If you decide to go DI look into Vltor's A5 buffer system, it really helps to slow down the gun, especially if you run one of the heavier buffers. Everything I have said is just MY experience with only two weapons...take it for what its worth.

 

[B4forever]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

One more thing...this year at the Crimson Trace Midnight 3-gun match there were several stages that included sponsored stage guns, two of which were a FN SCAR 10.5" and a 10.5" PWS MK110, both full auto. The SCAR malfunctioned so many times they had to throw the stage out, the PWS on the other hand ran like a sewing machine. So again, just my experience with only two weapons but I was very impressed by the PWS. That rifle handled 60 rounds per shooter for 110ish shooters! And thats in the dusty Central Oregon environment.

 

[Rprecision]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I have been very impressed with Noveske Switchblock 12.5

Still waiting on the 18"

While piston guns are the rage, I have found the DI to be more forgiving, with better parts support and is proven

 

[mdesign]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

Thanks for the feedback on the different experiences, definitely aligns with some of my own experience which leans towards going with a DI system.

A buddy of mine just purchased a CORE 16" rifle that is a piston gun so I'll likely get a chance to shoot it over Thanksgiving.

I can deal with the need to clean but reliability is a must for me. I really do not like things that don't work well.

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

Piston won't stay cleaner, but will be easier to clean.

Stick with good systems like lwrc or pws and you'll be fine. Not necessarily true of the kit guns. My lwrc rifles run 100% suppressed with no issues or tilt.

Lube a quality DI and you'll be fine, too....but you'll spend more time scraping and soaking. Mine wipe off. Hard to beat that.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Lube a quality DI and you'll be fine, too....but you'll spend more time scraping and soaking. Mine wipe off. Hard to beat that.</div></div>

Yours is easier to clean due to the coating on your bolt carrier group. The same coatings are available on a DI gas system bolt carrier group.

 

[K_4c]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Lube a quality DI and you'll be fine, too....but you'll spend more time scraping and soaking. Mine wipe off. Hard to beat that.</div></div>

Yours is easier to clean due to the coating on your bolt carrier group. The same coatings are available on a DI gas system bolt carrier group. </div></div>

standard on LWRC rifles.... why not Noveske?

LWRC, POF and a few others offer nice incentives..... it's not just the piston system, it's what they've done with the entire weapon system.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Lube a quality DI and you'll be fine, too....but you'll spend more time scraping and soaking. Mine wipe off. Hard to beat that.</div></div>

Yours is easier to clean due to the coating on your bolt carrier group. The same coatings are available on a DI gas system bolt carrier group. </div></div>

standard on LWRC rifles.... why not Noveske?

</div></div>

I guess you would have to ask them.

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Lube a quality DI and you'll be fine, too....but you'll spend more time scraping and soaking. Mine wipe off. Hard to beat that.</div></div>

Yours is easier to clean due to the coating on your bolt carrier group. The same coatings are available on a DI gas system bolt carrier group. </div></div>

The coating definitely helps, but it would be laughable to suggest that is the sole source of the difference in maintenance time. I did start out with suppressed DI Noveske and JP rifles. I've nothing against DI, I'm just objective enough to recognize a benefit from quality piston systems. I like both.

 

[Pappasniper]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I run multiple SBR's suppressed DI. I have never had issues with cycling. Buy quality parts, and it will work. I've used H2, ....buffers, they all have run fine.

I've always said, in 25 years when my sons are running these guns, and there sons, spare parts for DI will be everywhere and better.

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I never experienced problems with my DI rifles either, other than lube burning away a bit sooner and more time to clean. I cleaned my sister's DI, unsuppressed rifle for her recently and it just reminded me why I bought my LWRC. I just don't like having to scrape and chip on a BCG. She would definitely benefit from a Nickel Boron carrier, though.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I guess I don't fully understand all the differences between piston and DI but when you're running suppressed, isn't a large part of the cleanliness problem back-fed through the bore? Not sure how piston or DI helps that.

