Sidearms & Scatterguns Police pistol quals

[308pirate]

Does anyone know of any pistol quals that are actually challenging?

Just for shits and grins I shot today the latest revisions of both the OPOTA (Ohio Peace Office Training Academy) and FBI pistol quals, and let's just say if you fail those you really need help.

The FBI qual was mildly entertaining but not that hard. I scored a 49/50 dropping one only at 25 yrds, and I made every single par time with ease. Some of the strings starting from the ready I shot from the holster to try to make it a little more sporty, still no problem making par.

The Ohio qual.....well you would need to be borderline retarded to fail this. And if you're a C class USPSA shooter and don't clean it with a perfect hundo, well hang your head in shame. Shooting 100% is stupid easy on this one.

I didn't have the right targets so I used what I have: USPSA classic targets (the turtles). Anything outside the C zone = miss.

Here's what I shot. Videos are not me. They're just examples.

OPOTA (mius all the scan and assess range theatrics). Score: 25/25


FBI. Score 49/50


Shot both with an RMR-equipped CZ P-09. Tomorrow I'll do both with a S&W 3" Model 65 (kinda sorta old school FBI service pistol)

 

[Powder_Burns]

Been a long time but the miami-dade qual criteria at the time was something along the lines of being able to pull a d/a trigger 10 times in under 7 seconds, hitting a target at 7yd 3 times from high/retention, and a few positionals at 15yd or so. It was stupid easy, but people still managed to fail it and had to re-certify.

 

[ashworth]

The Federal Air Marshall Qualification is tough , concealed and tight time limits. One dropped shot or .1 sec over time is a failure. It makes a good standard when a shooter is feeling “I’m hot shit with this here pistol“.

 

[308pirate]

The Federal Air Marshall Qualification is tough , concealed and tight time limits. One dropped shot or .1 sec over time is a failure. It makes a good standard when a shooter is feeling “I’m hot shit with this here pistol“.

Thanks. Will look for that.

 

[benchmstr]

Our shit changes every year...it’s always easy..and people always fail it either by terrible shooting or running out of time...it’s an amazing thing to watch lol

bench

 

[sea2summit]

The Federal Air Marshall Qualification is tough , concealed and tight time limits. One dropped shot or .1 sec over time is a failure. It makes a good standard when a shooter is feeling “I’m hot shit with this here pistol“.

I think that one and the FBI are two of the very few that do a lot of the qualification from concealed holsters.

 

[davsco]

yeah i aced the dhs ice qual the first time i did it, actually disappointed at the low standards required.

 

[ken226]

Does anyone know of any pistol quals that are actually challenging?

Just for shits and grins I shot today the latest revisions of both the OPOTA (Ohio Peace Office Training Academy) and FBI pistol quals, and let's just say if you fail those you really need help.

The FBI qual was mildly entertaining but not that hard. I scored a 49/50 dropping one only at 25 yrds, and I made every single par time with ease. Some of the strings starting from the ready I shot from the holster to try to make it a little more sporty, still no problem making par.o

The Ohio qual.....well you would need to be borderline retarded to fail this. And if you're a C class USPSA shooter and don't clean it with a perfect hundo, well hang your head in shame. Shooting 100% is stupid easy on this one.

I didn't have the right targets so I used what I have: USPSA classic targets (the turtles). Anything outside the C zone = miss.

Here's what I shot. Videos are not me. They're just examples.

OPOTA (mius all the scan and assess range theatrics). Score: 25/25


FBI. Score 49/50


Shot both with an RMR-equipped CZ P-09. Tomorrow I'll do both with a S&W 3" Model 65 (kinda sorta old school FBI service pistol)

Most law enforcement qualification courses will have a pretty easy minimum passing score. There are a few that are tough to clean though.

Being an accomplished competitive shooter is not one of the job requirements. None of these LE agencies are interested in the nightmare or expense of trying to train an entire workforce up to USPSA - C standards.

Only hiring 99th percentile pistol shooters would be like an engineering firm only hiring Summa Cum Laude degrees. Compared to the average US citizen, even a C shooter is likely 99th or better percentile.

