Advanced Marksmanship Position Shooting Standards

[ptrlcop]

There are about a billion and one photos of prone/bench groups. I have a good understanding of what good prone groups look like. There are much fewer pics of things shot from positions. I don't have as clear an idea of what good is from different positions.

With that said what size targets or groups do you expect from kneeling/sitting/standing? For example I can hold about 2-3 MOA from sitting and 4-5 MOA from kneeling. I suspect I have a lot of room for improvement.

I was thinking if a bunch of people listed their ability from different positions it would give us all a good benchmark.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[djskit]

That's a really good question that I had not thought of specifically.

All I ever think about positional is "I've been presented a target of X size at Y distance and need to shoot it off a barricade, roof, from kneeling, sitting etc., and I need to hit it, or I don't."

I've never thought, "Well, 3 MOA at 400 yards is smaller than I am capable of from a barricade. Sitting, maybe, but not barricade. Un-supported prone, 2 MOA all day if I do my part, but not from a roof."

I may actually practice this at 100 yards and measure groups. "How tight can I hold my 1/2 MOA rifle kneeling?"

Thinking further "My rifle and load shoots 1/2 MOA" sounds more like a statement of fact vs "I can hold 2 MOA kneeling" sounds....different.

 

[Petrichor Actual]

I'm curious too. I shoot almost exclusive bench and prone. I need to work on these but don't have any reasonable accuracy standards.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I would suggest recording your capability using various positions and then work to improve them.

 

[Darkside-Six]

good point. Position shooting is something that I never do anymore. Haven't in a long time, but when I think of positional shooiting I never think groups, only a specific size target that I need to hit.

 

[ptrlcop]

Obviously we all want to be better than our current selves. Skill however is relative and it helps to be able to gauge your skill in relation to other shooters. Clearly competition is one way to do that. Without having access to a competition that measures a certain skill, we are left with comparing our abilities to others. A lot of people that I know who consider themselves good shooters believe this not because they are that good, but rather they have not seen what good really looks like.

In a match type scenario I understand that you must attempt the shot you are given and you hit or you don't. In the scenarios I shoot(LE and hunting) just "letting it fly" isn't an option and it is important to be able to gauge the probability of making any given shot and either taking it or moving to a better position.

I've been doing a lot of position shooting lately and I seem to learn a lot more about shooting than I do on my belly. What I mean by that is that lessons in natural point of aim, bone support, trigger control, and sight picture seem to be much more apparent because errors are so greatly amplified when you are off the ground.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

I do not think about groups, I think about score, and you should too. Get a score book, and shoot at reduced course NRA HP targets in appropriate position/course of fire, recording calls and shots. Soon thereafter, you will have a basis for comparative analysis, as well as an understanding of progress and ability. What's a decent score? A 480 out of 500 firing in the National Match Course would be a pretty good indicator of ability, while a score around 770 the Regional NRA HP Course would indicate you've mastered things. These scores will get you high placements in local and regional competitions, unless you happen to be shooting on the home range of the USAMU shooting along side black hat shooters.

 

[ptrlcop]

OP,

I do not think about groups, I think about score, and you should too. Get a score book, and shoot at reduced course NRA HP targets in appropriate position/course of fire, recording calls and shots. Soon thereafter, you will have a basis for comparative analysis, as well as an understanding of progress and ability. What's a decent score? A 480 out of 500 firing in the National Match Course would be a pretty good indicator of ability, while a score around 770 the Regional NRA HP Course would indicate you've mastered things. These scores will get you high placements in local and regional competitions, unless you happen to be shooting on the home range of the USAMU shooting along side black hat shooters.

Great post! I don't know why I didn't think of that, I've been using NRA bulls for pistol shooting for a long time!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Whiskey 2-1]

Another question to ask is under what conditions/time constraints.

For standard sling supported positions, NRA across the course matches are a great way to assess your positional shooting. The 10 ring on the 200 yard sitting rapid fire target is a little over 3MOA. The 300 yard prone rapid fire target has a 10 ring of a little over 2 MOA. A master class shooter is capable of cleaning these stages with some regularity with an iron sighted service rifle. While these positions are quite regimented and offer a generous prep time, they are a great way to assess your ability to build a stable position, manipulate the trigger properly without disturbing the sights, and follow through well. I enjoy service rifle quite a bit for these reasons. I think is also improves my ability to shoot non prone positions in field matches.

