Point me towards a "Competition" worthy pistol.

[M8541Reaper]

Use your G17.

-Fuck the MOS system. Send it to JW to have the slide milled for an RMR (send it with it or buy one from them).

-Get an aftermarket competition trigger like the Vogel.

-Buy a kestrel/MDT/etc timer that can pick up dry fire splits.

-Shoot a lot more (training and competition -2 gun, USPSA, IDPA, random clubs, field matches) because most people who think they’re outshooting their modern guns, aren’t.

 

[higginsworksforme]

-Shoot a lot more (training and competition -2 gun, USPSA, IDPA, random clubs, field matches) because most people who think they’re outshooting their modern guns, aren’t.

Suck less. Get gud.

 

[MarshallDodge]

The only way you will improve is if you pick a gun, buy a bunch of ammo, and shoot more often. Practice 2 or 3 times a month if you can.

Do enjoy shooting the pistol that you have?

This is a big question because maybe you don't like shooting a Glock. I own one and rarely shoot it. There are other guns that I prefer to shoot more, and therefore I practice with them more. My recommendation would be to rent a few different models, and see if one of them jumps out as being something that you really like to shoot.

 

[teddy12b]

I do like my glocks, but I like most every gun out there so I don't only shoot one thing. I routinely dry fire many of my guns for training and practice, but my G17 is the bedside buddy and competition gun just because of the glock reputation for reliability and I shoot it very well. I have many alternatives including a Sig M17 I was dry firing last night. I 100% agree that the talent comes from firing and practice along with training from skilled instructors. I continue to do all of that.

I should also mention, at one time I did buy one of the Brownells G17 slides and played with the red dot, but I didn't get the reliability of the regular G17 and I won't give up any reliability. I wouldn't know where to start looking at a optic ready slide. If I were able to get a G34 optic ready slide that worked that might be something worth messing with.

 

[DubfromGA]

Dropped in the Glock Performance Trigger into my G34 and have been impressed. I still shoot my Staccato P (steel framed) better, though.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

For Glocks the new Glock made performance trigger is one of the best I have shot out of them.

Cajunized CZs are hard to beat for the money. The new CZ Shadow 2 Compact (I own a Dan Wesson, CZ Shadow 2 Compact, and Shadow 2) has noticeably more recoil than the full size counter parts. But even the compact has a long enough barrel to make hitting 100 yard targets holding nearly dead center with full powder loads relatively easy with practice. With chub loads not so much.

If you want a 2011 Then Staccato is a good place to start but their are others like Nighthawk, Atlas, and Infinity that make a better 2011 but now you are in the $4000 - $6000 range.

If you really want to get better here are a couple things you can do.

1) Invest in a Mantis System. This will measure and grade your handling/trigger pulls. It even tracks your follow through in live fire so you can improve your handling. https://mantisx.com/products/mantis-x10-elite

2) Invest in a CoolFire trainer. This allows you to practice with recoil and wall based projection systems etc. Fairly affordable and can be refilled using soda stream canisters. We have two of these and they are fantastic: https://coolfiretrainer.com/

Here is the chart for how the different handguns perform across real shooters:

 

[DubfromGA]

For Glocks the new Glock made performance trigger is one of the best I have shot out of them.

Cajunized CZs are hard to beat for the money. The new CZ Shadow 2 Compact (I own a Dan Wesson, CZ Shadow 2 Compact, and Shadow 2) has noticeably more recoil than the full size counter parts. But even the compact has a long enough barrel to make hitting 100 yard targets holding nearly dead center with full powder loads relatively easy with practice. With chub loads not so much.

If you want a 2011 Then Staccato is a good place to start but their are others like Nighthawk, Atlas, and Infinity that make a better 2011 but now you are in the $4000 - $6000 range.

Four years ago I had the itch for a 2011.

I only had strikers, wheelguns and my bread & butter 1911’s.


I ordered a Nighthawk TRS-Comp. A year into the wait NHC told me the wait would be at least another 8 months.


I bought a Staccato P-DPO to shoot in the meantime. Added an RMR to it. It was my first red dot gun.

I fell in love with that Staccato. Damn accurate and at speed, too. It redefined what I could do with a handgun. Fast hits in tight groups.


The TRS-C finally arrived. It is even faster. The compensator really works well.


If, however, I could go back and do it all over again…..I would have only bought the Staccato XC.

I did go on to add a C2 for carry.


I am a die hard 1911 guy, yet I have adopted well to these 2011’s with RMR optics.

It is nuts how much they have sped me up and increased my range.

The dots alone are a huge improvement.


Then the sweet single action trigger and the 2011 capacity.


Then add the compensator on one……hell yeah.

I have never taken a 2011 to the range and come home with spare ammo. I simply can’t help myself.



