Piston vs Gas for an AR???

#4
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

Mine are gas, so is the ar10... I don't have a piston, but I would not turn one down either. Just haven't really had a reason to buy one since they started being "common" on ar rifles. My DI rifles have done what I've needed so far.
 
#5
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I prefer the gas piston setup, however, as the guys above me stated...every manufacturer has their own design with POF and Hogan being the exception. That being said, a gas impingement rifle would be the best option unless you're okay with stocking up on spare parts for a piston rifle as you can't just pick them up at a gumshoe like you can a DI.
 
#7
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I assume your talking about getting a LMT MRP...if so, why not take advantage of it's huge natural advantage it yields, the ability to swap barrels and specifically the ability to run LMT's piston barrel setups, along with the traditional D.I. MRP barrels.

The MRP allows one to go from a piston setup to a D.I. setup within 4min. of time. The logical answer to your question is buy both;)
 
#8
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

Now that is a great answer
I can pick up the LMT gas at my FFL right now
And order the piston barrel in a different length if I want to try it?
Right
I know nothing of this gun platform but from a Engeneering stand point the piston would seem to make more Sense ????
John
 
#10
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gas, until there is a set spec of piston guns and everyone uses the same spec like a DI gun. </div></div>

Couldn't have said it better...............
 
#11
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

Pison for sure! They both work and I guess I'm just not running my gun enough to worry about having a stock pile of spares. If shit happens it happens but I won't be wasting my time scrubbing carbon off my bolt...oh wait, you don't have to EVER CLEAN a DI gun...just keep it lubed and you can run thousands upon thousands or rounds thru it with zero issues.

Anyway, I have LWRC's but if to do over again...I'd probably get the LMT....buy it and you can have both without investing in 2 rifles.
 
#14
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

DI, I had over 250,000 rounds out of my work gun (M-4) in 4 years though 6 barrel barrels cleaned it once in a while and never had a problem. You just have to keep the DI guns lubed. They do get really dirty real fast when suppressed.
99% of failure to feed, failure to fire on the AR platform can be directly linked to the magazine.
 
#16
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-...-m4-unreliable/

What will you be doing with the rifle? There are applications that a piston would be favorable over a DI like mentioned above suppressed use. </div></div>

I know Mike P and that is a solid write up. With lube and solid mags the DI ARs run like champs
 
#17
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

DI is the way to go.

I don't know about you guys, but I never have to clean carbon off my DI guns. They run just as well with carbon on the bolt as without it. I just keep them lubed. I've run several thousand rounds without scraping carbon. Don't see a reason to change to an unproven system that provides its own host of problems.

Also, the concept that a piston "runs cleaner" doesn't quite make sense. The carbon is still there, its just collected somewhere other than the bolt.
 
#18
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DI is the way to go.

I don't know about you guys, but I never have to clean carbon off my DI guns. They run just as well with carbon on the bolt as without it. I just keep them lubed. I've run several thousand rounds without scraping carbon. <span style="font-weight: bold">Don't see a reason to change to an unproven system that provides its own host of problems. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Also, the concept that a piston "runs cleaner" doesn't quite make sense. The carbon is still there, its just collected somewhere other than the bolt. </span> </div></div>

What do you consider to be "proven"? I'd say half moa is proven enough for me. Piston rifles do run cleaner and I'm guessing from your statement, you've never fired one much less handled one after someone has finished their time at the range because you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

If you get the right piston rifle, it rarely needs cleaning as it doesn't shit where it eats like the DI system does and it isn't plagued with overheating issues that are common with DI rifles after sending a bunch of lead downrange.
 
#19
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

The problem though is the "right" piston rifle is considerably more expensive than it's DI counter part which is more than adequate enough in the reliability department for any civilian. The article i linked to above shows with quality parts a DI gun taking 2400rds dry to fail. The "shits where it eats" is nowhere near the problem people make it out to be, where as the ones that people always seem to neglect are magazines problems. Not saying that i wouldn't want a piston system for suppressed use, but I can't justify the extra expense. Also IIRC some piston setups are quite heavy compared to an equal DI setup, also a negative for me.

