Powder coating bullets, toxic decomposition products

[elwarpo]

I posted up in another thread about how powdercoating bullets can lead to toxic decomposition products. Another member called me out saying I was full of it... I do not want to publish my name but if a mod wants I will give it to him and a quick google search will prove my credentials.

So lets start a scientific study to see if I am. If at the end the hide determines I am truly full of it, I will apologize. However I expect the person who called me out to be an honorable person and do the same.

Here was my post:
I would avoid powdercoating bullets, under combustion the coating degrades into very toxic carcinogenic chemicals. Read the sds for the coating and look up combustion products. Using and baking the powdercoat also contains toxic materials.
I am a chemist and have been inventing paint for 35 years have many patents and dozens of published technical papers, so do know coatings.

Their reply:
Nope. That theory has been postulated and disproven a number of times already, going back long before you ever heard of powder coating. You're missing two important facts:
- The coating is a thermoset polymer, and behaves differently once cured than the powder does prior to curing.
- The coating does not combust at any point during the firing process. This is plainly evident by looking at recovered bullets. There are no "combustion products" of the coating from firing powder coated bullets.

I don't care what your degree is in, there's always room to learn about a subject from people who've been doing it for years, before you come in and try to "teach" them about it.

SO here is my proof.
He is correct that powdercoat systems are thermoset, 2 or more reactive coatings raw materials react forming the thermoset. However, being a thermoset does not make it indestructible.

There are several different chemistries used in powdercoat and not all are equal... You have the resin and the crosslinker.
Most powdercoat use polyester resins.
The crosslinkers for polyester resins are TGIC (triglycidyl isocyanurate) or Isocyanate. TGIC is most common in the US.

Epoxy based powdercoat is the next most common and account for about half the volume of polyester powdercoat systems. They have great adhesion to metals, provide good corrosion resistance and have very poor UV resistance.

On rare occasions acrylic resins may be used instead of polyester resins with the same crosslinkers. They are small volume and used where better chemical resistance is needed (such as the top of washing machines because they resist soap residue better). They are more expensive than polyester resins.

Fluorocarbon based powder coatings are specialized for extreme UV resistance, and very expensive. I doubt these will be used on bullets since they are rare.

Primid systems use HAA (β-hydroxyl-alkyl amide) as a crosslinker with polyesters to reduce the toxicity of the TGIC crosslinker, they are often called TGIC-Free. They were developed and are used in Europe more than here due to the regulations banning TGIC for health reasons.

The last group of powder coatings resins are called hybrid because they are a blend of different systems (polyester and epoxy or polyester and acrylic).

So lets look at the systems and health effects of the most used tones - Polyester/TGIC and Epoxy. I will link in safety data sheets so you can read them. Look at section 2 hazardous ingredients. Section 4 refers to first aid when you come into contact with the unreacted powder. Section 5 fire fighting refers to complete combustion of the material in a fire. The big issue is the temperature range from where thermal decomposition starts to the point where complete combustion takes place, between these 2 temperatures the thermoset polymer breaks back into the components, and at that temperature the components volatilize into gases we breathe.

Polyester TGIC
SDS for polyester TGIC system

Epoxy
SDS for Epoxy Powdercoat

In my next post I will get into published scientific articles on thermal decomposition byproducts of powder coatings.

 

[Aftermath]

I posted up in another thread about how powdercoating bullets can lead to toxic decomposition products. Another member called me out saying I was full of it... I do not want to publish my name but if a mod wants I will give it to him and a quick google search will prove my credentials.

So lets start a scientific study to see if I am. If at the end the hide determines I am truly full of it, I will apologize. However I expect the person who called me out to be an honorable person and do the same.

Here was my post:
I would avoid powdercoating bullets, under combustion the coating degrades into very toxic carcinogenic chemicals. Read the sds for the coating and look up combustion products. Using and baking the powdercoat also contains toxic materials.
I am a chemist and have been inventing paint for 35 years have many patents and dozens of published technical papers, so do know coatings.

Their reply:
Nope. That theory has been postulated and disproven a number of times already, going back long before you ever heard of powder coating. You're missing two important facts:
- The coating is a thermoset polymer, and behaves differently once cured than the powder does prior to curing.
- The coating does not combust at any point during the firing process. This is plainly evident by looking at recovered bullets. There are no "combustion products" of the coating from firing powder coated bullets.

I don't care what your degree is in, there's always room to learn about a subject from people who've been doing it for years, before you come in and try to "teach" them about it.

SO here is my proof.
He is correct that powdercoat systems are thermoset, 2 or more reactive coatings raw materials react forming the thermoset. However, being a thermoset does not make it indestructible.

There are several different chemistries used in powdercoat and not all are equal... You have the resin and the crosslinker.
Most powdercoat use polyester resins.
The crosslinkers for polyester resins are TGIC (triglycidyl isocyanurate) or Isocyanate. TGIC is most common in the US.

Epoxy based powdercoat is the next most common and account for about half the volume of polyester powdercoat systems. They have great adhesion to metals, provide good corrosion resistance and have very poor UV resistance.

On rare occasions acrylic resins may be used instead of polyester resins with the same crosslinkers. They are small volume and used where better chemical resistance is needed (such as the top of washing machines because they resist soap residue better). They are more expensive than polyester resins.

Fluorocarbon based powder coatings are specialized for extreme UV resistance, and very expensive. I doubt these will be used on bullets since they are rare.

