Possible false ejector wipe/ring?

[Space Jam Darimon]

I’ve got a New Remington 700 308 win I picked up this winter and just got around to being able to shoot last weekend.

So far the only ammo to go through it are the reloads I’ve done for it. I was using data published from Hodgdon for Hornady SST 150gr and Ramshot Tac. The brass used was Starline LRP and the primers were Federal GM210M.

All the brass from the lowest charge to the highest either had ejector wipe, ejector ring or both. I also had some factory Hornady 150 SP that I chambered and pulled out without firing and that had ejector wipe on it as well. While closing the bolt with the reloads and the factory ammo, both feel heavier than what I think to be normal. Possible it’s the rifle, or due to the ejector wipe?

I’ve attached a few picture below.

The first photo is the 44 grain charge. You can see the ring around the “W” in win

The second photo is from the 43.6 grain charge and it starts at the “3 and goes towards the S and T where there is a ring”

In the third photo the factory Hornady ammo and it starts at the “ N in win and goes over to the N in Hornady”

Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[spife7980]

With the bolt removed from the action and in hand slide a round under the extractor and rock it down on the ejector.
Besides the force it takes to overcome the spring, does it recess freely or can you feel it jamming and snagging and resisting you?
Is the ejector rounded over on the corners or squared off?

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

It feels like it recesses freely, no jamming or snagging.
They look rounded off to me.

 

[Doom]

Does the serial number start with RR or RA?

 

[918v]

Hodgdon data based on Winchester commercial case. You used Starline heavy case with less capacity. Over pressure.

 

[spife7980]

And you said even the lowest 41.1 did it?
What are your fired vs sized measurements?

 

[Haney]

Take out the ejector and see what your brass looks like . Marks on an unfired case makes me think you have a burr or one heck of an ejector spring . If you are over pressured the brass will flow into the hole ,that will tell the tale of pressure .

 

[Doom]

Most older 700s will show cratering on the primer at just about any load. Hence question about the S/N.

I don’t believe you have a pressure issue based on the primer still being well rounded. What I will say is the bolt the photo looks pretty abused. Check for a 4 digit marking on the bolt. It should match the last four digits of the S/N

 

[Haney]

Hodgdon data based on Winchester commercial case. You used Starline heavy case with less capacity. Over pressure.

I highly doubt that , look at the primers.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

Does the serial number start with RR or RA?

Serial starts with RA.

Hodgdon data based on Winchester commercial case. You used Starline heavy case with less capacity. Over pressure.

I mean all things are possible, but by the time I hit the 45.8 grain charges wouldn’t there have been something noticeable as to other signs? I’ve attached a picture#1 of a 45.8 case. Looks like the wipe starts where the S is and rings around the T and R.

And you said even the lowest 41.1 did it?
What are your fired vs sized measurements?

Yup, it isn’t as bad I don’t think but you can still see it. I’ve attached a photo which is number 2. You can see where it starts just before the 8 and goes around to the 3.

So the new brass measured. CL-2.003 HS- 1.626 Shoulder- .452 CH- .470 Neck O.D- .337
Fired brass measured CL-2.004 HS- 1.627 Shoulder- .456 CH- .470 Neck Od-.345

Take out the ejector and see what your brass looks like . Marks on an unfired case makes me think you have a burr or one heck of an ejector spring . If you are over pressured the brass will flow into the hole ,that will tell the tale of pressure .

so you’re saying to fire a cartridge without the ejector and see what it does?

Most older 700s will show cratering on the primer at just about any load. Hence question about the S/N.

What I will say is the bolt the photo looks pretty abused. Check for a 4 digit marking on the bolt. It should match the last four digits of the S/N

If you’re referring to the bolt body, that’s how it looked new. However the bolt face is dirty with what I believe to be brass. I can try wiping it off when I get back home.

 

[918v]

I highly doubt that , look at the primers.

Primers are not a reliable indicator of pressure

 

[spife7980]

So the new brass measured. CL-2.003 HS- 1.626 Shoulder- .452 CH- .470 Neck O.D- .337
Fired brass measured CL-2.004 HS- 1.627 Shoulder- .456 CH- .470 Neck Od-.345

Whats standing out to me is that the case head diameter didnt change.
Youre shoulder growth was only .001 so thaat could be the cause if there was a smidge of run out etc but I dont think it would have been difficult to chamber.

Youre measuring that ~.2" up from the bottom to where the case walls start above the solid case head, right?