Honestly who neglects their weapon for 2000rds? You'll need to disassemble to check wear and tear on parts anyway. If having to clean a rifle every 2000rds is "too much" and makes the rifle unreliable then, hell i need to throw away a lot of my semis.

As i said i'm not against the piston system i just can't justify the cost for what little use it would provide me. To each their own.
 
#20
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem though is the "right" piston rifle is considerably more expensive than it's DI counter part which is more than adequate enough in the reliability department for any civilian. The article i linked to above shows with quality parts a DI gun taking 2400rds dry to fail. The "shits where it eats" is nowhere near the problem people make it out to be, where as the ones that people always seem to neglect are magazines problems. Not saying that i wouldn't want a piston system for suppressed use, but I can't justify the extra expense. Also IIRC some piston setups are quite heavy compared to an equal DI setup, also a negative for me.

Honestly who neglects their weapon for 2000rds? You'll need to disassemble to check wear and tear on parts anyway. If having to clean a rifle every 2000rds is "too much" and makes the rifle unreliable then, hell i need to throw away a lot of my semis.

As i said i'm not against the piston system i just can't justify the cost for what little use it would provide me. To each their own.</div></div>



Well said, Black Ops, and I agree.
 
#21
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

wow
sorry to have gotten in to one of these not a cut and dry answer
Both sides will just have to:
AGREE TO DISAGREE :)
i have went with the LMT in piston
it just speaks to me from the Rack and says
TAKE ME HOME!!!!!!
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP AND INPUT
i HAVE SO MUCH TO LEARN!!!
BTW my safe would be much less clustered if i followed the rule:
i should not spend the extra $$$$$
some how i feel stupid missing all those clays with a nice O/U :)
thanks john
 
#22
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DI is the way to go.

I don't know about you guys, but I never have to clean carbon off my DI guns. They run just as well with carbon on the bolt as without it. I just keep them lubed. I've run several thousand rounds without scraping carbon. <span style="font-weight: bold">Don't see a reason to change to an unproven system that provides its own host of problems. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Also, the concept that a piston "runs cleaner" doesn't quite make sense. The carbon is still there, its just collected somewhere other than the bolt. </span> </div></div>

What do you consider to be "proven"? I'd say half moa is proven enough for me. Piston rifles do run cleaner and I'm guessing from your statement, you've never fired one much less handled one after someone has finished their time at the range because you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

If you get the right piston rifle, it rarely needs cleaning as it doesn't shit where it eats like the DI system does and it isn't plagued with overheating issues that are common with DI rifles after sending a bunch of lead downrange. </div></div>



So you claiming 1/2 MOA makes the system proven?

There are plenty of examples of pistons failing or causing other problems with long-term use when stuffed into the stoner platform.

Everybody always uses the catch-phrase, "shit where it eats" as if its clever or cute or something. Fact is pistons don't magically make the carbon disappear somehow. Its not as if it just vaporizes and doesn't exist. Its merely gathered somewhere other than the bolt. So, no, they don't "run cleaner".

Yes, I've handled more than my share of piston rifles and fired a ton of ammunition through various systems. I've yet to see a drawback of the DI system.

-Pistons weigh more.

-Pistons have more (wearable) parts to do the same thing

-Piston induce carrier tilt on the stoner platform

-Pistons cost more

-Most all piston system are proprietary and lack parts availability

-Many argue pistons are detrimental to accuracy potential. Anecdotal evidence of this unit or that unit does not prove or disprove this fact unless a given bolt and barrel is tried both ways.

I'd highly advise you to talk to some armorers about the shoe-horned pistons systems on stoner platforms. Head over to m4carbine and see what a few guys there have to say that work on stoner rifles for a living.

So what again are the great advantages? Oh yeah, you can tell people on internet forums that "it doesn't shit where it eats".
 
#23
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem though is the "right" piston rifle is considerably more expensive than it's DI counter part which is more than adequate enough in the reliability department for any civilian. The article i linked to above shows with quality parts a DI gun taking 2400rds dry to fail. The "shits where it eats" is nowhere near the problem people make it out to be, where as the ones that people always seem to neglect are magazines problems. Not saying that i wouldn't want a piston system for suppressed use, but I can't justify the extra expense. Also IIRC some piston setups are quite heavy compared to an equal DI setup, also a negative for me.