Primid systems use HAA (β-hydroxyl-alkyl amide) as a crosslinker with polyesters to reduce the toxicity of the TGIC crosslinker, they are often called TGIC-Free. They were developed and are used in Europe more than here due to the regulations banning TGIC for health reasons.

The last group of powder coatings resins are called hybrid because they are a blend of different systems (polyester and epoxy or polyester and acrylic).

So lets look at the systems and health effects of the most used tones - Polyester/TGIC and Epoxy. I will link in safety data sheets so you can read them. Look at section 2 hazardous ingredients. Section 4 refers to first aid when you come into contact with the unreacted powder. Section 5 fire fighting refers to complete combustion of the material in a fire. The big issue is the temperature range from where thermal decomposition starts to the point where complete combustion takes place, between these 2 temperatures the thermoset polymer breaks back into the components, and at that temperature the components volatilize into gases we breathe.

Polyester TGIC
SDS for polyester TGIC system

Epoxy
SDS for Epoxy Powdercoat

In my next post I will get into published scientific articles on thermal decomposition byproducts of powder coatings.

So.....does powdercoating change the diameter of the bullet enough to cause problems in the bore? What about neck tension? What does powdercoating a bullet do to the bore of the rifle? Does powdercoating do anything to the velocity of a particular combination of components?

 

[hlee]

So.....does powdercoating change the diameter of the bullet enough to cause problems in the bore? What about neck tension? What does powdercoating a bullet do to the bore of the rifle? Does powdercoating do anything to the velocity of a particular combination of components?

I watched a few YouTube videos. Apparently, powder coating is applied to cast lead bullets, which are then run through a bullet swagger to bring them to the correct diameter. This was a guy pouring his own pistol bullets from range scrap lead pulled from bullet berms. Does anyone powder coat bullets for rifles? I don’t know.

 

[Secant]

TL/DR

But one of my first jobs was powder coating all kinds of shit, and I’m def more retardeder for having worked that job.

I never powder coated bullets, and yeah the coating would add thickness.

 

[srt-4_uk]

Does anyone powder coat bullets for rifles? I don’t know.

Yes

Missouri Bullet Company

Missouri Bullet Company offers premium lead bullets at affordable prices. We make hardness optimized bullets for the velocity of the loads you shoot.

missouribullet.com

 

[tomme boy]

Yep, I do 30 cal 190gr at 2400fps and 224 65gr at 2640fps. But it takes a lot more than just powder coating a bullet to make it shoot. I have run the 224 up to 3400fps. Accuracy was worse than fmj but close. No leading what so ever. Think of it as the same thing as a jacketed bullet but with limitations.

Federal offers factory loaded ammo that is powder coated. They were loosing out on sales because of how easy and cheap it is to PC bullets. So they started to sell them. But it is still cheaper to do your own.

 

[Aftermath]

I guess I see no advantage at all. More work. Less accurate. Less velocity(?). Limitations.

Who wants limitations?

 

[Gustav7]

I guess I see no advantage at all. More work. Less accurate. Less velocity(?). Limitations.

Who wants limitations?

In rifle, yes, some limitations... depends on what you're doing. Shooting 10-20k rounds of 9mm a year for USPSA? Shooting any revolver? Shooting lever guns at low to moderate velocities? Shooting subsonic based calibers(i.e. 300blk)? yes yes yes yes. Its substantially cheaper, even if you buy the commercial coated cast bullets.

No advantage for precision rifle, but plenty of other applications.

 

[softcock]

Yes

Missouri Bullet Company

Missouri Bullet Company offers premium lead bullets at affordable prices. We make hardness optimized bullets for the velocity of the loads you shoot.

missouribullet.com

I like those Missouri 215 flat-points , shot a crapload of Subsonic threw the 30-221 boltgun . it Does Save money for just sitting playing, and throwing a 100 or 200 Hail Mary's down range at a time . I Don't use them for High Vel. as jacketed performs far better.

For pistol 9mm, tried a couple thousand poly-coated, and went back to Xtreme and Berry's Copper plated , I got no real bitch against 9mm coated in just banging steel in action range. I really think for 9mm I seen No real difference in performance.
.

 

[srt-4_uk]

For USPSA, powder coated bullets were awesome. Not smokey like lead and cheaper than plated.

 

[b6graham]

my friend and I have run thousands and thousands and thousands of hand cast and powder coated pistol bullets through glocks (real powder coating, not the other coatings companies use)

we sized them before AND after coating

if anything was going to give me cancer it was the smelting of range berm dirt...not the millisecond of powder coating flash heat from primer/powder

 

[tomme boy]

You have to look at most casting bullets as FREE. I use free lead. I make my own gas checks for rifle rounds. Powder coat cost around $20/lb. That is enough for at least 40K bullets. Other than that it is your time. Pistol cal. shooting there is no limits on how you can shoot these. Rifle you can match most factory loads. Except when it comes to precision. I can keep most all rifle loads under 1" but I have to limit the speeds to around 2400fps. This is out of 16" AR15 or AR10 type of rifles.

I see lots of rifles out there that are 2 MOA rifles shooting FGMM and some of the other match ammo. So my lead bullets let me get a lot of practice that is not going to cost me an arm and a leg.

 

[hlee]

Based on the wage I’m payed, unless free lead is dropped off at the door in a ready to cast state, free lead is pretty expensive.

 

[elwarpo]

So their is a nice paper published that talks about toxic thermal decomposition products of both Polyester TGIC and Epoxy powder coatings.

The paper used Thermogravametry/ Differential Thermal Analysis analysis (heat it up and see the phase changes and decomposition). then they run it through a gas chromotograph/mass spectrophotometer to determine what the gasses contain. They did it for the raw materials and the final coating. The raw materials decomposed at 200°C/392°F and the coating about 300°C/572°F.

