Positional Point of Impact Shift?

[j-huskey]

I am not necessarily good with some presentation of the politically correct English verbiage which you will soon see below.
I dont know what Frank's going to say to answer your question about kneeling being too tall, but.
In your standing bench, your center of gravity is centered.... your upper weight is tabled pretty evenly, and your rear weight is evenly centered down both legs to a solid unwavering foot position/kinda anchored. Your Cg gut weight is evenly supported by your arms on table and your legs to ground. You are about 90% solidly balanced to accept the recoil.

If I see the kneeling picture clearly, it doesnt look like your butt is anchored to your left foot, if I have that right...

In your kneeling, your center of gravity is too high, with the height being held up by your left leg. Your right knee is on the ground, but, your left leg is holding your butt in the air, and as left leg strength gives out, your butt is wavering loose in the wind. Center of gravity (your gut and butt body weight) too high, no anchor point, unstable.
Drop cg/anchor butt to left foot, lower right leg, where weight is centered evenly over both legs, and create a more solid foundation to hold the recoil pushback.

That's as close as I can verbiage it, and to what I THINK Frank means. It could be worded, explained better, probably by someone more verbiage able.
If I were standing beside you in that position, I could explain and correct it much faster than trying to type explain it on the internet.

Not my best typing effort tonight, but, it was a well intentioned attempt, please take it as offered that way.

Moving on...?

 

[morganlamprecht]

I’m not sure the actual contour because it was just the only 6mm bartlein that was in stock at the shop when I needed it, but it’s heavier, similar to MTU not a light one and 26”...rifle is probably 16-18lbs, not sure, never weighed it

As far as off tripods goes...I just zero’d mine and a buddy’s hunting rigs a couple weeks ago...both are all carbon fiber builds and sub 9.5lbs scoped...his is 300wm and mine is 6.5prc, both suppressed...i zero’d them at my parents house over a weekend and my only option there is off a tripod...had them both zero’d and then when I got back home I had time to run by the range and shot both from a bench...both still on a 3/4” dot

From my tripod I use my left hand to apply slight downward pressure from above the apex...and other than that I shoot it just like any barricade, and like u mentioned, no matter the prop or position I try to impart the same neutral load position

I also used to use the reverse loading techniques a lot before all the game changer/fortune cookie bags came out...I still use them fairly often on solid props or to hook and pull on pipes and similar...I prefer how they eat up recoil and it allows me faster follow ups

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[brianf]

not to throw another variable in the mix but im a smaller bone structure/frame guy who has a good amount of muscle (body building not lumberjack).
makes different positions a mess sometimes.
never mind trying to get strait behind the rifle, just doesnt happen.
i have to be off about 20 degrees because of my neck/traps/shoulder are just too meaty squeeze it all in there.
from prone to bench i have a stupidly consistent 5/8" shift strait up (260 rem and 300 wm post 14 AX).
tried messing with the stock etc, but went back to just knowing my rifle because i was more consistent with the "inconsistency".

 

[Dthomas3523]

Dthomas, is he using a hard load into the barricade or a neutral load?

He said he’s not using much pressure on his shoulder. So I’d assume more of a nuetral to moderate load.

I load into it, then back off until the reticle calms down. So, as you pointed out, it’s different for each barricade depending on the construction.

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I personally always hit high while positional, that could help me during competitions.

I would suggest using it to identify you can be doing something better and work on it.

You don’t become a better pistol shooter by aiming high right to compensate for low left......you fix the flinch you have in your mechanics.

Same principle here. Work on it and get the POI closer.

I haven’t heard of any high level PRS shooter that has different dope for different positions. If the poi shift was as dramatic as shown in the video, they would need it.

 

[j-huskey]

This is a most interesting discussion that ties in with a couple of other postings that revolve around, fundamentals, legacy skills, and different instructors teaching "basics in context to modern use" (Frank's words), because teaching legacy skills, old school fundamentals, or as I call it, manual human, "takes time, very few people are investing the same amount of time. It's not realistic to teach it anymore, it's a time and effort thing." (Again, Frank's words).
When dthomas posted the video link, and reubenski asked what "method" the link was teaching, Frank's words (from one of those other postings) "in context to modern use clicked". For me....

Brianf's post about xx doesnt work for him due to muscle sizes, etc, along with reubenskis question, about, what method...
points out the difficulty in net solving the OP's question. Everybody's basically saying the same thing, in vernacular particular to their training and understanding of shooting in modern use.

And we are all not on the same page in vernacular, articulating, or language, each of us seeing it in the context of our personal experience and speaking it that way, others do not understand.

If I see it clearly, the OP has a recoil management issue, which created a poi shift with "that zero", but which "in other life", post 60 above, neither dthomas or reubenski see "people changing the zero". Which is in line with my high power zero change comment (most of us didnt) and Frank asking me if no-one changed the zero.

I see, at this point, most people dont change the zero between positions because their zero holds "within an acceptable working range" in context of their shooting, as reubenski said, "a lot happens within that 2moa." That two moa fits the FBI sniper qual and that's my current standard to meet. That two moa is NRA high power perfect points allowed, with x count being moa, and higher x count wins NRA when the points are equal. A lot of other venues points fall inside two moa as well.

And it comes back to how well the hold or technique is mastered by the shooter, to keep those impacts inside one or two moa.

And the type hold is going to matter depending on a lot of things all touched on in this thread, but articulated, more than one way, in, the context of modern shooting.

Frank says it's a time issue involved in so much of this, truth, few people will invest the time, truth,
and I thank all of you who took the time to invest here because I got another tool today to use to train my police snipers to a higher level, thanks to this posting.

And that is to identify clearly if the training will produce the expected result in a great variety of conditions rather than work exceptionally well in one, but suck in 15 others, to eliminate the time wasters.

 

[j-huskey]

@reubenski
Thank you !
jw

 

[morganlamprecht]

All the mentioned above is why I decline offers to teach and train people...if someone at a match or range ask for help, I’ll help them there...but I’m not an instructor, don’t pretend to be, I’m just a shooter

 

[j-huskey]

All the mentioned above is why I decline offers to teach and train people...if someone at a match or range ask for help, I’ll help them there...but I’m not an instructor, don’t pretend to be, I’m just a shooter

Some of us think you would make an excellent instructor. Your posts are very well written and I have learned things reading them, Thank You also !
jw

 

[morganlamprecht]

Appreciate that, I enjoy good detailed threads like these...different views and insights