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Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
- Thread starter Utah Shooter
- Start date
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I sometimes do one, or both, but, about the best I can shoot my rifles is about 1/2" at 200 yards, and it doesn't seem to matter.
Maybe if I was a good shooter, and was looking for tiny groups, I'd see the difference.
I sometimes do one, or both, but, about the best I can shoot my rifles is about 1/2" at 200 yards, and it doesn't seem to matter.
Maybe if I was a good shooter, and was looking for tiny groups, I'd see the difference.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
WHAT KIND OF A QUESTION IS THAT? You need to do both, but only once, and it's good for the life of the case.
And, the reply is also a jewel. I only wish I could shoot half inch groups at 200 yards. But, that's not tiny?
Are we being punked, or what?
WHAT KIND OF A QUESTION IS THAT? You need to do both, but only once, and it's good for the life of the case.
And, the reply is also a jewel. I only wish I could shoot half inch groups at 200 yards. But, that's not tiny?
Are we being punked, or what?
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
It's one of those little things that aids in lowering ES/SD, and it's a one time deal so I do it, but I also only shoot Winchester or Remington brass so it needs all the help I can give it.
It's one of those little things that aids in lowering ES/SD, and it's a one time deal so I do it, but I also only shoot Winchester or Remington brass so it needs all the help I can give it.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I've largely standardized on Lapua brass and for what it is worth I uniform the pockets and don't touch the flash holes since they seem good/clean right out of the box.
As far as being able to tell a difference as to how the rounds shoot I can't say that I have noticed anything at all. I can say though that primer seating is very smooth and consistent so from that perspective it's worth it to me.
I've largely standardized on Lapua brass and for what it is worth I uniform the pockets and don't touch the flash holes since they seem good/clean right out of the box.
As far as being able to tell a difference as to how the rounds shoot I can't say that I have noticed anything at all. I can say though that primer seating is very smooth and consistent so from that perspective it's worth it to me.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utah Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is one better than the other? I do both but just to keep from questioning shots. </div></div>
Do both if you are using Winchester or Remington brass.
It will help keep the people that make PP uniforming and FH Deburring tools off the unemployment line.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Utah Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is one better than the other? I do both but just to keep from questioning shots. </div></div>
Do both if you are using Winchester or Remington brass.
It will help keep the people that make PP uniforming and FH Deburring tools off the unemployment line.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
These THREE steps (inside & outside flash hole & PP uniforming) are very useful when you get down into the sub MOA area of loading. Above or around MOA you probably won't see it except for an occasional WTF?!? shot.
Personally when I was testing what worked and what didn't vs how much time and effort it took I found about a 30% increase in accuracy by chamfering both sides of the flash hole at 100 yards. In other words from consistent 3/4" groups to consistent 1/2 - 5/8" groups. Or less quantitatively: One Ratty Hole to One Ragged Hole.
At 300 yards it was the difference between a ~3" group to a 1-1/2 - 2" group.
IMHO it was one of the biggest gains found right after a consistent powder charge.
Cheers,
Doc
These THREE steps (inside & outside flash hole & PP uniforming) are very useful when you get down into the sub MOA area of loading. Above or around MOA you probably won't see it except for an occasional WTF?!? shot.
Personally when I was testing what worked and what didn't vs how much time and effort it took I found about a 30% increase in accuracy by chamfering both sides of the flash hole at 100 yards. In other words from consistent 3/4" groups to consistent 1/2 - 5/8" groups. Or less quantitatively: One Ratty Hole to One Ragged Hole.
At 300 yards it was the difference between a ~3" group to a 1-1/2 - 2" group.
IMHO it was one of the biggest gains found right after a consistent powder charge.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These THREE steps (inside & outside flash hole & PP uniforming) are very useful when you get down into the sub MOA area of loading. Above or around MOA you probably won't see it except for an occasional WTF?!? shot.
Personally when I was testing what worked and what didn't vs how much time and effort it took I found about a 30% increase in accuracy by chamfering both sides of the flash hole at 100 yards. In other words from consistent 3/4" groups to consistent 1/2 - 5/8" groups. Or less quantitatively: One Ratty Hole to One Ragged Hole.
At 300 yards it was the difference between a ~3" group to a 1-1/2 - 2" group.
IMHO it was one of the biggest gains found right after a consistent powder charge.
Cheers,
Doc </div></div>
Both sides of the flash hole? I've never seen that before. What is everyones consensus on this? Is it worth it? Does it weaken that part of the brass?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These THREE steps (inside & outside flash hole & PP uniforming) are very useful when you get down into the sub MOA area of loading. Above or around MOA you probably won't see it except for an occasional WTF?!? shot.
