POI / Zero shift of different firing positions

[AR Jon]

There are lots of ways to address this subject so Ill just wade in.

how do different firing positions affect the POI? and the related question would then be.....whats the best way to fire for zeroing a gun?

So I went to zero my 7.62 x 39 AR with Red Dot yesterday. I looked up some info and saw an article on a 35/186 zero https://savannaharsenal.com/2017/10/15/what-distance-to-zero-a-red-dot-on-an-ak-47/ So that should be close for my gun using cheap Russian steel cased ammo

I go to the range. Long story short I am already about right at the 50 so i go to the 100 and im maybe 4" high rather than the 2.35" in the article. I figured no big deal because I want to be about zeroed at the 200 anyway rather than 1" low.

IIRC I had to adjust it higher to hit the 200. I may be mistaken in my memory because I had to sort of chase it at the 200.

In any case all of this shooting so far was off of benches with caldwell bags. So i finally get it hitting decently at 200. Im happy

I do some standing with no sling etc and I hit the 12" target with 2 out of 4 shots. Again, for my low experience level I wasnt too disappointed. (though I aim to get way better)

So I try some different shooting positions...sitting, kneeling blah blah. Eventually I try prone. ohhh, this should be easy. I line up on my 8" target. should be easy. The red dot is nice and steady. andddddd....all of a sudden I cant hit a barn. I go back to the 12" target and cant hit it either. wtf? lol

I also tried the standing variation where you hold a pole with the left arm and lay the rifle across the forearm etc. This also seems like it would be quite easy as the dot is pretty steady...yet IIRC I wasnt hitting much.


soooo. how do the different positions affect POI....or should they??

there are so many variations. if we are going to be using different variations.....then should we really be zeriong off of a bench with bags etc? on my 556 id usually id be zeroing with a bipod but then again I usually shoot that gun WITH the bipod.


anyway, any thoughts would be appreciated. Im going back today with some larger targets to see whats actually going on lol


Thanks, JonJon

 

[Dthomas3523]

With that rifle/optic, the ammo, not having prior data, and many other things in the post....

You do not have even remotely close to anything you could use to say something was different or not where it should be.

 

[MCHOG]

There is a lot of stuff going on here. I think you should be happy with minute of man accuracy and just have fun with that rifle. Don't waste your time, ammo, and patience trying to do precision work with it.

 

[AR Jon]

With that rifle/optic, the ammo, not having prior data, and many other things in the post....

You do not have even remotely close to anything you could use to say something was different or not where it should be.

regardless of any of that, the question can still be legit asked "(how) do different firing positions affect POI?"

point taken btw.

 

[MCHOG]

Various positions will mostly affect your group size by causing more or less wobble. Point of impact shift (a change in the relationship between the bullet's trajectory and the optic's aim point) is a completely different issue. To the extent it will change, it will be due mostly to changes to pressure on your barrel and, to a lesser extent, on the receiver. If you have a free-float handguard, then any POI shift will be minimized. Nobody can tell you that resting your handguard on a barricade will cause a POI shift in a particular direction or by a particular angle. All anyone can tell you is that it will change. Any POI shift will be negligible and masked by other factors, the primary one being you.

 

[AR Jon]

Various positions will mostly affect your group size by causing more or less wobble. Point of impact shift (a change in the relationship between the bullet's trajectory and the optic's aim point) is a completely different issue. To the extent it will change, it will be due mostly to changes to pressure on your barrel and, to a lesser extent, on the receiver. If you have a free-float handguard, then any POI shift will be minimized. Nobody can tell you that resting your handguard on a barricade will cause a POI shift in a particular direction or by a particular angle. All anyone can tell you is that it will change. Any POI shift will be negligible and masked by other factors, the primary one being you.

point taken about wobble. I get that part. But im thinking more about the solidity of the position affecting the muzzle velocity etc

Well another way to ask the same question would be to ask about variations in muzzle velocity for different firing positions. (which will change the POI..correct?)

are we really saying that a shot fired from a really solid, locked in prone position and a shot fired from a standing offhand position will have the same exact velocity and thus POI? what about when we throw in improvised positions?