Honestly who neglects their weapon for 2000rds? You'll need to disassemble to check wear and tear on parts anyway. If having to clean a rifle every 2000rds is "too much" and makes the rifle unreliable then, hell i need to throw away a lot of my semis.

As i said i'm not against the piston system i just can't justify the cost for what little use it would provide me. To each their own.</div></div>



Well said, Black Ops, and I agree. </div></div>

And he says the very same thing and you "agree".
 
#24
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DI is the way to go.

I don't know about you guys, but I never have to clean carbon off my DI guns. They run just as well with carbon on the bolt as without it. I just keep them lubed. I've run several thousand rounds without scraping carbon. <span style="font-weight: bold">Don't see a reason to change to an unproven system that provides its own host of problems. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Also, the concept that a piston "runs cleaner" doesn't quite make sense. The carbon is still there, its just collected somewhere other than the bolt. </span> </div></div>

What do you consider to be "proven"? I'd say half moa is proven enough for me. Piston rifles do run cleaner and I'm guessing from your statement, you've never fired one much less handled one after someone has finished their time at the range because you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

If you get the right piston rifle, it rarely needs cleaning as it doesn't shit where it eats like the DI system does and it isn't plagued with overheating issues that are common with DI rifles after sending a bunch of lead downrange. </div></div>



So you claiming 1/2 MOA makes the system proven?

<span style="font-weight: bold">There are plenty of examples of pistons failing or causing other problems with long-term use when stuffed into the stoner platform. </span>

Everybody always uses the catch-phrase, "shit where it eats" as if its clever or cute or something. <span style="font-weight: bold">Fact is pistons don't magically make the carbon disappear somehow. Its not as if it just vaporizes and doesn't exist.</span> Its merely gathered somewhere other than the bolt. <span style="font-weight: bold">So, no, they don't "run cleaner". </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, I've handled more than my share of piston rifles and fired a ton of ammunition through various systems. I've yet to see a drawback of the DI system. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Pistons weigh more.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Pistons have more (wearable) parts to do the same thing</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Piston induce carrier tilt on the stoner platform</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Pistons cost more</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Most all piston system are proprietary and lack parts availability </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">-Many argue pistons are detrimental to accuracy potential. Anecdotal evidence of this unit or that unit does not prove or disprove this fact unless a given bolt and barrel is tried both ways.</span>

I'd highly advise you to talk to some armorers about the shoe-horned pistons systems on stoner platforms. Head over to m4carbine and see what a few guys there have to say that work on stoner rifles for a living.

So what again are the great advantages? Oh yeah, you can tell people on internet forums that "it doesn't shit where it eats".

</div></div>

Therein lies the problem, it's a 'piston system' on a different platform. The POF and LWRC are piston rifles; not some gas piston system that was installed on a DI platform.

The carbon is vented out of the rifle, see the video for explanation. It doesn't dump the carbon ANYWHERE inside the rifle. So, YES, they do run cleaner (especially when suppressed) and <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">again</span></span>...you don't know what you're talking about. I simply wipe my BCG off with a paper towel or rag with no cleaning agent needed. Let's see you do that with a DI rifle. Total cleaning time is reduced to seconds when cleaning a piston rifle vs a DI because there is no carbon build-up or fouling.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9e31ElY3AzU&feature"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9e31ElY3AzU&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Furthermore, POF remedied the carrier tilt by beefing up the top rail so that it's no longer an issue.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbVjLZfXp8U"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TbVjLZfXp8U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Weight is no issue when you compare numbers. For example, the POF P415 weighing 7.5# and the BCM M4 Mod2 weighing 6.5#. The Knight's Armament SR16 carbine weighs 6lbs 12oz. The LMT CQB MRP piston rifle weighs 7.3#

As stated previously, sub moa is good accuracy no matter how you look at it. I've mentioned in other topics, where people beat a dead horse where the DI vs piston accuracy is concerned, that Lowlight achieved 3/8 moa with the GAP-10 and just under 1/2 moa with the 16" POF. That would be considered by many to be bolt gun accuracy. That being said, how much more accurate do you need a piston rifle to be?