Personally when I was testing what worked and what didn't vs how much time and effort it took I found about a 30% increase in accuracy by chamfering both sides of the flash hole at 100 yards. In other words from consistent 3/4" groups to consistent 1/2 - 5/8" groups. Or less quantitatively: One Ratty Hole to One Ragged Hole.
At 300 yards it was the difference between a ~3" group to a 1-1/2 - 2" group.
IMHO it was one of the biggest gains found right after a consistent powder charge.
Cheers,
Doc </div></div>
Both sides of the flash hole? I've never seen that before. What is everyones consensus on this? Is it worth it? Does it weaken that part of the brass?
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I always de-burr the inside of my hornady once fired cases. I look at clean uniform cases as if it were a cylinder in a motor....the cleaner and consistent the spark, the cleaner the burn/combustion. To each his own but its not a bad habit to pick up when reloading
I always de-burr the inside of my hornady once fired cases. I look at clean uniform cases as if it were a cylinder in a motor....the cleaner and consistent the spark, the cleaner the burn/combustion. To each his own but its not a bad habit to pick up when reloading
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I just do it because it does not take much time to do (when you are watching tv anyways). I do not have to second guess it either if I do them.
I just do it because it does not take much time to do (when you are watching tv anyways). I do not have to second guess it either if I do them.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
How much do you chamfer the outside of the flash hole? Just a touch or a noticeable bevel?
How much do you chamfer the outside of the flash hole? Just a touch or a noticeable bevel?
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I copied and pasted this sentence from the article called (Secrets of the old Houston warehouse).<span style="color: #000099">Flash holes were cut identically and chamfered inside, but he (Virgil) didn’t uniform primer pockets or turn the case bases.</span>If anybody knew what encompassed ultimate accuracy Virgil would as he could shoot consistently in the 0's at 100Y.
When I read this statement years ago I never uniformed a primer pocket again. I do ream the flash holes and chamfer them though.
Here's the article. Great read!
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
I copied and pasted this sentence from the article called (Secrets of the old Houston warehouse).<span style="color: #000099">Flash holes were cut identically and chamfered inside, but he (Virgil) didn’t uniform primer pockets or turn the case bases.</span>If anybody knew what encompassed ultimate accuracy Virgil would as he could shoot consistently in the 0's at 100Y.
When I read this statement years ago I never uniformed a primer pocket again. I do ream the flash holes and chamfer them though.
Here's the article. Great read!
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please?
Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please?
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please? </div></div>
It's now a little easier to see how you've managed to accumulate 374 posts already and only been here ~ 4 months. Your type is better tolerated in the Maggie's Drawers section or the Bear Pit. We'd all be greatful if you didn't bless us any further with your great wisdom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please? </div></div>
It's now a little easier to see how you've managed to accumulate 374 posts already and only been here ~ 4 months. Your type is better tolerated in the Maggie's Drawers section or the Bear Pit. We'd all be greatful if you didn't bless us any further with your great wisdom.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please? </div></div>
It's now a little easier to see how you've managed to accumulate 374 posts already and only been here ~ 4 months. Your type is better tolerated in the Maggie's Drawers section or the Bear Pit. We'd all be greatful if you didn't bless us any further with your great wisdom. </div></div>
WOW. I have been here since August 2010. I can learn one of two things I guess. Make good comments count or visit Maggie's Drawers. Very funny.
How does he know about, "another Sniper's Hide trend"? Are they every other day or something?
Thanks for the comments guys. I only wanted some opinions and some good reads about the question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please? </div></div>
It's now a little easier to see how you've managed to accumulate 374 posts already and only been here ~ 4 months. Your type is better tolerated in the Maggie's Drawers section or the Bear Pit. We'd all be greatful if you didn't bless us any further with your great wisdom. </div></div>
WOW. I have been here since August 2010. I can learn one of two things I guess. Make good comments count or visit Maggie's Drawers. Very funny.
How does he know about, "another Sniper's Hide trend"? Are they every other day or something?
Thanks for the comments guys. I only wanted some opinions and some good reads about the question.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These THREE steps (inside & outside flash hole & PP uniforming) are very useful when you get down into the sub MOA area of loading. Above or around MOA you probably won't see it except for an occasional WTF?!? shot.
Personally when I was testing what worked and what didn't vs how much time and effort it took I found about a 30% increase in accuracy by chamfering both sides of the flash hole at 100 yards. In other words from consistent 3/4" groups to consistent 1/2 - 5/8" groups. Or less quantitatively: One Ratty Hole to One Ragged Hole.
At 300 yards it was the difference between a ~3" group to a 1-1/2 - 2" group.
IMHO it was one of the biggest gains found right after a consistent powder charge.
