Advanced Marksmanship POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

[bowshot]

I feel that my establishment of NPOA is proper (I can be talked out of that...). I have consistent recoil behaviour (usually straight upward). But after recoil I have always have to steer back to the bull with the rear bag to some degree. My question is, when does the degree of steering required indicate poor form?

I shoot .204 cal and 6.5x55, prone on grass, bipod, pinching a rear bag.

The sight picture remains throughout the shot with the .204, and I'll be off the bull by about 3' @ 400 yards after the shot.

The sight pic goes black during the shot with the 6.5, and when it returns after recoil, I'll be off about 4' @ 400 yards.

Both rifles are doing about 1" @ 300y when the shooter is good.

I'm not a pro. I just like to kill small things from long distances.

 

[rero360]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I could be wrong, but it sounds like as the rifle is recoiling your body is relaxing thus loosening the grip on the rear bag, letting the buttstock lower and the muzzle rise. There may be more things going on here but thats what I've picked up on.

 

[Target In Sight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Straight behind the rifle is key, and if you haven't taken the advantage on the Snipers Hide Online Training You should sign up now. Great lessons and it has made me a much better shooter.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bow shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I feel that my establishment of NPOA is proper (I can be talked out of that...). I have consistent recoil behaviour (usually straight upward). But after recoil I have always have to steer back to the bull with the rear bag to some degree. My question is, when does the degree of steering required indicate poor form?

I shoot .204 cal and 6.5x55, prone on grass, bipod, pinching a rear bag.

The sight picture remains throughout the shot with the .204, and I'll be off the bull by about 3' @ 400 yards after the shot.

The sight pic goes black during the shot with the 6.5, and when it returns after recoil, I'll be off about 4' @ 400 yards.

Both rifles are doing about 1" @ 300y when the shooter is good.

I'm not a pro. I just like to kill small things from long distances.
</div></div>

How do you discern you have adjusted NPA properly? Describe how you build your position.

 

[Woj8541]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I agree with Sterling Shooter, you would need to describe how you build your position first. But it sounds like the problem could be your body not being in line with the rifle, thus causing the weapon to jump laterally even the slightest bit during the process of recoil. Again, not knowing details, this is a best guess.

 

[Graham]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Lowlight might disagree with me on this, but some rifles, like Skibum's SH22, will hop a bit even when your NPA is good and your body is in line with the rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight might disagree with me on this, but some rifles, like Skibum's SH22, will hop a bit even when your NPA is good and your body is in line with the rifle.</div></div>

There can be any number of reasons this happens and none are them are standard or natural.

The balance can be off in some way, whether something in the stock, barrel, or whatever, that throws the rifle off. Then again what is "off" being an 1" off target isn't really off in my opinion, that is almost to be expected, being 10" off is being off, being 6" off can be off, it just depends on how realistic you are.

Heck I see a bunch of Harris Bipods including one I have where the legs aren't square and throw the rifle off. The height on the two legs are not equal, causing the rifle to recoil unnaturally. So the number of issues it can be, beyond the shooter is just as big as anything else.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Sorry for the delay folks. Usless Dial up at home, and we are in a frenzy at work. I'm reading the advice now, ruminate on it, and respond around 12:00 today (if I get a lunch break...)

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

...and I gather that my degree of deviation from the bull DOESindicate that something is wrong in my form (ie., anywhere from NPOA establishment to follow-through).

Do I have an amen on that?

I should also say that I'm not shooting a tactical stock with either weapon. The .204 is a heavy (appx. 11 lb) laminated varmint style with beaver tail forend (Savage VLP), and the stock on the 6.5x55 is very similar, but lighter.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

rero360: I have the bag (it has ears, filled with rice) and stock meeting my shoulder as if they are one unit. At recoil, the stock, bag and shoulder all stay together. It is well possible that I'm doing as you suggest (relaxing through the shot), but haven't paid attention. I'll observe at next trigger time.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Target In sight: I want that training: crappy dial at home and too much OT prevents it thus far. Its gonna happen soon. I may just spend some precious vacation to do that.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Sterling shooter: though I feel that my establishment of NPOA is proper, I can be talked out of that. I've been scouring this site (fundamental of marksmanship, the bipod strings, etc.) and I'll say that I think I'm doing things "right", but that's with the rigity of the basic laws in mind, as well as the maverick stuff. Rather than regurgitate the material, I just describe what I actually do, LOL...

