POF, BCM, or Daniel Defense?

[scharfschutze762]

Oh so you're an expert on piston systems and HK now ?
FN,LWRC,LMT, HK,Geissele, KAC, Barrett and a few others spend an enormous amount of money having their weapons mil spec tested. Ive seen all these companies produce TOP 3-2-045 and MIL STD 810 G/H certifications and firsthand evaluated and destruction tested most of these and myriad of other military weapons.
Not to knock BCM or Paul because he did assemble some good value and quality ARs for the general public but he aint spending hundreds of thousands of dollars doing required testings and producing certifications and he doesnt make jack in his warehouse.
So please take your amateur fanboy ass back to M4C and preach your horseshit over there with the other retards...Some of us do this for a living and I assure you your BCM with its button green mountain or wilson barrel depending on the month aint equal to my HK...Kid

 

[MontanaMan]

Oh so you're an expert on piston systems and HK now ?
FN,LWRC,LMT, HK,Geissele, KAC, Barrett and a few others spend an enormous amount of money having their weapons mil spec tested. Ive seen all these companies produce TOP 3-2-045 and MIL STD 810 G/H certifications and firsthand evaluated and destruction tested most of these and myriad of other military weapons.
Not to knock BCM or Paul because he did assemble some good value and quality ARs for the general public but he aint spending hundreds of thousands of dollars doing required testings and producing certifications and he doesnt make jack in his warehouse.
So please take your amateur fanboy ass back to M4C and preach your horseshit over there with the other retards...Some of us do this for a living and I assure you your BCM with its button green mountain or wilson barrel depending on the month aint equal to my HK...Kid

Hear, hear.

MM

 

[RyanScott]

And that means......

DD barrels are decent but that's about where it ends. BCM basically took Colt quality/QC/QA and replicated it then innovated years ago and brings a new standard today. DD really brings nothing to the table today. They are like Noveske, overpriced decent stuff beyond its time. If you want good quality hard use tools that won't break the bank, BCM is where you go. RIS II is going away and the difference between a Colt/DD/FN/CBM CMV barrel is nil. BCM offers much better profiles and you can actually buy them.

DD and BCM make duty grade guns, period. They aren’t next level or next gen stuff, they are just what Colt would make if Colt didn’t stop moving forward. Both will work, neither is a strong value.

The only thing BCM excels at is marketing.

They make good guns and great marketing.

Why not get a nice compact rifle like a Tavor SAR/X95?

Because bullpups are shit.

Pws

bench

If I were to get a piston, that would be it. I wish they could be had with an A&D hammered barrel and an Aermet bolt though.

After careful review I think I’m going with the KAC. Thanks for the input guys.

Excellent choice and exactly what I recommend.

Piston ARs are a solution looking for a problem with the exception of a special envelope, which is why the 416 was created. Otherwise the gas system is superior in every way. MPR is nothing special, it's heavy and barrels are expensive. Takes 10 minutes to change an AR barrel anyway no need to for QC.

Agree on piston guns. The 416 came from a durability requirement not a reliability requirement as the lifespan of a Mk18 is short. What most people don’t know is that most of its enhancements are in materials science and can be carried over to the DI AR, although piston does have a place in 10” barrels and shorter as it requires less dwell time—the piston being behind the gas port rather than on the rear of the bolt.

Seriously guys just buy an SR-15 instead of ten PSAs, it’s cheaper and will last as long as all ten PSAs.

 

[RyanScott]

Oh, I forgot to say. I have a love/hate thing with the MRP. I give precisely zero fucks about the quick change barrels and the lack of barrel options is frustrating. I also get annoyed that they drill all their ports too long but I love that they drill them at an angle. The straight gas tube is hot. The barrels are high quality. But most importantly the 1 piece 7075 rail is the stiffest son of a bitch you can buy, and that has value.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Oh so you're an expert on piston systems and HK now ?
FN,LWRC,LMT, HK,Geissele, KAC, Barrett and a few others spend an enormous amount of money having their weapons mil spec tested. Ive seen all these companies produce TOP 3-2-045 and MIL STD 810 G/H certifications and firsthand evaluated and destruction tested most of these and myriad of other military weapons.
Not to knock BCM or Paul because he did assemble some good value and quality ARs for the general public but he aint spending hundreds of thousands of dollars doing required testings and producing certifications and he doesnt make jack in his warehouse.
So please take your amateur fanboy ass back to M4C and preach your horseshit over there with the other retards...Some of us do this for a living and I assure you your BCM with its button green mountain or wilson barrel depending on the month aint equal to my HK...Kid