If so then you found the source, youre going to need a sizing die that sizes your base down to under that .470 number.
But I would have expected the fired number to be closer to .471 so maybe its more of the chamber being small/tight than the brass being big.

You gave the new and fired measurements, have you gotten any brass sized to your chamber that have the issue?

Whats the case head(web) diameter after sizing? (better yet all of them after going through the sizing die)

 

[Haney]

so you’re saying to fire a cartridge without the ejector and see what it does?

Yes, fire some loads with it removed and see if you have brass flow into the hole . If you get a lot of flow it could be pressure . It will also tell you if you have a burr somewhere or a stiff ejector spring . You can also check the plunger to make sure it depresses freely to rule out possible retaining pin hindering movement.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

Whats standing out to me is that the case head diameter didnt change. Youre measuring that ~.2" up from the bottom to where the case walls start above the solid case head, right?
View attachment 7835281

If so then you found the source, youre going to need a die that sizes your base down more if thats correct.

I measured that part incorrectly then, I measured right where the case starts to slope down. I’ll retake that measurement and get back to yah.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

So I had some brass left over from that lot that hasn’t been shot yet and it measured .467 and the fired brass was .469 at that approx .2 down from the case head.

 

[Haney]

Primers are not a reliable indicator of pressure

Yes , I understand that . But in my opinion those primers look just fine .

 

[Haney]

So I had some brass left over from that lot that hasn’t been shit yet and it measured .467 and the fired brass was .469 at that approx .2 down from the case head.

No problems with that.

 

[spife7980]

So I had some brass left over from that lot that hasn’t been shot yet and it measured .467 and the fired brass was .469 at that approx .2 down from the case head.

OK, thats in line. Probably the headspace clearance between the chamber and the brass and possibly a little run out making it touch prematurely.

Your ejector marks dont look egregious so I doubt youre going to be having an accident with what youre seeing.

Clean the bolt face off what you can.

I would size a piece of brass so that your headspace measurement comes out to 1.625 and put the brass into the chamber and see if its still tough in the same way. If it is then relube the piece and size down to 1.624 and so on working your way down. If you get down to 1.620 on that piece and its still tough to chamber then its not the headspace thats giving you issues and creating more headspace clearance by sizing further is just goin to lead to premature case head separation.

(its not tough closing on an empty chamber, is it? If it is then the brass isnt the issue for that)

 

[918v]

I mean all things are possible, but by the time I hit the 45.8 grain charges wouldn’t there have been something noticeable as to other signs? I’ve attached a picture#1 of a 45.8 case. Looks like the wipe starts where the S is and rings around the T and R.

Not necessarily. TAC is a fast burning ball powder. It’s forgiving until it isn’t.

How heavy are your Starline cases? Hodgdons data was developed in Winchester cases that weigh 155 grains. You have cut those numbers by 1-2 grains for heavy brass in the 175-180gr range especially when using fast burning powders.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

OK, thats in line. Probably the headspace clearance between the chamber and the brass and possibly a little run out making it touch prematurely.

Your ejector marks dont look egregious so I doubt youre going to be having an accident with what youre seeing.

Clean the bolt face off what you can.

I would size a piece of brass so that your headspace measurement comes out to 1.625 and put the brass into the chamber and see if its still tough in the same way. If it is then relube the piece and size down to 1.624 and so on working your way down. If you get down to 1.620 on that piece and its still tough to chamber then its not the headspace thats giving you issues and creating more headspace clearance by sizing further is just goin to lead to premature case head separation.

(its not tough closing on an empty chamber, is it? If it is then the brass isnt the issue for that)

So I cleaned the bolt face the best I could removing most of the brass(1St pick below). Afterwards i sized down in .001 increments like you said. At hitting the 1.622 mark it feels better(I think there is still minor swiping happening, you set it at the left of the 8 going right). I attached a picture of the bolt face after doing this. Seems rather dirty again and I think it was messing with my headspace due to shaving of pieces of the head and possibly shortening the brass. After sizing the second piece it was ie. 1.624 instead of 1.623 that was previously sized before. Hope I didn’t make that to confusing.

Not necessarily. TAC is a fast burning ball powder. It’s forgiving until it isn’t.

How heavy are your Starline cases? Hodgdons data was developed in Winchester cases that weigh 155 grains. You have cut those numbers by 1-2 grains for heavy brass in the 175-180gr range especially when using fast burning powders.

Alright, seems like you never quit learning with this. Just as I start to feel comfortable I learn something new that leaves me second guessing.

Out of the ones I weighed 174-175gr.