LE qualifications are designed so that the average Joe can meet the minimum passing score with about 80 hours of training. Usually half of that training is devoted to shotgun and carbine, so realistically about 40 hours of pistol training, and typically, at-best with a lower-end production class gun. By lower-end, I mean they aren't going to be qualifying with a g34 or m&p pro. It's usually something like a Glock 23, 19 or USP compact size gun.

You wouldn't think that training the average Joe up to that level should be very hard, but it is. Ego being what it is, most people are already pretty sure they're badasses, and putting in time and money, out-of pocket, for something that your already a badass at, rarely happens. Most only even qualify because it's required, let alone spend their own time/money to do it.

Try the US Border Patrol qualification. It's one of those that's easy to pass, but a bit more challenging to shoot clean. Shoot it with something like a Glock 23 or 19. If you can't find the qual course/scoring online, shoot me a PM.

 

[A&8's]

The Federal Air Marshall Qualification is tough , concealed and tight time limits. One dropped shot or .1 sec over time is a failure. It makes a good standard when a shooter is feeling “I’m hot shit with this here pistol“.

We use the FAM COF at work for our SORT guys. It is tough...doable, but tough. The biggest thing is, 1 miss of the time restraint and you fail the entire course. That puts a little more stress. lol

I was going to attach the file, but all I have it in is a word doc, which isn't accepted here. So, here's a copy and paste of it:

FAM (Federal Air Marshall) pistol qualification:​

Target: FBI-QIT-97 (7 yards)

Scoring: Inner = 5pts, Outer = 2pts, Miss = 0 (135pts min to pass)

NOTE: Failure to meet ANY par time results in failure of ENTIRE course.

Stage 1: 2 rounds
From a concealed holster, face a single target at 7 yards. At the start signal, draw and fire one round. Carefully holster and repeat for a total of two single-round strings. The combined time for both strings cannot exceed 3.3 seconds—an average of 1.65 seconds per string.

Stage 2: 4 rounds
From a low ready, face the same single target and, at the start signal, deliver two rounds (as a controlled pair). Repeat this once (two pairs; a total of four rounds). The combined time for both strings cannot exceed 2.7 seconds—an average of 1.35 seconds per string.

Stage 3: 6 rounds
From low ready, fire six rounds into the single target in one rapid and continuous string. This is done once, and the par time is 3 seconds for the six rounds fired.

Stage 4: 4 rounds; 2 magazines
With a fully loaded handgun, face a single target at 7 yards from low ready. Fire one round, reload, then fire one more. Repeat for two strings and four rounds total. The par time for the four rounds is 6.5 seconds—an average of 3.25 seconds per run.

Stage 5: 4 rounds
From low ready, fire one round each at two targets spaced 3 yards apart. Repeat this once for a total of four rounds in two strings. The combined par time for both strings cannot exceed 3.3 seconds—an average of 1.65 seconds per string.

Stage 6: 6 rounds
Three targets are placed 3 yards apart. The shooter starts from the holster under a concealment garment, facing up range with their back to the targets. At the start signal, turn, draw and place one round into each target. Repeat this for a total of six rounds. The shooter will be required to turn to their right for one string and to their left for the other. The total par time for both strings cannot exceed 7 seconds—an average of 3.5 seconds per string.

Stage 7: 4 rounds; 2 magazines
Load one round into the chamber, leaving the empty magazine in the gun. From a standing low ready, fire one round. The slide locks back. Drop to one knee, reload and fire one more round. Repeat for two, two-round strings. The total time cannot exceed 8 seconds—a 4-second average per string.

 

[1500varmint]

Does anyone know of any pistol quals that are actually challenging?

Just for shits and grins I shot today the latest revisions of both the OPOTA (Ohio Peace Office Training Academy) and FBI pistol quals, and let's just say if you fail those you really need help.

The FBI qual was mildly entertaining but not that hard. I scored a 49/50 dropping one only at 25 yrds, and I made every single par time with ease. Some of the strings starting from the ready I shot from the holster to try to make it a little more sporty, still no problem making par.

The Ohio qual.....well you would need to be borderline retarded to fail this. And if you're a C class USPSA shooter and don't clean it with a perfect hundo, well hang your head in shame. Shooting 100% is stupid easy on this one.