These temperatures are easily reached during the burning of the propellant and friction of the bullet down the barrel.

Here is their conclusion.
Conclusion
In this work was observed, under thermal heating
conditions, that cured coatings of polyester resin for-
mulation containing TGIC, and coating of epoxy resin
formulation without TGIC decompose and liberate
toxic products as benzene, phenol, among others, as
the result of thermal degradation process.
The separation and identification analysis devel-
oped by the TG/DTA–GC/MS coupled system had
identified toxic products evolved in the decomposition
of the polyester and epoxy resins. The identification of
similar products in the resin and the polyester coating
confirms the origin of the formulation. The thermal
oxidation stability of the coatings after curing is
greater than those of the individual resins, as expected
by the reticulation of the resins chains occurred during
the cure process.

So anyone who doubts powdercoated bullets are not producing toxic/carcinogenic chemicals, please post up your data.

I have many other papers like this I would be happy to quote.

 

[elwarpo]

my friend and I have run thousands and thousands and thousands of hand cast and powder coated pistol bullets through glocks (real powder coating, not the other coatings companies use)

we sized them before AND after coating

if anything was going to give me cancer it was the smelting of range berm dirt...not the millisecond of powder coating flash heat from primer/powder

Lead does not give you cancer. Benzene, phenol... will. Both are liberated by the thermal decomposition of powdercoating.

When people said cigarettes gave you cancer, most smokers said the same thing, but in the end, no one disagrees with it.

I hope you have good ventillation when you powdercoat, because that will poison you too.

 

[Franko]

This may derail the thread a bit but do you have an opinion on the toxicity of polymer coated lead bullets combustion products? I don't shoot powercoated but do shoot polymer and you have me wondering...

 

[Yondering]

This may derail the thread a bit but do you have an opinion on the toxicity of polymer coated lead bullets combustion products? I don't shoot powercoated but do shoot polymer and you have me wondering...

Powder coating is polymer, at least the kind used for bullets. It's polyester. So what are you asking, and what are you saying you shoot?

 

[Yondering]

So their is a nice paper published that talks about toxic thermal decomposition products of both Polyester TGIC and Epoxy powder coatings.
View attachment 7935647

The paper used Thermogravametry/ Differential Thermal Analysis analysis (heat it up and see the phase changes and decomposition). then they run it through a gas chromotograph/mass spectrophotometer to determine what the gasses contain. They did it for the raw materials and the final coating. The raw materials decomposed at 200°C/392°F and the coating about 300°C/572°F.

These temperatures are easily reached during the burning of the propellant and friction of the bullet down the barrel.

Here is their conclusion.
Conclusion
In this work was observed, under thermal heating
conditions, that cured coatings of polyester resin for-
mulation containing TGIC, and coating of epoxy resin
formulation without TGIC decompose and liberate
toxic products as benzene, phenol, among others, as
the result of thermal degradation process.
The separation and identification analysis devel-
oped by the TG/DTA–GC/MS coupled system had
identified toxic products evolved in the decomposition
of the polyester and epoxy resins. The identification of
similar products in the resin and the polyester coating
confirms the origin of the formulation. The thermal
oxidation stability of the coatings after curing is
greater than those of the individual resins, as expected
by the reticulation of the resins chains occurred during
the cure process.

So anyone who doubts powdercoated bullets are not producing toxic/carcinogenic chemicals, please post up your data.

I have many other papers like this I would be happy to quote.

You're stuck on the fact that burning the powder coating produces toxic gasses. That's pretty obvious; we all know that burning plastic is bad.

But you seem to be ignoring the fact that the powder coating doesn't burn during firing. An instant of flash heating by the powder doesn't necessarily mean that the bullet or coating reaches those temps.
I pointed that out several times in the other thread, and even provided multiple examples of photographic proof. Here's one of them again.

All of these coating colors turn brown and then black when they reach temperatures that cause them to break down; I've seen that when re-melting them. But I don't see any evidence of it here.

If you want to argue that the powder coating is dangerous to handle, and probably releases toxic fumes while curing - then I think any of us with experience doing this will agree. That's why we take safety precautions, like lots of ventilation and avoiding skin contact.

But burning in the barrel? Nah. It doesn't happen.
People used to argue that it'd wear out barrels really fast too, but that's another theory that was proven wrong.

One more comment - very few people on this forum know much about powder coating bullets; you're asking the wrong people to arbitrate for you. This is a precision rifle forum, which is not where powder coated bullets really apply. Go over to the castboolits forum and ask this. Better yet, search for all the other times it's been brought up.

 

[b6graham]

Lead does not give you cancer. Benzene, phenol... will. Both are liberated by the thermal decomposition of powdercoating.

When people said cigarettes gave you cancer, most smokers said the same thing, but in the end, no one disagrees with it.

I hope you have good ventillation when you powdercoat, because that will poison you too.

i'm talking about powder coating...the topic of this thread...not lead

i'd go into more detail but yondering has it covered in the post above this one

 

[Franko]

Powder coating is polymer, at least the kind used for bullets. It's polyester. So what are you asking, and what are you saying you shoot?

I am ignorant on this subject and it's something that I never really thought about until I read this thread. I will be doing some reading up on it now.

Thank you for the information.

 

[BipThatInstance]

So, just stick with plated bullets?

 

[Yondering]

I am ignorant on this subject and it's something that I never really thought about until I read this thread. I will be doing some reading up on it now.

