Positional Point of Impact Shift?

[Cjwise5]

Just doing a little research here guys, so help me out. What are your thoughts on a point of impact shift going from prone zero to a bench zero? It seems to be a real thing, but I wonder if it's just shooter induced because of the position change. Thoughts?

 

[Lowlight]

It can have an impact depending on the rifle and shooter

 

[Cjwise5]

So you figure it's all shooter induced based on recoil management? I mean that makes perfect sense. I wish I could find the link, but i've read posts from benchrest guys claiming that the POI shift happens from prone to bench even when they are shooting off of their lead sleds or whatever. You would think devices like that would take the human element out of it. Thoughts?

 

[Sheldon N]

If you shot a lead sled on the bench and on the ground and saw a POI shift, my thought would be that mirage effects could be the cause. Down at ground level they are stronger than when you're elevated on a bench position. Shooter position and recoil management could certainly affect zero as well.

 

[morganlamprecht]

define the shift size? my bolt guns do below...first group was on the top right...dialed up .1 and shot the next 5 - 3 shot groups...1 was prone, 2 were bench and 2 were barricade...they shift around slightly, but well within my shooting ability

i have a gas gun that i can force a POI shift positionally if i put enough pressure into it...its either from the upper/rail flexing or the ID of the rail touching the gas block (15" rail w/ lo pro block inside)...either way i just dont load into it with my full weight, and then it does the same as the bolt guns

like mentioned above...people may see shifts, but its on the shooter if their guns are good to go mechanically

 

[Lowlight]

It's part of recoil management but:

I have seen it also be rifle/caliber specific on just how much the shift is.

The faster calibers with a heavier rifle shiftless, the slower calibers shift more.

Think about bleeding off energy and how much movement it takes as that is really the key.

Barrel length, Muzzle Velocity combined with the amount of movement via the rifle weight.

Lastly, with the shooter, it's cheek weld, moving from one position to the other changes your head location.

 

[Cjwise5]

I went to the range today to play with this theory a little bit. I shot my groups at 300 yards. Just figured the group sizes would be larger and easier to see. not sure if that makes a difference. Shot a group from prone and it ended up being 1 inch low of my point of aim. Shot a group from a bench at the same 300 yards and the group was the same 1 inch low of my point of aim. Then I shot a group kneeling from a PRS barricade and the group was 1 inch high of my point of aim. Thoughts?

 

[Lowlight]

Shoulders, in the kneeling depending on your position, you will move more freely with recoil

Depending on how you shoot the bench will matter,

If you square up and have your shoulders in front of your hips recoil is managed, if you shot the bench bladed like most do it should have been similar

So we need a bit more detail

 

[Lowlight]

and just to clarify

it's rear bag, rear support that is making the difference.

The "High" means the back of the rifle is going down, so look at Cause and Effect, if you do "THIS" then "THAT" will happen.

 

[Cjwise5]

Shoulders, in the kneeling depending on your position, you will move more freely with recoil

Depending on how you shoot the bench will matter,

If you square up and have your shoulders in front of your hips recoil is managed, if you shot the bench bladed like most do it should have been similar

So we need a bit more detail

I "think" my fundamentals are strong, though I haven't taken one of your classes yet Frank. I line up straight behind the rifle, load the bipod, natural point of aim, etc. As far as the bench goes, I hate that benches are designed the way they are. I always stand behind the rifle at a bench so I can line up directly behind it. I lean my chest into the bench to help mitigate upper body movement.
As for the barricade, that kind of doesn't fit in this test because it's kneeling, rifle balanced on a gamechanger. I still square up behind the rifle as much as possible, but my "wobble" is far greater because it's positional.
Don't know if the group sizes help you guys or even matter in this, but I got a crazy lucky 1/4" group at 300y from prone. Typical 100 yard zero with my match rifle is 3/8" The group from the bench at 300y was 1 inch. The group from the barricade at 300y was 3 inches.

 

[Cjwise5]

Yeah i know I misspelled some words. I was in a hurry at that point. lol

 

[Cjwise5]

So what concrete conclusions can I take away from this?

