Planning Gun Room Build, Electrical Question

[neeltburn]

In the process of planning my gun room build. The room is approx 50 feet from the service panel and will be 15x20 or close to it once completed.. I would like to run a 20A circuit for outlets in the room. I was looking at running a 12-2 wire for this circuit but research has been questioning if the is large enough given the distance. Any electricians on here? I have some time before wiring as removing floor drains and having the concrete floor leveled is the first priority.

 

[kyzim311]

In the process of planning my gun room build. The room is approx 50 feet from the service panel and will be 15x20 or close to it once completed.. I would like to run a 20A circuit for outlets in the room. I was looking at running a 12-2 wire for this circuit but research has been questioning if the is large enough given the distance. Any electricians on here? I have some time before wiring as removing floor drains and having the concrete floor leveled is the first priority.

12 gauge is fine for 20 amps for outlets, 14 gauge for 15 amp lighting runs. Unless you are in some area with extra restrictions.

 

[_Windrider_]

@Spblademaker is an electrician

 

[padom]

Yep I run 12-2 romex from dedicated 20amp breaker at panel for each electrical outlet circuit...14-2 romex from 15amp breaker to each lighting circuit

 

[Jgunner]

Lol. 12-2 is plenty. If you want 2 circuits then 12-3 and share the neutral and ground. If it was 200’ i might worry. How far are runs in your house as they wind around the home? Long.

Id run 12-3 and use one leg for lighting, although its not really necessary. Depends on how many outlets you want and what they will be running.

 

[Snuby642]

You always find more stuff to plug in than you expected. A gfi circuit is nice for many reasons.

Battery backup unit surge protected and signal conditioning for scales ect, they need that gfi circut.

You don't want to do it twice

 

[Jimmay]

I'm an electrical contractor and as mentioned above 12/2 is perfectly fine at that distance. Check your local codes because some may not let you use the 14 gauge for lighting. Always use the combination AFCI breakers also.
You might want to run 2 circuits and split the room in half. If it's just a TV and dehumidifier then your fine with one, but if you will be using a space heater or something then you will need that extra circuit.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

I may be the odd-duck out here, but I'd suggest 12/3 and split the phases so that each socket on each outlet is on a different circuit.

You could do this simply and anally by having all of the top sockets wired to A circuit and all the bottom sockets wired to B circuit. Unless you were doing such horizontally, then it would be left/right. Just an idea.

Overkill IS under-rated. And yes, GFCI's are always good. Costly, but good.

 

[neeltburn]

I'm an electrical contractor and as mentioned above 12/2 is perfectly fine at that distance. Check your local codes because some may not let you use the 14 gauge for lighting. Always use the combination AFCI breakers also.
You might want to run 2 circuits and split the room in half. If it's just a TV and dehumidifier then your fine with one, but if you will be using a space heater or something then you will need that extra circuit.

Seems like really good advice. I was thinking of running 2 circuits and doing every other outlet box on a circuit. Dehumidifier is a must for sure. I will look in to an AFCI breaker as well for the room.

 

[lonegunman762x51]

I'm not an electrician but I made a run similar to yours for my gun room and I used 12/3. I made one leg lights and one outlets. I used conduit instead of romex because I had the materials and it is on a GFI breaker in case anything gets hot.

How secure are you making the room? My last "gun room" used a layer of expanded steel, 3/4" plywood, then fire resistant drywall for the outside walls on a wall of studs on 12" centers, pinned into concrete top and bottom with a Ramset. Good luck with a chainsaw or a sledgehammer. The door was a commercial fire resistant door with a flush frame, monkey proof hinges and a firing port from an armored truck centered in it.

 

[woodsmoke]

Just a word of caution that running 2 circuits on 12/3 and sharing the neutral no longer meets NEC code requirements. That may or may not apply to your situation, but if you want a second circuit, I’d go ahead and pull a 12/2 for each one. It’s not that much more trouble and you won’t have issues later if you sell the place. The issue is that if you have both circuits loaded up near max, you’re likely overloading the neutral.