What would make the gas piston rifle "proven" in your mind? I don't see the government changing out all of their DI rifles for gas piston simply because of the cost factor and the proprietary parts that don't interchange from one manufacturer to the next. Would the fact that NOMAD won the 2010 Oregon Sniper Challenge with a POF make it anymore "proven" in your eyes?

If you have <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">yet to see a drawback of the DI system</span></span> then you're in denial or simply blind. There's the carbon build up issue and overheating issue that plainly stand out which a true piston rifle does not have. Can you turn off the gas to a DI rifle and operate it as you would a bolt rifle? That's another feature of the regulated gas piston rifle.

And, no, Black Ops didn't say the same thing that you did.
 
#25
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

AGAIN, he's talking about ARs---specifically an LMT. AGAIN, I mentioned the STONER platform.

AGAIN, you didn't address the drawbacks.

So there is no carbon build up on the gas block, or the piston itself? Regulators? Springs?

1 lb more, according to your admission. How would you feel about putting on 15-20 lbs? Would you know the difference? To me, 15% more weight is pretty darn significant. Swing weight matters, bud.

Winning a match isn't "proven" or a good example of proven reliability. AGAIN that doesn't address the long-term longevity.

I don't care what you think lowlight says he did. Or anybody else in a match. That doesn't prove the superiority of the operating system, rather the skill level of the individual.

I didn't say a thing about your precious POF. But a company suggesting they solved the problems doesn't mean they actually did. You love your gun and nobody will talk you out of it. You have to validate yourself and your purchase by drinking the marketing Kool-aide.

Have you ever fired a DI gun? Have you fired one for thousands, or tens of thousands of rounds? Did "shitting where it eats" hinder functionality? I own several DI guns and have fired thousands and thousands of rounds. Guess what? All that "carbon build-up" and "heat" hasn't caused a single issue.

You obviously love your rifle (to the extent where you want (and want everybody else) to look at it each time you post. And by all means, its a nice rifle and you should be proud of it. That said, the AR isn't designed to run off a piston. Want a piston gun, get one designed as such from the ground up.

Have a good evening.




ETA:

If anybody wants to see what armorers and industry professionals who fix broken guns for a living have to say about piston vs DI, go here:

http://m4carbine.net/search.php
 
#26
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

Who pissed in your Wheaties today?

For disclosure purposes, I built a Pof. With that being said, I have run a M&P ar15 and a dmps ar10. Both are DI guns. Please come to Minnesota when it is below 20 degrees and tell me that the DI guns are better. I would tell your you are full of shit! DI guns turn into expensive single shots when cold. I wipe my ass with that POS M&P. I have spent plenty of money on different mags to get it to fire correctly. The POF just spits shells no questions asked, period! I'll be looking at them again for an ar10 once I sell mine to my brother.
 
#27
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AGAIN, he's talking about ARs---specifically an LMT. AGAIN, I mentioned the STONER platform.

AGAIN, you didn't address the drawbacks.

So there is no carbon build up on the gas block, or the piston itself? Regulators? Springs?

1 lb more, according to your admission. How would you feel about putting on 15-20 lbs? Would you know the difference? To me, 15% more weight is pretty darn significant. Swing weight matters, bud.

Winning a match isn't "proven" or a good example of proven reliability. AGAIN that doesn't address the long-term longevity.

I don't care what you think lowlight says he did. Or anybody else in a match. That doesn't prove the superiority of the operating system, rather the skill level of the individual.

I didn't say a thing about your precious POF. But a company suggesting they solved the problems doesn't mean they actually did. You love your gun and nobody will talk you out of it. You have to validate yourself and your purchase by drinking the marketing Kool-aide.

Have you ever fired a DI gun? Have you fired one for thousands, or tens of thousands of rounds? Did "shitting where it eats" hinder functionality? I own several DI guns and have fired thousands and thousands of rounds. Guess what? All that "carbon build-up" and "heat" hasn't caused a single issue.