 

[j-huskey]

The more consistent you become in managing both fundamentals and recoil, the less the poi shift, until the shift is negligible as in @morganlamprecht grouping above.

 

[Cjwise5]

The more consistent you become in managing both fundamentals and recoil, the less the poi shift, until the shift is negligible as in @morganlamprecht grouping above.

agree, but let's remember that these groups of mine are "negligible" in that two of them are well under 1moa and the group off the barricade is right at 1moa at 300y. Or were you saying "you" in general? I hate text, you can never tell.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not really a Fundamental Issue, but a recoil one.

The movement from the system is happening under recoil, if you manage the recoil as most people do, the offset is tiny, the more unstable the position the more recoil will move you.

This is why it varies so much. If you look at guys who shoot bladed on a bench with no recoil management just letting the gun push them back it will change the POI vs Prone. If you apply the principles of recoil management, the movements are smaller.


recoil management tells the bullet where the barrel is when it releases the shot. Different people have different levels of recoil management so the barrel is not always in the same place. This is where our zero comes from, the rifle recoils the bullet leaves the barrel at a given location and we then adjust the scope to match them up.

 

[morganlamprecht]

agree, but let's remember that these groups of mine are "negligible" in that two of them are well under 1moa and the group off the barricade is right at 1moa at 300y. Or were you saying "you" in general? I hate text, you can never tell.

i dont think hes talking about the group sizes... he means the shift

youre 1" low prone/bench, and 1" high positional...thats ~2" at only 300

at any distance my dope is the same prone, positional, or tripod...i dont ever adjust it for my position

 

[Cjwise5]

i dont think hes talking about the group sizes... he means the shift

youre 1" low prone/bench, and 1" high positional...thats ~2" at only 300

at any distance my dope is the same prone, positional, or tripod...i dont ever adjust it for my position

Video or it didn't happen
Also, my dope hasn't been trued at all distances yet with this rifle. My 100 zero was good, but I hadn't tested or adjusted at distance. It's entirely possible that would account for some of the variance here.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Truing won’t fix 2 different POIs

 

[Lowlight]

Look at the Highpower Guys, they change the position of their stocks for every new position,

Here from Tubb,

He also adjusts the stock LOP for different positions,

we do this, but there is reason why they do it

 

[Cjwise5]

Truing won’t fix 2 different POIs

I'm in agreement with you on that. But like Frank said above, in this scenario it isn't a fundamentals issue, it's recoil. The rear bag I used on the barricade was larger and softer than what I used in the prone and bench positions. Like he said, the butt of the rifle lowered into that bag on recoil impluse thereby raising the shots on target.
Maybe that's on me, but maybe that's just the nature of the beast shooting positional like that. Maybe it's the bag. Maybe it's a technique.
My point in all this is to help new shooters understand that fundamentals, body position, recoil management, etc. can all work together to influence shots both positively and negatively.

 

[Lowlight]

It can be broken into several terms,

1. Fundamentals of Marksmanship control your execution of the shot

2. Elements of a Good Shooting Position control the body and the support of the rifle

3. Recoil Management tells the bullet where the Barrel is:

We put them all together and that is what makes the shot a success or not, it's the combination that makes it good or bad.

For positional stuff, we tell people you want your shoulders in front of your hips to help with recoil management. Other things like supporting the firing elbow is another "Element" we look at in this situation. How the body and rifle are supported during the firing task.

 

[morganlamprecht]

My point in all this is to help new shooters understand that fundamentals, body position, recoil management, etc. can all work together to influence shots both positively and negatively.

this has been my point the whole time...do it all RIGHT, and it wont shift around

you have a shift...youre not doing something right

my AI doesnt care if i have a 6mm barrel on it or my 308...suppressed or brake...the bullets hit where i expect them to

 

[Lowlight]

Exactly ^^^

It's putting everything together and you accomplish that by understanding Cause and Effect

 

[Cjwise5]

I kind of agree. On it's face, what you're saying is absolutely true, but humans are incapable of getting it perfect every single time. We aren't robots. Do you really expect a shot taken positional to yield the same results everytime as a shot taken prone? You're kind of taking this to the extreme. This is why we don't shoot the size of target our rifle is capable of hitting - by that I mean if I typically get 3/8" groups (as I did in this test) then why don't I shoot 3/8's moa targets at distance? Obviously, it's because that's not a realistic expectation. Every shooter is different, and every time we go to the range there are different variables in play. You guys know this clearly. This was a good test for me and one that I may do again a few times to see if I get a similar result from the prone and modified prone shots to the barricade positional shot. If I personally always hit high while positional, that could help me during competitions.