I didn't have the right targets so I used what I have: USPSA classic targets (the turtles). Anything outside the C zone = miss.

Here's what I shot. Videos are not me. They're just examples.

OPOTA (mius all the scan and assess range theatrics). Score: 25/25


FBI. Score 49/50


Shot both with an RMR-equipped CZ P-09. Tomorrow I'll do both with a S&W 3" Model 65 (kinda sorta old school FBI service pistol)

Thanks for sharing these. The indoor range by me that runs practice action shooting matches just canceled their season so I'll need something to do on my own.

 

[308pirate]

Most law enforcement qualification courses will have a pretty easy minimum passing score. There are a few that are tough to clean though.

Being an accomplished competitive shooter is not one of the job requirements. None of these LE agencies are interested in the nightmare or expense of trying to train an entire workforce up to USPSA - C standards.

Only hiring 99th percentile pistol shooters would be like an engineering firm only hiring Summa Cum Laude degrees. Compared to the average US citizen, even a C shooter is likely 99th or better percentile.

LE qualifications are designed so that the average Joe can meet the minimum passing score with about 80 hours of training. Usually half of that training is devoted to shotgun and carbine, so realistically about 40 hours of pistol training, and typically, at-best with a lower-end production class gun. By lower-end, I mean they aren't going to be qualifying with a g34 or m&p pro. It's usually something like a Glock 23, 19 or USP compact size gun.

You wouldn't think that training the average Joe up to that level should be very hard, but it is. Ego being what it is, most people are already pretty sure they're badasses, and putting in time and money, out-of pocket, for something that your already a badass at, rarely happens. Most only even qualify because it's required, let alone spend their own time/money to do it.

Try the US Border Patrol qualification. It's one of those that's easy to pass, but a bit more challenging to shoot clean. Shoot it with something like a Glock 23 or 19. If you can't find the qual course/scoring online, shoot me a PM.

There's no need to get defensive. It is what it is.

Part of the reason I pay attention to this is because the general public assumes that anyone with a police or military uniform is automatically an expert shooter and a fountain of firearms knowledge. That perception could not be further from the truth.

All my competition guns are normal service pistols with a minor trigger job/slightly lighter springs. Anyone with average mechanical ability can do it.

Send me or post up the USBP qual course. I'd like to try it.

 

[308pirate]

We use the FAM COF at work for our SORT guys. It is tough...doable, but tough. The biggest thing is, 1 miss of the time restraint and you fail the entire course. That puts a little more stress. lol

I was going to attach the file, but all I have it in is a word doc, which isn't accepted here. So, here's a copy and paste of it:

FAM (Federal Air Marshall) pistol qualification:​

Target: FBI-QIT-97 (7 yards)

Scoring: Inner = 5pts, Outer = 2pts, Miss = 0

NOTE: Failure to meet ANY par time results in failure of ENTIRE course.

Stage 1: 2 rounds
From a concealed holster, face a single target at 7 yards. At the start signal, draw and fire one round. Carefully holster and repeat for a total of two single-round strings. The combined time for both strings cannot exceed 3.3 seconds—an average of 1.65 seconds per string.

Stage 2: 4 rounds
From a low ready, face the same single target and, at the start signal, deliver two rounds (as a controlled pair). Repeat this once (two pairs; a total of four rounds). The combined time for both strings cannot exceed 2.7 seconds—an average of 1.35 seconds per string.

Stage 3: 6 rounds
From low ready, fire six rounds into the single target in one rapid and continuous string. This is done once, and the par time is 3 seconds for the six rounds fired.

Stage 4: 4 rounds; 2 magazines
With a fully loaded handgun, face a single target at 7 yards from low ready. Fire one round, reload, then fire one more. Repeat for two strings and four rounds total. The par time for the four rounds is 6.5 seconds—an average of 3.25 seconds per run.

Stage 5: 4 rounds
From low ready, fire one round each at two targets spaced 3 yards apart. Repeat this once for a total of four rounds in two strings. The combined par time for both strings cannot exceed 3.3 seconds—an average of 1.65 seconds per string.