I guess in the end im getting at the notion that a 'zero' isnt some written in stone thing. imagine a gun fired from some sort of vise and its "zeroed" at 100 yds. Then the same gun is fired one handed from a standing position. Is it still 'zeroed" at 100 yds?

 

[Lowlight]

Two words,

Recoil Management

Recoil tells the bullet where the barrel is upon release, when you adjust the position the recoil pulse changes, and the barrel position upon release changes.

 

[AR Jon]

I guess the thought experiment would be the muzzle velocity of a perfectly locked in gun versus that of a gun just floating or hanging from a string. All the other firing positions would be somewhere in between

I think one thing I was struggling with yesterday was that i started from the wrong point. I wanted my far intersect point to be at 200 yds maybe plus or minus an inch. Going by the article above that would equate to 50 yrd POI being almost an inch high. So I started at 50 yrds and I just happened to be almost exactly correct. So of course I was assuming my100 and 200 would be correct too. if only life worked that way. So I ended up having to do lots of adjusting and it was too much to keep up with

Today I went back and just got the 200 squared away and then things made more sense. I shot various firing positions at 200 etc

Then i went to 100 and replicated the ol' "hand against the pole with rifle laid across forearm" shot...I missed the 8" target while aiming dead center. i was assuming the POI would be like +2" or so but it was more like 4" or 5". Whether or not its "supposed" to be that, I cant say. But when I then held at the bottom edge of the target I was hitting it no problem (not a hard shot obviously)

 

[MCHOG]

I understand what you asking now. You are asking whether your DOPE at various ranges will be affected by changes in velocity due to having a soft or hard shoulder. The answer is that there can be some small velocity losses with less support behind the rifle. But, at the ranges you are shooting that will have zero practical effect.

 

[AR Jon]

haha. gliding around the internet looking for pics of shooting positions and....

Can the Shooting Position Affect Muzzle Velocity?

The answer to the question in the title is “YES!”.Sniper’s Hide has recently released a video, where they experimentally prove that and explain why it happens.The host of the channel shows that shooting from the bench (sitting) results in 20 fps decrease of average muzzle velocity compared to...

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[AR Jon]

I understand what you asking now. You are asking whether your DOPE at various ranges will be affected by changes in velocity due to having a soft or hard shoulder. The answer is that there can be some small velocity losses with less support behind the rifle. But, at the ranges you are shooting that will have zero practical effect.

yeah I figured it would be pretty negligible.

 

[MCHOG]

I bet an inquisitive person like you would really enjoy the online training here. You should sign up for a month or two and see how much you learn. It's one of the best values in training.

 

[Lowlight]

I did a video on this already



Almost 20fps variation

 

[Slash0311]

Ive been shooting AR platforms with red dots for lots of years. Ive shot everything from Vortex, Trijicon, Aimpoint to Eotech. One of the biggest things Ive seen that you might be overlooking is the simple fact that the red dot will be a fixed size and covering a large portion of your target. In my opinion that will have a much larger impact on your accuracy than any variation from your shooting position.

Not to mention that generally speaking 7.62x39 is best known for plinking soviet ammo, not high accuracy precision.

Also don't forget the mechanical offset (sight line vs bore line) will factor into how high and low your impacts are. With typical 5.56 ARs, an 80 yard zero will equate into the bullet impacting at a good zero again at 180 yards. Not sure if that holds true for 7.62 x 39.

My money is on those two things causing more issues over positions.

 

[AR Jon]

I definitely got into shooting at a bad time. I have 2 ARs and everyone says they suck for accuracy. ok, whatevs.