With about $20k in HK sitting in my gun room, expert no...probally have a good idea what works and doesn't

You aren't the only one doing this for a living child. Stop throwing around buzz words like mil std, which really means jack shit. How much time you got working at Aberdeen and Edgewood doing this shit? Less than some here I will assume.

And stop putting words In people's mouth it just makes you look stupid and desperate. Show me the quote where anyone said BCM makes a better gun or has better barrels than HK.

I could give two shits where a barrel is sourced from as long as it's built correctly with the right materials, heat treated and assembled correctly. Results are what matters.

FN doesn't make piston ARs, LRWC are toys and have been shit going back to Paul's day, LMT hasn't done shit other than the Mars lower, HK Ars are pointless unless you are shooting high round count suppressed shorties, Kac Is kac and Barret hasn't made an AR anyone cares about in forever.

 

[scharfschutze762]

MIL STD means jack shit... of course it does for fucking nobody hobbiest never wore a fucking uniform except to sell cookies door to door pukes like you...But the company you jizz guzzle sure like to throw the milspec 1195E barrel bullshit around a lot.
Aberdeen or Edgewood? you are one ignorant motherfucker

 

[RyanScott]

MIL STD means something very specific, which causes things to gravitate towards an acceptable level of mediocrity.

 

[The DFC]

FN probally makes the most accurate barrels of those listed, they have some special Juju when it comes to chroming. Very consistent application and it shows in the accuracy of their barrels.

What you have shot and what the reality is is not the same thing. Sorry to burst your bubble bubba..

BCM makes a police called the ELW. Similar to a lighter pencil barrel but needed up in the right places. For anyone not shooting auto, it's the optimal profile for a Carbine barrel. Wish KAC offered something similar on their factory guns.

I don't recall ever reading about FN barrels and their accuracy. BCM either other then they're not accurate save for MK12. FN knows their way around a barrel and how to consistently mass produce them no doubt. I have an FN CHF barrel and it's "combat" accurate at best.

I have BCM ELW barrels-14.5"-very light-and very mobile-but heats up quick and is a bullet sprayer. Mid-length gas.

Do you shoot at all? I shoot a lot-have posted many targetst here with LMT and KAC rigs. Maybe you have some 5x5 targets displaying FN barrel accuracy? I see LMT targets all the time displaying moa/sub moa accuracy.

 

[thehun]

I guarantee you 95% of firearms will never find out what actually works or doesn't...anymore its all about looking tactical metro with beards, sunglasses and "tactical" plead shirts with $2400 custom Glock 43 carry guns...

Just look at the dumbness on the internet with ARs...quite frankly...a lot of firearm owners annoy the crap out of me when they start talking about how tactical and milspec their gear is...

Just get whatever...if you actually put high round counts downrange...you know what works and doesn't work and no one would be asking "what works" "which one to go with" etc...etc..etc...if you put 4000-10000rds down range on a barrel...you can afford a rebarrel and a new bolt...

These topics are dumb.

 

[The DFC]

With about $20k in HK sitting in my gun room, expert no...probally have a good idea what works and doesn't

You aren't the only one doing this for a living child. Stop throwing around buzz words like mil std, which really means jack shit. How much time you got working at Aberdeen and Edgewood doing this shit? Less than some here I will assume.

And stop putting words In people's mouth it just makes you look stupid and desperate. Show me the quote where anyone said BCM makes a better gun or has better barrels than HK.

I could give two shits where a barrel is sourced from as long as it's built correctly with the right materials, heat treated and assembled correctly. Results are what matters.

FN doesn't make piston ARs, LRWC are toys and have been shit going back to Paul's day, LMT hasn't done shit other than the Mars lower, HK Ars are pointless unless you are shooting high round count suppressed shorties, Kac Is kac and Barret hasn't made an AR anyone cares about in forever.