You obviously love your rifle (to the extent where you want (and want everybody else) to look at it each time you post. And by all means, its a nice rifle and you should be proud of it. That said, the AR isn't designed to run off a piston. Want a piston gun, get one designed as such from the ground up.

Have a good evening.




ETA:

If anybody wants to see what armorers and industry professionals who fix broken guns for a living have to say about piston vs DI, go here:

http://m4carbine.net/search.php</div></div>

Tyler, I have truly enjoyed the discussion/banter. I'm sure you'll agree that nothing either us can say will sway the other in their beliefs. For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to a DI rifle and if the GAP-10 had been available when I purchased my POF then I may have went that route instead.

Although I'm convinced the gas piston is the better of the two systems, I've been giving serious thought to purchasing a BCM or LMT AR-15 for a CQ rifle simply because purchasing another piston setup would be more than I want to spend at the present time since I'm about to place an order for a Thunderbeast suppressor.

In closing, yes I have fired DI carbines and no, I didn't notice any difference in carbon buildup but I didn't put thousands of rounds down the tube to find out. No, there is no carbon buildup on the POF. I realize that's hard to believe but...it's true. You'd be amazed by how clean and cool it stays.

Win, lose, or draw...I would really like to see a piston rifle such as LMT, LWRC, or POF in a real world 'battle' scenario just to see how it stacks up against the Stoner rifles.

Oh, and if the image of my rifle offends your eyes, I have no issue with removing it from my signature. LoL

Cheers!
 
#28
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

They both have their places and in reality neither is perfect. As i said before it's personal preference just like a AK or AR. It's a matter of what one wants. I'll be getting my first suppressor in the coming months (turn 21 on the 23rd :D) and i'm interested to see to what extent it will increase fouling.


To the OP glad you made a decision enjoy it.
 
#29
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

Piston guns are overgassed. When used suppressed the major source of fouling is blowback from the barrel. If you want a can and no fouling, get a small ported DI gun. They run very clean. I put 300 rounds through mine before I oiled it, then a few hundred more. No malfunctions so far and it is at least as clean as a DI gun without a can.

And don't tell me M4s don't work in the cold. The military uses them at -40. The Canadian military uses them in the arctic. They work... you're doing something wrong.
 
#30
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trident1982</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume your talking about getting a LMT MRP...if so, why not take advantage of it's huge natural advantage it yields, the ability to swap barrels and specifically the ability to run LMT's piston barrel setups, along with the traditional D.I. MRP barrels.

The MRP allows one to go from a piston setup to a D.I. setup within 4min. of time. The logical answer to your question is buy both;) </div></div>

Ahhh, but is it quicker than just replacing the upper?

Back on point, I've shot an AR10 National Match and a POF briefly (~15-20rds each, they were owned by other people) and I couldn't help but notice how much smoother operating the POF was. Both had 20" barrels and surefire brakes.

I'm not saying the piston system is why as I know there are a myriad of differences between the two, but the POF guy swore it was due to the piston setup.
 
#31
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

OP...perfect video for you:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lQU6iVk-__g&feature=related"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lQU6iVk-__g&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
#32
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

barret rec 7 in 5.56
I have one and treat it poorly (like an AK)

tough as nails

DI are fine, but they crap where they eat. doesn't make much sense to me. the barret has one rod as the piston. I've personally seen rec 7's that have been shot for several thousand rounds without being cleaned or lubed function flawlessly in a week long rifle class at tactical response. ( they were rental guns and had gone through i don't know how many classes prior to mine)

But the DI guns are more ubiquitous and parts are readily accessible.
I know bravo company had a rifle featured in SWAT mag they called dirty 14 or something ( october 2010 issue) and they were talking about it went 31,165 rounds it went without failure etc... changed the extractor spring at 13,010 rounds, replaced the bolt carrier group at 16,400 rounds. then they experienced several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds and they replaced the extractor and extractor spring and did a field cleaning. They did a full cleaning of the rifle at 28,905 rounds. Then they reported several failures to extract at around 30,000 rounds and changed the extractor spring and wiped down the BCG. then they were off again.


