POF .308 vs. GAP-10

Oregonlaw76

Oregonlaw76

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Minuteman
Oct 9, 2009
15
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48
Portland, Oregon
#1
Okay,

I had just spent ridiculous amounts of time reading, researching to decide between POF, Noveske and LaRue for a new .308 SA and decided on the POF. Then I saw the thread in this section on the GAP-10 GA Precision built on the POF receiver but a DI system. Question for anyone who has experience with that gun (I know it just came out), can I expect about the same accuracy and reliability between the two, or would one have a clear advantage over the other specifically in those two categories? Thanks in advance.
 
#2
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

My POF is very accurate, just at 1/2 minute of accuracy consistently out of it with Factory ammo... my GAP10 is insanely accurate, below 3/8th of a Minute with the same factory ammo.

Reliability and function appears to be the same with both. The GAP 10 falling a bit more on the custom side so you can spec how you like, my POF is a standard 14.5" version.
 
#3
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I have zero experience with the GAP10 however I have two of the other rifles that you mentioned. With this being said, my POF is a consistant sub 3/4 MOA shooter and my LaRue OBR is a consistant 1/2 MOA shooter. I have yet to have a failure in either system. They are both excellent weapons.
 
#4
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oregonlaw76</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay,

I had just spent ridiculous amounts of time reading, researching to decide between POF, Noveske and LaRue for a new .308 SA and decided on the POF. Then I saw the thread in this section on the GAP-10 GA Precision built on the POF receiver but a DI system. Question for anyone who has experience with that gun (I know it just came out), can I expect about the same accuracy and reliability between the two, or would one have a clear advantage over the other specifically in those two categories? Thanks in advance. </div></div>

PM sent.
 
#5
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

Lowlight, assuming your GAP has a different length of barrel than your POF, do you think the accuracy of the two would be closer if both had the same barrel length?
 
#6
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

No, I don't think the barrel lengths matter, I have a similar GAP Eagle 10 with a 16" barrel which is a hammer, all the way out to 800, when the barrels are good, the length is secondary. The GAP10 is 18" so not like I am comparing it to a 22" or something.
 
#7
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I built one on a budget using a fulton armory barrel and it's proving to be pretty consistent at 3/4MOA. If I had the money I would go GAP or POF just because their barrels seem to be better than what a lot of their competitors use accuracy/velocity wise.
 
#10
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nevada Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gap 10 all the way,Pof has to many company problems right now,so I would avoid them right now, I am not saying they are bad at all....</div></div>

I'm not trying to be a dick but the OP was asking about differences in accuracy between the GAP 10 and the POF. He wasn't asking for opinions on the business model or issues of either company.

If you have any experience with either platform, your findings would be useful.
 
#11
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nevada Hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gap 10 all the way,Pof has to many company problems right now,so I would avoid them right now, I am not saying they are bad at all.... </div></div>

Company "problems" as in what??? I would love to hear the scoop on this........

MY experiance with their customer service has been nothing less than awesome.
 
#12
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I have had zero issues with POF. The customer service has been top shelf. All contacts were answered promptly, all parts ordered shipped quickly. I would hesitate to say that they have any issues.
 
#14
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

My POF is the 14.5" and I have had consistent 3/4" MOA with it as well. I have shot it out to 800 yds well on steel. I had a small hiccup with it when I first bought it. POF paid shipping to fix and I had it back in about a week! I have always been very impressed with them as a company.
 
#15
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

POF's company issues were with one of their suppliers. Problem solved. I have a few POF's and they are outstanding firearms with good accuracy and reliability. Im sure the GAP is also good.
 
#17
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I went with the GAP because I was able to specify exactly what I wanted, but have to wait 60 days to get it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a POF though, and will probably pick up a second upper (14.5") from them at some point.

My reccomendation: If you don't mind the wait get a GAP built to your specs, if don't want to wait find a POF for sale online and buy it.
 
#18
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I can get 3/4 MOA at 850 pretty routinely with my GAP10. Up close is easily shoots sub-1/2. As for POF...they make the upper and lower for the GAP10 so they're surely doing something right. I'd own one.
 