 

[Cjwise5]

Exactly ^^^

It's putting everything together and you accomplish that by understanding Cause and Effect

We're not robots as I said above, but obviously, you're right Frank. Let's look at the effect...my shots from the barricade went high. The cause? Morgan says it's me. What did I do? I tried to do everything exactly the same according to the fundamentals, but the result was different. The effect of my fundamentals on the first two groups yielded a very similar result. Why was the result different this time given my fundamentals were exactly the same? Couldn't it just as easily be the fact that it's an unstable position? Or a softer rear bag? How could I have made that position any more stable?

 

[Lowlight]

I think we are still talking about two different things

The fundamentals are not what creates this issue your body position does...

What Morgan is saying and agree, you have to translate the position to control recoil the same way. In the kneeling your position sounds unstable, so that is a Body Position issue, not a fundamental one Which is why I gave you the definitions above to highlight the differences.

You can execute the fundamentals correctly but if your body position is unstable the rifle will still recoil in and different way from position one to position two

 

[Cjwise5]

Ok, thank you for clarifying. Then my new question is, how does a person make that kneeling position more stable? I'll pull a picture off my video in a little bit.

 

[Cjwise5]

Trying to square up behind the rifle. Wiebad pump pillow for rear support for gun and my upper body.

 

[j-huskey]

Not ignoring conversation, smothered by a bunch of junk, some of it department training detail, but, right now Morgan (post 22) is as close as it gets to what I would say.
Back to the grind...???

 

[arm017]

View attachment 6988434
Trying to square up behind the rifle. Wiebad pump pillow for rear support for gun and my upper body.
View attachment 6988435

In this discussion - we are trying to figure out why your 3 barricade shots were high, correct? Frank and Mo are telling you it's a recoil management issue which took half a page to warm up to. So the question now is - how to get most stable from a kneeling supported shot? After ditching the pump pillow, I wouldn't blame the bags in this instance- looks like the AG python bag up front?

Picture one you mentioned getting square behind the rifle, whilst the picture shows you bladed off the side of the rifle. I think this could be part of your issue depending upon how the rifle recoils. This sort of yoga; bladed position can very well introduce some shooter english into the recoil impulse as it will exaggerate the butt stock dropping on recoil. I personally like to shoot a lot of kneeling supported with both knees down. Let your core and hips maintain your midsection square behind the rifle without leaning too far into it- then apply FOM as you did previously on the prone/ bench series.

 

[Cjwise5]

In this discussion - we are trying to figure out why your 3 barricade shots were high, correct? Frank and Mo are telling you it's a recoil management issue which took half a page to warm up to. So the question now is - how to get most stable from a kneeling supported shot? After ditching the pump pillow, I wouldn't blame the bags in this instance- looks like the AG python bag up front?

Picture one you mentioned getting square behind the rifle, whilst the picture shows you bladed off the side of the rifle. I think this could be part of your issue depending upon how the rifle recoils. This sort of yoga; bladed position can very well introduce some shooter english into the recoil impulse as it will exaggerate the butt stock dropping on recoil. I personally like to shoot a lot of kneeling supported with both knees down. Let your core and hips maintain your midsection square behind the rifle without leaning too far into it- then apply FOM as you did previously on the prone/ bench series.

You are correct, my initial question was to test and see what the opinions were on those high shots. I was mostly playing devil's advocate to draw out the conversation and get more detail. I agree it's a recoil management issue. The front bag is the pint sized gamechanger. It's filled with sand and is as heavy as the original larger gamechanger. I also agree that I ended up slightly bladed on the barricade shot. (Bad ankles, I needed to get comfortable) To me that would tend to push the rounds to the left and not necessarily higher. Yes? No?