 

[Milf Dots]

Just a word of caution that running 2 circuits on 12/3 and sharing the neutral no longer meets NEC code requirements. That may or may not apply to your situation, but if you want a second circuit, I’d go ahead and pull a 12/2 for each one. It’s not that much more trouble and you won’t have issues later if you sell the place. The issue is that if you have both circuits loaded up near max, you’re likely overloading the neutral.

This ^ ...

And remember the purpose of breakers is primarily to protect the conductors. GFCI, AFCI, and surge protectors, add protection for people and devices.

If you can't afford to hire a licensed electrician, perhaps you can pay or barter with one to at least advise.

 

[Snuby642]

Even in a dry environment a bbu / surge arrestor / power conditioner ? needs the gfi circuit .

When my ground got hacked it would not work till fixed.

They will smooth out short term interruptions condition voltage (good for scales) and protect equipment from minor surges.

They will also blow the hell up if hit by lightning. Good, fried the unit blew up the batteries. Everything on the surge only portion got whacked.

Everything on the battery backup portion survived unharmed.

Plug your expensive stuff in on the backup side.

 

[Farmerhunter]

Above information not quite correct. You can use a 12-3 and meet nec code. All you have to do is use a 2 pole combination afci/gfci breaker. That being said I agree 100% that you should hire a electrician.

 

[Btrain]

Good luck with the project… on the backside of mine. My hold up display wall gets here tomorrow- looking forward to installing it this weekend

 

[Long Range 338]

Above information not quite correct. You can use a 12-3 and meet nec code. All you have to do is use a 2 pole combination afci/gfci breaker.

Don’t do this. Just run 2 separate home runs.

 

[SugarBooger]

 

[Farmerhunter]

Not recommending it just saying it can be done and is up to code. It is how you can gfci circuits in older houses that were wired with 12-3 home runs. That’s why I recommend an electrician so you can be shown the correct way of doing it. Not listening to some one one the internet and ending up burning down your house.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Good for you. Did some work on my own with a qualified electrician verifying its safety. Dob’t make the mistake I made, make sure your light switches are convenient to the opening door. Mine works great, jsut too far from the door.

 

[300zx_tt]

if you have room in your breaker box pull 3 runs. Code around here says you can’t have the lights and outlets on the same line. So one light circuit and 2 for the outlets. Don’t waste money on 12/3 that’s against code now. Use arc fault breakers, any new line in your home that isn’t a dedicated line needs to be arc fault.

 

[srtsam]

Yeah man, 220, 221…whatever it takes lol

 

[neeltburn]

This ^ ...

And remember the purpose of breakers is primarily to protect the conductors. GFCI, AFCI, and surge protectors, add protection for people and devices.

If you can't afford to hire a licensed electrician, perhaps you can pay or barter with one to at least advise.

I have a friend who is an electrician who I normally run things by and get help from. I don’t see him much since I moved so I thought I’d ask here for a supplies list / estimate of cost. I plan to run my plan by him completely before starting the work.

 

[greg1147]

Just a word of caution that running 2 circuits on 12/3 and sharing the neutral no longer meets NEC code requirements. That may or may not apply to your situation, but if you want a second circuit, I’d go ahead and pull a 12/2 for each one. It’s not that much more trouble and you won’t have issues later if you sell the place. The issue is that if you have both circuits loaded up near max, you’re likely overloading the neutral.

• Is sharing neutrals an acceptable practice? Is it code compliant?

Sharing neutrals is perfectly legal in most situations. The NEC term for several ungrounded conductors sharing a neutral is a "multiwire branch circuit." The definition is in Article 100. The key is, a multiwire branch circuit has a voltage between all the conductors of the circuit - two conductors on the "A" phase is not a multiwire branch circuit.

So, code compliance aside, is it a good idea? Many electricians do not approve of them, as disconnecting a neutral when one or more of the ungrounded conductors are live results in damage to equipment, and a shock hazard to the person working on the circuit.

The portion of the neutral that is connected to energized loads is carrying current, and can be lethal.

 

[J.J.chago]

While there may be a few of us real electricians on here, be cautious. It is kinda like reloading advice on forums. Just because it makes sense it doesn’t mean it is the best route.