Concerning the .204 (I'll leave the 6.5 out for now) the rifle is resitng on the bipod, steered (windage) toward the bull as close as possible without any external forces applied the the 'pod or the rear. I lay down behind it with my body tilted off the centerline of the weapon about 15 degrees. This puts the stock not in the pocket, but on a little spot between my shoulder muscles and the outboard collar bone joint. I understand that this is not classic form, but I am unable to get predictable recoil reaction placing in "the pocket".

I have my cheek slightly in contact with the stock. There is neck tension required to have my head slightly erect (ie, I could not fall asleep in this orientation, but if I laid my head on the stock, I could). The bipod is slightly loaded (using the back arching method often discussed here) providing gentle stock-to-shoulder union pressure. My trigger hand is not in contact with the stock at all. It is only in contact with the tip of the trigger. The forearm of my aiming hand is close to flat on the grond, and my aiming hand is either in a fist, compressing the rear bag with my knuckles whil steering the rear swivel sling with my thumb, or it is squeesing the bag, and steering with wrist motion.

Again, I understand that this is not classic form, but it yields my most repeatable recoil reaction thus far, straight upward with the .204, the croshairs remaining within a few inchies of the bull, literally. But the upward displacement is what has me concerned.

I have (genuinely) spent over 900 shots to get what I hve so far. But I'm willing to be told I'm wrong.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

'Should mention this also: I gave the direct line of action method (shooter exactly behind and in line with the rifle, stock in the pocket, and strong cheek weld) a lot of work, close to my first 700 rounds before telling myself that it was not going to come together. The trouble I encountered was that recoil reaction was totally unbredictable. I experimented with these variables:

1) stock-to-pocket vertical orientation
2)Cheek weld pressure (from none to squeezing the stock between the cheek and the off side of the soulder pocket).
3) Stock-to pocket pressure methods and degrees (applied with trigger hand, bipod, rear swivel stud, etc...)
4) changing between a front bag and a bipod
5) I forget what else... its been a long road.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Lowlight: You are the first to close in on answering the question (ie., not, "what am I doing wrong", but "does this behaviour indicate that something <span style="font-weight: bold">IS</span> wrong).

The figures that you give; 1", 6", 10"... would you relate these to 100 yards, or, as in the given scenario, 400 yards?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bow shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling shooter: though I feel that my establishment of NPOA is proper, I can be talked out of that. I've been scouring this site (fundamental of marksmanship, the bipod strings, etc.) and I'll say that I think I'm doing things "right", but that's with the rigity of the basic laws in mind, as well as the maverick stuff. Rather than regurgitate the material, I just describe what I actually do, LOL...

Concerning the .204 (I'll leave the 6.5 out for now) the rifle is resitng on the bipod, steered (windage) toward the bull as close as possible without any external forces applied the the 'pod or the rear. I lay down behind it with my body tilted off the centerline of the weapon about 15 degrees. This puts the stock not in the pocket, but on a little spot between my shoulder muscles and the outboard collar bone joint. I understand that this is not classic form, but I am unable to get predictable recoil reaction placing in "the pocket".

I have my cheek slightly in contact with the stock. There is neck tension required to have my head slightly erect (ie, I could not fall asleep in this orientation, but if I laid my head on the stock, I could). The bipod is slightly loaded (using the back arching method often discussed here) providing gentle stock-to-shoulder union pressure. My trigger hand is not in contact with the stock at all. It is only in contact with the tip of the trigger. The forearm of my aiming hand is close to flat on the grond, and my aiming hand is either in a fist, compressing the rear bag with my knuckles whil steering the rear swivel sling with my thumb, or it is squeesing the bag, and steering with wrist motion.

Again, I understand that this is not classic form, but it yields my most repeatable recoil reaction thus far, straight upward with the .204, the croshairs remaining within a few inchies of the bull, literally. But the upward displacement is what has me concerned.