 

[spife7980]

You are really mashing those cases against the bolt face. Its new and its going to be rougher than a well worn one but still, thats a lot of brass smearing. Looks like your chamber is a bit short. I bet once you get it all fired and then sized to your chamber you will have fixed your issues.

Id still load down though a smidge like 918 is saying. You can turn the scope turret a click or two extra to account for not hammering the shit out of stuff if you can help it.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

Yeah I know and sadly it’s not just the brass I have but also with factory ammo so.

So you’d back the loads down, form the brass to the chamber via firing, resize bumping the shoulder back .002-.003, let the brass and bolt break in then? Then hopefully that’ll take care of it?

What would be the recommendation for backing down on the charge. Based on my results 44.6-44.9 is my node. Obviously safety comes first. Should I start over and see if there is one lower?

 

[spife7980]

Because it happens without firing I believe the brass to be long and thats why its always there. After you get them sized they should no longer be materially jammed up in the chamber.

Because its that much worse on firing and just because of good loading safety principles I would load down. I cant really tell what your actual test was so Id say yes.

 

[918v]

Yeah I know and sadly it’s not just the brass I have but also with factory ammo so.

So you’d back the loads down, form the brass to the chamber via firing, resize bumping the shoulder back .002-.003, let the brass and bolt break in then? Then hopefully that’ll take care of it?

What would be the recommendation for backing down on the charge. Based on my results 44.6-44.9 is my node. Obviously safety comes first. Should I start over and see if there is one lower?

Look at Hornady data vs Hodgdon data for other AA/Ramshot powders. Note it’s quite a bit lighter. For example, Hornady doesn’t have TAC but it does have AA2495 which is almost identical (46grs vs 45.9grs in Hodgdons data). Hornady says 43.3grs is max in their heavier case. Hornady cases sold as reloading components weigh 165grs. They have more internal capacity than Starline or anything in that weight range. Now I’m not saying AA2495 is the same as TAC but it’s close enough to realize that 45grs is way too much in your case.

 

[Haney]

OP, good luck to you . Be careful and sift through these posts and do not take them as gospel .

 

[918v]

Ramshot TAC loads

Ramshot TAC, no others please. Looking for loads for 308 147/150fmjbt, and 175SMK Also looking for 5.56/223 loads for 55fmjbt, and 62fmjbt(to mimic M855/SS109) I know all the H4895 and VArget loads for these so I am only looking for TAC loads. OTHER QUESTIONS if you are using TAC. Do you have...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Dolomite]

Since you’re getting swipe marks on the bolt face cycling factory ammo you could have an issue with the ejector hole or bolt face.

I had a similar issue, fire the brass 2x with a low charge and get a good measurement of the brass using a headspace comparator. Note fired and sized, make sure you’re bumping the shoulder enough and a stripped bolt can drop freely on a sized piece of brass. This will eliminate false brass marks on the bolt face from not bumping the shoulder enough.
Strip your bolt of the firing pin and ejector then cycle the sized case as shown in the video link below.

Here is a video on how to find the headspace.

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

Assuming you are not getting clickers there could be an issue with the chamber or bolt.

 

[rijndael]

Even though this thread has progressed towards headspace and away from pressure, which I think is in the right direction, I wanted to mention that another datapoint you could use to verify pressure/over-pressure is velocity. Chrono data seems like an easy way to rule out some problems.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Since you’re getting swipe marks on the bolt face cycling factory ammo you could have an issue with the ejector hole or bolt face.

I had a similar issue, fire the brass 2x with a low charge and get a good measurement of the brass using a headspace comparator. Note fired and sized, make sure you’re bumping the shoulder enough and a stripped bolt can drop freely on a sized piece of brass. This will eliminate false brass marks on the bolt face from not bumping the shoulder enough.
Strip your bolt of the firing pin and ejector then cycle the sized case as shown in the video link below.

Here is a video on how to find the headspace.

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

Assuming you are not getting clickers there could be an issue with the chamber or bolt.

^^^^^This right here.

Can you take a piece of brass, bump the shoulder back to 1.620”? Or a few thousandths less and fry running that in your chamber?

 

[Doom]

Based on the smear on that last picture of the bolt. I’m leaning on misalignment of the chamber and bolt face. Either RemArms or a gunsmith needs to look at this rifle.

 

[Barelstroker]

I highly doubt that , look at the primers.

I agree. The primer is a good deal thinner & more susceptible to pressure than the case head. Every high pressure load I've ever shot always flattens the primer 100% of the time. Other signs are sometimes present, sometimes not but, flattened primers are always the teller.