My advice is to get an Sig P320 X-Five Legion with red dot……or a G34-17-19 MOS with the new GPT trigger……..or ante up for the Staccato XC.

There will be noticeable performance boosts between each.

$1,100 for an outfitted G 34 MOS

$1,500 for outfitted P320 X-Five Legion

$ 5,000 for the Outfitted XC




I find the P320 X-Five Legion to be one highly stable gun. It is one heavy beast and you can add an Align Tactical gas pedal takedown lever to anchor that monster in hand. I have been EXTREMELY impressed with mine. Been testing some handloads in it lately.

Added a Dawson magwell to the G34 along with the GPT. I shoot it well, but not as well as the heavy P320 X-Five Legion.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

** Snip **

Very Nice, I really like the C2. But as an LTC Instructor I have to advise against carrying anything of value. In the instance you use it, you can count it lost. Some counties and some places will destroy the firearm even if you are found innocent (which is utter BS). So I always advise my students carry what you can afford to throw in the trash. And buy 2 of them. If you never end up using it for self defense then you have a great firearm to give to a kid or favorite nephew/niece etc.

What you will always find is that the hammer fired sidearms just shoot better than striker fired. Too many things going on in the trigger with strikers. That is why the CZ, STI, etc etc just perform better. They perform even better when they don't have a FPB (Firing Pin Block). Which is why the CZs don't. Just half cock and you are good to go.

I actually went down to Texas DPS headquarters for a number of training sessions etc. Had a conversation with Staccato and they said they DO NOT recommend their firearms for duty use. They said they would not pass the endurance or duty testing if given the chance. So take that for what it is worth. I like those guys though, and visit once to twice a year since they aren't far from me.

 

[teddy12b]

You guys are really making me want to buy one of everything and try it out.

When you guys looked at the Glock 34/17/19, did you consider the shadow systems clones? I don't have a care either way, but I'm just curious if they're taken seriously for competition or not. I haven't heard of their reliability being up there with Glocks, but I haven't heard of them being too far away though either.

 

[Kadams1563]

Very Nice, I really like the C2. But as an LTC Instructor I have to advise against carrying anything of value. In the instance you use it, you can count it lost. Some counties and some places will destroy the firearm even if you are found innocent (which is utter BS). So I always advise my students carry what you can afford to throw in the trash. And buy 2 of them. If you never end up using it for self defense then you have a great firearm to give to a kid or favorite nephew/niece etc.

What you will always find is that the hammer fired sidearms just shoot better than striker fired. Too many things going on in the trigger with strikers. That is why the CZ, STI, etc etc just perform better. They perform even better when they don't have a FPB (Firing Pin Block). Which is why the CZs don't. Just half cock and you are good to go.

I actually went down to Texas DPS headquarters for a number of training sessions etc. Had a conversation with Staccato and they said they DO NOT recommend their firearms for duty use. They said they would not pass the endurance or duty testing if given the chance. So take that for what it is worth. I like those guys though, and visit once to twice a year since they aren't far from me. View attachment 8317526View attachment 8317528

How does Staccato say their guns won’t stand up to duty use when they specifically market their guns to LEO’s

They single handily brought the 2011 back to life with law enforcement.

 

[Birddog6424]

How does Staccato say their guns won’t stand up to duty use when they specifically market their guns to LEO’s

They single handily brought the 2011 back to life with law enforcement.

That's what I was thinking.

1911 platforms have FAR more mechanical safeties than a Glock, Sig, or most any other striker fire gun. I mean honestly, Glock doesn't hardly have a safety at all. I saw a guy spud one next to his foot catching the trigger on a re-holster.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

How does Staccato say their guns won’t stand up to duty use when they specifically market their guns to LEO’s

They single handily brought the 2011 back to life with law enforcement.

I was down there back in November. The person I spoke to said it wouldn't pass the testing. Yes SRT, Swat etc use them here. But under special circumstances. However the person I spoke to straight up told me it wouldn't pass the destructive testing. So..... I don't know what else to tell.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

did you consider the shadow systems clones

They are actually based here in Plano. The only two I have ever fired one was great, the other had serious issues and shot horribly. It did have even more extra aftermarket on it so it was likely because of all the custom work. But either way that was my experience. Nice low sitting barrel config like most Glocks, so recoil is easily managed. I have no quarrels with them if you want to go the Glock route. But in my experience hammer driven sidearms ALWAYS have cleaner smoother triggers. You can also get that barrel profile down with many modern sidearms so I prefer hammer to striker fired and I prefer them without the FPB.

If you do and run Iron Sights I am a huge fan of XS Sights for them. Also based in Fort Worth and good people.

 

[davsco]

I was down there back in November. The person I spoke to said it wouldn't pass the testing. Yes SRT, Swat etc use them here. But under special circumstances. However the person I spoke to straight up told me it wouldn't pass the destructive testing. So..... I don't know what else to tell.

yeah that's bizarre. their (stacccato) own marketing says they have approval from all sorts of agencies and depts.