$20k in HK firearms says a lot about you

 

[CrabsandFootball]

$20k in HK firearms says a lot about you

Got a thing for roller lock guns. They are my weakness.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I don't recall ever reading about FN barrels and their accuracy. BCM either other then they're not accurate save for MK12. FN knows their way around a barrel and how to consistently mass produce them no doubt. I have an FN CHF barrel and it's "combat" accurate at best.

I have BCM ELW barrels-14.5"-very light-and very mobile-but heats up quick and is a bullet sprayer. Mid-length gas.

Do you shoot at all? I shoot a lot-have posted many targetst here with LMT and KAC rigs. Maybe you have some 5x5 targets displaying FN barrel accuracy? I see LMT targets all the time displaying moa/sub moa accuracy.

FN barrels are world renown for their accuracy and durability. They don't use the same CMV and they are probally the best at the application of chrome. It takes 2 things to make a good CL barrel. Starting with a good blank and then very even application of chrome with the right thickness. It's why they can offer a bolt gun that shoots half moa that is chrome lined. The SCAR barrels are also known shooters. The only other company that probally compares is KAC with their in house barrels. They are a much smaller shop and you pay for that quality.

LMT makes fine stuff but they really don't bring anything exceptional to the table. They were the first to make the 10.5" guns under contract that in all fairness are inferior to 11.5" uppers from bcm at the time. Too small gas port and decreased dwell time tore the guns up faster and made them less reliable with a wide range of ammo under various environments. The MRP/MWS is a 15 year old design with little innovation since then. The Mars lowers are nice but they are just a cheaper more available version of KAC ambi lowers that have been around for 15 years as well.

BCM doesn't make match barrels. They are high quality duty grade guns that generally shoot 1 moa with quality ammo. More than enough for their intended purpose. Their mk12 barrels suck and are just as foolish as DD mk12 bullshit marketing. Both would have been smart to use Douglas or WOA off the shelf barrels for those guns instead of the marketing gimmick.

 

[jpcowboy]

I would go with Sons of Liberty Gunworks

 

[scharfschutze762]

And FYI about MIL STD or spec..Its just the bare minimum standard that keeps 95% of the bullshit out...And I cant say which big names but some of them couldnt even meet that or too stupid and cant understand basic requirements written on a 3rd grade level but they love posting videos with outlandish claims or just cant keep up minimum quality and have contracts yanked from under them. From those basic requirements that agency or PM writes the sometimes reasonable to sometimes ludicrous requirements.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Well that's the game after all. Idiots and ignorants writing requirements,. Maybe lucky to get one technically competent person help write the SOW. Pressure from above and below to tweak requirements or specs, COs trying the latest FAR/ DFAR flavor of the month, industry trying to sell BS.

The US government sucks ass at defining requirements and unless they are funding a prototype, they get rakesd over the coals. When it comes to small arms (and just about everything else) industry knows best. But it's a catch 22. Idoits on one side of the equation with the money purse and used car salesmen trying to sell shit on the other. So your choices are a blind guard dog or a fox watching the henhouse. Which one is more acceptable?

The same jabronis are writing the standards and revisions In the ordinance branch. There are some great guys but alot of dead weight, and usuly shit floats to the top for fed civs. Some detailed 05 or 6 who doesn't know what end the bullet comes out now writing policy and doctrine. The standard is just that... A STD without full context doesn't tell us anything.

Also mil stnds are just about useless.... IF you are dealing with good companies. If they already exceed that quality commercially, then you have little to worry about. Just don't try and pinch their margins or you will get what you pay for.

The best indicator of future performance is past performance. We know who we can trust and who we need to spend extra time ensuring they are going by the book.

 

[The DFC]

FN barrels are world renown for their accuracy and durability. They don't use the same CMV and they are probally the best at the application of chrome. It takes 2 things to make a good CL barrel. Starting with a good blank and then very even application of chrome with the right thickness. It's why they can offer a bolt gun that shoots half moa that is chrome lined. The SCAR barrels are also known shooters. The only other company that probally compares is KAC with their in house barrels. They are a much smaller shop and you pay for that quality.