I have (genuinely) spent over 900 shots to get what I hve so far. But I'm willing to be told I'm wrong.</div></div>

From your description, I'd say you're having a problem with commitment, and thus, consistency does not exist. Remember, there are three elements to a steady position: muscular relaxation (rest the full weight weight of your head on the stock), NPA, and bone/artificial support. Learn the prone position first using a sandbag support with non-firing hand placed between sandbag and forearm. This position allows for complete contact with gun and ground-elbows, stockweld, non-firing hand, butt-to-shoulder, and grip. From this sort of position you oan better come to understand when indeed the position is proper.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Maybe this, too?

Greg

 

[rero360]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I would also suggest heading down to Odessa for one of the monthly shoots, work permiting of course. There are alot of great guys there who can give you some hands on help, plus its just fun to hang out and shoot the shit with them.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

You come, you'll be welcome, we'll do whatever we can to help. 'S what we do...

It's a match, but the match is only a small part of what happens.

Greg

 

[j-huskey]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

You really seem to be describing free recoil off a bipod, no hands on the rifle at all (finger only on trigger), only shoulder pressure and very slight cheek pressure to hold the rifle in place.
Your description that you cannot go to sleep on the rifle in your shooting position is another inconsistency in that you will never give the same cheek pressure all the time.
This will consistently give the results you report.

As long as you are hitting consistently, quit worrying about the hop. You won't change that as long as you continue to use the holding method you describe above.

While this can be consistently accurate, it pretty much guarantees the hop you get.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Great input here. I'm on it.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

"So the number of issues it can be, beyond the shooter is just as big as anything else."

Understood, Lowlight, well put.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bow shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"So the number of issues it can be, beyond the shooter is just as big as anything else."

Understood, Lowlight, well put.</div></div>

I wouldn't say it that way, the shooter is still the determining factor. There are other factors that usually account for the smaller shifts, like the bipod legs being uneven, but this error will not produce as great an offset as the shooter can.

The first think you want to look at is yourself, if you feel you are doing everything correct, then you can look to other factors. Sometimes it takes learning a specific rifle to understand how it wants to recoil.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Understood. I am assuming from the start that the "anything else" is me, and that the problem is very most likely there. Equipment will be analyzed only after I'm content that I'm doing everything right (so to speak...). This is gonna take a long time.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

"Learn the prone position first using a sandbag support with non-firing hand placed between sandbag and forearm. This position allows for complete contact with gun and ground-elbows, stockweld, non-firing hand, butt-to-shoulder, and grip. From this sort of position you oan better come to understand when indeed the position is proper."


Sterling shooter: I will do this.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

"Maybe this, too?"

Greg Langelius: I will be investigating this also.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I have been attributed with developing this but I think that's unlikely; it's just too basic and obvious a technique. I have also been told that it is taught to military Designated Marksmen.

At first, it can seem awkward, but becomes far less so with practice. Oddly enough, I have been unable to employ this technique myself for several years following a broken arm and injured shoulder.

This technique takes nothing away from the need to establish and maintain a proper POA/NPOA. What it does is establish a means of making body response to recoil less extreme and more repeatable.

My own discovery of this technique was a direct response to the unique (and somewhat dubious, IMHO) rule added to the Carlos Hathcock Match that forbids communication between the shooter and any other personnel.

Accordingly, the shooter has to do their own spotting, which would be hard to do unless some way was developed to allow trace and other effects to be observed. This method of recoil management achieves this in at least some degree.

Greg

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

"This technique takes nothing away from the need to establish and maintain a proper POA/NPOA."

Understood.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Greg,
That is exactly what we do, teach the shooter to be straight behind the rifle and spot their own impacts as well as drive the rifle through recoil so they can stay on target and the rifle barely moves allowing the shooter to see the target through the entire recoil cycle.

It's discussed in the online training here as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I understand that, Frank, and there is no "but...".

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

The technique which Greg uses to maintain a consistent position until recoil subsides when using a bipod and hasty sling is one I first became familiar with a few years ago while assisting the AMU in their training of Soldiers participating in the SDM course at Ft. Benning. The technique was not part of the classroom, and, as I recall, it was not demonstrated on the range. It appeared as if it was simply assimilated by some of the shooters with, as I noticed, good results.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bow shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"So the number of issues it can be, beyond the shooter is just as big as anything else."