I'm also really curious about the rail systems like Ingenuity Gun Works. I wonder how that would change things in this scenario.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Compared to your prone and bench you were much more than “slightly bladed.”

While your body might be slightly bladed, you are off to the side of the rifle and not behind it. Perhaps shoot the barricade again and square up on it(may or may not be able to use the pump pillow). See if that brings your poi back to same.

Also, unless you did quite a bit more testing and only put these three groups up, this is far from empirical.

Thus far the only thing you’ve show is if you don’t get behind the rifle square, or manage recoil somehow, the muzzle is going to rise, thus rising the POI.

 

[j-huskey]

Opening the worm can. My original post says the same thing Frank and Morgan say in other posts. Manage fundamentals and manage recoil together consistently and poi shift will shrink like Morgans pics show.
However, there is another factor no-one mentioned.
Back-story. Frank talks about high-power shooters and puts out David Tubb and Tubbs butt position pic.
Unless Frank has done something I'm not aware of, like get a NRA high power shooting rating, and have 20 years experience at it, Frank is commenting from someone else' experience, not his own personal...
I've shot with Tubb b4, own his book, tried his methodology, and reject it.
IT WORKS FOR TUBB, but not for me or 90% of my peers. It's a tool to try. Might work for you.
Adjusting the butt stock, or front hand stop in different high power positions works with adjustable bolt guns/gas guns, but NOT SERVICE RIFLE...
and the adjustment is specific to each individual based on body size and rifle configuration. Frank's adjustment, Tubbs adjustment, and my adjustment might be similar, but will not be the same.

Service rifle, 1903, M1Garand, M1a/M14, m16, etc, shooting positions and techniques are more germaine to this discussion on position and sight changes vs poi changes because the shooter MUST adjust their body to the rifle, and manage fundamentals, recoil, and the rest of the follow through sequence.
The stock on service rifle is a fixed detail, the iron sights are a fixed position unlike adjustable tubb guns or prs usable rifles.

You must adjust you to a service/battle rifle. You can adjust tubb rifles, sniper rifles, prs rifles to you. And... in adjusting YOU to a rifle, you will see positional changes such as the blading mentioned above. Blading has very similar results to pistol shooting charts that show poi points due to heeling, thumbing, etc.

There are some shooting errors that translate to pistol, shotgun, any rifle, and any shooting discipline:;, ie, error, finger pushing the stock/frame, rather than a straight back, no drag fundamental trigger manipulation. The results from this error, pistol, shotgun, rifle, are pushing the weapon horizontally off line away from the force direction.
Fundamentals, after all, are fundamental and universal to all shooting.

In a front of rifle unsupported position, ie, barricade, bipod, loose hold...
Blading, generally allows a rifle to recoil away from the body, and up.
Kneeling can cause any manner of poi shifts. Consistent kneeling depends on maintaining a constant balance point and body position to keep a specific body weight and mass behind the rifle in the exact same manner as a proper prone position requires the body weight behind the rifle.
Not everyone has the physical fitness to maintain a kneeling position that allows similar shot grouping consistency that prone allows.
Physical strength and the ability to maintain balance in kneeling position will determine to a degree the resulting poi or group size.

In shooting service rifle, or in prs awkward positions, we now speak of the one point not covered so far.
Shooting in "the wobble", a service rifle term, and where you break the shot in the wobble. The prone or supported positions give the shooter more stable control of the rifle and reduce the wobble, which results in smaller more consistent groups.
The unstable kneeling position and resulting muscle tension and resulting "body vibration" from straining muscles to hold a position create a greater wobble and a greater chance of breaking the shot in a less than desired position.

OP says we arent robots. This is true, however, the champions over the years in many shooting disciplines, have developed an almost robotic ability to hold their weapon, consistently. Their won championships demonstrate their ability.
As they age and deteriorate, they lose the strength to hold "robotic", and their ability and wins decrease.

The OP may never reach that robotic ability due to many reasons, and may never hold 1st place , or may never have as many national championship wins as David Tubb or John Whidden. Of 800 shooters at Camp Perry, David Tubb won x number of times and 799 shooters took a lower standing. That's the vagaries of shooting.

