Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

BigBrother

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 27, 2007
687
5
New England
Hey guys. For a very long time now, I've been formulating plans for changing around the traditional highpower formula. A lot of new disciplines (3 gun, F class) came around from someone wanting to mix it up, and I think this is another natural progression...

I got into highpower solely because it was the most practical, direct way to get good at riflery. I never wanted to be competitive, owing to the gear necessary. I find that coats, slings (used in the full loop configuration), and gloves reduce how practical of a training tool it is from a military or hunting standpoint. It allows you to practice the fundamentals, yes, but it's got a bit too much of the benchrest, locked-down mentality in it for me.

So, I've been thinking about how I'd change around the course to make it more real world and practical. I'm looking to you guys, especially those who've served, for input. Here's what I'm thinking so far...

Changes to gear- shooting coats, heavy gloves, and slings used in a formal (non hasty) fashion not permitted. For gloves, an easy test would be- can the same glove be used on your shooting hand as on your supporting hand?

Positions- standing has always made sense to me, as has prone. I would do away with sitting, perhaps to be replaced with crouching. Or an option for either. Basically, less restrictive. I'd still probably keep the same position/distance relationship- 200 standing, 300 crouched/sitting, 600 prone.

Course of fire- Here's where it gets really interesting. There are a few different options, but I'd actually want to keep the same exact layout for every distance and position. The goal across the course would be accuracy with speed, again, for more of a real-world feel. Here are my ideas...

Countdown, single bull ring, shoot for score.
Here, all competitors would shoot at their own single target, something like 20 shots in 1.5 minutes, with 10 rounds per mag. Not unlike the current rapid phase.

Timed, separate steel targets, shoot for time.
Similar to biathlon and 3 gun. Take as many rounds as you want to put down 10 or 20 poppers laid out horizontally. Fastest aggregate times across the course win. I really like this idea because it emphasizes repositioning and minute of man shooting over "locking yourself down" into position and taking 20 minutes to get the smallest groups. It has the disadvantage of only allowing 1 shooter at a time, but if you do the math, it's probably shorter time overall, and doesn't require target pullers.

Rifle classes- I'd probably do either 2 or 3 classes. Irons and optics; or irons, optics to 4x, and open optics. This would encourage traditional iron sighted rifles, reflex sights, and scopes. Of course, you'd be required to use the same rig across the course, requiring you to do some good gear balancing to get the best overall solution.

The one thing I haven't decided yet is whether prone at 600 should be self-supporting only (with at most a hasty sling or a TIS clip), or bipod and bag permitted. Now that I think about it, any sling configuration should probably be allowed across the course, but you have to begin unslung. So the decision is yours whether or not to take the time to sling up, and how.

Anyway, these are my thoughts so far. To reiterate, the main points here are:
- Less use of restrictive, lock in place type gear
- Emphasis on quicker shooting
- Ability to use existing high power ranges without the need for much retooling
- Overall goal: <span style="font-weight: bold">to better simulate quick fire engagement at distance.</span>

I'd love to get your thoughts!
-BB
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Have not heard of it. Also, not classified, for, as I mentioned, I haven't had enough interest in the formal setup to accrue enough points. If it helps at all, with my AR, hasty sling, no glove, no coat, etc., I shoot between an 80 and 85% generally, across the course.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Awww come on 9H..let's not be so harsh bud.


BB,

If you want to do something differnt why not just do something different vs. modify a HP match.

I would be glad to send you a copy of our COFs we use on the HP range we have.

We shoot from 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 800, 900, and 1K.

Just because you have a static range does not mean you can not be creative.

However just design something were one does not have to use an AR? 20 rounds in 90 seconds? Sounds like 3 gun.

Practical Precision...precision being the key to our discipline. Not spray and pray.

Also a COF should also be designed to test a shooter in all aspects of being a well rounded rifleman.

HTH,

Vu
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Vu, I'd love to get your COF ideas. Can you post into a PM, or is email better?

9H... ahh, not even worth my time.
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Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

There are lots of other avenues for such types of shooting without going and changing HP. No sense even bringing HP into the discussion. If you don't think you can get anything from HP then you are better off shooting something else. HINT: 80-85% tells me you have not mastered the basics nor employ them on demand.

Vu, 20 shots in 90 seconds? Try 35-40 in 50 seconds sling and irons prone at 600 yards with a mag change. That is what the USAMU and Marine NTIT teams can do. Us mere mortal civies that only shoot the NTIT once a year generally stick with a full 30 rounder rather than doing a mag change in the 50 second slot.

The FAL Files site has a FAL Fest at the NRA WC each June. They do some things like above on the Tubb KD range there. Ask around over on that site and see who cleans up during that match.

You finalize accessing a facility, you finalize the COF and props needed for it, you promote it and run it. People will show up. That is what Hoser and Zak and countless other people do. It has nothing to do with Highpower.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

9H, you still haven't told me what NTIT is.