I went to the website of some of the piston guns being discussed and they really don't say a lot to explain (sell) the benefits of their design.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Legionaire23</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason pistons are better suppressed is because they have a setting on the piston you select for shooting suppressed. You can do the same thing in a DI with the Noveske switchblock.</div></div>

this about sums it up

</div></div>

Not entirely true. Depends on the weapon. Remember the gas is bled off into the gas port (typically) before it gets to the muzzle and cycles the action. While I've worked on a lot of AR platforms, my preference is rifles made of steel and wood. Yes, the M14 could be silenced, I know. It's a cute thought process.

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I don't fully understand all the differences between piston and DI but when you're running suppressed, isn't a large part of the cleanliness problem back-fed through the bore? Not sure how piston or DI helps that.

I went to the website of some of the piston guns being discussed and they really don't say a lot to explain (sell) the benefits of their design. </div></div>

Yes, you are correct, both systems get dirty from back pressure through the bore created by the "muffler" on the muzzle.

The difference is that DI rifles get a high pressure blast of this same dirty gas through their gas tube in order to cycle the weapon, which dumps carbon and heat directly into your bolt carrier group. This situation is exacerbated when you add pressure with a suppressor. Clean it routinely and lube it more, and you'll be fine.
The benefit that a QUALITY piston system (LWRC, PWS, POF) provides is that the relatively low pressure fouling through the chamber after extraction is ALL you get, because the system cycles from the action of a piston rather than "direct" gas flow to the carrier. On the LWRC, the extra gas pressure is bled off near the gasblock where the movement of the piston is initiated.

Because the force on the carrier is off axis, early piston systems suffered from carrier tilt. Some of the kit pistons still do. LWRC, POF, and PWS do not. All my LWRC rifles show zero signs of tilt, run like Swiss watches, shoot MOA or better, clean up easily and are suppressed 99% of the time. It works.

DI rifles can be lighter, and the barrels on Noveske and JP rifles will be more accurate on average. With my style of shooting over truck hoods and fence posts, I'm just not able to tell the diference between an MOA rifle and a half-MOA rifle, so the tangible difference for me is the feel of the rifle as I manipulate it and I can tell it still has lube on it, and not having to clean it very often, coupled with the ease of cleaning when I do take the time.

 

[chainring]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

The gifs above don't show the chamber back pressure fouling that is common to both, they just show the difference from one system to the other using the LWRC short stroke piston as an example. POF and PWS use slightly different methods to achieve the same thing.

 

[clarkarchery]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

I shoot left handed and find piston the way to go.

 

[mike in pa]

Re: Piston vs Gas...Better for suppressor use?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chainring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes, you are correct, both systems get dirty from back pressure through the bore created by the "muffler" on the muzzle.

The difference is that DI rifles get a high pressure blast of this same dirty gas through their gas tube in order to cycle the weapon, which dumps carbon and heat directly into your bolt carrier group. This situation is exacerbated when you add pressure with a suppressor. Clean it routinely and lube it more, and you'll be fine.
The benefit that a QUALITY piston system (LWRC, PWS, POF) provides is that the relatively low pressure fouling through the chamber after extraction is ALL you get, because the system cycles from the action of a piston rather than "direct" gas flow to the carrier. On the LWRC, the extra gas pressure is bled off near the gas block where the movement of the piston is initiated.

Because the force on the carrier is off axis, early piston systems suffered from carrier tilt. Some of the kit pistons still do. LWRC, POF, and PWS do not. All my LWRC rifles show zero signs of tilt, run like Swiss watches, shoot MOA or better, clean up easily and are suppressed 99% of the time. It works. </div></div>

Great post.

I have two LWRC uppers and both work 100% with or without a can and although I shoot them mainly suppressed, they do get a little dirty, but it's no where as dirty as a DI gun.