I think you will be happy with either type.
both are mechanical and will fail.
just get something and go shoot

just my 2 cents
 
#33
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I have both and like both in different ways. MY DI is a KAC SR15E3, it shoots smooth (and soft) and is built so well I simply love it. I absolutely love the balance of this gun...it is light and feels amazing! I love the integrated front sight...best on the market IMHO. But it is picky on what kind of ammo it will shoot. PMC is hit or miss...I could send it in and they could open the gas port a bit but I dont want to have to have higher pressure rounds (which I shoot more of anyway) be felt more in the recoil department. It does get dirtier than my piston which is a Ruger SR556C. The weight on the SR556C is not nearly as nice as my SR15 but it eats everything I put in it....wolf, tula...etc. It was cheaper than my KAC and it stays significantly cleaner. The ruger is built pretty well. I have no complains. My SR15E3 to me is an enthusiast rifle. I cant bring myself to beat on it like me SR556C. It is just too nice! Both are as accurate as I am so I dont question either. I do use the SR556C more but that is also because my SR15E3 is newer. I have found a trick that makes cleaning easier. Using synthetic oil 10w40 something for diesel engines makes the BCG, Bolt much easier to clean. carbon doesnt seem to stick as well as it does with rem or CLP. It also stays on and doesnt cook off like the other oils do. The smell sucks but it works. So cleaning my DI isnt as bad. But it is still not as easy as my ruger. Hardest part of the ruger to clean is the piston. Everything else is cake and I am done in no time. I do however trust my ruger for reliability more because of one thing...it will cycle damn near any round I put in it. So if the end of the world happens I would grab my ruger over my SR15E3...it can run extremely dry, I can pull it (if I was nuts) out of the water and shoot it without rupturing a gas tube (because there isnt one) or the upper it can get far dirtier and still go off and once again I can put any ammo I want in it. I know it is a stretch but if you had to grab one rifle I think many would choose their piston. You dont know what ammo you would find, if you had enough oil, cleaning kit and so on. Sure there are more parts for DI but I honestly dont (yet) have put that many rounds thru my rifles to worry about that, plus rugers unwritten warranty is quite good doesnt cover everything but dealing with both companies ruger was significantly better. I had an issue with the BCG and bolt finish coming off on my KAC...so they had me send the entire upper in on my dime...not cheap to send in the entire upper...have to insure it and so on. My ruger I sent in to get the new rounded BCG that eliminates carrier tilt...they pay shipping and even sent me a box. Turn around was the same but ruger was quicker to get to the phone and didnt question me. KAC wanted pictures, and a letter...it was a little much! Plus my KAC has a one year warranty...considering the price...a bit of a turn off! And parts on it after that are expensive and not the easiest to get. Just my 2 cents from a survival point of view. It my first post so go easy.

So for me I like piston rifles because they (mine) shoots anything and stays cleaner.
 
#34
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ramseyzoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">barret rec 7 in 5.56
I have one and treat it poorly (like an AK)

tough as nails

DI are fine, but they crap where they eat. doesn't make much sense to me. the barret has one rod as the piston. I've personally seen rec 7's that have been shot for several thousand rounds without being cleaned or lubed function flawlessly in a week long rifle class at tactical response. ( they were rental guns and had gone through i don't know how many classes prior to mine)

But the DI guns are more ubiquitous and parts are readily accessible.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I know bravo company had a rifle featured in SWAT mag they called dirty 14 or something ( october 2010 issue) and they were talking about it went 31,165 rounds it went without failure etc... changed the extractor spring at 13,010 rounds, replaced the bolt carrier group at 16,400 rounds. then they experienced several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds and they replaced the extractor and extractor spring and did a field cleaning. They did a full cleaning of the rifle at 28,905 rounds. Then they reported several failures to extract at around 30,000 rounds and changed the extractor spring and wiped down the BCG. then they were off again.</span>