If I buy virtually any precision rifle, the ammo cost will simply be unbearable. I simply cant practice at $1.50 a shot etc. Even if I did "bite the bullet" and get a 6.5 creedmore or similar. id then be told I was being limited by shooting factory ammo.

seems there is a VERY high barrier to accuracy for us guys starting in 2020

Ive practiced and got one 556 AR hitting some groups slightly under 1MOA with basic 55g hornady frontier, (but probably averaging 2 to 2.5). Then today I go to the range with 62g green tips and its like i couldnt hit planet Earth. Same gun.

its a rich mans game at the moment

 

[Slash0311]

Remember a couple of things. Red dots cover a great de of your target at distance. A good scope will make a world of difference there. How different can your point of aim be if your dot covers everything? Or, how big is your target if you can see it behind your dot at even 100 y?

As for ammo, accuracy can change with the smallest of variables. You mentioned 2 different bullet weights, that could be a clue. Ive had guns where exact same ammo in two similar guns were night and day different. Try a couple different ammo weights and brands and stick to that one or two best choices.

We all have budgets we're trying to stay within. Plinking away with cheap stuff may be counterproductive if you're going for best accuracy.

 

[AR Jon]

Remember a couple of things. Red dots cover a great de of your target at distance. A good scope will make a world of difference there. How different can your point of aim be if your dot covers everything? Or, how big is your target if you can see it behind your dot at even 100 y?

As for ammo, accuracy can change with the smallest of variables. You mentioned 2 different bullet weights, that could be a clue. Ive had guns where exact same ammo in two similar guns were night and day different. Try a couple different ammo weights and brands and stick to that one or two best choices.

We all have budgets we're trying to stay within. Plinking away with cheap stuff may be counterproductive if you're going for best accuracy.

yeah, I discussed 2 different guns in this thread. The thread was started about my 7.62x39 AR with Red Dot. I deffo understand the limitations of the Red Dot even though i run it with a pretty small dot. Obviously im not looking for super accuracy on that gun. that being said im not trying to miss 8" targets at 200yds either lol. Im using that gun to experiment with all the different firing positions and sling methods etc

My other AR has a 16" 1/8 barrel and a Nikon Fx1000 mrad scope and a magpul bipod. yeah I understand thats not a setup to win a PRS meet but I dont see why I cant be averaging 1.5ish MOA. Due to the current realities, I have pretty much only shot 55g thru it. Ive been getting better with it etc but today I put in some 62g federal green tip and it was pretty bleak. I understand that different bullets can make a huge difference just due to the way things work (harmonics, timing, whatevs)

I havent even laid eyes on any 69g or 77g yet lol.

The catch22 current situation is frustrating. I ask for help only to be told the AR sucks for accuracy. or to be told my skill level is lacking. Meanwhile theres just no way to confidently buy a precision rifle due to the current ammo situation

couple weeks back I shot some nice groups (556 AR with 55g) at the gun club I just joined. Things were progressing nicely. Then I started working with my 7.62 AR to get the bugs worked out of it. I went back to my 556 AR today with some new 62g and frankly it wasnt good. I'll get told I need lessons or my skill level is this or that. Did my skill level all of a sudden drop 50% or does my gun simply not like the 62g green tips? So I catch myself experimenting with all sort of complicated methods when im pretty sure its just a mismatch between gun and ammo.

cant experiment with unavailable ammo
cant confidently buy a precision rifle due to ammo situation
HUGE entry barrier to get into hand loading

I have a feeling my fundamentals arent THAT bad

cest la vie. i'll keep soldiering on.

 

[MCHOG]

Sure, it can get as expensive as you let it. But it doesn’t have to be. The Tikka TACT, the Ruger Precision Rifle, and the APO are examples of reasonably priced factory rifles that will not hold most shooters back. You can get a good barreled action for even less than that if you want to bed it in a stock yourself. If you are interested in the art / sport, the cost can be a lot lower than many other hobbies.