Secondly, this type of response is a lot more helpful, thank you.

But thirdly, before you go slamming my scores, go shoot an across the course match without any of your equipment besides your rifle. Please. Last I checked, 84% puts me at the first ranked level of classification, and this is me without any of the traditional aids. I'm no expert yet, nor do I claim to be, but walk a match in my shoes before you get all high and mighty.

EDIT- I've noticed since I've posted this, you've edited yours to be more helpful, which I appreciate. The only reason I use highpower as a base is because it *is* very close to my ideal course, and the shooting ranges used would be usable. Why re-define the wheel if I'm trying to describe a new COF? It'd be like introducing F Class by going over how the pits are supposed to operate
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Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

BB,

The only thing HP and your idea has in common is the range. Other than that I would just leave HP be.

9H,

I know 20 rounds in 90 seconds is possible and seen HP guys do their rapid fire strings..it is very impressive.

I talking more about bolt guns which is the majority of what is used in our discipline/sport.

By the way..I need some tips for an any/any match out here. One of the old timers called me out to shoot slung up at 1K with my tac rig and scope. =(

BB...please feel free to visit www.ncpprc.com and join our forum if you wish. We have all of our COFs posted under the Monthly Long Range Match forum.

Vu
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Vu, thanks for the heads up. Will check it out.

Now, nomenclature aside, anyone out there have any suggestions or other ideas for this type of match?
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Vu, just had a look at the 4 COF rotation. That really is awesome- wish we had something like that out here! Maybe we can get it going, but it's nice to see someone doing that exact kind of shooting on a static range. I may ping you at some point for pointers if we can get a host range of our own.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vu, thanks for the heads up. Will check it out.

Now, nomenclature aside, anyone out there have any suggestions or other ideas for this type of match? </div></div>

BB, work backwards from a logistical perspective on how you run the match into a course of fire. A course of fire idea is of little use if it cannot be run logistically in such a fashion that it can be shot and scored in a reasonable amount of time and all relays and competitors have a quasi-equal shot at shooting the same score.

Also keep in mind that most KD ranges have a requirement that all spent projectiles end up in a common impact area. That will most likely have to be worked into your match course of file. Additionally, most KD ranges I know of require you to run one common firing line. If the range available to you has enough firing points you might be able to run two stages from the same firing line with separate commence fire and cease fire commands.

I have a hard time taking advice on changing the rules for a sport where the person offering the advice has not bothered reading the rules that already exist for the sport. Case in point - "enough points for a classification"? There are no points for a classification. As a new shooter you maintain a temporary classification in a scorebook just for such so you get to shoot in a class your second match based on the results of the first, then third match based on the first two, until you accumulate 240 record shots which will give you your initial classification.

Copy and paste your post over on usrifleteams.com and see what they have to say over there for contrast.

Here is more info on the NTIT( straight from the CMP rulebook BTW):

http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2003_campperry/rattle_battle_rules.htm

and a video showing it shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1gAynTpNzA

HP is not the be-all end-all sport. It, like most everything, is what it is. Here's a little rifle stage creativity from some locals here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR-_NWKCaxo&feature=related

And this guy tried HP and did not think a whole lot of it - but he did not try to change the game. He went on to be a big part of an "outlaw" 4 gun organization and sponsor matches. Does this look like fun or what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VplHmXOwIPs&feature=related

 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Almost like a Tactical/Practical, BB and I discussed this yesterday. It seems like most of the matches have become so focused and specialized that they have lost sight of the original purpose.....to engage man size targets at various ranges quickly.
I love to shoot pretty much any type of match within 3 hours drive of home (except at certain clubs in MA run by ignorant assholes), but I think BB is on to something. Here in the Northeast matches like the ASC are rather uncommon. Something like what is proposed here might prove to be a decent option.
9H -I will be classified a Master(HP) by the end of the season, some reduced courses though...
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

VU, nice work, looks great. BB and I shot at a club this weekend, the "regulars" made us feel like something they scrape off their shoe...We laughed about it, but bringing new shooters to the sport(s) is obviously something we should all work on. It looks like NCPPRC works alot w/newer shooters.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Jeep Chimp thats complete BS.

One of our main goals is to get more shooters interested and started.

Ask He_Shoot_Me on here..he came out this weekend with a rifle that was not even zeroed or bore sighted. We got him going and on paper all the way out to 1K. No one bitched or moaned because a new guy needed a few more minutes to get squared away.

We all started some where..I started here and a lot of guys helped me and still help me with shit I have no clue about.

Vu
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Scott from Specialized Dynamics puts on an SPR match here, along with our local Precision Rifle matches......