Throw this post into the mix, and you have another reason why the poi might have ended up where it did. The previous posts cover enough "whys", and probably are the reason for the impact shift, but, where the shot broke in the wobble is critical...

Anybody want to explain why if they know ?

 

[arm017]

You are correct, my initial question was to test and see what the opinions were on those high shots. I was mostly playing devil's advocate to draw out the conversation and get more detail. I agree it's a recoil management issue. The front bag is the pint sized gamechanger. It's filled with sand and is as heavy as the original larger gamechanger. I also agree that I ended up slightly bladed on the barricade shot. (Bad ankles, I needed to get comfortable) To me that would tend to push the rounds to the left and not necessarily higher. Yes? No?

I'm also really curious about the rail systems like Ingenuity Gun Works. I wonder how that would change things in this scenario.

You would be the person that would have to determine where rounds are pushed if you are set up less than ideally behind a rifle. Nobody can tell what it feels like the milliseconds surrounding when you break your shots. I would wager that most shooters in that position would end up pulling shots high before they introduce any horizontal influences.

The rails take you out of the equation. But I think a lot of people, myself included; don't see that as a solution, especially in this case when trying to be scientific in evaluating your original hypothesis of whether POI shifts with different positions. So with your bad ankles I would definitely consider a dual knee down kneeling position similarly squared behind the rifle as in your first two sequences. I think that could help your wobble/ recoil management.

Lastly, this is not a gear problem, just like the rails; But I have stopped shooting APA breaks because the recoil impulse introduced with LBs and FBs both introduced a more vertical recoil impulse that would make it harder to stay on sight picture when spotting shots in my rifles (albeit with much less actual force) than other muzzle breaks on the market. But I came to appreciate a flat recoiling brake over sheer recoil reduction numbers.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Adding one more possible contributing factor: Both prone and off the bench, you used your bipod. When barricaded you balanced the rifle in front of the trigger guard. In the barricade position you moved the point of contact 6 to 8 inches rearward, increasing the moment arm in front of the point of contact.

This alone has the potential to change POI. My suggestion is more weight forward into the rifle, maybe even experiment with moving the support hand to a position on the barrel forward of the scope.

 

[Cjwise5]

Compared to your prone and bench you were much more than “slightly bladed.”

While your body might be slightly bladed, you are off to the side of the rifle and not behind it. Perhaps shoot the barricade again and square up on it(may or may not be able to use the pump pillow). See if that brings your poi back to same.

Also, unless you did quite a bit more testing and only put these three groups up, this is far from empirical.

Thus far the only thing you’ve shown is if you don’t get behind the rifle square, or manage recoil somehow, the muzzle is going to rise, thus rising the POI.

First I'm no scientist. I'm not trying to provide anything "empirical" Second If all you're seeing is perceived negatives from what I'm doing here then you are not being helpful.
I'm not making excuses, because you are right on the fact that I was slightly bladed behind the gun, but again, in my experience that would push the shots left not high.
I also agree that I need to do this test again just to see the results for myself.

 

[Cjwise5]

Opening the worm can. My original post says the same thing Frank and Morgan say in other posts. Manage fundamentals and manage recoil together consistently and poi shift will shrink like Morgans pics show.
However, there is another factor no-one mentioned.
Back-story. Frank talks about high-power shooters and puts out David Tubb and Tubbs butt position pic.
Unless Frank has done something I'm not aware of, like get a NRA high power shooting rating, and have 20 years experience at it, Frank is commenting from someone else' experience, not his own personal...
I've shot with Tubb b4, own his book, tried his methodology, and reject it.
IT WORKS FOR TUBB, but not for me or 90% of my peers. It's a tool to try. Might work for you.
Adjusting the butt stock, or front hand stop in different high power positions works with adjustable bolt guns/gas guns, but NOT SERVICE RIFLE...
and the adjustment is specific to each individual based on body size and rifle configuration. Frank's adjustment, Tubbs adjustment, and my adjustment might be similar, but will not be the same..... shortened the quote for brevity.