 

[AR Jon]

yeah the gun isnt the problem. id buy 1 or 2 tnite if that was it lol. its the ammo thats the killer. How much practicing can I do if its $1.50 per shot? lol

the only ammo ive seen thats remotely feasible is 308. Ive seen some cheap russian for about $1 rd and some PPU for even less. That being said, my understanding is that 308 has been somewhat outclassed by newer stuff like 6.5 creed etc. So id hate to get into a 308 if its just going to be another dead end. On the one hand it could still be worthwhile to get me to another level. that being said, you dont see anyone winning PRS type events with a 308

 

[AR Jon]

well here is a dumb question.

what if I went something along this route (or some other 223 model)....just to try to take the next step in my evolution. I understand its not some elite level caliber but im already familiar with it and have accepted the cost level of the ammo

Axis II Precision | Precision Series | Savage Arms

The Savage Axis II Precision has built a reputation as a budget friendly rifle that doesn't sacrifice accuracy or performance. Built for the shooter that wants one hole groups from a rifle that won't shoot holes in his wallet.

www.savagearms.com

that would, for the moment, dodge some of the ammo issues. and couldnt this barrel and action be swapped out later if so desired??

what MOA levels could be reached with this type of setup?

 

[Slash0311]

The big difference is to understand limitations. AR s are fine guns but not as accurate as most bolt guns. Semi autos are normally not as accuracte as bolt guns because of reliability. Yes, there are examples against each so Im not saying all semis are less accurate than bolts.

Try shooting groups with the same ammo at different distances. Yes, ammo is difficult to find. However, don't change variables and expect same results. Think of buying a Indy car but running pump gas. Then asking why that car isn't keeping up with other Indy cars.

 

[Slash0311]

[/QUOTE]

well here is a dumb question.

what if I went something along this route (or some other 223 model)....just to try to take the next step in my evolution. I understand its not some elite level caliber but im already familiar with it and have accepted the cost level of the ammo

Axis II Precision | Precision Series | Savage Arms

The Savage Axis II Precision has built a reputation as a budget friendly rifle that doesn't sacrifice accuracy or performance. Built for the shooter that wants one hole groups from a rifle that won't shoot holes in his wallet.

www.savagearms.com

that would, for the moment, dodge some of the ammo issues. and couldnt this barrel and action be swapped out later if so desired??

what MOA levels could be reached with this type of setup?

First piece of advice... Do not get wrapped up of "Why isn't my gun shooting sub MOA groups?". Get a gun and work on fundamentals. Work on bettering your groups. You can take a mediocre gun with mediocre glass and have awesome groups if you master the basics. Same thing in reverse too. The best gun and glass in the hands of someone not solid on fundamentals won't group well.

Have reasonable expectations. That rifle, or others similarly priced would be great for starters. If you get that rifle and shoot sub-MOA groups at 100, then stretch it out to 200. But take the time to understand the basics, what ammo it likes, and what level you can preform to. The best rifle won't group well with cheap ammo.

We all have to start somewhere.

 

[AR Jon]

First piece of advice... Do not get wrapped up of "Why isn't my gun shooting sub MOA groups?". Get a gun and work on fundamentals. Work on bettering your groups. You can take a mediocre gun with mediocre glass and have awesome groups if you master the basics. Same thing in reverse too. The best gun and glass in the hands of someone not solid on fundamentals won't group well.

Have reasonable expectations. That rifle, or others similarly priced would be great for starters. If you get that rifle and shoot sub-MOA groups at 100, then stretch it out to 200. But take the time to understand the basics, what ammo it likes, and what level you can preform to. The best rifle won't group well with cheap ammo.

We all have to start somewhere.

I feel like sub moa groups ARE a reasonable expectation

Dunno if I fully agree on the mediocre gun producing awesome groups. But therein lies the problem. its not like I know 50 top shooters I can hand my AR to and see what they can do with it.