Understood, Lowlight, well put.</div></div>

You need to put on your thinking cap. Your rifle is perfect, your ammunition is perfect, so, when bullets go somewhere other than where aimed, it likely has something to do with your position not being maintained consistently. Taking one shot at a target and then moving on to something else, i.e. another single shot at another target/distance may not reveal just how important your perfection is to the matter. That's why shooting groups is indeed good practice. It allows you, from your shot calls, to better analyze/troubleshoot for the source of bullet displacement.

Perfecting consistency from shot to shot is where muscular relaxation will come to your aid. No doubt you can "drive" a gun though recoil, using muscular tension to maintain the position; however, with muscular tension there will always be enough inconsistency in the tension itself that it will thwart the best results.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Sterling, I'm practicing my unsupported prone with a sporter .22 and learning. No recoil to speak of, so I'm usually within 1" of the bull through the shot.

The .204 is a 12 lb muzzle-heavy varmint beast. should I be able to shot that one just like my son't bushmaster? I find that If I try to shoot that one unsupported/prone, it wags and sways with a lot of momentum on my non-tribgger arm. So for now, I've been keeping at that one with the bipod and a rear bag. Off the bipod and bags, pocket placement seems to be the one variable that I can control and yield predicatble results.

I'm down to about 12" off the bull at 350 yards with that one. Usually direcly north west of the bull. Pocket placement seems to be the key. I can usually tell wether the recoil will be NW or directly North before the boom.

I get a brief white-out in the scope rather than the black-out that I used to see during the shot, which I guess is smoke fom the shot?

Man, this takes a lot of shooting...

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Greg, you 'got a picture of the form that you describe? I gave it a whack over the weekend, and could not get near comfortable. 'Doing something wrong I assume.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

A revelation:

I think a component of my upward recoil is the contour of my stock, which is not flat on the bottom like that of a tactical or target stock. I'm thinking that as the shot matures, stock travels slightly rear-ward, riding the (rear) bag, and the taper causes a north (skyward) tip. Any comments on that?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bow shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"So the number of issues it can be, beyond the shooter is just as big as anything else."

Understood, Lowlight, well put.</div></div>

You need to put on your thinking cap. Your rifle is perfect, your ammunition is perfect, so, when bullets go somewhere other than where aimed, it likely has something to do with your position not being maintained consistently. Taking one shot at a target and then moving on to something else, i.e. another single shot at another target/distance may not reveal just how important your perfection is to the matter. That's why shooting groups is indeed good practice. It allows you, from your shot calls, to better analyze/troubleshoot for the source of bullet displacement.

Perfecting consistency from shot to shot is where muscular relaxation will come to your aid. No doubt you can "drive" a gun though recoil, using muscular tension to maintain the position; however, with muscular tension there will always be enough inconsistency in the tension itself that it will thwart the best results. </div></div>

In the prone you are not using muscular tension to drive the rifle, you are a relaxed slab of meat behind the rifle. However there are tricks to use your body and position behind the rifle to hold it in place. Recoil off a bipod is less than a 1/2" of movement directly to the rear as noted on video.

You use muscular tension in positions other than prone to drive the rifle, mainly when you are well off the ground.

Its the difference between understanding how different positions affect how you drive the rifle, especially in supported positions like prone with a bipod.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I don't do pictures well, and besides, I am trying hard not to hijack this thread or come across as argumentative with any of the other players. I fully subscribe to what they are saying, all I'm trying to do is add something small and supplemental.

Set up the sling the way I described, and then completely ignore it and get into your usual prone/bipod position with the non-trigger hand guiding the rifle's butt.

Now take the hand off, bring it out to the left, and then regrip the butt(or rear bag, whatever...) again, only this time, <span style="font-style: italic">pass it above the slack sling</span> before you grip the butt.

Relax into a normal prone/bipod position, exactly as LL describes..

If the sling is adjusted to the correct length, the elbow should be suspended by the sling just barely out of contact with the ground, but the upper body's weight on the sling should anchor the bipod into contact with the ground. To some degree, if the elbow is properly positioned directly over the sling, this forces the body to get aligned more directly behind the rifle, anyway; and this is a good thing with prone/bipod shooting.