Helpful comment. Thank you.

 

[Cjwise5]

You would be the person that would have to determine where rounds are pushed if you are set up less than ideally behind a rifle. Nobody can tell what it feels like the milliseconds surrounding when you break your shots. I would wager that most shooters in that position would end up pulling shots high before they introduce any horizontal influences.

The rails take you out of the equation. But I think a lot of people, myself included; don't see that as a solution, especially in this case when trying to be scientific in evaluating your original hypothesis of whether POI shifts with different positions. So with your bad ankles I would definitely consider a dual knee down kneeling position similarly squared behind the rifle as in your first two sequences. I think that could help your wobble/ recoil management.

Lastly, this is not a gear problem, just like the rails; But I have stopped shooting APA breaks because the recoil impulse introduced with LBs and FBs both introduced a more vertical recoil impulse that would make it harder to stay on sight picture when spotting shots in my rifles (albeit with much less actual force) than other muzzle breaks on the market. But I came to appreciate a flat recoiling brake over sheer recoil reduction numbers.

Good thoughts. Thank you.

 

[Cjwise5]

Adding one more possible contributing factor: Both prone and off the bench, you used your bipod. When barricaded you balanced the rifle in front of the trigger guard. In the barricade position you moved the point of contact 6 to 8 inches rearward, increasing the moment arm in front of the point of contact.

This alone has the potential to change POI. My suggestion is more weight forward into the rifle, maybe even experiment with moving the support hand to a position on the barrel forward of the scope.

Agree, I came to some of the same conclusions. Thank you. I'll have to try that in a follow-up test.

 

[Dthomas3523]

First I'm no scientist. I'm not trying to provide anything "empirical" Second If all you're seeing is perceived negatives from what I'm doing here then you are not being helpful.
I'm not making excuses, because you are right on the fact that I was slightly bladed behind the gun, but again, in my experience that would push the shots left not high.
I also agree that I need to do this test again just to see the results for myself.

Dude, you just want someone to agree with you.

You don’t get to put up a video of a test, then when people point out it wasn’t very good, start crying “I’m not a scientist.” This is weaponized math. Act as such. “Precision” Rifle Network......be precise.

I was making simple observations, nothing negative.

You’re not behind the rifle. You have muzzle hope creating high impacts whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[j-huskey]

*** in this case when trying to be scientific in evaluating your original hypothesis of whether POI shifts with different positions. ***

There is evidence in other shooting disciplines that "in some cases", poi can shift with different positions.
However...

New high power shooters generally see up to a 2 moa shift in sight settings between 200 yard standing and 200 yard sitting. I personally experienced this when I shot high power. As I learned more, experienced more, and received professional coaching, this went away to where I had no sight setting shift (just like Morgans grouping pic shows).

There are a large number of variables that caused it. Some translate to prs barricade and some dont visibly seem to.

Correct npa between positions.... the more correct the npa, the less potential wobble.
The tighter the hold and control of the rifle, the less recoil effect. Less recoil effect, more consistent shot placement.

These two will affect prs barricade when the barricade is designed to move or create a higher level of difficulty.

It's up to the shooter to "own" the rifle and control it regardless of the barricade. The better "ownership and control", the less chance of a shift due to operator experience and error.

Off the high power side and on to potential two way ranges.

Training people prone, bipod, bag, and tee shirt, bare head, produces one result.

Adding long sleeves and a hat brim produces a change.

Adding body armor and a helmet produces yet another change.

Training through these stages will eventually provide one rifle setting that produces the same poi.

This is a matter of fitting the rifle to the shooter and at the same time fitting the shooter to the rifle, as conditions require. Once the compromise is found, and it "clicks" in, hits go up....

This translates to the prs barricade as well, but is more difficult to recognize. It goes back to the ownership and control of the rifle, a balance..

In time with practice, and the demonstrated thought ability (visible in his posts), the OP should find this balance, and see the improvements he wants, unless a physical disability such as aging and a rifle too heavy, too "this or that", keep creating the problems that must be overcome.

Best of results to you OP, keep us posted with your practice session results. We all learn something from these topics.