 

[J.J.chago]

• Is sharing neutrals an acceptable practice? Is it code compliant?

Sharing neutrals is perfectly legal in most situations. The NEC term for several ungrounded conductors sharing a neutral is a "multiwire branch circuit." The definition is in Article 100. The key is, a multiwire branch circuit has a voltage between all the conductors of the circuit - two conductors on the "A" phase is not a multiwire branch circuit.

So, code compliance aside, is it a good idea? Many electricians do not approve of them, as disconnecting a neutral when one or more of the ungrounded conductors are live results in damage to equipment, and a shock hazard to the person working on the circuit.

The portion of the neutral that is connected to energized loads is carrying current, and can be lethal.

Agree , I have seen many more “electricians” hurt by taking a shared neutral loose, Than just getting the shit knocked out of them by touching the “hot”

 

[Milf Dots]

A good quality, properly working, contactless volt sensor/volt tic/volt stick, with fresh battery, is invaluable even for homeowners.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Dehumidifiers need drainage. I would have a drain line plumbed to out side or sewage. That way you dont need to drain the reservoir.

 

[BAMAboy18]

I'm also an electrician, if it were mine, I'd overkill it with running a small sub-panel so I'd have 220v available (HVAC) and separate 110v for outlets/ lighting. I'd definitely have a wall of work benches with good lighting over head and several outlets. But that's just me hating to go back later and upgrade stuff.

 

[BAMAboy18]

Agree , I have seen many more “electricians” hurt by taking a shared neutral loose, Than just getting the shit knocked out of them by touching the “hot”

I work for Koreans, our plant is an electricians nightmare, no codes followed as for as wire colors, high/low colors mixed, grounds are green, black & orange, neutrals can be white, blue, gray & yellow. I don't know where my boss gets his cable tray wire (says American wire on spools) but it's usually 4 strand; black, red, blue, orange. Argued with him when he built a male-male extention cord to backfeed a circuit, "just temporary" 6 months later he demanded to know who did it ??? So I reminded him.

 

[HousePlant]

This is 110V wire, not 12V car audio wire. Personally, I don't feel 50 feet is a big deal (other than how expensive copper is). I'd just run the whole thing with two runs of white romex (14 AWG; plugs and lights) unless I was going to be running heavy electrical consumption in that room, then I'd run lighting with the white romex and plugs with yellow (12AWG) romex. No sense spending unnecessarily for all yellow romex. Not to mention, 14AWG solid wire is a PITA compared to the bendy 12AWG solid wire. If you run yellow romex for plugs, get 20A plugs!

If code allowed me to run a single run for plugs and lightning (which would surprise me), than I'd do a single yellow romex run with a convenient junction box to split lighting and plugs. Why? I highly doubt any gun room I have would consume that much electricity in the first place. Unless I'm missing something, I can't think of any gun-related item (other than industrial machining machines/tools) that would need a great deal of electricity, especially if the room is just for just storing guns. Dehumidifiers use about the same amount of power as a desktop computer... no big deal.

Just make sure you get the correct breaker for your box -- bring an example to the store. Gas is expensive to have to go back.

 

[Bullfrog08]

Bet your glad you asked this question, huh? Now you're more confused than you were before you started.

 

[stello1001]

I would do 12/2 for each circuit as well and use AFCI breakers. Since this is a sub panel, remember not to use the bonding screw from ground to neutral. You must keep those separate.

Check with NEC as well. I don't remember how many circuits it was, but after X amount of circuits in a sub panel, you need to have a main breaker to shut the whole thing off.

 

[Jgunner]

14 is bendy 15a, 12 is the thicker wire rated for 20a in yellow.

This is 110V wire, not 12V car audio wire. Personally, I don't feel 50 feet is a big deal (other than how expensive copper is). I'd just run the whole thing with two runs of white romex (14 AWG; plugs and lights) unless I was going to be running heavy electrical consumption in that room, then I'd run lighting with the white romex and plugs with yellow (12AWG) romex. No sense spending unnecessarily for all yellow romex. Not to mention, 14AWG solid wire is a PITA compared to the bendy 12AWG solid wire. If you run yellow romex for plugs, get 20A plugs!