Thank you for the information.

If you're old enough to remember polyester pants - we're putting that stuff on bullets now!

It's weird stuff though; it's a thin flexible polymer layer about as thick as a plastic shopping bag, which you wouldn't think would hold up in a barrel very well. But it achieves the goal of separating the lead from the barrel, and reduces friction enough that it doesn't get wiped off the bullet by the rifling.

About 10 years ago, before we had an easy way to coat bullets, a bunch of us bullet casters were experimenting with different coatings. Lots of different types of paints were tried, I messed around with some spray epoxy coating and a bunch of different aerosol dry lubes, but nothing worked as well as powder coating. At the time, those of us who were powder coating used a wet process of mixing the powder with a solvent like acetone, then rolling the bullets around in it and setting them out to dry. It did work, but was slow.

Then in late summer 2013, I experimented with trying to apply the powder dry, and found that the white plastic yogurt tubs worked really well to generate enough static to stick the powder to the bullets. I first published my method on the old 10mm Firearms forum, and then a number of other places like the one linked below. I think it's likely other people discovered the same method, because it took off and within a couple years became commonplace among a lot of bullet casters.

Here is the method I developed; I could re-post it here but that thread has a lot of useful questions and answers.
Powder Coating Quick and Easy

Hope that helps!

 

[Yondering]

I guess I see no advantage at all. More work. Less accurate. Less velocity(?). Limitations.

Who wants limitations?

For precision rifle - yes. Cast lead bullets are not generally in the same realm as precision riflery (other than the long range black powder guys), and powder coating is strictly a cast lead bullet thing. It's not something you would do with jacketed bullets.

But for cast lead bullets - it's not a limitation at all. In fact, powder coating is the best thing for cast bullets since affordable bullet molds. It allows a cast bullet to be far more tolerant of different alloys, hardness, and size compared to a conventionally lubed bullet, and also allows far higher velocity capability. Many of us have used powder coated cast rifle bullets over 3,000 fps with decent accuracy and no leading, which is extremely difficult to achieve with lubed lead.

And for subsonic suppressed loads, which was the topic of the other thread the OP started this in - there is nothing better than the powder coated lead bullet. They don't lead up a suppressor like a lubed bullet, and are much easier to work up subsonic loads for in a lot of cartridges than jacketed bullets due to the much lower start pressure.

Plated bullets were mentioned too, but plated bullets are made with very soft lead cores - this is usually detrimental to accuracy. A cast/coated bullet can be adjusted for enough hardness to grip the rifling more consistently and provide better accuracy; I've tried this many times myself and always switched back to my own cast bullets because it's so much easier to get better accuracy, as well as MUCH higher velocity capability.

So no, in the applications it's used for, powder coating for cast bullets is not a limitation. It's less work, more accurate, and capable of higher velocity. I'd sign up for those "limitations" any day.

 

[elwarpo]

If you burn a polymer it will go black. if you fast burn a polymer it ablates and sublimates (goes directly from solid to gas) and you do not see black.

Just because you do not see the degradation does not mean it does not happen. I do not have powdercoated bullets but will run this test for you Yondering. I will weigh each bullet on a balance that goes to .0001g (.0015 grains). Load them and fire them into water, then dry and weigh them again. If you wish I can call you up on video and you can watch the process. If they lose weight then that means something happened to the coating. If they do not, then i will concede.

On a side note, if you want to put static on bullets before coating, an old trick is to get some polyester fake fur and rub it with glass or another plastic. Put the bullets on the fake fur and instant static transfer. Rubbing the youghurt container with fake fur will really increase the static.

I would also like to talk to you in person and PMed you my number.

 

[Yondering]

On a side note, if you want to put static on bullets before coating, an old trick is to get some polyester fake fur and rub it with glass or another plastic. Put the bullets on the fake fur and instant static transfer. Rubbing the youghurt container with fake fur will really increase the static.

Interesting, but not need for it really. If you follow my process described in that link, it already works as intended without any added steps. Many people have attempted to add steps to the process over the years, with things like airsoft bbs, sifting screens, tumblers, and more, but none of it is necessary or helpful - the simplest & easiest way to achieve a desired result is best. And, there is no need or benefit to adding a thicker coating with more static; that just makes bullets stick together during curing and more difficult to break apart.

As to your test - if you're not an experienced cast bullet reloader, there are a number of details about it that can change results and lead you to a false conclusion. While I doubt you're going to see any difference in weight of the coating, it's easy to end up losing some lead, which is a whole different topic.

Also, you need to know that most commecial cast bullets are coated with Hi-Tek or something similar, which is not the same thing as powder coating. In my experience it's generally less effective.

 

[elwarpo]

I have reloaded a lot of cast 158 gr swc in 38 and 357. Used to shoot a lot of PPC and the only way I was able to afford it was cast lead bullets. This is one reason I am worried about what I breath when I shoot. I stopped shooting cast lead 20 years ago when i found out I had elevated lead in my blood, It is still elevated 20 years later. This is why I considered powdercoated bullets. I even used federal syntech polymer coated bullets. I was working on a powder coating project for work a few years ago and came across the article. This led me to do a lot of research and the more I dug into powder coating and sublimation, the more I became worried. You are correct only very little vaporizes, and is it more toxic than the combustion products of the powder and primer is unklnown. Especially now with the shortage and people buying what they can find, and a lot may be even more unhealthy. but having had cancer once I never want it again. I am not saying to not shoot powder coated bullets, just to do it with more caution because of the potential carcinogenic combustion side products.