Stage 6: 6 rounds
Three targets are placed 3 yards apart. The shooter starts from the holster under a concealment garment, facing up range with their back to the targets. At the start signal, turn, draw and place one round into each target. Repeat this for a total of six rounds. The shooter will be required to turn to their right for one string and to their left for the other. The total par time for both strings cannot exceed 7 seconds—an average of 3.5 seconds per string.

Stage 7: 4 rounds; 2 magazines
Load one round into the chamber, leaving the empty magazine in the gun. From a standing low ready, fire one round. The slide locks back. Drop to one knee, reload and fire one more round. Repeat for two, two-round strings. The total time cannot exceed 8 seconds—a 4-second average per string.

That is sporty. I'll try it and report back.

It will be a couple of weeks since I'll be on vacation all next week.

 

[308pirate]

The indoor range by me that runs practice action shooting matches just canceled their season so I'll need something to do on my own.

WTF...…..WHY?

 

[powdahound76]

Cause flying lead makes the ‘Rona more contagious and deadly of course.

@308pirate - run one of those drills in a full gas mask with a HR of 145.

Not LARPing. Just good practice.

These pukes may end up getting gas before its all done. Easier to shoot with a mask than coughing and with eyes crying like a leftist about a garage pull.

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate - run one of those drills in a full gas mask with a HR of 145.

I need to buy one

 

[powdahound76]

If you are in a small town, see about an old SCBA mask from the FD. We had old ones that werent acceptable for structure use we used to teach donning/doffing and stuff.
The Scott ones we had used an attachment for 2x 3m filters.

Good coverage and seal up like no tomorrow. After a short time, you will get fogging from sweat to increase the suck factor.

 

[1500varmint]

WTF...…..WHY?

Mainly because it's in NJ.

 

[308pirate]

If you are in a small town, see about an old SCBA mask from the FD. We had old ones that werent acceptable for structure use we used to teach donning/doffing and stuff.
The Scott ones we had used an attachment for 2x 3m filters.

Good coverage and seal up like no tomorrow. After a short time, you will get fogging from sweat to increase the suck factor.

I've worn the MCU-2/P during general quarters while sailing through the straits of Hormuz.

I have embraced the suck before.

 

[Viper1973]

Part of the reason I pay attention to this is because the general public assumes that anyone with a police or military uniform is automatically an expert shooter and a fountain of firearms knowledge. That perception could not be further from the truth.

lol.... OMG... Truer words were never spoken!

I've done lots of armorers service for local LEO training. If I were being held hostage and any of them had to take a head shot to save me my money would be on the bad guy not killing me and getting struck by 'friendly' fire. Some of these folks can't hit a 3'x3' target to save their life - little lone a bullseye. It also ALWAYS seems to be department's resident 'expert'.

 

[WATERWALKER]

From Ken226:

“Try the US Border Patrol qualification. It's one of those that's easy to pass, but a bit more challenging to shoot clean. Shoot it with something like a Glock 23 or 19. If you can't find the qual course/scoring online, shoot me a PM.”

I’ve shot this qual course a time or two over the years. It’s a decent qual course to shoot well. I’m generally a low to mid 350s shooter on turning targets. The P2000 w/ LEM trigger is less than desirable, but has little effect on my overall score vs shooting a Glock pistol or similar.

@308pirate, I’ve got another course I’ll send you that is decent as well, but I’ll be out of the office for another week.

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate, I’ve got another course I’ll send you that is decent as well, but I’ll be out of the office for another week.

Appreciate it. No worries on the timeframe.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The P2000 w/ LEM trigger is less than desirable, but has little effect on my overall score vs shooting a Glock pistol or similar.

On our COF, there has been little improvement among those shooting 345 or better while transitioning to the Glock 47.

However, the shooters that were shooting 310 to 330 w/the P2000 have seen an average of about 20pts improvement once transitioned to the Glock.

The largest improvement was a guy that was struggling to qualify w/P2000 but shot a 310 w/the G47.