Forget the coat crowd, as you've found they can be a little aloof. Work with the folks that run the range to see if you can set up your own local practical matches.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

LOL, BB and I are aren't new shooters, just not regulars at that club. It was pretty entertaining, actually. My home club is fantastic with new shooters, and thats one part of what it takes for a club to be "succesful." One thing that irks the shit out of me is when an experienced shooter complains about the pit service provided by a new shooter at less formal League type matches. Some of these guys can't understand why HP is dying!
I wanna shoot my best score possible, like everyone else. But more than that, I want to see the sport grow. If I've gotta wait 10 or 20 extra seconds for my target to re-appear while a guy(or gal) learns the ropes in the pit, so be it. I'll live. The sport may not.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Why try to "pervert" NRAHP when you can define you own goals for a match? The way to approach this is for you to procure the venue, staff, funding, equipment, and make the match happen. See if it actually works logistically, is fair, if it draws shooters, and if it actually meets the goals you originally set out.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Yeah , I think he was expressing frustration with guys like the match director that wanted to "keep my change," from the match fee. He was empathizing....LOL. It was pretty funny though.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why try to "pervert" NRAHP when you can define you own goals for a match? The way to approach this is for you to procure the venue, staff, funding, equipment, and make the match happen. See if it actually works logistically, is fair, if it draws shooters, and if it actually meets the goals you originally set out.
</div></div>

Yes, I agree. Okay, to clarify once and for all, the only reason I used high power was because it's currently the only long range, centerfire, non scoped, multi distance, multi position sport out there. In other words, it's already very close to what I'm looking for, and using it to describe things already covers 90% of what I'm trying to achieve. Consider it an "action class" below service rifle class. Service rifle essentially says no, you can't use ultra customized match guns, you have to use (essentially) what the military uses. It's closer to real world equipment, and the scores are lower as a result. It's that same delta again I'm trying to apply to this "action class".

Ferchrissakes, people
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Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Why try to "pervert" NRAHP when you can define you own goals for a match?
Because he's a perverse sort of guy....
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Nope -- combat.

This is National Trophy Infantry Team:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGVyJuxGBfc&feature=PlayList&p=9732E4544D85151D&index=1

50 seconds each at 600, 500, 300 yards. 6 shooters, 8 targets, 384 rounds split between shooters (based on the traditional 48 8-shot Garand clips in a can). Higher point values for the farther hits, with bonus points for at least 6 shots per silhouette (or something like that -- the math is like Chinese arithmetic underwater in the dark).
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

You know sinister, joking though you were, that is *exactly* the type of course I'd be talking about. Quicker movement, no slinging up (you don't have the time), kneeling instead of sitting.. it's all right there in those photos.

Yeah yeah, I get it, so I should enlist. If that's the case, so then should everyone else who buys anything milspec because they appreciate it or out of interest for what the military does
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But in all seriousness, this is virtually identical to what I had in mind. Thank you. It's a good base to start off of, and frankly, I'm surprised something more akin to this hasn't already caught on.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's currently the only long range, centerfire, non scoped, multi distance, multi position sport out there. </div></div>
All the major 3-Gun organization have Limited class which meets those criteria.

The more you standardize the course of fire (ie, a set course of fire), the more specialized the equipment the competitors will gravitate to, to optimize for those courses of fire.

In my opinion, this is exactly the wrong thing to do. NineHotel makes a good argument for the purity of NRAHP disciplines as a crucible for pure marksmanship. However, a you seem to be talking about a broader set of more practical skills. The way to do that is not to set yet another slightly more practical course of fire- it's to allow stage innovations that challenge shooters in new ways every stage, every match.

If you feel like <span style="font-style: italic">you're</span> not getting that, you're shooting the wrong matches.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

At the Rocky Mountain 3-Gun World Championships in Raton NM (which I've shot every year other than 2006 since 2003), they usually have rifle targets from almost point blank distance out to about 600. The median rifle target is probably 325. These are typically flash targets (say 10-14").

To be blunt, if you haven't shot a lot of different types of matches, nor are familiar with their rules, nor have administered matches, I think you are ill-prepared to suggest changes.

-z
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeep Chimp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">VU, nice work, looks great. BB and I shot at a club this weekend, the "regulars" made us feel like something they scrape off their shoe...We laughed about it, but bringing new shooters to the sport(s) is obviously something we should all work on. It looks like NCPPRC works alot w/newer shooters. </div></div>

BB,

I am talking about how the regulars did not welcome him and his friend.

Vu
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Zak, I'd never seen a 3 gun with those distances. If so, very cool, but they certainly don't have that option around this part of the country... one of the reasons I'm trying to suggest changed versions of what they do have.

Also, though I know I'm now ripping the hornet's nest wiiiide open, I think the belief that NRAHP is an exercise in pure marksmanship is completely flawed. It's a mix of ancient and somewhat arbitrary rules, semi-military equipment, and a mix of field practical and purely sport restrictions. I think it's been around for so long that people get touchy when you challenge it, and assume you're flaunting the sanctity of its knowledge by suggesting changes (just see above for what I mean
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).