 

[tomme boy]

The main problem is when one does not cook the bullets long or hot enough for the PC to cure. I have been at the range when other were shooting their bullets and you can smell burning plastic. The Hitec also does this. Some of the commercial casters were not cooking long enough to speed up production. Boy you could smell the plastic from 20 feet away in a lite breeze. I am sure there is some gas coming off. Shoot inside and you will see what I mean. You can tell when someone is shooting them. At least I can.

I will not be going back to lubed bullets. The benefits to PC are way too great to step backwards

 

[Yondering]

I would avoid powdercoating bullets, under combustion the coating degrades into very toxic carcinogenic chemicals.

I am not saying to not shoot powder coated bullets, just to do it with more caution because of the potential carcinogenic combustion side products.

Hmm, that's a bit different than your first claim from the other thread, which I've quoted here. If you'd said that last bit to start with, I'd have had a different response.

But making that first claim, as a guy who's never used a powder coated bullet?
You can't claim to be approaching this scientifically and make a claim like that - it's pure conjecture. Or if you want to be scientific - it's an unproven hypothesis. If your claims about your background are correct, then you'll know what the Scientific Method is. You made the claim, it's up to you to prove it or not before stating it as fact.

 

[Yondering]

The main problem is when one does not cook the bullets long or hot enough for the PC to cure. I have been at the range when other were shooting their bullets and you can smell burning plastic. The Hitec also does this. Some of the commercial casters were not cooking long enough to speed up production. Boy you could smell the plastic from 20 feet away in a lite breeze. I am sure there is some gas coming off. Shoot inside and you will see what I mean. You can tell when someone is shooting them. At least I can.

I will not be going back to lubed bullets. The benefits to PC are way too great to step backwards

Yeah, if they're not getting cured properly before loading, that's a whole different story. If you can smell them I'm sure there's some nasty stuff there. That's why I've always said to do the coating in a ventilated garage or outside, not indoors and definitely not in the kitchen.

The other side of that is if the coating isn't cured well, then it's not going to be effective either. That will generate significant lead vapor or dust that you can inhale, which is IMO a more significant hazard.

I was tested and had high lead blood levels in 2012, which is why I experimented so much with powder coating over the next year or so. I don't shoot traditional lubed lead any more. Over 1,500 lb of powder coated lead bullets later (mostly 9mm, but lots of other pistols and some rifle rounds too, I'm estimating 70,000-80,000 rounds), my levels are normal. Heavy metal poisoning is a real issue that a lot of cast bullet shooters disregarded in the past, but powder coating has the ability to prevent that. If you see gray smoke, that's lead, not dirty powder even if it's Unique; avoid breathing it and consider changing something to avoid it.

 

[Tdjguns]

I posted up in another thread about how powdercoating bullets can lead to toxic decomposition products. Another member called me out saying I was full of it... I do not want to publish my name but if a mod wants I will give it to him and a quick google search will prove my credentials.

So lets start a scientific study to see if I am. If at the end the hide determines I am truly full of it, I will apologize. However I expect the person who called me out to be an honorable person and do the same.

Here was my post:
I would avoid powdercoating bullets, under combustion the coating degrades into very toxic carcinogenic chemicals. Read the sds for the coating and look up combustion products. Using and baking the powdercoat also contains toxic materials.
I am a chemist and have been inventing paint for 35 years have many patents and dozens of published technical papers, so do know coatings.

Their reply:
Nope. That theory has been postulated and disproven a number of times already, going back long before you ever heard of powder coating. You're missing two important facts:
- The coating is a thermoset polymer, and behaves differently once cured than the powder does prior to curing.
- The coating does not combust at any point during the firing process. This is plainly evident by looking at recovered bullets. There are no "combustion products" of the coating from firing powder coated bullets.

I don't care what your degree is in, there's always room to learn about a subject from people who've been doing it for years, before you come in and try to "teach" them about it.

SO here is my proof.
He is correct that powdercoat systems are thermoset, 2 or more reactive coatings raw materials react forming the thermoset. However, being a thermoset does not make it indestructible.

There are several different chemistries used in powdercoat and not all are equal... You have the resin and the crosslinker.
Most powdercoat use polyester resins.
The crosslinkers for polyester resins are TGIC (triglycidyl isocyanurate) or Isocyanate. TGIC is most common in the US.

Epoxy based powdercoat is the next most common and account for about half the volume of polyester powdercoat systems. They have great adhesion to metals, provide good corrosion resistance and have very poor UV resistance.

On rare occasions acrylic resins may be used instead of polyester resins with the same crosslinkers. They are small volume and used where better chemical resistance is needed (such as the top of washing machines because they resist soap residue better). They are more expensive than polyester resins.

Fluorocarbon based powder coatings are specialized for extreme UV resistance, and very expensive. I doubt these will be used on bullets since they are rare.

Primid systems use HAA (β-hydroxyl-alkyl amide) as a crosslinker with polyesters to reduce the toxicity of the TGIC crosslinker, they are often called TGIC-Free. They were developed and are used in Europe more than here due to the regulations banning TGIC for health reasons.

The last group of powder coatings resins are called hybrid because they are a blend of different systems (polyester and epoxy or polyester and acrylic).

So lets look at the systems and health effects of the most used tones - Polyester/TGIC and Epoxy. I will link in safety data sheets so you can read them. Look at section 2 hazardous ingredients. Section 4 refers to first aid when you come into contact with the unreacted powder. Section 5 fire fighting refers to complete combustion of the material in a fire. The big issue is the temperature range from where thermal decomposition starts to the point where complete combustion takes place, between these 2 temperatures the thermoset polymer breaks back into the components, and at that temperature the components volatilize into gases we breathe.