I have played electric guitar for like 32 years. I have gotten many compliments over the years. if you hand me a crappy guitar i wont be getting too many compliments lol

and if a gun/ammo combination is simply incapable of sub moa groups, then all you are doing by continuing to practice on it is to screw yourself up worse. People say 'work on the fundamentals'. Yeah, but there HAS to be positive feedback so that those fundamentals can be honed. If you do great fundamentals and still shoot a 2.5 or more MOA group, then you are going to try something else lol

im going to look at that Axis 2. for all I know the local Dunhams has it in stock lol

 

[AR Jon]

shoot, this would probably get me going.

Axis II | Hunting Rifle | Savage Arms

The Savage AXIS II offers hunters and shooters a high performance rifle without breaking the bank. Every AXIS rifle is loaded with features that deliver tack-driving accuracy with every shot.

www.savagearms.com

A slight drawback to the axis 2 precision would the weight. about 10lbs without a scope. Seems like that might get a bit heavy to be doing all of the different firing positions and sling manipulations etc

 

[Slash0311]

But that's my point....

Have YOU shot a sub-MOA group with any gun?

I can take your finest guitar and make it sound like a cat being flung against a wall, because I don't know the fundamentals of it. I can't compare myself to Slash of Guns-N-Roses. So it doesn't matter what he can do.

Likewise, focus on getting your best groups you can. Then work on getting your groups better. Now, if at some point you decide that your groups are as good as they can get, week in and week out, then look at why and making changes.

 

[AR Jon]

Have YOU shot a sub-MOA group with any gun?

2 weeks ago. 50 yds. 55g. same gun today with 62g couldnt hit the planet

lol. maybe I just forgot how to shoot huh?

 

[Slash0311]

2 weeks ago. 50 yds. 55g. same gun today with 62g couldnt hit the planet

View attachment 7457078


lol. maybe I just forgot how to shoot huh?

Ok. Then my next question is what are your groups doing if you go back to 55gr?

You're asking if you forgot how to shoot but have you ruled out the different ammo?

 

[theLBC]

weird. my rifles shoots where it is pointed, even if i am lying on my back having sex with russian hookers.

i would guess that the muzzle is probably more likely to jump for a new shooter from a prone position shooting up at a target., vs when he is on a bench and more on top of the rifle shooting level or down at the target.

 

[AR Jon]

Ok. Then my next question is what are your groups doing if you go back to 55gr?

You're asking if you forgot how to shoot but have you ruled out the different ammo?

I was being facetious brother. Obviously the ammo isnt jiving. I dont think I forgot how to shoot lol

my understanding is that 1/8 is a little fast for 55g and should be better suited to 62g but somewhere along the lines this particular 62g on this particular day wasnt hitting on much. and I have 375 more rds of it!

 

[AR Jon]

weird. my rifles shoots where it is pointed, even if i am lying on my back having sex with russian hookers.

i would guess that the muzzle is probably more likely to jump from a prone position for a new user, vs when he is on a bench and more on top of the rifle shooting level or down at the target than behind it shooting up at a target.

yeah I was getting a fair amount of the typical muzzle "jump to the left". from a sort of weird shaped concrete bench at the gun club

what happens when I start struggling is I start trying things. Mostly related with how much to pull back on the grip and what angle to pull back etc. How hard to push down or not push down into the rear bag. When u get to chasing your tail you can really find dozens of ways to manipulate. things. id get 2 shots where it recoiled straight back and then the third shot would jump 8" left....all the while not feeling like i did anything different

This is one of my frustrations. I hear all about fundamentals etc. Then i watch PRS matches and guys are free recoiling and/or shooting from hasty setups where they are barely touching the gun and at some weird angle. I have a feeling that 90% of the battle is lucking across the right gun/ammo combination

 

