Night Vision Poor Man’s MAWL

[Ironman8]

Something I’ve been mulling over for a few days is what would those in the know say about a separate IR illuminator and IR laser run on a dual tape switch as an alternative to what’s on the market today.

Theres a huge gap in price and performance from the (US Made) all-in-one units that’s currently out there...in my mind that gap starts at the DBAL A3 and ends with the MAWL. Anything else I just don’t see as contenders. But I don’t see many setups using a separate illum/laser system...(is this a clue?)

I was thinking a CQBL-1 combined with something like the Modlite on a dual tape switch where one push of the button gives me IR spectrum.

All I want is acceptable capability out to 100yds or a touch further. My only hangup with this setup is that I really don’t like tape switches and there’s no good way to activate both if the tape switch fails.

The other option is just deal with the limitation of the DBAL and carry a handheld for PID purposes if needed.

I haven’t quite come around to the third option.....which is: F-it just buy the MAWL

 

[WhereNow&How]

Something I’ve been mulling over for a few days is what would those in the know say about a separate IR illuminator and IR laser run on a dual tape switch as an alternative to what’s on the market today.

Theres a huge gap in price and performance from the (US Made) all-in-one units that’s currently out there...in my mind that gap starts at the DBAL A3 and ends with the MAWL. Anything else I just don’t see as contenders. But I don’t see many setups using a separate illum/laser system...(is this a clue?)

I was thinking a CQB-L combined with something like the Modlite on a dual tape switch where one push of the button gives me IR spectrum.

All I want is acceptable capability out to 100yds or a touch further. My only hangup with this setup is that I really don’t like tape switches and there’s no good way to activate both if the tape switch fails.

The other option is just deal with the limitation of the DBAL and carry a handheld for PID purposes if needed.

I haven’t quite come around to the third option.....which is: F-it just buy the MAWL

Here, this might help you out. I run Luna ELIR-3 slaved to Dbal A3's. It will way outperform a MAWL in every category and situation. I can afford a MAWL, but would not waste my money on it because it is way overpriced and way under delivers in some very important categories. IMHO. Others mileage may vary.

I also have the Modlite 850 IR head and can easily run it also. It is a very nice and strong illuminator but throws out a pretty substantial visible glow (to a human naked eye) and is a much wider (area type) beam than a Luna ELIR-3.

Night Vision - What IR Illuminator/White Light for Carbine? + Dual switch

If this is the wrong forum for this, sorry. It seemed like the most relevant. I've been looking at a few and I'm not sure my Google stuff is up to snuff. I'm pretty new to NV stuff. Picked up WP PVS-23 and trying to get a carbine configured for it. So far I have the carbine w/ Trij MRO &...

www.snipershide.com

 

[aslrookie]

My plan is to pair my modlite 850 with an atpial c. Then you can use atpial c on low and modlite for high ir illuminator. $1000 cheaper than a mawl. Done.

 

[TheHorta]

I like having instant access to WL on my rifles, so a dual IR/IR laser/light is out for me... which is why I MAWL.

The D2 and Perst (have both) are the only other options. Prefer the Perst3 or Perst2 over the D2.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I like having instant access to WL on my rifles, so a dual IR/IR laser/light is out for me... which is why I MAWL.

I agree.

I too value the ability to have instant white light and additionally a Vis Green Point simultaneously and instantly with that white light if I want it.

So the Dbal A3 with its unique Overide Function is one of the few MFLAM/LAM to offer that ability. The MAWL cannot do this. You have to reach up and rotate the Propeller.

With my setup below I can instantly with one push of a button do the following.

1. IR Illumination from 0 to 90 mW power via Luna ELIR slaved to a 0.7 mW IR Pointer which provides excellent contrast between the IR Point and the IR Illuminate such that you do not get into some of the "washout" situations you can get into when the MAWL Illuminator overpowers and washs out the IR Point.

OR

2. White Light via Modlight OKW (69,000 Candela) head and Vis Green Point.

The ability to seamlessly (with one push of a button) go from strong IR operation to strong white light without having to change any settings on your gear makes for a good setup.