Polyester TGIC
SDS for polyester TGIC system

Epoxy
SDS for Epoxy Powdercoat

In my next post I will get into published scientific articles on thermal decomposition byproducts of powder coatings.

 

[Tdjguns]

So I powdercoat both pistol bullets made from lead and I powdercoated some .224 bullets for 223. I'm not sure what the concern would be exactly because the 223 bullets that I tested as an example for testing I run 53gr cast bullets powdercoated with 25gr of Tac. I loaded 2 thirty round mags and shot my M4 suppressed just doing a fast mag dump trying to make them fail. Ie FTF or FTE. After that I completely disassembled the gun and cleaned. There was no kiwi green colored powdercoat found in the barrel, gas tube or bcg. So I'm not sure what the concern would be. The chemicals used to clean are more likely more dangerous than what is residual in the gun. I have also melted a powdercoated 9mm bullet with a map torch, the lead melts faster than what the coating disintegrates in. Meaning the coatingactually remain structural of sort with molten lead inside until it finds a defect to flow out of. I guess I understand the possible concern but I'm not sure it actually applies since its only in the barrel a fraction of a second after being fired.

 

[elwarpo]

Hmm, that's a bit different than your first claim from the other thread, which I've quoted here. If you'd said that last bit to start with, I'd have had a different response.

But making that first claim, as a guy who's never used a powder coated bullet?
You can't claim to be approaching this scientifically and make a claim like that - it's pure conjecture. Or if you want to be scientific - it's an unproven hypothesis. If your claims about your background are correct, then you'll know what the Scientific Method is. You made the claim, it's up to you to prove it or not before stating it as fact.

I stand by that.
I would avoid using them, states exactly I would avoid them, not do not shoot them. If you are going to shoot them, then use caution.

I still have not seen you post anything showing they are safe, besides saying you used them for years.

Please post up some info showing there is not a risk.

 

[Yondering]

I stand by that.
I would avoid using them, states exactly I would avoid them, not do not shoot them. If you are going to shoot them, then use caution.

I still have not seen you post anything showing they are safe, besides saying you used them for years.

Please post up some info showing there is not a risk.

I don't have any need to prove anything to you. You're the one making a claim you can't prove; if you actually had any idea how science works you'd realize this. It's become clear that you're not here to learn anything, you're just here to prove a point regardless of the evidence. So much for claiming to be scientific, or even rational.

I'm done with the silly nerd stuff. I'm happy to answer other people's questions or comments about the subject, but you're on your own.

 

[cas6969]

I feel safe in saying if you're casting bullets, especially reusing old bullets, coating them, and shooting them. The shooting is the safest part of the process.

 

[308pirate]

I have reloaded a lot of cast 158 gr swc in 38 and 357. Used to shoot a lot of PPC and the only way I was able to afford it was cast lead bullets. This is one reason I am worried about what I breath when I shoot. I stopped shooting cast lead 20 years ago when i found out I had elevated lead in my blood, It is still elevated 20 years later. This is why I considered powdercoated bullets. I even used federal syntech polymer coated bullets. I was working on a powder coating project for work a few years ago and came across the article. This led me to do a lot of research and the more I dug into powder coating and sublimation, the more I became worried. You are correct only very little vaporizes, and is it more toxic than the combustion products of the powder and primer is unklnown. Especially now with the shortage and people buying what they can find, and a lot may be even more unhealthy. but having had cancer once I never want it again. I am not saying to not shoot powder coated bullets, just to do it with more caution because of the potential carcinogenic combustion side products.

What temperature does the polymer, that most commercial bullet manufacturers use, need to reach before it begins to sublimate? How long of an exposure to powder flame is needed before the polymer reaches sublimation temperature?

Those are things that matter when evaluating how much of a risk is posed by what you claim.

Without knowing the time element, for all we know the bullet is gone from the pistol long before it's had time to heat up sufficiently to emit any vapors or gasses and your concern is nothing but academic.

 

[Bubs]

I don't powdercoat,I HiTek,which is a liquid coating/temp cured.The MSBS sheet denotes toxicity of fumes,not firing.I have 2 AR uppers that have over 2k through each,never seen a jacketed bullet.Great stuff,shoot a lot because it's cheap.

 

[Supervel]

I posted up in another thread about how powdercoating bullets can lead to toxic decomposition products. Another member called me out saying I was full of it... I do not want to publish my name but if a mod wants I will give it to him and a quick google search will prove my credentials.

So lets start a scientific study to see if I am. If at the end the hide determines I am truly full of it, I will apologize. However I expect the person who called me out to be an honorable person and do the same.

Here was my post:
I would avoid powdercoating bullets, under combustion the coating degrades into very toxic carcinogenic chemicals. Read the sds for the coating and look up combustion products. Using and baking the powdercoat also contains toxic materials.
I am a chemist and have been inventing paint for 35 years have many patents and dozens of published technical papers, so do know coatings.

Their reply:
Nope. That theory has been postulated and disproven a number of times already, going back long before you ever heard of powder coating. You're missing two important facts:
- The coating is a thermoset polymer, and behaves differently once cured than the powder does prior to curing.
- The coating does not combust at any point during the firing process. This is plainly evident by looking at recovered bullets. There are no "combustion products" of the coating from firing powder coated bullets.

I don't care what your degree is in, there's always room to learn about a subject from people who've been doing it for years, before you come in and try to "teach" them about it.