 

[918v]

Not always.

In many cases with blown primers, they were not flat at all.

 

[Barelstroker]

Not always.

In many cases with blown primers, they were not flat at all.

I've only had 2 blown primers & that was over 30 years ago. It was some of my 1st reloads of 22-250 & I'm reasonably sure I had the FL sizing die screwed down too far which caused excessive headspace. I've had badly leaking primers & a few that have fallen out when the case was ejected & I know they were too hot but, the only blown primers were the 22-250 & that was because there was enough space for them to be backed out too far & the pressure ruptured them.

 

[918v]

I the OP’s case there is not enough headspace. He is smearing brass off the case head just by closing the bolt. Which is not unusual. I have had several 308 rifles like that. Cases yield to this pretty easily.

The best source for learning how to blow primers are those Reloader-17 threads with people claiming wild velocities with zero pressure signs, then several months later they’re blowing primers without any warning.

That’s what I’m predicting here. Everything is fine until it isn’t, usually in July/August.

 

[Barelstroker]

I the OP’s case there is not enough headspace. He is smearing brass off the case head just by closing the bolt. Which is not unusual. I have had several 308 rifles like that. Cases yield to this pretty easily.

The best source for learning how to blow primers are those Reloader-17 threads with people claiming wild velocities with zero pressure signs, then several months later they’re blowing primers without any warning.

That’s what I’m predicting here. Everything is fine until it isn’t, usually in July/August.

"I have had several 308 rifles like that. Cases yield to this pretty easily."
This has been my experience.
My soon to be Son-in-law recently showed me 3 of his once fired factory brass from his new 243 Win. They were PMC I think & the primers had a little flattening on the corners so it looked like they were up there but nothing to be concerned about. He was showing me the ejector swipe which was barely visible.
On the subject of factory rounds, Federal seem to load em up pretty good. All of my Federal factory fired brass has fairly well flattened primers, more so than Rem, Win, PMC & ADI.

 

[918v]

I think the best gauge of pressure on a Remington is bolt lift. My policy is this: I want the bolt to open as easily as it would on an empty chamber. If it hangs up towards the end of the stroke then the round is too hot.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Check the ejector hole edge, it can have a very small burr that is shaving brass and also leaving what appears to be an ejector outline on the case head......giving a false perception of high pressure brass flow (ejector swipe).

I caught this on a 6gt I built recently using a lone peak fuzion action. So..... even top shelf actions can have these easily overlooked issues.

Ern

 

[Dolomite]

Also once you size and reload (enough shoulder bump based on wheeler videos and lower powder charge to truly eliminate pressure issues) take the ejector and spring out when you shoot the rounds. It could be the ejector hole, the ejector or the ejector spring causing the bolt swipes. Assuming the load is not hot and you size correctly.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

OP, good luck to you . Be careful and sift through these posts and do not take them as gospel .

Thanks mate! For sure.

Ramshot TAC loads

Ramshot TAC, no others please. Looking for loads for 308 147/150fmjbt, and 175SMK Also looking for 5.56/223 loads for 55fmjbt, and 62fmjbt(to mimic M855/SS109) I know all the H4895 and VArget loads for these so I am only looking for TAC loads. OTHER QUESTIONS if you are using TAC. Do you have...

www.snipershide.com

Thanks 918V, some good info in there.

Since you’re getting swipe marks on the bolt face cycling factory ammo you could have an issue with the ejector hole or bolt face.

I had a similar issue, fire the brass 2x with a low charge and get a good measurement of the brass using a headspace comparator. Note fired and sized, make sure you’re bumping the shoulder enough and a stripped bolt can drop freely on a sized piece of brass. This will eliminate false brass marks on the bolt face from not bumping the shoulder enough.
Strip your bolt of the firing pin and ejector then cycle the sized case as shown in the video link below.

Here is a video on how to find the headspace.

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

Assuming you are not getting clickers there could be an issue with the chamber or bolt.

Alright I'll give this a try this evening if I get some time, otherwise ill try it tomorrow.

^^^^^This right here.

Can you take a piece of brass, bump the shoulder back to 1.620”? Or a few thousandths less and fry running that in your chamber?

I did bump one back to 1.622'', it was easier to close the bolt and it did leave minor swiping on the brass.

Based on the smear on that last picture of the bolt. I’m leaning on misalignment of the chamber and bolt face. Either RemArms or a gunsmith needs to look at this rifle.