 

[Ironman8]

The Steiner D2 is close to the mawl in performance, though huge.

I use a Steiner OTAl and a Surefire Vampire on a Unity tactical TAPS switch and find the outcome to be very acceptable.

If they could shrink down the D2 to an acceptable size, I'd be all over it. That thing just looks like a brick sitting on top of the rail.

This light/laser setup will be for a 12.5" AR, and I feel like that would totally throw off the "sleek-ness" of the SBR for everyday handling even with it being equipped with a LPVO (NX8 to keep the bulk/weight down)

Regarding OTAL, how much of a PITA is it to zero? The reason I'm considering the CQBL is the slaved lasers for zeroing and being able to get some reps in during daytime (probably only able to see it in indoor ranges though).

 

[Ironman8]

Here, this might help you out. I run Luna ELIR-3 slaved to Dbal A3's. It will way outperform a MAWL in every category and situation. I can afford a MAWL, but would not waste my money on it because it is way overpriced and way under delivers in some very important categories. IMHO. Others mileage may vary.

I also have the Modlite 850 IR head and can easily run it also. It is a very nice and strong illuminator but throws out a pretty substantial visible glow (to a human naked eye) and is a much wider (area type) beam than a Luna ELIR-3.

Night Vision - What IR Illuminator/White Light for Carbine? + Dual switch

If this is the wrong forum for this, sorry. It seemed like the most relevant. I've been looking at a few and I'm not sure my Google stuff is up to snuff. I'm pretty new to NV stuff. Picked up WP PVS-23 and trying to get a carbine configured for it. So far I have the carbine w/ Trij MRO &...

www.snipershide.com

Thanks, I missed that thread and will read through...I've seen you recommend the Luna a couple different times and was aware of it.

How does the Luna do at closer range and providing spill? Everything I've seen is it looks slightly more diffused than a laser and throws extremely far, but not sure how that would do at closer range...

 

[WhereNow&How]

Thanks, I missed that thread and will read through...I've seen you recommend the Luna a couple different times and was aware of it.

How does the Luna do at closer range and providing spill? Everything I've seen is it looks slightly more diffused than a laser and throws extremely far, but not sure how that would do at closer range...

That is the beauty of the Luna.

With the Rheostat allowing you to vary the Illuminator output power from 0.01 to 90 mW via a quick and simply dial of the nob and also the ability to adjust the beam width via the adjustable bezel, there is really nothing out there that can do all it can do.

Excellent for both close in or long range work.

In my case I have my Dbal A3 set on just IR Point and the Luna ELIR-3 serves as the illuminator. This vastly increases my run time on a Dbal A3 because its onboard battery is only running the IR point and not its onboard illuminator. The Luna ELIR-3 runs off of a rechargeable RCR 123 and gives excellent run time.

So if by some reason your Luna did sh^t the bed, then you could run the onboard Illuminator on the Dbal A3 as your backup. I have never had a Luna go down on me. They also produce a much cleaner beam than is commonly seen on most full power MFLAM/LAMS.

 

[TheHorta]

Different strokes. I haven’t been to a gym in a while, so your gun would kill me. In my case, ounces really are pain.

 

[Ironman8]

My plan is to pair my modlite 850 with an atpial c. Then you can use atpial c on low and modlite for high ir illuminator. $1000 cheaper than a mawl. Done.

Having a Low Output IR illum is an interesting thought that I hadn't considered, but why ATPIAL C over DBAL A3? Everything I've seen is that the illuminator on the A3 is better and you get the green laser with it.

I'm considering the CQBL for a few reasons:
1) Form factor (size/weight)
2) Gives me everything I need and nothing I don't (as long as I pair it with a good general purpose illuminator that has decent throw and spill)
3) Slaved lasers
4) I can remove the paired illuminator and tape switch during the day and be left with the small/light CQBL and white light (Modlight PLHv2) and if I found a need to activate the laser, I would be able to reach the fire button at 12:00
5) Lasers are more or less directly over the bore (at 12:00) and don't have to account for horizontal offset

 

[WhereNow&How]

Different strokes. I haven’t been to a gym in a while, so your gun would kill me. In my case, ounces really are pain.