On the other hand, field tactical comps will generally give you less prep time, and will use more barricade and bone support than classic sling positions. (Of course slung positions use bone support) There are many parallels, but I think there are enough differences to be worth mentioning. It is not uncommon to engage a 2 MOA steel target at middle distances (4-500 yards) from improvised positions such as kneeling/sitting/standing barricade supported positions with very little prep time. Top finishers will be hitting most of them. Classic sling supported kneeling or sitting is thrown in as well, and in my experience has been at about 400yds with a minute prep time on a roughly 2-3MOA target.

I personally like to practice positional shooting at reduced distances at small targets with a rimfire trainer- either service rifle or tactical match rifle. It's cheap, and the increased lock time will point out bad follow through painfully.

Sean

 

[morganlamprecht]

Check out Jacob here OP, great video of seeing what he sees thru the optic...gives you something to strive for... he makes it look extremely easy

[video=youtube;eY-Rwz4dZjw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY-Rwz4dZjw&list=UU6sQAoBANdAstOMwlVWqPGg[/video]

 

[ptrlcop]

Here is a printable pdf of the 200yd target reduced for 100yds. At some point I may put together a "challenge" thread with this target, I just dont have the time at this moment.

 

[gme]

The NRA 200 yard SR target has a 3" x ring and a 7" ten ring, high x- count cleans are fairly common from the sitting"rapid" position and while not as common it's not unusual for the top shooters to shoot clean offhand, the 300 yard target is shot from the prone position with the sling "rapid fire" it has the same size rings (but a larger aiming black) again high x- count cleans are commonplace

 

[dgswen]

to add: NRA High Power Metallic Silhouette is 200m 300m 385m and 500m, all off hand, target area on all animals is about 2 moa.
Standard match is 4 banks of 10 each, if i recall correctly, recorded high score is 39/40, achieved only twice. If you can get up into the 30s your pushing AAA/master and pretty good.

 

[TorF]

The World record in the ISSU 300m Rifle 3 positions (prone, knee and standing) is 1179 out of 1200. The x-ring is app 1moa so this record translates into a 120 shot 1.1moa@300m group with open sights and sling..

NRA HPMS is great fun. Rifles have size and weight limits. I try to use these limits on my "tactical/long range/hunting" rifles as it make them more practical.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

The NRA 200 yard SR target has a 3" x ring and a 7" ten ring, high x- count cleans are fairly common from the sitting"rapid" position and while not as common it's not unusual for the top shooters to shoot clean offhand, the 300 yard target is shot from the prone position with the sling "rapid fire" it has the same size rings (but a larger aiming black) again high x- count cleans are commonplace

I've had the most "fun" shooting at the MR-31. This is the 600 yard target reduced for 100 yards. My scores on this are about what I'd expect shooing mid range prone with sling and irons in about a 4 mph prevailing full value wind. My goal is all X-ring hits, but so far my highest X-count is 17 out of 20 with no sighters.

 

[sinister]

The "Average Guy" can challenge himself in all firing positions at 100 (or 200 and 300) yards if he has access to a range and scaled NRA highpower rifle targets.

Clubs across America shoot highpower rifle matches and invite participation with whatever rifle you have available. North State Shooting Club at Camp Butner, North Carolina, had an open invitation to bring anything you want to shoot (including scoped bolt rifles) and many clubs offer the use of an M1 or AR if you don't have one.

The NRA breaks down what they think is a classification window based on your performance. This is a good general primer: Basics of High Power Competition

I am NRA classified as a highpower rifle "Master" and generally shoot a mid "A" performance. I am sure I would shoot way better if I practiced far more and more often.

Get off your belly or bench, put away the bipod, and go out and shoot (irons or scope, it doesn't matter!). No matter the score, you're shooting against yourself. Tell us how you did.

 

[ptrlcop]

Ok, I shot 10rds kneeling at 100 on the Sr1 that I posted on two different targets.