It's a little different, but if it's very much so, I suspect the sling has too little slack.

Please let this be the end of this hijack.

Bag rider stocks are profiled with their bottom surfaces generally parallel to the bore axis. So a sloped bottom will definitely affect the bore's axial tilt during recoil.

But the portion of the recoil cycle that represents the brief transit of the bullet within the bore is actually only a brief segment at the very beginning. We are talking mere fractions of an inch of rearward rifle travel. The rest of the rearward motion is momentum, overtravel, and reaction to the bore gas pressure's release.

It may seem that were are introducing a serious upset, but because this happens with <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> recoil cycle, the cumulative effect is not the product of the entire upset, but rather the small differences that occur <span style="font-style: italic">between</span> the cycles. The more consistent the recoil cycle is, the less that difference will be.

This is one of the reasons why I like the McM A-Series Tactical stocks (and others) which incorporate the hand hook at the bottom rear. They allow the stock's rearmost lower bag riding portion to be configured more closely parallel with the bore axis.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Bow Shot,

Back up. The reason I suggested unsupported prone practice is that it requires full contact with you, the gun, and the ground. Muscular relaxation is paramount in such a position and thus will be evident when discovered. Once you understand it you can seek and find it from other positions, like with the bipod. You could actually back up even further and shoot from the bench with sandbag support if there are still issues with your sight alignment or trigger control.

Regarding the definition of the word drive, I do not use this word to describe anything about good shooting as it suggests an action requiring force, or work rather than a technique which it clearly is. Instead, I limit my shooting terms to those which are universally accepted in today's marksmanship lexicon such as presented in the USAMU's BRM and SDM marksmanship doctrine. Also, remember, muscular relaxation is an element of a steady position-any position: standing, sitting , kneeling, or prone. If the shooting scenerio does not allow for the position to be properly built for NPA, muscular relaxation and or bone/artificial support then results will not be as good as desired, the bullet will likely go somewhere other than where aimed.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Greg: understood, and thanks kindly for the reply especially detailing the sling involvement and your description of the infulence of butt stock design.

Lowlight and Sterling: also understood, thanks for the clarification.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

"The more consistent the recoil cycle is, the less that difference will be."

That's where I'm heading...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Sterling,

We have already determined how we shoot is not the same... so the terminology will vary.

As well because people are using bipods in what we do, they can effect the shot in a negative way. People have the wrong angles because the bipod is set at the wrong height, especially when set too high as a lot of people use the 9" to 13" model which is too high. as well they are part of the recoil cycle... so the advice to forgo the bipod and shoot off the sling defeats the purpose and the question.

Driving the rifle is what is necessary especially when moving from position to position -- as already discussed. It is a different animal than anything you are discussing. The muscular tension is only, and I mean only in the shooting arms bicep everything else is relaxed.

Not all of them are created equal, and do not have the same characteristics of a sling. It is important to understand these symptoms and causes so you can diagnose the problem. Continue to use the fall back... try a sling doesn't cut it. You wouldn't recommend going to iron sights to fix an eye relief problem so why recommend removing the bipod to fix a bipod issue.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I'm likely too high, I should mention that. I'm using a 9-13" harris that I usually have to dig a trench for (literally) before I spend trigger time.

My practical shooting is usually from varied (lousy) positions and postures as I hunt varmints. However, when testing loads I'll do it from a set of bags. I then migrate to the 'pod and work to replicate the accuracy there. Hence original question...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Gee -- its like I am psychic or something.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

I should also say that I'm not asking for advice ie., "what the heck am I doing wrong", but I'm enjoying and soaking in and meditating seriously on every kernal.

I realize that I should have a coach for this, and there is too much burden for anyone to figure it out from 1000' up.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling,

We have already determined how we shoot is not the same... so the terminology will vary.

As well because people are using bipods in what we do, they can effect the shot in a negative way. People have the wrong angles because the bipod is set at the wrong height, especially when set too high as a lot of people use the 9" to 13" model which is too high. as well they are part of the recoil cycle... so the advice to forgo the bipod and shoot off the sling defeats the purpose and the question.

Driving the rifle is what is necessary especially when moving from position to position -- as already discussed. It is a different animal than anything you are discussing. The muscular tension is only, and I mean only in the shooting arms bicep everything else is relaxed.