Pain is weakness leaving the body.

At least that's what I tell myself.

 

[Ironman8]

I agree.

I too value the ability to have instant white light and additionally a Vis Green Point simultaneously and instantly with that white light if I want it.

So the Dbal A3 with its unique Overide Function is one of the few MFLAM/LAM to offer that ability. The MAWL cannot do this. You have to reach up and rotate the Propeller.

With my setup below I can instantly with one push of a button do the following.

1. IR Illumination from 0 to 90 mW power via Luna ELIR slaved to a 0.7 mW IR Pointer which provides excellent contrast between the IR Point and the IR Illuminate such that you do not get into some of the "washout" situations you can get into when the MAWL Illuminator overpowers and washs out the IR Point.

OR

2. White Light via Modlight OKW (69,000 Candela) head and Vis Green Point.

The ability to seamlessly (with one push of a button) go from strong IR operation to strong white light without having to change any settings on your gear makes for a good setup.


View attachment 7340054

Agreed on instant white light, although I plan to approach it differently and run my Modlight at 10:30 with just the tailcap that I can activate with my thumb.

The 12:00 CQBL would be paired with the illuminator at 1:30 or 3:00 and whatever the appropriate tape switch would be...which can be removed for daytime shooting like I mentioned.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Having a Low Output IR illum is an interesting thought that I hadn't considered, but why ATPIAL C over DBAL A3? Everything I've seen is that the illuminator on the A3 is better and you get the green laser with it.

Additionally, the ATPIAL all versions have a crappy mount that you can't change out for a decent mount. I think that thing even comes with a Snap Tie in the box from the factory. A plastic housing. L3 knows how to milk Uncle Sugar pretty good.

I would pass on the ATPIAL cause methinks the Steiner products are much tougher.

 

[Ironman8]

Also, anybody with experience with the Modlite 940 head? Is it really only good out to 75 yds?

I'm not entirely sure I really care as much about a visible glow from the 850 head...if I'm searching or trying to PID with the light, then that means I'd be orienting the gun towards whatever threat I'm looking for anyway so there's not a whole lot of time needed to line up the laser and pull the trigger. I feel like it's somewhat an overblown issue by the tactical timmy in mom's basement crowd.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Agreed on instant white light, although I plan to approach it differently and run my Modlight at 10:30 with just the tailcap that I can activate with my thumb.

The 12:00 CQBL would be paired with the illuminator at 1:30 or 3:00 and whatever the appropriate tape switch would be...which can be removed for daytime shooting like I mentioned.

That will work well.

I have some Modlight's set up at the 9.00 position that I thumb activate too. Works well.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Also, anybody with experience with the Modlite 940 head? Is it really only good out to 75 yds?

I'm not entirely sure I really care as much about a visible glow from the 850 head...if I'm searching or trying to PID with the light, then that means I'd be orienting the gun towards whatever threat I'm looking for anyway so there's not a whole lot of time is needed to line up the laser and pull the trigger. I feel like it's somewhat an overblown issue by the tactical timmy in mom's basement crowd.

Haven't used the Modlite 940 but I have tried out plenty of other LED 940 to 950 heads.

They all put out a pretty noticeable glow because of the actual band width "bleed over" that LED produces. Pretty much all LED IR bleed way out from their stated nm rating.

The only way to solve this is to put like a 950 Pass Filter in front of them. Go back and read what I stated and showed pictures of how to solve the problem of "noticeable glow" coming out of LED IR lights.

To get good distance performance at longer ranges, the secret is to get a (very strong) LED IR illuminator and stick a 950 pass filter in front of it. This will throttle back the light big time but if it is a strong version like an Evolva T38 it will still throw out to 300 yards of light above 950 nm that a Gen 3 tube can see very well at that distance. At least mine can and they are pretty much all Omni 7 spec units.

 

[aslrookie]

Having a Low Output IR illum is an interesting thought that I hadn't considered, but why ATPIAL C over DBAL A3? Everything I've seen is that the illuminator on the A3 is better and you get the green laser with it.