On the first set I got uncomfortable in the position and threw shots 9/10. On target 2 I placed the toe of the stock a little higher in the shoulder pocket which gave me a more comfortable position. I could call my shots 100% if they left the black and had a good idea on 9s. I could say I hit a 10 but no clue if it was a 10, x or the position in the 10 ring.

Target 1

Target 2

I'm not real sure how to read these for error. I'm pretty sure #7 on target 2 was trigger control. And I explained my issues on target #1.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sinister]

BRAVO, Patrolcop!

If you're shooting on-call then you know where you need to improve. You are holding excellent elevation and are only leaking out to the sides (called trigger jerk or mash but your elevation is good).

A 94-4X followed by a 97-4X. 191-8X for the two strings. NRA Expert score.

Next, combine two 10-shot standing strings (20 minutes total), two 10-shot rapid-fire prone strings in 70 seconds per string (change mags after the first 2 shots or first 5 shots). Finish with two 10-shot prone strings (20 shots in 20 minutes) and you've basically shot an NRA 80-shot course.

Total your percentage and let us know how you fare.

I went to my first Camp Perry in 1999 classed as a Sharpshooter and left after two weeks classed Expert. In 2002 I went Distinguished, and in 2003 placed 20th in the President's Match. You CAN get there if you want to.

Nicely done!

 

[Erud]

Ptrlcop,
That's good shooting, especially for your first try at it. Kneeling is a tough position, and it can be hard for many shooters to hold good elevation. If you enjoy this style of shooting, you really owe it to yourself to try a Highpower competition. You chant help but develop good fundamentals, so becoming proficient in HP will make you a better shooter in anything else you do.

Good luck,
Erik

 

[Erud]

Also, I can't remember exactly where Janesville is in WI, but it seems like it's pretty close to Madison. If that's the case , you are not far from one of the best HP ranges in the country in Lodi. Winnequah Gun Club holds quite a few HP matches during the warm month as well as some great LR matches. The Midwest Palma match they hold every summer is one of the biggest LR matches of the year in the country and draws shooters from all over the US. I usually make the trip over there from MN to shoot matches at least 3 times per summer.

 

[sinister]

Once you get confident in NRA-style shooting try international military competition (CISM) format. It's challenging, but not like one-handed bullseye pistol challenging.

300 Meters, kneeling, standing, and prone.

Kneeling: 2 series of 10 shots each. Each series in 2 minutes.
Prone: 2 series of 10 shots each. Each series in 1 minute 30 seconds.
Standing: 2 series of 10 shots each. Each series in 2 minutes.

Use NRA 300-yard targets (or scaled targets at 100 or 200) and any rifle and sight/scope you desire. Rest and prep ten minutes between stages.
Let us know how you did.

 

[ptrlcop]

A couple things. Before you guys send me to camp perry, I shot this with a scoped rifle. I have tons of respect for guys who can shoot as good or better with irons. I would be much less successful shot calling with irons. Also, I did not shoot this under any sort of time constraint and took several min per string to build a perfect position. I spent 2-3 min just making sure my NPA was spot on. Next time I think I will try breaking position between each shot to practice building it more efficiently. My end goal is to be able to get 100% hits on the face targets on our sniper qual target(3 inch circle) from 100yds kneeling and to have the confidence to make hostage shots from kneeling out to 50(not the most difficult shot, but I have to be pretty sure to bet somebody's life on my making it)

I have shot at Winnequah. My sniper TL is a member and we try to get there once or twice a year for some extended range scooting. It is a great facility. In the future I will be getting a membership there.

I wish that I had time to get involved in some competitive shooting but it is close to impossible for me to find whole days that I can devote to attending matches. I am extremely fortunate however that my agency's range is 5min from my house and that I can have near daily 10-20 min shooting sessions. I also get 100rds a month of free 168 Hornady TAP on top of whatever ammo I buy. I try and shoot my JP(my duty sniper weapon) at least 2x per week and checking my logs I am averaging closer to 3x for this year. I am toying with the idea of building a training rifle in 5.56 so than I can shoot more, cheaper, and get some more barrel life out of my JP since I am on a little better than 2k per pace with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sinister]

If you can dry fire 10-15 minutes at home every night after shift and before bed you will definitely reach your goal for 100 yard kneeling head shots. It will become routine.