#19
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I have a question for scar owners and possible POF owners as well. I am looking into getting a scar 17 for my self but the only downside to it seems to be the mags and availability of parts, my next option is a POF recon in all black about 500 dollars cheaper. Now ive read a lot of mixed feelings from POF owners and would like to find out if the Jam issues still continue and if the POF or the scar are worth it ? I usually go to the range and shoot, not a weekend warrior or couch commando either but would like to keep a gun that is easy to maintain and also fun to shoot and reliable( most important). Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Also my wife would be shooting this gun too she likes both the scar and the POF. I will be shooting mostly PMC rounds through my gun and Hornady tap. Also I do have fairly good experience with Piston guns
 
#20
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: haris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question for scar owners and possible POF owners as well. I am looking into getting a scar 17 for my self but the only downside to it seems to be the mags and availability of parts, my next option is a POF recon in all black about 500 dollars cheaper. Now ive read a lot of mixed feelings from POF owners and would like to find out if the Jam issues still continue and if the POF or the scar are worth it ? I usually go to the range and shoot, not a weekend warrior or couch commando either but would like to keep a gun that is easy to maintain and also fun to shoot and reliable( most important). Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Also my wife would be shooting this gun too she likes both the scar and the POF. I will be shooting mostly PMC rounds through my gun and Hornady tap. Also I do have fairly good experience with Piston guns
</div></div>

Having handled and fired a SCAR-17 and owning a POF P308, my vote is for the POF. I just didn't care much at all for the SCAR. The fit and finish of the POF is nothing short of perfect and you'll find the accuracy is sub moa everytime providing the shooter is doing their part.

In response to your question about jamming, I've not had any issues except for a single time at the range when I tried out some crap ammo which was Wolf and Bear. I'd stay away from those as well as Tula and Monarch.
 
#22
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

Like lowlight said the GAP-10 is a 3/8 moa gun all day ! I could send you a picture of a 10 shot group at 100 yards a little smaller than a dime ! That's only because I kinda rapid fired the last 5 shots . So my vote is GAP !!!!!!
 
#25
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you guy's like the single stage trigger on the Gap? I am going to order on and am debating sending them a geissele trigger.</div></div>

That's what I did, and I really like it.
 
#27
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't go wrong with a Geissele SSA-E trigger. </div></div>

Killshot, am I assuming correctly that I would need the SSA-E large pin?
 
#28
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't go wrong with a Geissele SSA-E trigger. </div></div>

Killshot, am I assuming correctly that I would need the SSA-E large pin? </div></div>

Negative. You need the SMALL PIN.
 
#30
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My POF is very accurate, just at 1/2 minute of accuracy consistently out of it with Factory ammo... my GAP10 is insanely accurate, below 3/8th of a Minute with the same factory ammo.

Reliability and function appears to be the same with both. The GAP 10 falling a bit more on the custom side so you can spec how you like, my POF is a standard 14.5" version. </div></div>

Frank,

If I were sending you a rifle, I'de make damn sure it shot under .5moa as well! You're salesmanship is second only to Obama!

As for averages... I'm not aware of any 308 auto-loading manufacturer putting out consistently sub-.75 MOA rifles.
 
#31
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My POF is very accurate, just at 1/2 minute of accuracy consistently out of it with Factory ammo... my GAP10 is insanely accurate, below 3/8th of a Minute with the same factory ammo.

Reliability and function appears to be the same with both. The GAP 10 falling a bit more on the custom side so you can spec how you like, my POF is a standard 14.5" version. </div></div>

Frank,

If I were sending you a rifle, I'de make damn sure it shot under .5moa as well! You're salesmanship is second only to Obama!

As for averages... I'm not aware of any 308 auto-loading manufacturer putting out consistently sub-.75 MOA rifles.
</div></div>

Not to sound like a fanboy. But.......if I could sneak out what 10 or 20 GAP10s....I'm willing to bet they'll shoot sub .75 moa consistently.

I honestly don't get why people think consistent sub .75 gas guns aren't possible. I remember George making the comment(and honestly it would probably apply to yours as well FD) that the majority of the custom shop gassers will shoot that good. The problem is most shooters who aren't gifted with gas guns or shoot them religiously aren't capable of driving them to that possibility.
 