 

[WATERWALKER]

Only out FIs have transitioned thus far. I shot a good qual but had to push my rear sight a bit. I shot a fist-sized group back to 15 but my group was to the left. I lost a bunch at 25 in the 4 ring. I bumped the rear sight on the advice of a former pro shooter. I shot some groups for him back to 15 & he says “What do you want to tell you? You’re grip & trigger press look great. I’d move the rear sight.” So I moved the rear sight & I’m center mass again at 25.
*Problem solved.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Only out FIs have transitioned thus far. I shot a good qual but had to push my rear sight a bit. I shot a fist-sized group back to 15 but my group was to the left. I lost a bunch at 25 in the 4 ring. I bumped the rear sight on the advice of a former pro shooter. I shot some groups for him back to 15 & he says “What do you want to tell you? You’re grip & trigger press look great. I’d move the rear sight.” So I moved the rear sight & I’m center mass again at 25.
*Problem solved.

For whatever reason, about 10-20% of pistols we have received have needed just a very slight push right on the rear sight as well.

Seems there was one cross-eyed sumbitch somewhere installing these sights.

 

[WATERWALKER]

No kidding there! We’ve had several come out of the box the same way. I’m not sure if the Ameriglow sights need to grow on me or if I just prefer the Trijicon night sights. Ameriglow says to line the three dots up evenly & press the trigger. I’m not a fan, so I leveled them off & centered the front sight up equidistant & went from there. I shot a bit of a high group but only lost like two points overall due to said issue. If I level the sights off at the 4/5 ring I’m center mass. *FWIW, The G19 models all seemed to shoot POA/POI. The sample size being all of 3.

*I used the G17 option as the 47 wasn’t available.


Judging by looking at the Ameriglow calculator my front sight is either .024” too short or my rear sight is .024” too high. I noticed this at 15 yards & accounted for it at 25. Four out of five of us experienced this issue. Have y’all seen this as well?

 

[Anb618]

Whatever you do, don’t bother shooting the IL minimum firearms qualification standard. It’s a complete joke.

https://www.ilga.gov/commission/Jcar/admincode/020/02001720ZZ9996CR.html

If anyone can track down the DEA’s pistol qual, it’s a pretty challenging course of fire. I tried briefly, but my internet research skills have never been great. Plenty of shooting/moving incorporated, and if I remember correctly it also stretches out to 50 yards.

 

[Mike4837]

If you find a course to be too easy run it again with double the distance or half the time. Or double the distance AND half the time. Or triple the distance etc. Stole that from Bob Vogel.

 

[Snuby642]

My son was disappointed at standard qualification for le in Texas and in Louisiana.

He had opportunity to shoot while young, then the basic military quals.

Also disappointed then he got in with some higher level military training.

Those guys were some badass trainers and he was up on his game.

He got to train with swat in one le role and did very well due to mil training.

He is getting his feet wet in prs and going to build a 6mm varient of some kind from scratch. He allready has a stock roughed out for that build and is finishing his first 6.5 cm build from barrel blank and stock blank.

He has injuries preventing military and le work so going to gunsmith and shoot prs to kill boredom .

Surprise to find le qualifying to not be at a higher level.

I shot idpa against some le from a large department and they cleaned my clock pretty much, then found out a good portion were swat guys.

Above my pay grade there. Lol

 

[WATERWALKER]

LE guys are like everyone else as far as shooting is concerned; not everyone is a gun guy or shoots in their free time nor are they willing to pay for training on their own dime. You see a wide range of people on ranges from those who shoot OK to those who shoot a smokin’ qual score. Believe me when I say there’s more to shooting than crushing a qual course.

Some of us like to shoot in our free time & have no issues w/ paying for training or shooting PRS, NRL, IPSC or IDPA matches. It all comes down to whether you dig shooting sports or not.

 

[Snuby642]

I have actually helped a couple of people that struggled at quals.

Thier main problem was not asking instructors the right questions and or needing a small amount of personal training till it clicked.

I imagine there is not enough class time for helping a straggler.

Some people are intimidated in a large class and set themselves up for failure with worry.

An hour, a couple of soft shooting guns suppressed works nice for a start.

Once they get over the unknown they normally want to dirty everything in the bag and are ready to receive instructions and qualify normally.

I have worked with a few people that shook when a gun was placed in thier hands. I slowed my role softened up instruction and got them shooting.

I'm sure the le trainers would have given up on those folks quickly.

Have you ever had a student cry because someone had f-ed them up and work with them till they could shoot .