If code allowed me to run a single run for plugs and lightning (which would surprise me), than I'd do a single yellow romex run with a convenient junction box to split lighting and plugs. Why? I highly doubt any gun room I have would consume that much electricity in the first place. Unless I'm missing something, I can't think of any gun-related item (other than industrial machining machines/tools) that would need a great deal of electricity, especially if the room is just for just storing guns. Dehumidifiers use about the same amount of power as a desktop computer... no big deal.

Just make sure you get the correct breaker for your box -- bring an example to the store. Gas is expensive to have to go back.

 

[Milf Dots]

@neeltburn

It appears there are at least three four electricians @Jimmay @J.J.chago @greg1147 @BAMAboy18
in this thread so the best thing we non-electricians can do is stfu and leave it to the experts!

NEC is national but some states/local jurisdictions still follow older versions of Code because they haven't had a chance to "review and approve the latest code for themselves". This alone could explain some of the seemingly contradictory points posted in this thread.

It's almost always wisest to follow "Best Practices" rather than take shortcuts- for safety, for potential insurance and possible future property resale.

I'm out.

 

[greg1147]

I'm also an electrician, if it were mine, I'd overkill it with running a small sub-panel so I'd have 220v available (HVAC) and separate 110v for outlets/ lighting. I'd definitely have a wall of work benches with good lighting over head and several outlets. But that's just me hating to go back later and upgrade stuff.

Yup after 40+ years in the trade overkill becomes a habit. I always tell homeowners that ask about doing their own wiring to keep the number of the local fire department/EMT handy

 

[Ravenworks]

I'm missing something, I can't think of any gun-related item (other than industrial machining machines/tools) that would need a great deal of electricity, especially if the room is just for just storing guns. Dehumidifiers use about the same amount of power as a desktop computer... no big deal.

I think you'd be surprised how much a dehumidifier consumes.

Plug a 1700 watt hair dryer into an outlet and you'll be pushing a 15 Amp circuit.
Good reason why kitchens and lavatories/bathrooms call for the circuits they do.

 

[hollowoutadime]

East to pull the second wire as your likely drilling through joists/studs. Use a combination ground fault/arc fault. You'll very likely never have an electrical fire, those will always pop first. Rewired my house, put about 40 of those in. You don't want them on refrigerator circuits, they can get messy sometimes with motors (which "arc" by nature). Put in a lot of outlets, never use an extension cord if you don't have to.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

A de humidifier (30-70 pint)for a small room only draws 3-5 amps of 120. No they don’t need a ton of current.

If the room is attached to a home and Air-conditioned by a central unit, it’s doubtful you would even need a dehumidifier. Or it would likely rarely be needed. There is no reason to go hog wild on power for a small storage room. 15-20amp circuit with 2 receptacles and lightning run off an adjacent lightning run is likely plenty.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Gun room? Concrete?

Consider one of these:

Light Vault Door - Smith Security Safes

Check out Smith Security Safes entry level vault door, providing basic protection from your average burglar or person meaning harm.

www.smithsecuritysafes.com

 

[Barelstroker]

I'm an electrician.
I can't give sound advice because we have different voltages & regulations in my country but, I do advise you either get a sparky to do the job or at very least get one to advise you thoroughly.
Because you guys use lower voltages than we do, your current consumption is much higher & current does the work & makes the heat. It's not only the regulations that should concern you. Simply knowing what to do & applying it properly & professionally can & many times is the difference between a safe reliable system & nightmare waiting to happen.
What price for piece of mind?

 

[Barelstroker]

I work for Koreans, our plant is an electricians nightmare, no codes followed as for as wire colors, high/low colors mixed, grounds are green, black & orange, neutrals can be white, blue, gray & yellow. I don't know where my boss gets his cable tray wire (says American wire on spools) but it's usually 4 strand; black, red, blue, orange. Argued with him when he built a male-male extention cord to backfeed a circuit, "just temporary" 6 months later he demanded to know who did it ??? So I reminded him.

I'll take a bit of a risk, very occasionally & mainly with stuff that can't be accessed easily but, A male to male plug., Faaaaaarkenell. That's a bridge too far for me. Way too easy for shit to get nasty real fast.