A 5.56 gun would be the perfect trainer, especially if you are that close to your agency range and can shoot often.

Get out of the car, prep the gun, take a cold bore shot (100 kneeling) and log it. Finish with two ten-shot strings at a minute a string. Pack it up, go home. Done!

Good luck to you -- you can see your goal from here!

 

[Whiskey 2-1]

There is nothing wrong with taking forever to set up positional shots when you are practicing. You are learning to build a stable position. It takes time at first. Build it right each time at the beginning, and then after time, you will instantly know when something is "off". You will get faster and faster at getting into position. Likewise, don't ever force a bad shot in practice. Fine touting that NPA as long as it takes, and then let the position do the work.

Absolutely, Dry fire. It is the best thing for positional shooting.....and free.

After a 6 year break following my first (incomplete) year of service rifle competition, I wanted to pull the rifle back out and get back to competing. I put a reduced bull on the wall of my office and dry fired one string standing, one string sitting, and one string prone several nights per week. All shots called and plotted just like a match. I did this for about 3-4 months.

I dusted off the rifle and went to my first full distance across the course service rifle match in 6 years. I shot a Master score....then continued to shoot master scores for the season to earn my Master classification in what was my first real season competing. Mind you, I shoot other formats (long range tactical matches) well, so I can read wind, etc. However, my rapid success in service rifle was heavily based on quality dry firing. I can't praise it enough.

To this day, I dry fire with my service and tactical rifles in my office regularly. It's the only real reason I shoot well in competition, since I don't get the the range more than a few times per year.

Sean

 

[mark5pt56]

PTRLCOP, All I can say is hats off for taking the initiative to practice positional shooting. For one taking advantage of the resources you have available and learning capabilities to perform is very important. As you understand and have taken steps to prepare, rarely is one in the "classic" prone on call outs.

Keep at it and stay safe.

Mark

 

[ptrlcop]

As you understand and have taken steps to prepare, rarely is one in the "classic" prone on call outs.

Keep at it and stay safe.

Mark

I hear that! I ha one call out where my partner and I were on a narrow balcony of an apartment complex. We could not fit side to side. He took a seated tripod position and I stood over him and hung my rifle by looping the sling over the pneumatic arm of the door. It was actually a decently steady position.

Here are 10 from today. I really thought those 9s were at least a little closer to the 10ring. I was super happy with the CCB X ring though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ptrlcop]

I think that group low right means something... Trigger control?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sinister]

I think that group low right means something... Trigger control?

Was there any wind? Need to nail down your zero. Most likely it would have meant a bad guy dead as fried chicken.

Good work!

 

[Archer01]

That's a normal tendency but not necessarily a good method. I was first taught to know proper technique, in the interim learn you and your idiosnycrasy, and develope a
ritual. This will get you off on the right foot, the expound.

 

[ptrlcop]

Was there any wind? Need to nail down your zero. Most likely it would have meant a bad guy dead as fried chicken.

Good work!

Wind was 7-10 but directly at my back so zero value.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mark5pt56]

Relaxing your hold when pressing trigger-assuming your a righty

 

[ptrlcop]

Relaxing your hold when pressing trigger-assuming your a righty

Do you mean that I need to relax my firing hand or that I am relaxing my hold on the rifle as the shot breaks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mark5pt56]

Do you mean that I need to relax my firing hand or that I am relaxing my hold on the rifle as the shot breaks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It appears you are relaxing your hold slightly before and as the shot is made. Work on that follow through.

Remember you have the position, then hold, which should be minimized as much as possible via a good position.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

All,

For the OP to make the most out of reduced course target shooting the OP needs to record calls and shots in a data book. This permits the cause of error to literally be seen through analysis of the call/shot corollary. For example a shot called right-in-there but hitting at 3 o'clock indicates sight not adjusted for wind. Here's another example, a shot called at 3 o'clock and hitting at 3 o'clock indicates rifle movement, perhaps from poor trigger control.