I did reach out to RemArms this morning and the guy I talked to in customer service, said to run roughly another 35 rounds through it and see if it loosens up. Then if it doesn't to either have a local gunsmith look at it or send it back to them to look at it. He also followed up with him have rifles 20 years old that still do it.

Check the ejector hole edge, it can have a very small burr that is shaving brass and also leaving what appears to be an ejector outline on the case head......giving a false perception of high pressure brass flow (ejector swipe).

I caught this on a 6gt I built recently using a lone peak fuzion action. So..... even top shelf actions can have these easily overlooked issues.

Ok, I think I'll have to get a punch small enough to nock out the roll pin that holds it in or at least I believe that's what holds it in and look at it.

If there does happen to be a burr there, what is the best way to remove it? File or some polishing compunds?

 

[918v]

Don’t knock the pin out. Use something to depress the ejector and then you can check out the hole. I doubt you have a burr.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

Don’t knock the pin out. Use something to depress the ejector and then you can check out the hole. I doubt you have a burr.

So I used a Allen wrench to press and it and look, didn’t see a burr at all unless it’s really tiny.
Is it possible the spring under the ejector is to “stiff” or even to long, thus putting more pressure on the extractor side causing the wipe/smear?

 

[918v]

No. If the headspace is too tight the bolt face will smear the brass on the case head as you rotate it into battery.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

I did bump one back to 1.622'', it was easier to close the bolt and it did leave minor swiping on the brass.

Did you try bumping to smaller than 1.622”?

It sounds like those pieces fit the chamber better.

I’d go 1.618 and see what happens.

Just try a few of them

You can put the brass in the chamber sans bullet and primer for a quick check.

 

[PB&J.]

How smooth is your ejector tip?

My Desert Tech would shred brass just from chambering and unchambering an unfired round when I got it. The ejector tips were pretty rough from parting off and I needed to hone and polish them to get it to stop, but it did stop after that.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

Did you try bumping to smaller than 1.622”?

It sounds like those pieces fit the chamber better.

I’d go 1.618 and see what happens.

Just try a few of them

You can put the brass in the chamber sans bullet and primer for a quick check.

I sized a couple pieces down to 1.620 this morning and I’d say they fit pretty well. It’s close to what I’d say it’s like when closing the chamber with nothing in it, but not quite there.

How smooth is your ejector tip?

My Desert Tech would shred brass just from chambering and unchambering an unfired round when I got it. The ejector tips were pretty rough from parting off and I needed to hone and polish them to get it to stop, but it did stop after that.

It’s ok, but I wouldn’t say great. It looks similar to a tree stump that’s been cut down. There are rings that get bigger the farther from the center you get with a very small one in the center.

 

[John Glidewell]

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

scroll down and watch the sizing brass video

 

[PB&J.]

It’s ok, but I wouldn’t say great. It looks similar to a tree stump that’s been cut down. There are rings that get bigger the farther from the center you get with a very small one in the center.

I thought so. Stoning out that tree stump, radiusing the edge and putting even a dull polish on your ejector will make those "swipes" disappear.

Knock out the roll pin holding in your ejector (be careful not to lose the ejector, spring, or your eye doing this, as that spring is under quite a lot of preload for how small it is).

Once the ejector is out, hit the tip with a diamond plate (wet and dry on a flat surface will do) and radius the edge nice and smooth.

Now is also the PERFECT time to pull your firing pin/spring and check if your brass is tight on headspace. Without the ejector and firing mechanism there should be nothing to give you a false feeling of a sticky bolt close.
It should close freely, if it binds then your brass is tight (most commonly due to not enough shoulder bump).

Pull your ejector and firing pin/spring, chamber a round and let us know how it goes. You will never be able to judge the "feel" of headspace with the firing pin spring and ejector in place, it needs to be done on a bare bolt.

 

[Space Jam Darimon]

I was able to pull the bolt apart this morning and had some time to fiddle with it. The sample brass that I sized down to 1.622 was able to chamber and the bolt fell on its own. The brass that hasn't been touched yet, the 1.625 would not close without pulling the bolt down. I'll have to size a piece and see exactly where in between it'll fall on its own. So once I find the number it'll fall on its own, do I need to bump it a little more or leave it there? I know the guy in the video says he likes to go a little more.

When you say "Diamond Plate" are you referring to the stuff they make toolboxes and stuff out of?

I know at 1.622 there was still wiping on the brass, by buffing that out it should take it away after getting the brass sized to the correct headspace and buffing the ejector?