LMT makes fine stuff but they really don't bring anything exceptional to the table. They were the first to make the 10.5" guns under contract that in all fairness are inferior to 11.5" uppers from bcm at the time. Too small gas port and decreased dwell time tore the guns up faster and made them less reliable with a wide range of ammo under various environments. The MRP/MWS is a 15 year old design with little innovation since then. The Mars lowers are nice but they are just a cheaper more available version of KAC ambi lowers that have been around for 15 years as well.

BCM doesn't make match barrels. They are high quality duty grade guns that generally shoot 1 moa with quality ammo. More than enough for their intended purpose. Their mk12 barrels suck and are just as foolish as DD mk12 bullshit marketing. Both would have been smart to use Douglas or WOA off the shelf barrels for those guns instead of the marketing gimmick.

FN barrels are top notch and durable. I'm not familiar with their accuracy being great-but SCAR 17s are shooters so that is a good point actually. I don't hear about SCAR 16s shooting as well but again I could be wrong and don't know everything.

LMT MARS lower are full ambi-KAC aren't. I'm not a big ambi guy-I learned on an M16A1/A2 and manipulation is muscle memory. I guess on the bench releasing the bolt on the right side is neat.

BCM doesn't make barrels as far as I know. Do they make anything? I have 4 BCMs-BFH and button-all chrome plated. 11.5 up to 16. None have come close to shooting 1 moa for me at least with any kind of ammo. They're great guns though-just not going to make you smile at the bench.

I have a very high opinion of LMT-mainly because I use them a lot-recreationally-and love the MWS platform and the ability to change barrels and calibers in seconds. All of the SS barrels I have from them are hammers. Their Chrome plated barrels have not exhibited as much accuracy as others have stated-but I don't have a lot of time on them.

 

[benchmstr]

I had a terrible experience with KAC, damn gun wouldn’t run for anything..that said the customer service was good and they eventually just gave up and replaced the gun. So, I would never spend money on another..

I see no difference between BCM and DD

Bench

 

[redneckbmxer24]

POF is fucking trash, BCM is overpriced for a company that does nothing special, and DD is owned and ran by and anti gun POS.

I'd spend my money on a LMT every time. They're been doing it right for decades and their machining tolerances and innovation IMO are the best in the industry. KAC is really good too but you are paying a little for gucci stuff and IMO the MRP is a better platform and the LMT MARS lower is a better ambi lower. The LMT enhanced BCG is also the best in the industry.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Well that's the game after all. Idiots and ignorants writing requirements,. Maybe lucky to get one technically competent person help write the SOW. Pressure from above and below to tweak requirements or specs, COs trying the latest FAR/ DFAR flavor of the month, industry trying to sell BS.

The US government sucks ass at defining requirements and unless they are funding a prototype, they get rakesd over the coals. When it comes to small arms (and just about everything else) industry knows best. But it's a catch 22. Idoits on one side of the equation with the money purse and used car salesmen trying to sell shit on the other. So your choices are a blind guard dog or a fox watching the henhouse. Which one is more acceptable?

The same jabronis are writing the standards and revisions In the ordinance branch. There are some great guys but alot of dead weight, and usuly shit floats to the top for fed civs. Some detailed 05 or 6 who doesn't know what end the bullet comes out now writing policy and doctrine. The standard is just that... A STD without full context doesn't tell us anything.

Also mil stnds are just about useless.... IF you are dealing with good companies. If they already exceed that quality commercially, then you have little to worry about. Just don't try and pinch their margins or you will get what you pay for.

The best indicator of future performance is past performance. We know who we can trust and who we need to spend extra time ensuring they are going by the book.

You sure fucking talk a lot shit for a fucking nobody..Perfect example of a fucking botched abortion.
And ill say it to your face at the next Military conference if you can even fucking get in.
And as far as your exceeding commercial quality... As a favor I inspected for a LE agency a stack of new rifles from your favorite blowjob company. They were a fucking hodgepodge of different manufacturer BCGs with some that looked like it was made in Bangladesh with a file and and wide range of tolerances but all " IN SPEC".. So fuck yourself and they the manufacturer were told the same..
The turds were replaced with DD MK18s

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Are you bipolar? Seriously you need medication.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I had a terrible experience with KAC, damn gun wouldn’t run for anything..that said the customer service was good and they eventually just gave up and replaced the gun. So, I would never spend money on another..