 

[SortOfClear]

I'd try to attend a couple quality handgun fundamental courses with the different handguns. Or at least, go to one course and replicate the training on your own time with each different handgun. Couple things I've found out myself:

1) Ammo-Either subsonics or have your velocity stay supersonic past your furthest engagement range. Descending thru the mach 1 threshold can be a liability.

2) What can you do, or are trying to do, on demand? A glock-type is fine for under 50m. Past that, and a SA trigger pull is pretty much required.

3) Red dot is best for any kind of game, if it's allowed. I second the direct milling for a specific optic. Lower placement, less failure points.

4) Define your standards/goals.
Maybe most important point. Put it on paper. You will find most of your answers by conducting practice in pursuit of your goals.

Some things to try:
a)20 rounds at 25m at your own pace
b)Holster draw to first round: <1 second
c)Concealed draw to 1st round: <2 seconds
d)Natural point of aim from draw-on target?
e)What are your shot split times? .25?

Press your limits. Bet results vary from pistol to pistol that you own.
Lots of Luck!

 

[308pirate]

The reason I'm asking is because I believe I can outshoot my Glocks on a precision marksmanship only aspect of the gun.

LOLOLOL

Let me see you shoot. Post video.

 

[Birddog6424]

LOLOLOL

Let me see you shoot. Post video.

I can kinda relate to what he's saying. I started in 3 Gun with a G17 with some Zev components, trigger, etc. Decent handgun.

At 50 yards on a slug plate, the Tanfoglio Limited that I owned at the time, and my 1911 in 45ACP all shot better groups. At 25ft on paper, not so much. So average engagement range won't show much I certainly agree with that. But the accuracy component is there.

My custom built 6" 2011 STI/SVI with a KKM barrel absolutely outshoots them all. My first steel target engagement in this video is a 50 yard plate, I double tap it pretty quick without issue.

 

[308pirate]

I can kinda relate to what he's saying. I started in 3 Gun with a G17 with some Zev components, trigger, etc. Decent handgun.

At 50 yards on a slug plate, the Tanfoglio Limited that I owned at the time, and my 1911 in 45ACP all shot better groups. At 25ft on paper, not so much. So average engagement range won't show much I certainly agree with that. But the accuracy component is there.

I'm not disputing that there are pistols that are more accurate than a stock or even slightly modified Glock. I have one.....I also have pistols that are more accurate than a stock Glock (CZ P-09) and pistols that are much more accurate (CZ Shadow 2).

What I am saying is that you have to be a very very good shooter to outrun even a Glock's accuracy in practical shooting. Maybe he is.

 

[TAGFIREARMS]

This would be perfect for what you are trying to do. If not at least you would look cool doing it
NHC President

 

[Birddog6424]

I'm not disputing that there are pistols that are more accurate than a stock or even slightly modified Glock. I have one.....I also have pistols that are more accurate than a stock Glock (CZ P-09) and pistols that are much more accurate (CZ Shadow 2).

What I am saying is that you have to be a very very good shooter to outrun even a Glock's accuracy in practical shooting. Maybe he is.

I see what you mean. I do agree with that.

It's the dang grip angle more than anything else that gets me. Spend any time behind my other guns and come back to the Glock and I'm high on everything.

 

[stanley_white]

There was a time in my life when I could out shoot a factory Glock 19.

During that time I was shooting hundreds of rounds week in and week out on someone else’s dime.

I will never be there again, and I am okay with that.

-Stan

 

[SanPatHogger]

Have you ever shot the G17 off of a sand bag? If it shoots tighter groups off a sandbag then you're not outshooting the gun.
What about an adjustable rear sight? Or different sights? Maybe a barrel? If you already like shooting that gun maybe just tune it up a little bit?

 

[teddy12b]

Have you ever shot the G17 off of a sand bag? If it shoots tighter groups off a sandbag then you're not outshooting the gun.
What about an adjustable rear sight? Or different sights? Maybe a barrel? If you already like shooting that gun maybe just tune it up a little bit?

I have not shot it off a sandbag. I never do that at competitions so it never crossed my mind to try that, but that's not a bad idea. My G17 has Trijicon HD sights, and if it wouldn't make sense to put a rear adjustable sight this gun they way it's currently setup.

I've actually been thinking about a G34 upper slide cut for a red dot or adjustable target sights that would just slide onto my Gen4 G17. I don't know where to start on something like that though.

 

[Kadams1563]

Life’s too short to shoot a Glock.

Just buy what you want who cares if the Glock will do “just as good” I know people who can outshoot the majority of others with stock glocks but they always like to shoot together pistols as well.