#32
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

WTF, Hall?!?!!?

Was there some need aside from furthering your own personal agenda with the F&D rifles that you felt compelled to bring up a thread that's been dead as a doornail for well over a year and to call out LL as a "salesman"?!?!?!

Based on a quick read through nearly EVERY post you've made since becoming a member here in the last few years (all 23 posts)...I'd say the word "salesman" clearly applies but more to yourself than others given that nearly every post you've made has been aimed at furthering your own agenda and that of promoting F&D's wares.
 
#33
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I have 3 POF rifles. One in 5.56 P415 16", one in 6.8SPCII 14.5"and last 7.62 20" the P308 you are looking at. All rifles are complete POF factory built and have not been modified in anyway other than an ambi trigger safeties from BAD. Thousands of rounds down range.

I have had 1 issue with my P308 being that on or about the 3rd round the spent case would stove pipe and jam. It would actually flip the cartridge 180 degrees in side the chamber and as the bolt cycled forward, it would cram the spent case forward while picking up a new round. This would continue to happen with whatever ammo, magazine, or rate of fire, no easy field fix. This would happen prone, standing, or kneeling. Bipod use or not every type of ammo. I am using Magpul PRS stock with the correct vent screw in the rear of the stock, Geissele SSA trigger. I was running without suppressor because Im in the wonderful state of California, so gas block was always in "N" position.

So what was happening? Lots of time on the net chasing down ideas and fixes to possible problems.So, I emailed POF with pictures of what was happening. Cody DeSomma emailed back the same day stating "You paid a lot for your rifle, and we will make it run for you at no charge." I shipped the upper to them that afternoon. It was fixed, test fired and returned in a POF hard case within 2days. They are in Az and I am in California. Pretty quick turn around time and not a penny out of pocket for me. The problem turned out to be a timing issue and that the bolt was cycling too fast. Simple fix on their end. Not a problem since with 200 rounds down range.

With all that said, the one and only problem I have had with 3 different POF rifles was a simple fix on their part, and it was handled quickly with no hassle whatsoever.

I know others have had problems in the past with POF, but they were right by me. As far as GAP, that is next on the short list of what to buy next, so I can't speak for them. I know lots of guys love theirs, and they seem to be fantastic guns.

All said, you cant go wrong with either so buy both.
 
#34
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My POF is very accurate, just at 1/2 minute of accuracy consistently out of it with Factory ammo... my GAP10 is insanely accurate, below 3/8th of a Minute with the same factory ammo.

Reliability and function appears to be the same with both. The GAP 10 falling a bit more on the custom side so you can spec how you like, my POF is a standard 14.5" version. </div></div>

Frank,

If I were sending you a rifle, I'de make damn sure it shot under .5moa as well! You're salesmanship is second only to Obama!

As for averages... I'm not aware of any 308 auto-loading manufacturer putting out consistently sub-.75 MOA rifles.
</div></div>

If that's what you believe, you truly are a dumb ass. You need to quit bringing up old threads just to stir shit. Your a perfect example of how any one with money to blow can be a vendor. No intelligence required.
 
#35
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF, Hall?!?!!?

Was there some need aside from furthering your own personal agenda with the F&D rifles that you felt compelled to bring up a thread that's been dead as a doornail for well over a year and to call out LL as a "salesman"?!?!?!

Based on a quick read through nearly EVERY post you've made since becoming a member here in the last few years (all 23 posts)...I'd say the word "salesman" clearly applies but more to yourself than others given that nearly every post you've made has been aimed at furthering your own agenda and that of promoting F&D's wares. </div></div>

Brother, I'm a paying industry member here, I have the right to further my "agenda" even though I rarely do. It wasn't a insult to lowlight at all, in fact it was a compliment in that manufacturers respect his reputation.

Sadly, the statement is revealing of the fact that manufacturers make sure that important people get good shooting rifles. It happens across the board, no exceptions.

(Industry secret - Spoiler alert!) The manufacturer will not put as much attention into your rifle as he does for someone he knows is going to further his own "agenda".