I'm considering the CQBL for a few reasons:
1) Form factor (size/weight)
2) Gives me everything I need and nothing I don't (as long as I pair it with a good general purpose illuminator that has decent throw and spill)
3) Slaved lasers
4) I can remove the paired illuminator and tape switch during the day and be left with the small/light CQBL and white light (Modlight PLHv2) and if I found a need to activate the laser, I would be able to reach the fire button at 12:00
5) Lasers are more or less directly over the bore (at 12:00) and don't have to account for horizontal offset

I just don’t like the profile and switch system with the DBAL.

 

[Ironman8]

Haven't used the Modlite 940 but I have tried out plenty of other LED 940 to 950 heads.

They all put out a pretty noticeable glow because of the actual band width "bleed over" that LED produces. Pretty much all LED IR bleed way out from their stated nm rating.

The only way to solve this is to put like a 950 Pass Filter in front of them. Go back and read what I stated and showed pictures of how to solve the problem of "noticeable glow" coming out of LED IR lights.

To get good distance performance at longer ranges, the secret is to get a (very strong) LED IR illuminator and stick a 950 pass filter in front of it. This will throttle back the light big time but if it is a strong version like an Evolva T38 it will still throw out to 300 yards of light above 950 nm that a Gen 3 tube can see very well at that distance. At least mine can and they are pretty much all Omni 7 spec units.

Sounds like if I go the Modlite 850 route with filter, I may have enough power to push through enough light at the right spectrum if I was interested in truly going dark. I saw JW Ramps video showing downrange performance, and it seemed to blow the MAWL out of the water in both spill and throw...this was un-filtered of course.

The ELIR-3 looks interesting, but it shows only a 5 degree beam width...this doesn't seem like it would be very useful at closer range, even if you could tone down the output. I'm also curious about the durability...

Between ELIR and Modlite routes, price looks to be a wash but I do like the scout mount over pic rail mounting solution since I can use an Arisaka offset to mount it directly to MLOK.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Sounds like if I go the Modlite 850 route with filter, I may have enough power to push through enough light at the right spectrum if I was interested in truly going dark. I saw JW Ramps video showing downrange performance, and it seemed to blow the MAWL out of the water in both spill and throw...this was un-filtered of course.

The ELIR-3 looks interesting, but it shows only a 5 degree beam width...this doesn't seem like it would be very useful at closer range, even if you could tone down the output. I'm also curious about the durability...

Between ELIR and Modlite routes, price looks to be a wash but I do like the scout mount over pic rail mounting solution since I can use an Arisaka offset to mount it directly to MLOK.

Yes, I have not done it on the Modlite 850 yet, but I believe if you get a 950 nm pass filter placed in front of it, it should perform pretty well.

The reason I have not taken the time yet to do that is because I have a proven outstanding helmet setup in the Evolva T38 with 950 pass filter that shows absolutely not visible red glow that I can use in conjunction with the IR point on my rifle or pistol should I so choose.

The ELIR-3 at 5 degrees (88 milliradians) is plenty wide enough to do close work. Its focus range is in line with the same exact narrow and wide as full powered Dbal A2 and PEQ 15's that the military uses.

The Modlite Head on the Surefire Body will be more tough than the Luna ELIR-3, however you have a much larger lens that could be subject to being hit and broken or dirty from powder residue. The Luna is a much smaller lens that is recessed back into the bezel.

However like I said, the Modlite/Surefire is a much tougher light being all aluminum vs the Luna ELIR-3 being in a thermoplastic housing.

When using an IR Point with an Illuminator, I particularly do not like a great big huge "area type" illuminator beam. For 200 yards down the 5 degree works perfect, past that distance you would want to narrow down even more. Any IR Illuminator being used with an IR Point needs to be focusable to tailor the width of the Illumination beam to suit your conditions.

Some of the "experts" out there make a big deal about overcoming "Photonic Barriers" and they are correct in stating that.

A Luna ELIR-3 can overcome and optimize any "Photonic Barriers" far better than most any IR Illuminator out there bar none. You can roll with any big boy full power MFAL/LAM and surpass most of them with a much stronger and cleaner beam.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I don’t like the ELiR on non- LR rigs because of its non-eyesafe laser on higher powers.