I think you will be happy with either type.
both are mechanical and will fail.
just get something and go shoot

just my 2 cents
</div></div>


Thats called wear on parts due to mechanical stress. Parts wear out, i'm not saying a piston driven couldn't do it, i don't know but i would expect similar results as to failure of parts, broken extractors etc. That doesn't really fall in place with everyone's "Shit where it eats" comment that people keep bringing up. As i said earlier if cleaning every 2000rds is too much for you and makes a rifle unreliable well then there is something wrong here. People can argue about DI not being clean but fact of the matter is that isn't the biggest problem of the system failing. You'll find more evidence and there of in the magazine department with horrible followers, bent feed lips etc. Even operator error. That being said yes Carbon buildup does effect function down the rode if you do not plan to clean at all (which is stupid) but 2000rds down the road is more then enough to consider it reliable. Especially when that 2400rds in the article above was achieved dry...they'll do better with lube.

I agree that they're both mechanical and subject to failure at some point or another.

Also DI's not shooting steel ammunition is ammunition problem most if not all of the time. Wolf is low pressurized ammunition and if your shooting it in a .062 gas port (mil spec) it's going to short stroke. If you want to shoot steel ammunition go get a commercial gun with a carbine buffer and a commerical gas port, have at it. Training ammo that's regulated at proper pressure should cycle like hornady TAP 75gr HPBT. JMO
 
#35
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I put about 1k of wolf 55 gr through my BCM 16" middy (spec gas port obviously) without any short strokes, running an H buffer. This was done with lube beforehand of course (lubed around 400 rounds before, no cleaning before the 1000 wolf), mix of P-mags and quality USGI mags. The only hangup I had was from follower tilt in one particular USGI mag (happened twice, same mag).

I've run my 14.5 lw middy with an H2 with wolf. As soon as I put it together, I ran it without an initial lube. It short-stroked three times in the first mag ever through the gun. The second mag did it again. I lubed for the third mag and it ran without hangup. So far I've run it dry with an H and not had an issue and wet with an H2 seems reliable thus far.
 
#36
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thats called wear on parts due to mechanical stress. </div></div>

Exactly. And when parts wear on a piston rifle, you're hostage to them for parts. DI are spec'ed and standardized. You can get parts from a host of vendors and manufacturers and they will work. Its not hard to keep an bolt kit around. Crane O-ring, gas rings, extractor springs, extractors, etc are all commonly available and cheap. DI guns are easy to keep running.
 
#37
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put about 1k of wolf 55 gr through my BCM 16" middy (spec gas port obviously) without any short strokes, running an H buffer. This was done with lube beforehand of course (lubed around 400 rounds before, no cleaning before the 1000 wolf), mix of P-mags and quality USGI mags. The only hangup I had was from follower tilt in one particular USGI mag (happened twice, same mag).

I've run my 14.5 lw middy with an H2 with wolf. As soon as I put it together, I ran it without an initial lube. It short-stroked three times in the first mag ever through the gun. The second mag did it again. I lubed for the third mag and it ran without hangup. So far I've run it dry with an H and not had an issue and wet with an H2 seems reliable thus far. </div></div>

I must've not thoroughly cleaned my factory grease off or something. I was shooting some wolf when i first got my 14.5 BCM and had short strokes. Was using a pmag.
 
#39
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

That LMT is wicked, you get the best of both worlds I think. I own both the DI and piston systems and I love them both. If you don't have the option of buying both start out with a DI gun then venture out to the newer concept of the piston driven rifles. Believe me for most it doesn't stop at 1 gun. Just make sure you buy a quality machine and your off to a good start.
 
#40
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thats called wear on parts due to mechanical stress. </div></div>

Exactly. <span style="font-weight: bold">And when parts wear on a piston rifle, you're hostage to them for parts.</span> DI are spec'ed and standardized. You can get parts from a host of vendors and manufacturers and they will work. Its not hard to keep an bolt kit around. Crane O-ring, gas rings, extractor springs, extractors, etc are all commonly available and cheap. DI guns are easy to keep running. </div></div>

Very true. I wish there was a standard spec for piston rifles but as it stands, everyone claims to have the 'best' piston design so...I don't see standardization coming anytime soon, if at all. =\
 
#41
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Piston guns are overgassed. When used suppressed the major source of fouling is blowback from the barrel. If you want a can and no fouling, get a small ported DI gun. They run very clean. I put 300 rounds through mine before I oiled it, then a few hundred more. No malfunctions so far and it is at least as clean as a DI gun without a can.