Cheers,
Doc </div></div>
Both sides of the flash hole? I've never seen that before. What is everyones consensus on this? Is it worth it? Does it weaken that part of the brass? </div></div>
Read about it in the Sticky above from Doc in Reloading 101
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These THREE steps (inside & outside flash hole & PP uniforming) are very useful when you get down into the sub MOA area of loading. Above or around MOA you probably won't see it except for an occasional WTF?!? shot.
Personally when I was testing what worked and what didn't vs how much time and effort it took I found about a 30% increase in accuracy by chamfering both sides of the flash hole at 100 yards. In other words from consistent 3/4" groups to consistent 1/2 - 5/8" groups. Or less quantitatively: One Ratty Hole to One Ragged Hole.
At 300 yards it was the difference between a ~3" group to a 1-1/2 - 2" group.
IMHO it was one of the biggest gains found right after a consistent powder charge.
Cheers,
Doc </div></div>
Both sides of the flash hole? I've never seen that before. What is everyones consensus on this? Is it worth it? Does it weaken that part of the brass? </div></div>
Read about it in the Sticky above from Doc in Reloading 101
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WHAT KIND OF A QUESTION IS THAT? You need to do both, but only once, and it's good for the life of the case.
And, the reply is also a jewel. I only wish I could shoot half inch groups at 200 yards. But, that's not tiny?
Are we being punked, or what?</div></div>
I uniformed the primer pocket in my lapua .308. 5 firings later I decided to try it again after full length re-sizing. I notice some brass filings and a shiny new pocket. I agree that once should be enough but in this case the shape changed and I was able to remove material. Did it help my groups? I have no idea.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WHAT KIND OF A QUESTION IS THAT? You need to do both, but only once, and it's good for the life of the case.
And, the reply is also a jewel. I only wish I could shoot half inch groups at 200 yards. But, that's not tiny?
Are we being punked, or what?</div></div>
I uniformed the primer pocket in my lapua .308. 5 firings later I decided to try it again after full length re-sizing. I notice some brass filings and a shiny new pocket. I agree that once should be enough but in this case the shape changed and I was able to remove material. Did it help my groups? I have no idea.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I deburr flashholes on my .308 brass. No quantitative data to support it, but its easy, the tool's cheap, its something to occupy my hands while numbing my brain in front of the tv, and it might make a positive difference, doubt it coud make a negative one. If I start doing my AR plinking brass I'd be forced to say I need another hobby.
I deburr flashholes on my .308 brass. No quantitative data to support it, but its easy, the tool's cheap, its something to occupy my hands while numbing my brain in front of the tv, and it might make a positive difference, doubt it coud make a negative one. If I start doing my AR plinking brass I'd be forced to say I need another hobby.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please? </div></div>
Perhaps new to you, but Sinlcair has been selling the tools to do this right for over 10 years. If you are shooting Remington brass you can expect a measurable reduction in the number of fliers seen. One look inside a ratty punched case and you will see why. We don't really chamfer so much as debur the inside of the flash hole.
Winchester brass will show less improvement than Remington while working over Lapua brass one should expect no accuracy return on his time and efforts.
YMMV
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh brother! Now we have another Sniper's Hide trend! By the day after tomorrow, the word will have been spread and everybody will be doing it: an essential procedure guaranteed to reduce groups by 50%. Now, why didn't I ever think of it? Talk to ya later...in the meantime, I will be pulling bullets, dumping powder and punching primers to get at that little gem. But wait! Let's keep this just between us, okay? No sense everybody finding out, at least until we win a couple matches. <shush> Please? </div></div>
Perhaps new to you, but Sinlcair has been selling the tools to do this right for over 10 years. If you are shooting Remington brass you can expect a measurable reduction in the number of fliers seen. One look inside a ratty punched case and you will see why. We don't really chamfer so much as debur the inside of the flash hole.
Winchester brass will show less improvement than Remington while working over Lapua brass one should expect no accuracy return on his time and efforts.
YMMV
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
Not new to me by any means. I always chamfer the primer pocket inside, and started more than ten years ago, so that's hardly revolutionary. It's chamfering the pocket <span style="text-decoration: underline">on both sides</span> that never occurred to me before? The flash hole is already "uniformed" by the chamfering operation from the inside.
I am a bit skeptical about the actual benefit, (both sides) so that is the reason for my so called "humor" which pisses some people off, apparently? I hope he get's over it without going postal on us and shooting up a McDonald's. It will be my fault, no doubt?
BB
Not new to me by any means. I always chamfer the primer pocket inside, and started more than ten years ago, so that's hardly revolutionary. It's chamfering the pocket <span style="text-decoration: underline">on both sides</span> that never occurred to me before? The flash hole is already "uniformed" by the chamfering operation from the inside.