[theLBC]

yeah I was getting a fair amount of the typical muzzle "jump to the left". from a sort of weird shaped concrete bench at the gun club

what happens when I start struggling is I start trying things. Mostly related with how much to pull back on the grip and what angle to pull back etc. How hard to push down or not push down into the rear bag. When u get to chasing your tail you can really find dozens of ways to manipulate. things. id get 2 shots where it recoiled straight back and then the third shot would jump 8" left....all the while not feeling like i did anything different

This is one of my frustrations. I hear all about fundamentals etc. Then i watch PRS matches and guys are free recoiling and/or shooting from hasty setups where they are barely touching the gun and at some weird angle. I have a feeling that 90% of the battle is lucking across the right gun/ammo combination

are you following through and holding the trigger back until the entire shot is complete?

i found that i was much more able to evaluate my technique when i was focusing on following through and not "giving up" on the shot as soon as i pulled the trigger. pulling the trigger is the beginning, not the end of the shot, and sometimes people are only thinking about what they are doing until they pull the trigger, and then their focus is downrange.

 

[AR Jon]

are you following through and holding the trigger back until the entire shot is complete?

i found that i was much more able to evaluate my technique when i was focusing on following through and not "giving up" on the shot as soon as i pulled the trigger. pulling the trigger is the beginning, not the end of the shot, and sometimes people are only thinking about what they are doing until they pull the trigger, and then their focus is downrange.

im not 100% on that yet. sometimes im well aware that I followed thru correctly. sometimes it doesnt enter my mind so who knows

on some shots today i was deffo trying to make sure I didnt change anything as the shot went off. Whatever pressures and grip I had etc i was trying to keep all way thru the shot.

quite a bunch of muzzle jump to the left today though. Part of it is the typical fudd range setup. Sitting on a chair on concrete with a concrete bench with a weird shape. its really hard to get any forward lean going.

I had planned to work a lot of prone today but it started raining. hurricane coming thru tomorrow so...lol

 

[theLBC]

im not 100% on that yet. sometimes im well aware that I followed thru correctly. sometimes it doesnt enter my mind so who knows

on some shots today i was deffo trying to make sure I didnt change anything as the shot went off. Whatever pressures and grip I had etc i was trying to keep all way thru the shot.

quite a bunch of muzzle jump to the left today though. Part of it is the typical fudd range setup. Sitting on a chair on concrete with a concrete bench with a weird shape. its really hard to get any forward lean going.

I had planned to work a lot of prone today but it started raining. hurricane coming thru tomorrow so...lol

part of your problem sounds like you got too much going on.
you shouldn't be pushing or pulling anything. you should be relaxed.
if you are trying to push your stock down into the bag when you are shooting, there is no way you are going to be consistent.

my understanding of the process tells me the rifle wants to go straight back unless it isn't allowed to, and then it isn't going to go straight back.
that means your shoulder pocket isn't allowing the rifle to come straight back.
either you are pulling back like you're shooting a shotgun, or you got no meat to cushion the recoil.

if you have not watched the vids in the thread, do that first.

Recoil management

FNG here, first post other than introduction. It appears that I suck at recoil management. Three guns, a Ruger American Predator in .223, Tikka T3x 6.5 creedmoor and Fierce Fury .300wm with factory radial brake. All three have Harris bipods and are shot prone. I can shoot the .223 and stay...

www.snipershide.com

 

[AR Jon]

yeah when I start struggling it can get pretty mechanical. If I listed out the various possible thought processes it might give you a nightmare.

Mainly I am trying to pull back thru the grip to seat the gun into the shoulder etc. But of course that can also get into pulling downward into the bag.

Also there is the cheekweld. I have heard various theories on how heavy it should be etc.

Today i experimented with probably every possibility. lots of tail chasing but it was fun in a way


the devils advocate in me wants to say "if you are relaxed and barely touching the rifle...where is the skill involved?"