I see no difference between BCM and DD

Bench

First I have heard of a bad commercial KAC rifle . Details? You def hit the lottery there.

I can’t get mine to malfunction running everything from weak ass wolf steel case to black hills mk262 full loads. Their gas system is second to none.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Are you bipolar? Seriously you need medication.

He's right and you're a fucking idiot. BCM is living on their reputation from the past. Honestly the best thing they do is some of their Mlok/keymod acc's and metal mags and all they do is put their name on that shit just like everything else they sell. Other than that their rifles and uppers are nothing special and are nothing but a mid tier manufacturer. Same category as companies like Aero, Stag, RRA, and even the premium PSA stuff. ANY company could do what BCM is doing, it all a matter of who you call to source the parts. Just like a thousand other companies and even small local gun shops do these days. The difference is BCM got their start early and have a big online retail presence.

Next.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

FN barrels are top notch and durable. I'm not familiar with their accuracy being great-but SCAR 17s are shooters so that is a good point actually. I don't hear about SCAR 16s shooting as well but again I could be wrong and don't know everything.

LMT MARS lower are full ambi-KAC aren't. I'm not a big ambi guy-I learned on an M16A1/A2 and manipulation is muscle memory. I guess on the bench releasing the bolt on the right side is neat.

BCM doesn't make barrels as far as I know. Do they make anything? I have 4 BCMs-BFH and button-all chrome plated. 11.5 up to 16. None have come close to shooting 1 moa for me at least with any kind of ammo. They're great guns though-just not going to make you smile at the bench.

I have a very high opinion of LMT-mainly because I use them a lot-recreationally-and love the MWS platform and the ability to change barrels and calibers in seconds. All of the SS barrels I have from them are hammers. Their Chrome plated barrels have not exhibited as much accuracy as others have stated-but I don't have a lot of time on them.

Try black hills or FGMM 69gr smks as a control. They generally shoot well and will show the accuracy potential of most 5.56 guns. If your shooting 1.5-2 moa plinking ammo, then no surprise. My 11.5” and 16 elw both will print around 1 moa with good match ammo. More than acceptable. Scar17 will shoot sub moa with 155 noslers and 168fgmm. Heats up quick with the skinny barrel and it’s a 1:12 so I haven’t tried any heavies. I run mostly 130 SOST to take advantage of the velocity and barrier blind out to 500 yards. 1.5 moa at best but a nasty little pill.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

He's right and you're a fucking idiot. BCM is living on their reputation from the past. Honestly the best thing they do is some of their Mlok/keymod acc's and metal mags and all they do is put their name on that shit just like everything else they sell. Other than that their rifles and uppers are nothing special and are nothing but a mid tier manufacturer. Same category as companies like Aero, Stag, RRA, and even the premium PSA stuff. ANY company could do what BCM is doing, it all a matter of who you call to source the parts. Just like a thousand other companies and even small local gun shops do these days. The difference is BCM got their start early and have a big online retail presence.

Next.

Wow you two fucking? Hopefully he at least gives you a reach around.

You’re just as much a moron as him. You have no idea what type of sourcing, testing and qa/Qc actually goes into components. Your psa, stag, and aero parts half the time are rejected lots from places like bcm. But don’t let your ignorance get in the way of running your fuck hole.

welcome to ignore.

 

[Asiparks]

the thread that keeps just giving and giving....

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I love it when newbs come here and try to educate us . Reminds me of the know it all morons at gun stores and shows. You think you’re an expert but everybody else know you’re just retarded.