Prefer to illuminate closer stuff with LED light for safety purposes.

That is why my setups are perfect in a lot of ways. Leave the Luna ELIR-3 off and use the onboard weak sauce Illuminator on the Dbal A3 Civi version for close up work and out to about 75 to 100 yards max if you want to.

However, even the full power Dbals are good at close range. Just have them set to low power and use a Neutral Density Filter over your IR pointer.

And I also have the excellent helmet mounted LED Evolva T38 with 950 Pass Filters on it such that it produces zero glow, illuminates very well out to 300 yards and has 3 power settings on it. Low, Med, High. So for close in work I can use it and just use and IR point on my rifle mounted MFLAM.

It is good to have all the bases covered such that you can handle pretty much any situation presented plus have some redundancy backup options.

 

[Ironman8]

Thanks all for the dialog here, definitely some things I’ll take into consideration

@WhereNow&How when you push the “fire” button on the DBAL A3, does it activate with tape switches plugged in?

In other words, if I had a similar setup where I planned to use the Modlite IR 850 head and A3 Laser for high output on a tape switch such as Unity TAPS Sync, could I press the fire button on the A3 unit to activate just the IR laser & IR Illum for a lower output option?

(I guess that’s what one of the buttons on the Sync would be for anyway, unless I use that for the vis override port...hopefully I’m understanding the switchology correctly there)

 

[WhereNow&How]

Thanks all for the dialog here, definitely some things I’ll take into consideration

@WhereNow&How when you push the “fire” button on the DBAL A3, does it activate with tape switches plugged in?

In other words, if I had a similar setup where I planned to use the Modlite IR 850 head and A3 Laser for high output on a tape switch such as Unity TAPS Sync, could I press the fire button on the A3 unit to activate just the IR laser & IR Illum for a lower output option?

(I guess that’s what one of the buttons on the Sync would be for anyway, unless I use that for the vis override port...hopefully I’m understanding the switchology correctly there)

Yes, no matter if you have both A3 remote sockets filled with tape switch's when you hit the onboard top fire button it activates exactly as it should in the mode you have selected on the A3 rotatory selection switch.

You are correct. If you have the A3 rotary switch set to low hitting the fire button on top will activate that setting.

Hook your Taps Sync up to the A3 port and Modlite IR 850 and when you hit that button you will have strong illuminator and whatever power IR point you had selected. Then if you want White Light and Vis Green Point at same time just put a White Light Weapon Light on your rig and hook up Taps Sync second switch to the White Light and also into your Overide Port on the A3.

Yeah, I would like to see a MAWL user keep up with me transitioning from IR Illuminate/IR Point to White Light and Green Vis Point. Absolutely no way they can transition as fast as I can. I can also vary the intensity power of the Luna ELIR-3 beam via a quick twist of the Luna Rheostat just as fast or faster than a MAWL operator can switch which button he activates his power options on the MAWL.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@Ironman8

The Dbal A3 is arguably the finest toughest most featured MFLAM produced to date. Especially the full power versions.

 

[TheHorta]

@Ironman8

The Dbal A3 is arguably the finest toughest most featured MFLAM produced to date. Especially the full power versions.

I dunno. I like the A3 and everything, but I’d put it behind both the MAWL and the Perst3.

A3 is definitely the smallest and lightest, though. To me, that’s a big plus. Aside from the anemic illuminator (not a big deal for me, as I’m mostly thermal now), my biggest gripe is the rail height. It feels like it towers above the rail, which I’m not a fan of.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@TheHorta

That is a civi Version A3 with a denutted illuminator in that photo.

A full power Dbal A3 will walk over the MAWL-C in IR spectrum and will hang pretty much what for what in the IR spectrum with the Perst 3 except the A3 has a wider beam spread on the illuminator when you need that. The Perst 3 is a pretty nice unit however. Id take it over a MAWL.