 

[Lowlight]

Pretty sure Service Rifle Shooters use different zeroes for the different positions. They dial in the changes to their position.

Sterling Shooter used to post on here if you look up his old stuff he spoke about making these adjustments.

That was my point, that other disciplines who shoot from other positions has seen this problem and adapted to it, adjusting either the rifle per position or adjusting the sights to compensate.

Plus if you look at the images posted, the only real difference is the Kneeling, the bench shot is a not a bench shot like a traditional shooter of bench stuff. You are not SITTING at a bench but standing and leaned forward managing recoil just like I said, and in the kneeling, you are up too tall.

Seeing the images it's simple to diagnose vs being told what happened.

 

[j-huskey]

@Frank..
A number of us who shot high power wanted to strangle Sterling Shooter and choke him with a ball gag.... then beat the ball gag down his throat with his favorite service rifle..
The crew across the river from me made a lot of fun about a bunch of his comments. What worked best for him, didnt work for everybody.

Sometimes we know the answer but cant articulate clear enough for some audiences.

 

[Diver160651]

I was hiking with Blaine from FFS and he was mentioning how important his shooter offset feature is and the implication was that many don't seem to truly understand the issue.

What I've seen with newer shooters, especially those pushing with their toes prone that think they need spiked feet or boards and devices on a bench to keep their guns from slipping forward; is very large offset once they try to shoot off a barricade or a slippery surface without those crutches.

Guys that work at balancing the their load prone vrs positional, seem to notice far less offset..

 

[Lowlight]

Are you saying no service rifle shooters change their dope from position to position ?

My point was more to educate then just comment, if you know the "WHY" something happens it easier to fix it, versus being lead down the path blindly and just saying, Fix the shoulder, lean forward more.

Look at the angle of attack on his body in the Standing on the bench, vs the Kneeling, that is the answer, body position

 

[arm017]

@Cjwise5 - I am developing quite a bit of respect for you here on the hide reading through some of your responses to criticisms. You are a very logical thinker, and am happy to see you maintain that student mindset as we all need to be doing in the sport if things don't make sense.

 

[Diver160651]

@Cjwise5 - I am developing quite a bit of respect for you here on the hide reading through some of your responses to criticisms. You are a very logical thinker, and am happy to see you maintain that student mindset as we all need to be doing in the sport if things don't make sense.

Are we witnessing a man-crush in the making? He is rather photogenic

 

[arm017]

that soft soothing voice....

but sometimes that manly humility is refreshing especially from someone who is now in the spotlight

 

[Cjwise5]

Pretty sure Service Rifle Shooters use different zeroes for the different positions. They dial in the changes to their position.

Sterling Shooter used to post on here if you look up his old stuff he spoke about making these adjustments.

That was my point, that other disciplines who shoot from other positions has seen this problem and adapted to it, adjusting either the rifle per position or adjusting the sights to compensate.

Plus if you look at the images posted, the only real difference is the Kneeling, the bench shot is a not a bench shot like a traditional shooter of bench stuff. You are not SITTING at a bench but standing and leaned forward managing recoil just like I said, and in the kneeling, you are up too tall.

Seeing the images it's simple to diagnose vs being told what happened.

Frank, yes I agree about the photos. That's why I posted them, so you guys could critique. If I'm willing to do that then I'm willing to accept criticism. I wouldn't make all these videos for the Precision Rifle Network and put myself out there every single week if I wasn't. There are a couple dudes on this thread who seem to think I'm arguing with them when I'm not.

I never disagreed with any of you on body position and recoil management. That was my personal assessment from the beginning. I just like to ask more questions to draw out all the possible answers.

Frank, when you say my kneeling position was too tall, can you give me more detail please?

 

[Cjwise5]

@Cjwise5 - I am developing quite a bit of respect for you here on the hide reading through some of your responses to criticisms. You are a very logical thinker, and am happy to see you maintain that student mindset as we all need to be doing in the sport if things don't make sense.

Thanks brother. I appreciate it. I definitely don't have all the answers. half of the videos I do on Precision Rifle Network are because I need some kind of answer for myself. lol