 

[clcustom1911]

Yup after 40+ years in the trade overkill becomes a habit. I always tell homeowners that ask about doing their own wiring to keep the number of the local fire department/EMT handy

This is why I don't feel the need to get learned up on electricity. Anything more than replacing a light switch or outlet and I call someone.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to see how much it's gonna cost to wire up a rotary phase converter for my 3ph/220v mill, Tree 2uvr. LOL fuck

 

[greg1147]

This is why I don't feel the need to get learned up on electricity. Anything more than replacing a light switch or outlet and I call someone.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to see how much it's gonna cost to wire up a rotary phase converter for my 3ph/220v mill, Tree 2uvr. LOL fuck

Converter are not that expensive depending on HP of the motor, $700-$900 for the converter Wiring is basically like wiring a motor with an output.

 

[clcustom1911]

Converter are not that expensive depending on HP of the motor, $700-$900 for the converter Wiring is basically like wiring a motor with an output.

Yeah. I've seen a few, not too bad. Probably gonna do a 5-7hp into a dedicated 3ph panel where I can plug in 2 or 3 machines at once then select which plug(s) gets power... if that's even possible LOL. I don't know shit about electrical.

 

[BAMAboy18]

I'll take a bit of a risk, very occasionally & mainly with stuff that can't be accessed easily but, A male to male plug., Faaaaaarkenell. That's a bridge too far for me. Way too easy for shit to get nasty real fast.

Their blatant disregard for safety is my only concern for this job. I like what I do, just not who for. But they pay me good, and obviously OSHA too...

 

[chevy_man]

Lol. 12-2 is plenty. If you want 2 circuits then 12-3 and share the neutral and ground. If it was 200’ i might worry. How far are runs in your house as they wind around the home? Long.

Id run 12-3 and use one leg for lighting, although its not really necessary. Depends on how many outlets you want and what they will be running.

Not legal anymore.

You can get 12/2/2 romex with 2 hot, 2 neutral and 1 ground. Needs to be afci/GFCI protected in a dwelling unit and basement, so you need dedicated neutrals to each breaker.

12 is good to 100-150' depending on real world load. Voltage drop is figured with the load, but usable is 16A on a 20A circuit if it's unknown.

 

[chevy_man]

• Is sharing neutrals an acceptable practice? Is it code compliant?

Sharing neutrals is perfectly legal in most situations. The NEC term for several ungrounded conductors sharing a neutral is a "multiwire branch circuit." The definition is in Article 100. The key is, a multiwire branch circuit has a voltage between all the conductors of the circuit - two conductors on the "A" phase is not a multiwire branch circuit.

So, code compliance aside, is it a good idea? Many electricians do not approve of them, as disconnecting a neutral when one or more of the ungrounded conductors are live results in damage to equipment, and a shock hazard to the person working on the circuit.

The portion of the neutral that is connected to energized loads is carrying current, and can be lethal.

Old info. Went out with the 17 I believe. Up until the 08 we could share, then we had to put them on the same breaker (so 2 or 3 20A circuits went on a 2 or 3p 20A standard breaker). 17 just said no more shared neutrals.

Multi-pole AFCI/GFCI are designed for a piece of equipment that needs protection and requires 2+poles. 99% of the time I install these it's for electric heat in a basement (everything below grade level must be GFCI now), or heat tape in the gutters. No neutral, so it will trip when the A&B phases are unbalanced.

AFCI/GFCI will get pissy if you try and share. Not worth fighting the breakers. Just do it right the first time.
We have tried it in remodels, and always end up changing something and fishing a new home run because it never works long term. Part of the issue is most have a current limit they won't trip under. Silly stuff like 6A is ok all day, 7A and it won't reset.

 

[neeltburn]

Thanks guys been checking on the posts. I’m gonna have a friend that is an electrician look over everything and review my plan closely. the room will be my gun room / reloading area. No heavy equipment other than a dehumidifier. I plan to have a mini split hvac unit installed for the room.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Do a bunch of interconnected smoke/carbon monoxide detectors. Especially important if you have a powder keg down there.