And don't tell me M4s don't work in the cold. The military uses them at -40. The Canadian military uses them in the arctic. They work... you're doing something wrong. </div></div>

I was thinking the same thing there, what does the US and Canada do when it gets down to 0 and below? I have shot my SPR at 10 below on a coyote hunt, it fired every round, and supposedly according to others it should work in the cold as it has a rifle action instead of a mid action, gotta love the internetz and all the arm chair experts.

ETA, this debate will go on forever, but I can tell you that any piston system is a comprimise at best, it has to be made to fit in the existing demensions. If the pistons are so great, why is SOCOM going more SCARs, and phasing out 416's?
 
#42
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

Way DI works one would think the hot gases would aid in reliability of the weapon in cold conditions. I would have to call BS on the DI not working in cold conditions also.

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#43
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mstennes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Piston guns are overgassed. When used suppressed the major source of fouling is blowback from the barrel. If you want a can and no fouling, get a small ported DI gun. They run very clean. I put 300 rounds through mine before I oiled it, then a few hundred more. No malfunctions so far and it is at least as clean as a DI gun without a can.

And don't tell me M4s don't work in the cold. The military uses them at -40. The Canadian military uses them in the arctic. They work... you're doing something wrong. </div></div>

I was thinking the same thing there, what does the US and Canada do when it gets down to 0 and below? I have shot my SPR at 10 below on a coyote hunt, it fired every round, and supposedly according to others it should work in the cold as it has a rifle action instead of a mid action, gotta love the internetz and all the arm chair experts.

ETA, this debate will go on forever, but I can tell you that any piston system is a comprimise at best, it has to be made to fit in the existing demensions. If the pistons are so great, why is SOCOM going more SCARs, and phasing out 416's? </div></div>

SOCOM has nearly dropped the 16 and is buying lots of 17s. The 416 has significant issues in service, the internet hasn't really found out yet.
 
#44
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

forgot to add this to previous post:

but if i were just gonna have one I'd get a DI and do regular maintenance and have some spare parts and not worry bout it.
 
#45
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I desided 2 years ago to play with a piston gun so I built one using an AA kit that way I could keep my di parts and I also bought an extra rod and springs from AA. I liked the AA kit because it was simple and ajustable. So far the jury is still out it is heavier but not much but I am starting to really like it over the DI. My kit came with the improved bolt and so far no tilt after 2.5k rounds fired give it another 2.5k and we will see. If I had to it could be converted back to di in less than thirty minutes.
 
#47
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again what everyone seems to fail to question is what is the difference between Piston and DI guns when it come to full auto. </div></div>

200 rpm.
 
#48
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I have ran both and currently own a piston. If I could do it again, I would stay DI and spend the money on something else. Since I have the piston, I save a little time not cleaning the bolt and carrier. However, I was trained to take it apart and inspect it every time anyway, so I only save about 15 minutes. If you go piston, make sure you use some type of anti seize compound on the piston plug threads (especially with a full-auto). If not, you will basically weld it to the gas block and then you will be out the money and you'll be kicking yourself for not getting the DI. Don't ask me how I know!
 
#49
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I like both and have had both in 223 and 308... I now prefer the POF's for 223 and 308.. Love the bolt/ carrier group being cool to the touch and clean after a quick run of two or three full mags . The accuracy is sweet with either, havn't seen a real difference between the two but I am no Carlos Hathcock.
.......SmokeRolls
 
#50
Re: Piston vs Gas for an AR???

I prefer a piston rifle....runs cleaner and cooler (BCG/receiver) than a DI rifle. Although not an "AR", I have a SIG 556 and love it. Has never let me down......a bit heavy but it goes "pow" every timer I pull the trigger. This is the rifle (sitting on a bipod to take the picture):

Infidel_0041-1.jpg


Infidel_0040-1.jpg


GTGunner
 
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