I wish I could spend time with each rifle to weed out any poor shooters and further separate exceptional from average, but I cant, it's not possible. See "bell curve" on manufacturing statistics. I have pulled a few rifles that shoot very well (under .3moa) and I have pulled a few that shoot poorly at 1.5moa. On evaluating averages, the FD308 is a .75-1.0moa rifle; with continuing research and development will narrow the bell curve and reduce outliers. If manufacturers are not conscious of these facts and also take continuing action on them, then this manufacturer is not worth putting stock in.

With that said, it appears GA are the only ones doing barrels right in regards to auto-loaders. This makes the bell-curve narrower with fewer outliers, and tends to shift the average left of center. Which is how I am now setting up my barrel manufacturing processes. However, I still am not foolish enough to expect the top of the bell curve to shift much left of .75moa.
 
#36
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

No one has a problem with you pushing your products. The problem is when you misrepresent another companies performances to push your products.
I have a 308 gasser that WILL do below. 75 consistently. I personally have been behind KillShots POF and it IS a sub .75 MOA rifle. If your rifles hold. 75-1 MOA, thats fine. But don't blatantly misrepresent your competitors rifles for your personal gain.
 
#37
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I have both POF and GAP-10. No comparison, hands down GAP-10. My POF had major issue with malfunctions and had to send it back multiple times, the fit is loose, etc. My GAP-10 has been more accurate and without problems from the 1st round.
 
#38
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

Lmao... There seems to be no limit to his fucking stupidty. First he tries to compare himself to Noveske in both the level of acomplishment and stature, and now this...

George is above it when it comes to shit talkin another smith. I am not... Hall you're just a bad as Mark Larue and you really are drunk off your own ego. Again you can barely stand in their shadows none the less fill their shoes... And one more thing... Your side charger is gay...
 
#39
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I have owned 4 POF 308's and none of them were even close to the accuracy of the gap10 that i shot next to in a Rifles Only class.
I know there are some nice shooting Pof's out there, but honestly my LMT was more accurate. I would vote Gap10 since its custom work
 
#40
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

As others have said, you can't go wrong with either a POF or a GAP-10 but you should expect a wait, regardless of which you choose.

The GAP will have slightly better accuracy but seriously, when you're talking about 1/8 of an inch, does it really matter? VERY few shooters can consistently drive a precision semi-auto 'all day long' and achieve half moa groups.

The GAP-10 is an awesome rifle, no doubt about it, but I couldn't give up my POF to have one so...I may have to pick one up when the wait time drops below 1-2yrs. LoL
 
#41
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As others have said, you can't go wrong with either a POF or a GAP-10 but you should expect a wait, regardless of which you choose.

The GAP will have slightly better accuracy but seriously, when you're talking about 1/8 of an inch, does it really matter? VERY few shooters can consistently drive a precision semi-auto 'all day long' and achieve half moa groups.

The GAP-10 is an awesome rifle, no doubt about it, but I couldn't give up my POF to have one so...I may have to pick one up when the wait time drops below 1-2yrs. LoL</div></div>

I'm definitely not one of those few shooters lol
 
#42
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

C Hall R U crazy, my JP LRP-07 will outshoot or stay with any Semi-Auto on the market including your F&D. So do not say that GA are the only ones doing it right.
 
#43
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I can say for certain that in addition to GA doing barrels right, JP Enterprises does as well. I have an LRP-07 in .308. I consistently shoot .5-1 MOA with FGMM 168's. As far as my shooting ability, I am a novice on a good day. I can only imagine what it can do with a real shooter behind it and some properly rolled hand loads.

Aside from that, the rifle is an absolute work of art. I had the upper duracoated and had the presentation grade finish on it. Every time I go to the range people always come over and drool.
 
#44
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

Direct from Corky's mouth when comparing his rifles to Noveske...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have completely different business models... one is mass production, one is hand-crafted; both are successful by the same measure. </div></div>

So, Noveske was simply a "mass production" while his is "hand-crafted".
 
#45
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Direct from Corky's mouth when comparing his rifles to Noveske...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have completely different business models... one is mass production, one is hand-crafted; both are successful by the same measure. </div></div>

So, Noveske was simply a "mass production" while his is "hand-crafted".