 

[MontanaMan]

FN barrels are world renown for their accuracy and durability. Yes, they are duable, no they are not any more accurate than other comparable barrels. They will only warrant their DMR rifle to 2 MOA. They don't use the same CMV and they are probally the best at the application of chrome. No they are not the best, good, but not best & & comparable to Colt. That honor likely goes to Ctriertion who also lap their chrome lined barrels. I've been involved with chrome plating for much of my engineering career & have developed several types of baths & processes & I've been in the Colt barrel plating facility. Yes, it takes a great surface finish before plating to get a good result after plating, however w/o lapping the as plated barrel will never, ever be as dimensionally consistent as it was before plating.............that's just the nature of the beast & the process. And the surface finish will not be as good either & that's why Criterion laps their barrels after plating. Until FN does that, they'll be at least behind Criterion for accuracy over a large barrel sample..It takes 2 things to make a good CL barrel. Starting with a good blank and then very even application of chrome with the right thickness. It's why they can offer a bolt gun that shoots half moa that is chrome lined. I've gotta see one of those. Next think I know you'll be telling us they are as good as a Bartlein bolt gun barrel too, eh? The SCAR barrels are also known shooters. The only other company that probally compares is KAC with their in house barrels. I have 3 KAC's & love'em but I don't think they plate their own barrels, but I'm not positive on that. Mainly because of the cost of a plating facility, the environmental issues with starting one & the specialized technical personnel & expertise required to support a relatively low volume of barrel production. They are a much smaller shop and you pay for that quality.

[QUOTE="CrabsandFootball]
I can’t get mine to malfunction running everything from weak ass wolf steel case to black hills mk262 full loads. Their gas system is second to none.[/QUOTE]

That's the single most accurate thing you've said & I agree...............none of the 3 I have, have ever hicupped on any kind of ammo & one is an LPR.

Their gas system setups run very reliably & are very soft shooting, IME.

MM

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I get what your saying but dude....you are off base on most of it.

the fact that you don’t know about the FN SPR and their reputation tells me you really don’t much about this game. They were a staple in this industry for years before we got cheap modular bolt guns. Some people still prefer the action to the push feed clones. No one said anything about barlien so stop putting words into people mouth.

I have No idea what or how they do it, but FN has the chroming down to a science. Same with KAC. Don’t give a shit if they do it in house contract it out or sprinkle fairy dust on it, results are what matters.

KAC makes a lot in house and is oem for certain manufactures. Some of the people in his thread would probably have a heart attack when they learn their fav mfg is having components built by KAC, while they shit on knights. Ironic.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I get what your saying but dude....you are off base on most of it.

KAC makes a lot in house and is oem for certain manufactures. Some of the people in his thread would probably have a heart attack when they learn their fav mfg is having components built by KAC, while they shit on knights. Ironic.

LOL you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re talking about and this confirms it. KAC doesn’t make a fucking thing OEM, but they do have a crap load of their components made by LMT who you were poopooing in one of your posts. You don’t know your ass from a hole in the ground.

You should really shut the fuck up before you make yourself look any dumber.

 

[RyanScott]

KAC makes a lot of things. They make barrels in house and have over a hundred CNC machines. They partner a lot less with LMT than they used to.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

KAC makes a lot of things. They make barrels in house and have over a hundred CNC machines. They partner a lot less with LMT than they used to.

Yep, but what do they make for other companies as the mouth breather stated? They’re making their own barrels, receivers, and rails but most of their small parts still come from LMT.

 

[jvr]

I own 2 of both. 2 sbr bcm’s and 14.5 & 16 DD’s. I agree with the comments on the furniture on the dd’s. I like bcm’s butt stock. I have dd rails on all of them. Both are great and reliable. Fit and finish is perfect (a little deeper black on dd ). Triggers are Mil-Spec. NOTE PSA SHOULD NOT BE MENTIONED IN COMPARISON TO EITHER OF THESE GUNS. I own a couple of these too. My nod is to dd, but their sbr’s are to expensive for me. So I shoot the sbr’s and the dds sit. Happy with them. I will say my old 14.5 is crazy accurate with tula. I do recommend investing in a top tier firearm if you think it could ever be used in self defense. Google POF customer service. You can’t go wrong with either one. You will be happy with either one.

 

[MontanaMan]

I get what your saying but dude....you are off base on most of it.

Your are really, really fuckin' full of shit......................if FN's CL barrels for an AR are world class accurate, then they should be able to warrant better accuracy that 2 MOA from an in-house build, but they don't.