SO here is my proof.
He is correct that powdercoat systems are thermoset, 2 or more reactive coatings raw materials react forming the thermoset. However, being a thermoset does not make it indestructible.

There are several different chemistries used in powdercoat and not all are equal... You have the resin and the crosslinker.
Most powdercoat use polyester resins.
The crosslinkers for polyester resins are TGIC (triglycidyl isocyanurate) or Isocyanate. TGIC is most common in the US.

Epoxy based powdercoat is the next most common and account for about half the volume of polyester powdercoat systems. They have great adhesion to metals, provide good corrosion resistance and have very poor UV resistance.

On rare occasions acrylic resins may be used instead of polyester resins with the same crosslinkers. They are small volume and used where better chemical resistance is needed (such as the top of washing machines because they resist soap residue better). They are more expensive than polyester resins.

Fluorocarbon based powder coatings are specialized for extreme UV resistance, and very expensive. I doubt these will be used on bullets since they are rare.

Primid systems use HAA (β-hydroxyl-alkyl amide) as a crosslinker with polyesters to reduce the toxicity of the TGIC crosslinker, they are often called TGIC-Free. They were developed and are used in Europe more than here due to the regulations banning TGIC for health reasons.

The last group of powder coatings resins are called hybrid because they are a blend of different systems (polyester and epoxy or polyester and acrylic).

So lets look at the systems and health effects of the most used tones - Polyester/TGIC and Epoxy. I will link in safety data sheets so you can read them. Look at section 2 hazardous ingredients. Section 4 refers to first aid when you come into contact with the unreacted powder. Section 5 fire fighting refers to complete combustion of the material in a fire. The big issue is the temperature range from where thermal decomposition starts to the point where complete combustion takes place, between these 2 temperatures the thermoset polymer breaks back into the components, and at that temperature the components volatilize into gases we breathe.

Polyester TGIC
SDS for polyester TGIC system

Epoxy
SDS for Epoxy Powdercoat

In my next post I will get into published scientific articles on thermal decomposition byproducts of powder coatings.

I posted up in another thread about how powdercoating bullets can lead to toxic decomposition products. Another member called me out saying I was full of it... I do not want to publish my name but if a mod wants I will give it to him and a quick google search will prove my credentials.

So lets start a scientific study to see if I am. If at the end the hide determines I am truly full of it, I will apologize. However I expect the person who called me out to be an honorable person and do the same.

Here was my post:
I would avoid powdercoating bullets, under combustion the coating degrades into very toxic carcinogenic chemicals. Read the sds for the coating and look up combustion products. Using and baking the powdercoat also contains toxic materials.
I am a chemist and have been inventing paint for 35 years have many patents and dozens of published technical papers, so do know coatings.

Their reply:
Nope. That theory has been postulated and disproven a number of times already, going back long before you ever heard of powder coating. You're missing two important facts:
- The coating is a thermoset polymer, and behaves differently once cured than the powder does prior to curing.
- The coating does not combust at any point during the firing process. This is plainly evident by looking at recovered bullets. There are no "combustion products" of the coating from firing powder coated bullets.

I don't care what your degree is in, there's always room to learn about a subject from people who've been doing it for years, before you come in and try to "teach" them about it.

SO here is my proof.
He is correct that powdercoat systems are thermoset, 2 or more reactive coatings raw materials react forming the thermoset. However, being a thermoset does not make it indestructible.

There are several different chemistries used in powdercoat and not all are equal... You have the resin and the crosslinker.
Most powdercoat use polyester resins.
The crosslinkers for polyester resins are TGIC (triglycidyl isocyanurate) or Isocyanate. TGIC is most common in the US.

Epoxy based powdercoat is the next most common and account for about half the volume of polyester powdercoat systems. They have great adhesion to metals, provide good corrosion resistance and have very poor UV resistance.

On rare occasions acrylic resins may be used instead of polyester resins with the same crosslinkers. They are small volume and used where better chemical resistance is needed (such as the top of washing machines because they resist soap residue better). They are more expensive than polyester resins.

Fluorocarbon based powder coatings are specialized for extreme UV resistance, and very expensive. I doubt these will be used on bullets since they are rare.

Primid systems use HAA (β-hydroxyl-alkyl amide) as a crosslinker with polyesters to reduce the toxicity of the TGIC crosslinker, they are often called TGIC-Free. They were developed and are used in Europe more than here due to the regulations banning TGIC for health reasons.

The last group of powder coatings resins are called hybrid because they are a blend of different systems (polyester and epoxy or polyester and acrylic).

So lets look at the systems and health effects of the most used tones - Polyester/TGIC and Epoxy. I will link in safety data sheets so you can read them. Look at section 2 hazardous ingredients. Section 4 refers to first aid when you come into contact with the unreacted powder. Section 5 fire fighting refers to complete combustion of the material in a fire. The big issue is the temperature range from where thermal decomposition starts to the point where complete combustion takes place, between these 2 temperatures the thermoset polymer breaks back into the components, and at that temperature the components volatilize into gases we breathe.

Polyester TGIC
SDS for polyester TGIC system

Epoxy
SDS for Epoxy Powdercoat

In my next post I will get into published scientific articles on thermal decomposition byproducts of powder coatings.