5/8" 209. in and out of gyms for many years. Beefiness shouldnt be a problem. I should be a master at recoil management

 

[AR Jon]

haha, from that thread:

" You may be loading the bipod too heavily. All you are trying to do there is take the slack out of the bipod, not anchor the rifle. Use the amount of pressure that you can feel when slightly pressing your fingers into your shoulder pocket, as if you were taking someone's pulse. If the muzzle is jumping it sounds like you may be leaning into the rifle too hard. Think about recoil -- the rifle returns rearward, and if you are really driving it forward on the shot it has nowhere to go but to bounce off your body. Many shooters now use free recoil, or close to free recoil, meaning a very soft body signature on the rifle. Possible you are doing the opposite. "

sounds like me all day. anything worth doing is worth massively overdoing

 

[D1gger]

2 weeks ago. 50 yds. 55g. same gun today with 62g couldnt hit the planet

View attachment 7457078


lol. maybe I just forgot how to shoot huh?

Those are respectable groups, and you should be able to get 1" groups at 100yds with a little work. AR's can be finicky sometimes.
Learn the recoil management and trigger discipline-you should hear the trigger reset-and the groups will follow

 

[AR Jon]

Those are respectable groups, and you should be able to get 1" groups at 100yds with a little work. AR's can be finicky sometimes.
Learn the recoil management and trigger discipline-you should hear the trigger reset-and the groups will follow

yeah ive done a lot of work with 55g since I started shooting in mid July lol. Im definitely still working out how firmly to load the bipod and also how hard to pull back on the grip. Common sense tells me im doing way too much hard work (as mentioned above). Im gonna try a bit lighter touch this week, Lord Willing

 

[AR Jon]

so I goes to the range today. I misjudged the weather report and it was "freezing". Well most days when I have shot its been like 65-75 degrees so today it was like 50ish with the wind blowing 7-10. So to me it was "freezing". Im simply not a cold weather person.

Anyway, im in jeans and long sleeve shirt so I end up putting on whatever I had in the car lol. Gloves, scarf, headband thingy.

So going by comments in this thread and other reading and just reflecting on my approach, i decided to try WAY less pressure all around. Way less bipod loading. WAAAYYYYY less trigger hand manipulations. While I still pulled it into the shoulder, it was way less than what ive gotten used to. WAY less hardcore pushing down into the bag. WAY lighter cheek weld etc.

Due to the cold though I simply couldnt concentrate. I was setup on a wooden bench thats sort of like a picnic table. Saint AR. Magpul bipod. Freefloat handguard. Rave 140 trigger. 62g federal bulk. Shooting at 50 yds.

I extended the bipod legs all the way and used the "front" bag from a caldwell dead shot bag combo as my rear bag. TBH though there wasnt a ton of rear bag pressure etc. half the time I think i was just leaning my body on the bag with the stock barely touching it. I was so irritated by the cold I was just trying to shoot my groups and get it over with.

#1 was the warm up group. First shot was the hard left flyer. same as circles 2,7,6,9. Something about me resetting the position leads to that pulled shot at the 7-8 oclock position on the first shot.

In any case, on most of the shots there wasnt any big bipod hopping. Nothing like what I normally have. The pulled shots and a few others did have some hopping but on most shots the scope just settled back into the POA.

I shot in order 1,4,3,2,7,6,5,10,9,8.

Before I shot group 10 I realized the bipod was still slipping some on the slick table so I get the floormat out of my car and set the bipod on it. for whatever its worth the floor mat itself would also slip a little bit so I think that shows I still had plenty of loading going on. Who knows, maybe still too much. As i said i was too cold and irritated to process many rational thoughts

It is interesting that my first group after putting the floormat down was group #10 which im pretty sure is well below 1MOA. The 3 groups with the mat down were quite a bit tighter on the vertical aspect and perhaps the wind played with the horizontal a bit

for sure i was sitting way too erect at the table but thats sort of what i had to work with. on a warmer day id have experimented more. They do have a different larger table where i think I can lay across it sort of 1/3rd prone lol.

Anyway, at least i have some sort of direction to continue my experimentation and training

peace, JonJon