And I like FN barrels & I think they are a good product, but their CL, AR barrels are not <MOA barrels across the board, maybe, BIG maybe, once in a while for all the reason that I've already told you about. I said it before & I'll say it again so maybe you can get it.................Criterion makes the most accurate CL barrels for an AR today.

As for components what KAC makes for other people, you brought that up, not me, & I don't really give a flyin' fuck one way or the other....................their end product is all that I'm interested in. And it's as good as it gets.

Other than that, GFY.

MM

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Keep talking, your just digging yourself deeper:

Stop moving the goal posts. They produce one of if not the best CHROME LINED BARRELS. Learn to read before and learn the subject before you start lecturing people who actually own these products.

FN SPR™ A3G | FN®

The FN SPR™ A3G precision rifle is built with pinpoint accuracy, relentless reliability, and predictable precision – round after round, year after year.

fnamerica.com

 

[RyanScott]

FN can make more accurate barrels you’ll just pay more for them. Noveske is an example.

A&D would be my choice for barrels if I could. Their minimum is too rich for my blood.

 

[MontanaMan]

Keep talking, your just digging yourself deeper:

Stop moving the goal posts. They produce one of if not the best CHROME LINED BARRELS. Learn to read before and learn the subject before you start lecturing people who actually own these products.

FN SPR™ A3G | FN®

The FN SPR™ A3G precision rifle is built with pinpoint accuracy, relentless reliability, and predictable precision – round after round, year after year.

fnamerica.com

Yep, another accuracy claim with no parameters..................undoubtedly implied but not said, a 3 shot group.

That's a pretty low bar, & you can bet that those CL barrels are not made with the exact same procedure as their everyday AR barrels, which as I recall was the subject if this thread. Doesn't say, but very likely lapped after plating & sorted via an air gauge to some fairly tight tolerance. Sure would like to know their reject rate on those.

I'm done talking to you, GFY.

MM

 

[CrabsandFootball]

FN can make more accurate barrels you’ll just pay more for them. Noveske is an example.

A&D would be my choice for barrels if I could. Their minimum is too rich for my blood.

I believe their good barrels were pac nors. I know the early SPR and Infidel Barrels I had were spun up by them. That was before John died so no idea who makes them now. Def not Pac Nor since they burned up last year.

 

[Asiparks]

Google POF customer service. You can’t go wrong with either one. You will be happy with either one.

I did... apparently a popular canadian dating site. Googling "Patriot Ordinance Factory Customer service" isn't bringing up any mass of horror stories.
I'd suspect most peoples' experience mirrors mine- pull trigger- bullet consistently goes where the barrel is pointed, usually sub moa.

fuck, how did we ever manage 15 years ago when all those Colt, DPMS, RRA and Bushmaster must have been blowing up in our faces....
Coming next : How carrying any 1911 less than a Wilson is like murdering your family....

 

[RyanScott]

I believe their good barrels were pac nors. I know the early SPR and Infidel Barrels I had were spun up by them. That was before John died so no idea who makes them now. Def not Pac Nor since they burned up last year.

Noveske hammer forged barrels are made by FN and are 3/4” barrels.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Sorry I was talking about their SS barrels.

 

[crwnking steve]

Have a great day

 

[Merle]

I would go with Sons of Liberty Gunworks

Or you could buy an Aero Precision receiver set, a Ballistic Advantage barrel, an SLR had guard, a Toolcraft BCG and youd have about the same rifle for half the money. From what I can see from their rifles they epitomize a company that doesnt make anything of their own. Just another parts assembling company that is trying to be the next BCM with their gimmicky patriotic marketing.

 

[ilmonster]

My personal opinion is that one would be well served by a DD, FN or BCM. Myself, I shoot a BCM Mod 0 rifle w/an Aimpoint PRO and have almost 4K rounds through it with not a single FTF, FTE or any other malfunction. As I live in Wisconsin, I shoot some AR competitions with some of the guys that work at BCM (they're located in Harland, WI, west of Milwaukee). A few observations on BCM.