 

[ClangClang]

I shoot a lot of field matches and RnG matches - well over 50 by now, including Mammoth. Lots of RnG wins and finished top 20 at Mammoth.

For field matches like Mammoth, SAC, etc the most logical choice is a basic tupperware gun in your choice of frame size (compact or full) outfitted with your choice of accessories. It literally doesn't matter which one you select. Glock, CZ P10/P07/P09/, Canik, M&P, or P320. You could optionally go with one of the plastic-gripped Staccato C series or other 2011 platforms as well. Since you seem to have tried them all and they all work equally well for you, just go with Glock - it's got the widest accessory aftermarket, easiest to work on, and has the cheapest mags. And I say this as someone who doesn't care for Glocks at all.

Some people go with a steel frame gun (Staccato P series, CZ Shadows, etc) but the minor increase in performance is (IMHO) not worth the weight penalty when you're covering many miles by foot.

Get the grip stippled for traction when your hands are muddy (pretty damn common) and if you plan on equipping it for an RDS, get it direct milled and make sure you select a sealed emitter optic. Lots of good choices there too - Acro, MPS, 509T, Romeo 2, etc.

Final consideration is holster availability. There are plenty of very good custom kydex guys who can make you a Level 2 OWB holster, but the gold standard is Safariland to get their ALS locking system and those are only available for Glock, M&P, and Sig. And Staccato if you want to go that route.

 

[wvfarrier]

Sig 226 X-Five Legion
Itd been working well for me. Better than the Staccato XC I had

 

[RTH1800]

I read and re read the OP. I don't really see the problem. He shoots well with a light, inexpensive pistol. Might prefer a RDS. Get a RDS and roll.

 

[newageroman]

CZ for me. The S2s are a waste of money - I had one and sold it, then bought an SP-01 and built it with CGW and converted to SAO and it was better and saved $300. And you can get mag bases that hold 25. My current fav is an old israli surplus 75 frame that I built and converted to SAO with an A01 slide and the new Holosun 507 comp on top. I shoot pieces of leftover clays on the 50yd berm - I love the circle dot sight on pistol, you get to find the big ring quick but can use the center dot for long shots. If I had to haul one around I would look for a phantom that has a poly frame or one of the poly frame hammer fired CZs. If you go CZ and don't get the S2 just make sure it's a safety model if you want to convert it to SAO.
There is also a new platapus pistol that is CZ-75 style takes glock mags.
I found this thread doing research on first DMR match this year as I like shooting pistol at rifle ranges and shooting the 6ARC out to a grand.
Glocks suck. I've shot them and yes they are reliable accurate enough but I don't like the trigger dingus or striker fired pistols in general.

 

[st1650]

CZ for me. The S2s are a waste of money - I had one and sold it, then bought an SP-01 and built it with CGW and converted to SAO and it was better and saved $300. And you can get mag bases that hold 25. My current fav is an old israli surplus 75 frame that I built and converted to SAO with an A01 slide and the new Holosun 507 comp on top. I shoot pieces of leftover clays on the 50yd berm - I love the circle dot sight on pistol, you get to find the big ring quick but can use the center dot for long shots. If I had to haul one around I would look for a phantom that has a poly frame or one of the poly frame hammer fired CZs. If you go CZ and don't get the S2 just make sure it's a safety model if you want to convert it to SAO.
There is also a new platapus pistol that is CZ-75 style takes glock mags.
I found this thread doing research on first DMR match this year as I like shooting pistol at rifle ranges and shooting the 6ARC out to a grand.
Glocks suck. I've shot them and yes they are reliable accurate enough but I don't like the trigger dingus or striker fired pistols in general.

Why not do a DWX instead if you're going SAO. Seems like the best of both worlds.

 

[newageroman]

I would totally run a DWX but the $$$...

 

[308pirate]

I definitely fall into the camp of people who don't have a clue about USPSA, but I have seen some of them on TV and some of those shots are a legit challenge that's an accuracy challenge. It interests me honestly, because i like seeing how one stage is more of an accuracy challenge while the very next stage is a full run and blasting away.

Good USPSA stage designs will test several practical shooting skills, not just one.

This stage tested loading on the clock, shooting your way into and out of position, wide and narrow transitions, near to far to near transitions, transitions from hoser targets to small steel and tight partials all in several combinations.

 

[308pirate]

CZ for me. The S2s are a waste of money - I had one and sold it, then bought an SP-01 and built it with CGW and converted to SAO and it was better and saved $300. And you can get mag bases that hold 25. My current fav is an old israli surplus 75 frame that I built and converted to SAO with an A01 slide and the new Holosun 507 comp on top. I shoot pieces of leftover clays on the 50yd berm - I love the circle dot sight on pistol, you get to find the big ring quick but can use the center dot for long shots. If I had to haul one around I would look for a phantom that has a poly frame or one of the poly frame hammer fired CZs.

EL OH EL