So, Have either of you established the temperature the coating is exposed to and for how long? Stick with barrels under 8 inches for now please. For thr instant the coating are exposed to this temperature do they break down? Into what? I built a 10mm 1911 w a 6" barrel years back, It also has a bushing type compensater in place most of the time. When shooting coated bullets the compensater and crown of the barrel are coated with a residue that is extemely tough to clean. No solvent I have breaks it down, Hot sonic cleaning slightly softens it. It requires scraping to fracture and break the bond to the parts. For the Barrel crown I usually chuck up the bbl in a lathe and remove the material within .001" and finish with fine steel wool. The compensater gets finished wit dremel and good wire wheel. So, at the moment the bullet leaves barrel and the hot gases escape around the crown the coatings are being" burned off" and adhere to parts close to the blast. Be good to know what gases,chems compounds etc are being loosed for us to breath from that .
Also, I agree that many "professors" lose their ability to think in realistic terms. They are surrounded by what I call "agreer's" [you have diplomas you spell it]that reinforce their opinions. Practical problem solving eludes them and worse most have a very low opinion of the people that do. These are the same geniuses that reinforce the "climate disaster mentality" bur sit silent when their theories are proclaimed facts and used politically to in recent times trigger gov't to halve farm's outputs[Netherlands] because "we must starve a few to save all". When we see these overpaid fatheads moving into small houses,riding bikes to what they call "work" and flying coach w the people they loathe I'll start to take their manufactured religion of climate extinction a bit more seriously.
In the meantime let find out what we're possibly breathing when we shoot coated bullets.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Imagine what this guy's blood lead content was, when he died at the age of 94.
Yeah I see the crutch, the lead didn't do that, he was born with spina bifida.
Its amazing what folks can do when they don't spend time worrying about what might kill them in 80 years.

I'm designing a bullet mould specific for subsonic in my 450B. They will be coated with polyestercyanacritoxin.

 

[Yondering]

Imagine what this guy's blood lead content was, when he died at the age of 94.
Yeah I see the crutch, the lead didn't do that, he was born with spina bifida.
Its amazing what folks can do when they don't spend time worrying about what might kill them in 80 years.
View attachment 8003576

I'm designing a bullet mould specific for subsonic in my 450B. They will be coated with polyestercyanacritoxin.

This has got to be one of the stupidest posts all week. "Here's a picture of some random messed up old guy, to prove lead poisoning isn't real." Say what now?

Besides the complete logic fail of posting that pic, people who deny that lead or other chemicals can harm you are just as stupid as the libs on the other side of the aisle worried about the slightest contact with lead making them sick. Any intelligent thinking person can see that the truth isn't at one extreme end or the other. It's like either believing that the cars on the freeway can't hurt you if you walk across, or being afraid to live within ten miles of a road because they're dangerous. Both sides of that are stupid and wrong. "Not worrying" does not require ignorance of reality.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

This has got to be one of the stupidest posts all week

Here's a picture of some random messed up old guy, to prove lead poisoning isn't real." Say what now?

If I was you. I wouldn't expose myself to lead much more either.

Thats not a "random old dude".

I am pretty sure nothing else is required to make you look like a complete fool, other than your own words. I mean....other than the fact that I was agreeing with your assessment till you went Simple Jack on me.
SMFH

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Ordered this custom mould today:

Having the meplat increased from .250 to .350. Should make it around 400gr+

I've heard that the Eastwood powder is best, but the Hazzard Fraught brand has a lot more industrial waste in it, but works best with wet methods.
I plan to lick each bullet, and sprinkle on the powder coat.

 

[QuickNDirty]

This has got to be one of the stupidest posts all week. "Here's a picture of some random messed up old guy, to prove lead poisoning isn't real." Say what now?

Besides the complete logic fail of posting that pic, people who deny that lead or other chemicals can harm you are just as stupid as the libs on the other side of the aisle worried about the slightest contact with lead making them sick. Any intelligent thinking person can see that the truth isn't at one extreme end or the other. It's like either believing that the cars on the freeway can't hurt you if you walk across, or being afraid to live within ten miles of a road because they're dangerous. Both sides of that are stupid and wrong. "Not worrying" does not require ignorance of reality.

Are you vaxxed or something?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Bill
Hines

By the way....

BILL HINES

I'm betting lots of you didn't recognize him.

Random old dude.....f@×#ing blasphemy.

 

[6.5SH]

Bill
Hines

By the way....

BILL HINES

I'm betting lots of you didn't recognize him.

Random old dude.....f@×#ing blasphemy.

Was still working into his 90's and using lead right up to the end passing his skills onto his grandson Mitch.

 

[JoshPutman]

This thread reminded me I need to cast and powder coat some more 230 grain truncated cone bullets for my 1911.

 

[Yondering]

Bill
Hines

By the way....

BILL HINES

I'm betting lots of you didn't recognize him.

Random old dude.....f@×#ing blasphemy.

You're way out of touch with the world if you're surprised someone didn't recognize him. Personally I've got zero interest in that type of custom car stuff anyway; I like to make stuff go, couldn't much care for all the time spent on looks. Even if I'd heard of him, which I haven't despite being a car guy my whole life, there's still no reason I'd recognize him. You must live in a really small bubble if that surprises you.

Besides - in the context of this thread, he's still some random old dude. All he did with lead was use it for body filler, which has zip to do with what happens when you shoot it out of a barrel. If you think melting lead does the same thing as breathing in a cloud of lead smoke, that's just your plumber's crack showing.

I think you're a case of willful ignorance* instead of having any clue of what's really going on. Not much other reason you think a picture of some random old custom car builder would prove your point. The opposite actually if you paid attention - he was quoted as saying he stuck to lead for body filler because he thought the chemicals in Bondo were poison. So much for "not worrying what'll kill you".
*In small words, that means stupid on purpose.