In these AR competitions, we shoot at a rack of clays 50' to 60' away, and four times a mover fly's by and we can shoot at it. Time for all this is around 1 min. You can shoot as many rounds as you wish. Some of the guys who work at BCM will load up a 60 or 100 round Surefire mag. and have at it. When they're done, the barrels are literally smoking and can't be touched for 10 - 15 min. Never seen any malf's. I stick with a 30 round mag as if I shoot faster, I just miss quicker! Lot's of other guys, almost always with Frankenguns will be a few rounds into their turn and will have a malfunction of some type. My lesson from this is if you need an AR to ablsolutely to work, don't do Frankenguns. BCM, DD, FN, Knights, etc. and all viable options.

Speaking with the gentlemen from BCM, they really do seem to care about the products they put out the door. They have lots of QC controls in their process to make sure only quality product leaves the facility, and personally, they give a s#!^. Yup, my experience is anecdotal, with a sample size of few dozen rifles, but thought I'd throw it out there.

OP, let us know how you like the KAC rifle. They're certainly top of the heap!
p.s. pic's would be nice too!

 

[mavrick10_2000]

DD , BCM or Knights take your pick based upon your budget and purpose of the firearm. I have plenty of each brand - they all run well through thousands of rounds and classes. I don't prefer the laser logos on the civilian DD's but it's just cosmetic and could always be rattle canned over.

I have an older POF P308 that is a great rifle, very accurate and reliable- but I would only deal with the prior 3 for an all around general purpose rifle.

Know that with Knights there are some proprietary parts that are more expensive to have on hand. Still love mine.

 

[AngryKoala]

I don't find the worth in KAC but to each their own. At least the rifle will retain its value. If you're paying $1800 for a DD rifle then you're off your rocker. DD makes a great rifle, just look for deals on new or slightly used and they can be had for $1400. I love my DD m4v9.

Anyone have anything to say about the LMT MCT 556 11.5" pistol vs the DD m4v7p?

 

[woland]

There's an awful lot of vitriol in this thread. Since every statement about quality has been based upon a handful of anecdotes, often personal, these are really just opinions. Has anyone audited any of these manufacturers? Really looked at critical tolerance Cpk, material certs, on-going HALT results, MRB processes, etc? That's the only way to know for sure that the next rifle off the line (the one you're going to buy) will actually perform.

Industries producing objects that people actually do trust with their life (aerospace, medicine, food, etc.) have certifying and regulatory bodies to take care of this for you. I'm not aware of anything like that for firearms outside of the US Military and there's no way to know that your rifle is coming off the same line as theirs so even that's only an indicator.

Until someone shows up with real data, let's remember that we're not exactly dealing in facts here when talking about rifles in aggregate.

 

[army_eod]

I like my FN15 DMR

 

[army_eod]

Dunno. I recall my M-16 was Colt.

 

[army_eod]

Well that's the game after all. Idiots and ignorants writing requirements,. Maybe lucky to get one technically competent person help write the SOW. Pressure from above and below to tweak requirements or specs, COs trying the latest FAR/ DFAR flavor of the month, industry trying to sell BS.

The US government sucks ass at defining requirements and unless they are funding a prototype, they get rakesd over the coals. When it comes to small arms (and just about everything else) industry knows best. But it's a catch 22. Idoits on one side of the equation with the money purse and used car salesmen trying to sell shit on the other. So your choices are a blind guard dog or a fox watching the henhouse. Which one is more acceptable?

The same jabronis are writing the standards and revisions In the ordinance branch. There are some great guys but alot of dead weight, and usuly shit floats to the top for fed civs. Some detailed 05 or 6 who doesn't know what end the bullet comes out now writing policy and doctrine. The standard is just that... A STD without full context doesn't tell us anything.

Also mil stnds are just about useless.... IF you are dealing with good companies. If they already exceed that quality commercially, then you have little to worry about. Just don't try and pinch their margins or you will get what you pay for.

The best indicator of future performance is past performance. We know who we can trust and who we need to spend extra time ensuring they are going by the book.

That would be Joe Jibroni and agree about Fed civil service bubbas. It is spelled Ordnance Branch and ask me how I know.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Yea well at least you didn't have to spend years at APG/Edgewood (unless you were stationed there). Alabama and Florida are so much nicer