Not all of them are created equal, and do not have the same characteristics of a sling. It is important to understand these symptoms and causes so you can diagnose the problem. Continue to use the fall back... try a sling doesn't cut it. You wouldn't recommend going to iron sights to fix an eye relief problem so why recommend removing the bipod to fix a bipod issue. </div></div>

I did not mention using a sling-I'm talking about unsupported prone. It's a good place to start, as it intensifies the realization of having built the position properly. Regarding driving and muscular relaxation, as in context to shooting from a bipod, I do indeed understand it as you do; however, I also recognize that any muscular tension in arms and biceps, even as minimized by your description of it as "only", will still effect the outcome unless such tension can be applied consistently. Thing is, such consistency in the real world may be as meaningless as it is unachievable. I only bring up this stuff in consideration of someone who, learning how to shoot, perhaps has an interest in learning how to become most extraordinary with it all. What I see, and I'm sure you do to, are folks who start out with a scope and a bipod without any previous instruction in basic marksmanship. These folks have a very difficult time with any aspect of good shooting since their notion of good shooting is based on the flawed premise that the scope and bipod will assure recognition for where the gun is pointed.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Loading up another 200 rounds tonight. this is getting expensive. BUT IT SURE IS FUN!!!!!

I actually had a wood chuck wander in front of my target last week. I fed him a bad mushroom and now he has returned to the earth.... through the bowels of coons, skunks, possums...

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

FYI, for anyone that comes upon this thread in ages to come, I've reached a point of satisfaction on this issue with the small bore gun (.204 ruger). Here are the form changes that have contributed to good groups.

Also, note there that I am a varmint killer, not a pro marksman or Soldier.

1) I'm straight behind the rifle.
2) My trigger arm is positioned to create more "pocket" than I would naturelly have. To achieve this in a relaxed posture, I have to be careful to optomize my bipod height. I adjust the height so that I can have a slight shrug on that shoulder. The shrug puts my collar bone perpindicular to the butt plate, and allows that shoulder to resist horizontal movement of the stock.

Yield:
I can expect these things consistently:
1) Target remains in the scope throught the shot, no black out.
2) Deviation from the bull at 300y remains under 6".
3) Deviation from the bull is consistenetly vertical (up).
4) Much better groups

Learned:
1) Nothing is as valuable as trigger time.
2) Trigger time without constant shot-by-shot analysis is a waste of precious and expensive time.
3) I have to take notes every step of the way. Otherwise, memory and bad habits erase the small revelations and gains.
4) The small gains must be recognized, confirmed, recorded, and deliberately employed.
5) Listen to that little voice when it is telling you that you will NOT get away with it, when you are compromising an element of your form.

Hope this helps someone along the road...

I'm sure things will be different when I move over to the big rilfe (6.5x55)

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

'Spent some time w/ the 6.5x55, and the expectation is confirmed: I have to treat that rifle in a different manner than the .204. Though recoil is predicatble at this stage, it is more abrupt and exaggerated. But the basic form details that give me enough control to maintain predictable recoil remain vital.

I'll fill in the details if I get to a point where I'm content that I can stay on the bull (say w/i 6" @ 300y) through the shot without black-out. I see that this will take a LOT os trigger time though, so....

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bow shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">'Spent some time w/ the 6.5x55, and the expectation is confirmed: I have to treat that rifle in a different manner than the .204. Though recoil is predicatble at this stage, it is more abrupt and exaggerated. But the basic form details that give me enough control to maintain predictable recoil remain vital.

I'll fill in the details if I get to a point where I'm content that I can stay on the bull (say w/i 6" @ 300y) through the shot without black-out. I see that this will take a LOT os trigger time though, so....</div></div>

You should not treat any firearm differently; however, your expectations, or results could be peculiar to the firearm. Sights, fire control, and caliber will each effect the outcome. Just go into it knowing this, it's all about sight alignment and trigger control supported by a steady position, which must be controled consistently until recoil has subsided. Although the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, understanding where the barrel is pointed, as the bullet clears the bore, is easier with lower recoiing firearms.

 

[bowshot]

Re: POA, NPOA change after recoil: advice request

Understood>