</div></div>

John was a guy full of character, accomplishment, and success in his own style, which is not mine. However, the above quote from myself remains true. There is no other company in the industry making autoloaders the way I make them, where I designed the entire rifle and I machine just about every component on the rifles myself. I don't sub anything out, and I stand over the machines myself and I assemble them myself. Noveske does little to no machining of their components. It is an assembly shop, much like Larue and others. I have complete control over my designs, quality of processes, and how I choose to manufacture and improve my products. Others are greatly limited in this ability while they do not explicitly control manufacturing.

In that manner, I certainly stand apart from all manufacturers. Not to mention several inventions and the development of new platforms.

I have not put any other manufacturer "down" as you have suggested. Additionally, your empty insults have no purpose to further the legitimacy of this forum.

If you have a consistently sub .75moa rifle then do the shootout challenge and post your results. And if you bothered to read and understand my above post, I referred to the bell curve... You obviously do not understand what that means; in no way did I say that there does not exist an auto-loader that is not consistently sub .75moa, they do exist. I said that *on averages* (that refers to a production quantity of rifles from the same manufacturer), the top of the bell-curve will not be below .75moa; a few rifles will be left of and a few rifles will be right of the median. GA's bell curve median stands on the .75moa marker, granted... that is based on the handful of rifles I have seen reports on.

The primary purpose of why I am even entertaining this topic, is to explain why customers can (and often do) get significant accuracy results when comparing two of the same rifles from the same manufacturer. Explains that while one GAP-10 couldn't get under 1", another gets under .5". It is foolish to expect every rifle from a manufacturer to shoot the same as the next.

I bring technical and informational discussion to the table, and do my best in attempting to answer common questions within this community. While you only attempt to bash, denigrate, and insult your way into a position of authority over a topic. With that said, you should be banned from the forum for violating policy.
 
#46
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bring technical and informational discussion to the table, and do my best in attempting to answer common questions within this community. While you only attempt to bash, denigrate, and insult your way into a position of authority over a topic. With that said, you should be banned from the forum for violating policy. </div></div>

Lol... You bring your elitist attitude with your nose stuck so far up in the air the FAA wants to regulate it. There's no "technical" data there and you didn't contribute anything other than your opinion of what other manufacturers do compared to what you do. And where do I attempt to have any kind of "authority"? And hypocrite... You're not one to talk about bashing and insulting. By the way... The notify button is below if you feel so inclined.

Add: Who was it that revived a thread literally over a year old just to rebuke companies claims to making sub-moa guns and literally compared Frank to Obama in Salesmanship? Of course you meant nothing but the truest compliment in that after the fact...
 
#47
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way... The notify button is below if you feel so inclined.</div></div>

That's IT...I'm tellin'...


file.php
 
#48
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10

I'm pretty sure Larue makes the handguards, Upper/Lower Receiver, buffer tube, spring, grips, buttstock, BCG in house for the OBRs at least. The FCG and barrels are the only thing they "sub" out to my knowledge.

So your going to tell me you make every last part down to the FCG in your rifles?
 
#49
Re: POF .308 vs. GAP-10


To F&D Defense, and all other manufacturers with side charging upper receivers, you're heading in the right direction. I have no idea why the rest of the manufactures are not going this route when building precision AR style rifles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fd-defense</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you have a consistently sub .75moa rifle then do the shootout challenge and post your results. And if you bothered to read and understand my above post, I referred to the bell curve... You obviously do not understand what that means; in no way did I say that there does not exist an auto-loader that is not consistently sub .75moa, they do exist. I said that *on averages* (that refers to a production quantity of rifles from the same manufacturer), the top of the bell-curve will not be below .75moa; a few rifles will be left of and a few rifles will be right of the median. GA's bell curve median stands on the .75moa marker, granted... that is based on the handful of rifles I have seen reports on.

The primary purpose of why I am even entertaining this topic, is to explain why customers can (and often do) get significant accuracy results when comparing two of the same rifles from the same manufacturer. Explains that while one GAP-10 couldn't get under 1", another gets under .5". It is foolish to expect every rifle from a manufacturer to shoot the same as the next.
</div></div>

You also need to keep in mind, the population size being sampled. A bell curve measuring 100 rifles will be different than a sample of 1,000.
 
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