But here is where the rubber really hits the road. For people using these devices in a potentially hostile situation, when they are especially under dual NV, the most likely common threat they would encounter is getting lit up with white light by "Joe Shit The Badman"

So when that happens it is pretty much OK Corral time. The ability to then instantly look under your washed out dual NODS from Joe Shits White Light and the ability to instantly paint him with a superior powered white light and Vis Green dot that allows you to lay down accurate fire, is a hugely important feature of the Dbal A3 that will allow a person on a 2 way range to come home when many other MFAL will fail you.

L3 has finally caught up with the times with their new NGAL by finally adding an Override Port feature to Vis Point and White Light if properly connected via switchology.

Thus, when things get real and your staking your life on a MFAL, well (my statement the Dbal A3 is arguably the best) becomes a fact that cannot be denied.

 

[TheHorta]

We live in different worlds, brother.

If I ever find myself dancing the Mortal Tango with Joe Shit in the dark, something’s gone horribly wrong.

Now, if the coyotes out here ever wise-up and start arming themselves, which I think is entirely plausible given how smart these little bastards are, then you may have a point.

 

[WhereNow&How]

We live in different worlds, brother.

Not really. Unfortunately, we are all watching our world make some crazy turns lately.

Also, there has been lots and lots of white light weapon lights sold over the last 10 years. So if things keep unraveling, well "Joe Shit The Badman Thug" meaning harm and mayhem, might become a much more common thing.

When faced with choices on equipment selection, I like devices that can perform well across a broad spectrum of situations. May not be the absolute best at any one particular thing, but can handle way more things that others can not.

 

[Ironman8]

Been meaning to circle back and thank everyone for the discussion. And thanks to @WhereNow&How for the detailed responses. Great stuff!

 

[Default.mp3]

L3 has finally caught up with the times with their new NGAL by finally adding an Override Port feature to Vis Point and White Light if properly connected via switchology.

A bit of a thread resurrection, but do you have a source for that? I only see a single port in the pictures of the NGAL. I see claims that the TAPS Sync can provide an electronic override signal, but the claim states it also works with the RAID-X, which I have not been able to replicate.

 

[WhereNow&How]

A bit of a thread resurrection, but do you have a source for that? I only see a single port in the pictures of the NGAL. I see claims that the TAPS Sync can provide an electronic override signal, but the claim states it also works with the RAID-X, which I have not been able to replicate.

I might have had a brain freeze and got it confused with the Raid X. My bad.

 

[Default.mp3]

I might have had a brain freeze and got it confused with the Raid X. My bad.

The RAID-X does not have the extra port either, that I know for sure. That being said, in speaking with Unity, they apparently do have a vis override capability they've been working on.

Our NGAL specific TAPS will indeed allow for vis-override. We purchase the cable lead assemblies direct from L-3 and solder them to our boards. One button will fire the laser in whatever mode is physically selected on the laser. The other button will fire the light and visible laser regardless of the laser being set to IR.

The RAID-X variant is different. We designed a special lead that allows for the vis-override feature as seen in the cited article. This is still in prototype and awaiting Wilcox to move on it.

So, that's pretty cool.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The RAID-X does not have the extra port either, that I know for sure. That being said, in speaking with Unity, they apparently do have a vis override capability they've been working on.

So, that's pretty cool.

Where did you get that information from Unity from.

It has been a while and cant remember for sure, but I knew one of those MFAL's could be set up for overide.

 

[Default.mp3]

Where did you get that information from Unity from.

It has been a while and cant remember for sure, but I knew one of those MFAL's could be set up for overide.

I had emailed them about vis override capabilities with the TAPS Sync, as one of the SHOT 2020 posts I had read made that claim, which I had not heard anywhere else.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I wonder if they are ever going to release the dual lead Hot Button. It is about a year late from when they said it was going to be released.

 

[jwramp]

I wonder if they are ever going to release the dual lead Hot Button. It is about a year late from when they said it was going to be released.

There’s been some recent posts in the Modlight owner group on FB that make it look pretty close.

 

[WhereNow&How]

There’s been some recent posts in the Modlight owner group on FB that make it look pretty close.

Thanks JW that is good to know. Been waiting on that for a long time.