 

[WATERWALKER]

I have actually helped a couple of people that struggled at quals.

Thier main problem was not asking instructors the right questions and or needing a small amount of personal training till it clicked.

I imagine there is not enough class time for helping a straggler.

Some people are intimidated in a large class and set themselves up for failure with worry.

An hour, a couple of soft shooting guns suppressed works nice for a start.

Once they get over the unknown they normally want to dirty everything in the bag and are ready to receive instructions and qualify normally.

I have worked with a few people that shook when a gun was placed in thier hands. I slowed my role softened up instruction and got them shooting.

I'm sure the le trainers would have given up on those folks quickly.

Have you ever had a student cry because someone had f-ed them up and work with them till they could shoot .

Firstly, we don't teach to pass a qual; we teach to get maximum performance from each student. If a student needs additional instruction we’ll spend whatever time necessary to bring that person up to speed. We’ll start w/ the shooter’s platform, grip, presentation, sight alignment / sight picture, trigger press, breathing & follow through. Although we teach shotgun & rifle, most of our time is spent teaching pistol shooting.

To answer your question above, I’ve never seen anyone cry because they received poor instruction from my agency. Our pistol program is solid. Usually it’s small tweaks & a personal will to succeed that makes a shooter.

I’ve had students that needed a lot of help to normally badass shooters who developed an issue along the way & just needed a minor tweak to bring their abilities back to speed.

A few years ago I wanted to push my pistol skills to a higher level. I took a class w/ Ed Head of Gunsite Academy. Ed is an incredible instructor & I saw immediate results. That was money well spent. We’re all students & we should be constantly striving to perform better. The day you have nothing left to learn is the day you have nothing left to contribute.

 

[Snuby642]

Well @waterwaIker I'm sure your range and class are a step above par.

Some large very desirable departments used the range as a way to thin the herd as quotas changed and applicants came from all four corners of the US in droves.

I suppose I should clarify that a couple of the crybabies I worked with were scared women that we were bringing into the shooting sports / personal defense.

None of the crybabies and people shaking in thier boots were le.

All were sent to higher levels of training once calmed down and hitting targets.

And though I was nra certified no funds were ever charged.

My family likes to help fledgling shooters out to increase our numbers and just the self satisfaction of it.

So if in your world thats wrong
It's a sad day for the shooting sports in my opinion.

Side note everyone we helped got over thier problem and went on to pass quals.

 

[Ankeny]

If you find a course to be too easy run it again with double the distance or half the time. Or double the distance AND half the time. Or triple the distance etc. Stole that from Bob Vogel.

Good idea and a positive approach. When people ask me how to get better hits I usually tell them to get closer or get a bigger target. FWIW, like most things in life, the difficulty level of a qualification course is relative. I personally don't find the FAM course all that difficult. But it is definitely a cut above most state level qualification courses of fire. The Wyoming course is much tougher that it was back in the day when it was essentially the front half of the PPC. Yet, even today a decent IDPA or USPSA shooter would have plenty of time left over and the distances could be increased.

 

[308pirate]

One reason I started shooting some of these police quals is because the local IDPA club always skips one match and instead puts up like four or five police qualification shoots. It was a perfect day for it today because it's hot as fuck and no one wants to run around with a concealed pistol. All the quals we did have minimal movement.

We shot:

• OPOTA (Ohio police training academy) qualification
• Dept of Homeland Security (which matches exactly the USBP test that @ken226 sent me)
• USMC (I think this is the one that they do in regular infantry batallions, not MARSOC): https://rifleshooter.com/2015/07/shooting-the-usmc-pistol-qualification-combat-pistol-program-cpp/
• Federal Air Marshalls
• FBI (50 shot 2019 version)

Results

• OPOTA: 24/25, pass. Did it with a revolver and shanked one off the preferred area in one of the weak hand strings.
• DHS: 250/250, pass. Not all that challenging
• USMC: 364/400, just made Expert. Shot two over time at the 25 yard line, otherwise this would have been in the high 370s or low 380s
• FAM: Fail. Now this one was sporty. I was GO on every stage with zero points dropped all the way to the second string of the last drill (draw, fire one, reload from slide lock while kneeling, fire one). The first one of those was a tick over 3 sec. The second one of those I fumbled the reload and busted par.
• FBI: pass 98/100 (missed the bottle with one shot)

I shot all the tests, except OPOTA, with a CZ P-09 with an RMR. I shot the OPOTA test with a S&W 3" Model 65.