I am a bit skeptical about the actual benefit, (both sides) so that is the reason for my so called "humor" which pisses some people off, apparently? I hope he get's over it without going postal on us and shooting up a McDonald's. It will be my fault, no doubt?
BB
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
LOL. Saying the same thing Buzz....Terminology I guess.
I uniform and chamfer the flash hole from the inside....no doubt like you describe.
I cut the pocket for depth, but do not in any way flare chamfer or dick with the flash hole from the outside.
If you are talking about touching the flash hole from the primer side that changes everything....And I think you are right to be wary. Alter the flash hole and and alter the way the primer, case, and powder work together.
I will have to hook up my pressure tester and dick with a case, but I guarantee I get a pressure spike out of a chamfer on the primer side.
LOL. Saying the same thing Buzz....Terminology I guess.
I uniform and chamfer the flash hole from the inside....no doubt like you describe.
I cut the pocket for depth, but do not in any way flare chamfer or dick with the flash hole from the outside.
If you are talking about touching the flash hole from the primer side that changes everything....And I think you are right to be wary. Alter the flash hole and and alter the way the primer, case, and powder work together.
I will have to hook up my pressure tester and dick with a case, but I guarantee I get a pressure spike out of a chamfer on the primer side.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I have done one, both and none. Depends on the brass I use and the type of shooting. I generally don't do it at all because I buy brass in relation to what I will be doing. I don't touch Nosler and Lapua brass I have never seen any need or appreciable gains. I do have some LC 30-06 to be pulled down, and I will likely deburr inside flash hole and may uniform pockets, as this will be used in my precision rifle.
I have done one, both and none. Depends on the brass I use and the type of shooting. I generally don't do it at all because I buy brass in relation to what I will be doing. I don't touch Nosler and Lapua brass I have never seen any need or appreciable gains. I do have some LC 30-06 to be pulled down, and I will likely deburr inside flash hole and may uniform pockets, as this will be used in my precision rifle.
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
I had a lot of Lapua 223 cases last year that needed, as in "required" the primer pockets to be uniformed or the primers would not seat flush. They all had what I could describe as a fillet radius on the bottom of the pocket, or maybe the sides were slightly tapered? The force to seat a primer would have been excessive; the force required to use the uniformer tool was damned near excessive. Other than that, I didn't see anything different about those cases.....except, I should have measured the capacity because my final load of Varget was quite a bit less than I expected, a little hard to figure since I fireformed them in my Ackley chamber? It's possible that brass is quite beefy and might last a long time? But, I don't know and am not real clear as to how they are made, in the first place. BB
I had a lot of Lapua 223 cases last year that needed, as in "required" the primer pockets to be uniformed or the primers would not seat flush. They all had what I could describe as a fillet radius on the bottom of the pocket, or maybe the sides were slightly tapered? The force to seat a primer would have been excessive; the force required to use the uniformer tool was damned near excessive. Other than that, I didn't see anything different about those cases.....except, I should have measured the capacity because my final load of Varget was quite a bit less than I expected, a little hard to figure since I fireformed them in my Ackley chamber? It's possible that brass is quite beefy and might last a long time? But, I don't know and am not real clear as to how they are made, in the first place. BB
Re: Pocket Uniforming or Flash Hole?
Ya Buzz, you will find the Lapua almost lasts indefinitely.
Section one and you can see how much thicker the web section is...though that portion does vary from caliber to caliber..Seemingly by design. I do know over the years Lapua has changed what they are doing on the 223 brass a few times...Perfecting the design? I don't know.
Case weight I don't pay much attention to, but the few times I have checked case capacity (by cc measurement) is almost always less with Lapua than any other brand. Your improved chamber should more than negate the reduced capacity...Do you have some of the older small flash hole brass?
Though I can't confirm this the brass itself does seem much tougher, or at least harder.
I have yet to have a Lapua batch that I couldn't seat a primer like I have heard so much about...I do have new unopened batch of 223...Maybe it's my turn now!
Ya Buzz, you will find the Lapua almost lasts indefinitely.
Section one and you can see how much thicker the web section is...though that portion does vary from caliber to caliber..Seemingly by design. I do know over the years Lapua has changed what they are doing on the 223 brass a few times...Perfecting the design? I don't know.
Case weight I don't pay much attention to, but the few times I have checked case capacity (by cc measurement) is almost always less with Lapua than any other brand. Your improved chamber should more than negate the reduced capacity...Do you have some of the older small flash hole brass?
Though I can't confirm this the brass itself does seem much tougher, or at least harder.
I have yet to have a Lapua batch that I couldn't seat a primer like I have heard so much about...I do have new unopened batch of 223...Maybe it's my turn now!