 

[308pirate]

Whatever you do, don’t bother shooting the IL minimum firearms qualification standard. It’s a complete joke.

https://www.ilga.gov/commission/Jcar/admincode/020/02001720ZZ9996CR.html

Wow

 

[ken226]

One reason I started shooting some of these police quals is because the local IDPA club always skips one match and instead puts up like four or five police qualification shoots. It was a perfect day for it today because it's hot as fuck and no one wants to run around with a concealed pistol. All the quals we did have minimal movement.

We shot:

• OPOTA (Ohio police training academy) qualification
• Dept of Homeland Security (which matches exactly the USBP test that @ken226 sent me)
  
• DHS: 250/250, pass. Not all that challenging
  

• 
  
  The USBP qualification is 72 rounds, 360 points possible, and goes from 1.5 yards to 25.
  
  The DHS CBP/OFO qualification is 50 rounds, 250 points possible and goes from 1.5 yards to 15.
  
  The two agencies do not shoot the same qualification course. The CBP/OFO qualification has a headshot and hip girdle stage, the USBP qualification does not.
  
  There are several of us in this thread with first hand knowledge of the qualification courses used by the 2 biggest sub-agencies within DHS CBP, those being BP and OFO.
  
  I'm just mentioning this, to point out that I'm not guessing.
  
  Are you sure you didn't shoot the CBP/OFO qualification? It's quite a bit different than the BP qual.

 

[308pirate]

The targets.
OPOTA

DHS

USMC

FBI

 

[308pirate]

• 
  
  The USBP qualification is 72 rounds, 360 points possible, and goes from 1.5 yards to 25.
  
  The DHS CBP/OFO qualification is 50 rounds, 250 points possible and goes from 1.5 yards to 15.
  
  The two agencies do not shoot the same qualification course.
  
  Are you sure you didn't shoot the CBP/OFO qualification? It's quite a bit different than the BP qual.

This is the DHS test we shot today: https://www.range365.com/shoot-dhs-qualification-test/

I'll have to give the Border Patrol test a whirl.

 

[ken226]

This is the DHS test we shot today: https://www.range365.com/shoot-dhs-qualification-test/

I'll have to give the Border Patrol test a whirl.

Yes, that's the OFO qualification. (The blue shirt Customs guys that pester you at the POE re-entering the US)

There are a few versions of it used by various subagencies within CBP. If I remember correctly, OFO shoots the last stage @ 15 yards. I've shot it a few times, and find it pretty easy to clean. (By clean, I mean a 100% score on turning targets)

I've been shooting USPSA and PPC since I was a kid, so I don't find any of these LE qual courses to be particularly hard to clean.

If you don't find the BP qualification to be a challenge, shoot it, using the normal scoring method, same distances and times, but use the TQ15-R.

My best ever score using the TQ15-R is a 358 (but, I shot it with a Sig p226x5 and 115grn Atlanta Arms Match 9mm, NOT a P2000). I have never cleaned the BP qual using the TQ15-R target. Yet! Though, I knew a couple guys who could.

The TQ15-R is a just a half scale TQ15.

US Customs TQ-15R - Reduced 25 Yd Target - Box of 1000

US Customs TQ-15R - Reduced TQ-15 - 25 Yards Official Law Enforcement 8-1/2' x 12' Target Paper 1000 Per Carton

www.speedwelltargets.com

For comparison, this is the TQ15 and IPSC, scaled in CAD. They are comparable, but different.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Part of the reason I pay attention to this is because the general public assumes that anyone with a police or military uniform is automatically an expert shooter and a fountain of firearms knowledge. That perception could not be further from the truth.

Governor Doctor Northam went into the Army Medical Corp to pay of medical school, 8 years and left as a Major, but says there is no difference between an AR15 and an M16.

 

[308pirate]

Governor Doctor Northam went into the Army Medical Corp to pay of medical school, 8 years and left as a Major, but says there is no difference between an AR15 and an M16.

That's the Army for you

 

[ken226]

@308pirate

Not sure if it matters, but that 50 round CBP/OFO qualification is shot on the cat-1 target.

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate

Not sure if it matters, but that 50 round CBP/OFO qualification is shot on the cat-1 target.

The outcome would have been the same

 

[Dthomas3523]

All LE quals are basically CYA.

For *most* (there are always exceptions) LE gunfights, tactics/speed wins more so than marksmanship.

I’ll have to dig up the studies and numbers but most of the time it’s something like:

4sec or less total time
3yds average
60% at night
80% chance of being shot if standing still
50% chance of being shot if moving
25% chance of being shot if seeking cover
70% ish don’t remember referencing their sights

I also remember one study that showed expert shooters (like top competition shooters) were only about 10% more accurate @ 15 feet and in than novice shooters.

 

[TACC]

The Federal Air Marshall Qualification is tough , concealed and tight time limits. One dropped shot or .1 sec over time is a failure. It makes a good standard when a shooter is feeling “I’m hot shit with this here pistol“.

I agree this is a challenging qual.

 

[308pirate]

All LE quals are basically CYA

It seems that way

For *most* (there are always exceptions) LE gunfights, tactics/speed wins more so than marksmanship.

None of the LE qual courses of fire I've seen even consider anything resembling tactics (hard to do I admit) and their time limits are ridiculously generous. So the focus appears to be in the wrong places

I also remember one study that showed expert shooters (like top competition shooters) were only about 10% more accurate @ 15 feet and in than novice shooters.

On the surface that sounds groovy, except that it's not. Put novices to shoot a demanding target like Dot Torture at 5 yards and watch them fold. In any case, a top competitor will absolutely smoke a novice when it comes to speed while matching or exceeding the novice's accuracy.

 

[SD Carpenter]

I know Bob Vogel had fun with his departments qual and multiplied the distance by 3 and cut the time in half. His last round was over 50 yards or some nonsense

 

[Dthomas3523]

It seems that way


None of the LE qual courses of fire I've seen even consider anything resembling tactics (hard to do I admit) and their time limits are ridiculously generous. So the focus appears to be in the wrong places

On the surface that sounds groovy, except that it's not. Put novices to shoot a demanding target like Dot Torture at 5 yards and watch them fold. In any case, a top competitor will absolutely smoke a novice when it comes to speed while matching or exceeding the novice's accuracy.

Dot torture is apples to oranges. The study was combat efficiency, not minute marksmanship. Rounds on torso are rounds on torso. They did find the top shooters were twice as fast out of the holster. Which needs to be improved upon.

Typically, for most shooters when running speed drills properly for a combat scenario in which LE is likely to be in (surprised and fast), if you’re shooting small groups, you’re shooting too slow.

Specialty units such as swat or tactical units is a different story. Their gunfights are typically much different and accurate fire is what ends those (ideally).

Dept/agencies should be more focused on speed/movement/tactics. But, in this age of hyper sensitivity, proficiency/cya is what matters most.

 

[MosesTheTank]

I am not aware of any quals that test tactics. If you can make USPSA B with your duty rig you are definitely doing doing OK. However, it's not the standards that I think are the best test, it's the field courses. Anyone who is interested in finding out where they sit with their pistol skills should compete in a USPSA sectional/state match.

If you are looking for the combination of weapons skills, tactics, and fitness, I have no idea and would love to hear if someone knows of such an event.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I am not aware of any quals that test tactics. If you can make USPSA B with your duty rig you are definitely doing doing OK. However, it's not the standards that I think are the best test, it's the field courses. Anyone who is interested in finding out where they sit with their pistol skills should compete in a USPSA sectional/state match.

If you are looking for the combination of weapons skills, tactics, and fitness, I have no idea and would love to hear if someone knows of such an event.

There really are none.

I have found zero pistol comps that are remotely close to what a typical LE gunfight with sidearm is like.

Basically, it’s as fast as possible out of the holster, and then frantic/fast offlining while putting rounds on torso.

The latest video of the female officer shooting the guy with a knife is a great example.

It would be big time liability to run a comp that mimics this.