Think about it for a second. It's laden with arbitrary restrictions that have nothing to do with keeping it a "pure" marksmanship pursuit.

- You can't use your sling in standing. Well, why? It's not field expedient? Or it provides too much of an advantage? Okay, so why allow it at other stages?

- Why not allow the use of some sort of stabilizing device on my shooting hand? Too much of an advantage? Or again, not field expedient? It sure could help me focus on my fundamentals if I had one...

- If I can wear a straight jacket to stabilize myself, why can't I use shooting sticks or other supports on my back and sides that touch the ground? That sure would provide extra stability to help me with those fundamentals.

I could go on and on. The point is, it's far, far from a pure marksmanship exercise. It's a set of mottled rules with an enormously long history that started way back when to help refine the art of shooting for hunting and military practice, and has been tweaked and tuned and (in my opinion) overly revered since then.

You take pure marksmanship and add variability- that's the name of all these sports, NRAHP included. Benchrest takes out a large portion of variability. 3 gun introduces much, much more.

You pick between the extremes for what you're trying to achieve and there you have your sport. I'm trying to add a bit more variability because what I'm trying to achieve is precisely what they're showing in sinister's photos. Accuracy at distance with speed.

So please, we can discuss courses of fire, but stop thinking NRAHP is the purest pursuit of riflery fundamentals that's out there. It's a got a lot in there, don't get me wrong, but I could suggest 10 fixes in a heartbeat that correct it if that's its actual goal.

If anything, Olympic style shooting is much closer. Go shoot that if you want to get to the essence of marksmanship. But this bastard child of arbitrary rules (why do I need to start standing?), old military equipment (hmm, 8 + 2?), and untold other numbers of idiosyncratic restrictions and permissions is far, far from the hallowed sport of pure fundamentals that people defend.

Rant over. Hornets, attack....
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Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No coats, no gloves, no bullseyes; rack-grade issued rifles, iron sights, match ammo. 500, 400, 300, 200, 100, 75, 50, and 25 yards.

nvo0p4.jpg

2dtoxfb.jpg

311xtmo.jpg

2urkzd5.jpg

ip83eh.jpg

2napjzp.jpg

http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/09/AllArmy/index.htm
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/index.htm
</div></div>



HOOAH Go ARMY http://www.goarmy.com/#/?marquee=officership&channel=careers Full time job.
http://www.nationalguard.com/# Guard Part time job.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeep Chimp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">VU, nice work, looks great. BB and I shot at a club this weekend, the "regulars" made us feel like something they scrape off their shoe...We laughed about it, but bringing new shooters to the sport(s) is obviously something we should all work on. It looks like NCPPRC works alot w/newer shooters. </div></div>

BB,

I am talking about how the regulars did not welcome him and his friend.

Vu </div></div>

Got it Vu. Yeah, glad to hear it. I'd shot there before and seen the friendlies at their finest, but man, Sunday was just a true exercise in asshattery. Sucked that we had to have our first joint match there like that, but hey, just pushes us to sponsor stuff at other, more welcoming ranges that much more.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

If I mis-remembered what NineHotel once said, I offer my apologies.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[But dare I say "I want to do 3 gun but changed up as follows.." or would that be wrong as well? </div></div>
It's not wrong at all-- run your match the way you see fit.

One of the great things about "outlaw" matches (ie, those not held to a strict format under a national organizing body) is that each one reflects the ideas of the match directors, staff, and local shooting community.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zak Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
One of the great things about "outlaw" matches (ie, those not held to a strict format under a national organizing body) is that each one reflects the ideas of the match directors, staff, and local shooting community.
</div></div>

Amen, that's all I'm suggesting. But I'm sensing it's clearly hot water to piggy back off of the name of one that *is* under a national body, eh?
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As always Zak, I do appreciate the input- I've said it before- I'm a big fan of your writeups and gear guides, which have informed me well in many of my key purchases, and your photos and matches are really enticing as the type of shooting I'd like to be doing.

Again, with the lack of land and local interest, we need to improvise out here to try to get to that flavor of sport.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

The SOF format matches are similar to the All-Army, except you can have your optics, free-float rails, triggers, lasers, lights, vertical fore grips, VTAC slings, etc.

The differences are everyone is in body armor and you have to carry your gas mask in the pouch.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

One of our local female HP shooters just joined the medical corp reserve. Her first attempt with pistol she qualified Expert. She's an Expert at HP with the SR and about to get her Master card. Now with the help of a local Guardsman she's going to be shooting the Combat matches as well. So much for HP shooters not being well rounded.

Aloof? I coach at clinics, ran 10 NRA/CMP matches this year, run a weekly prone league Oct-May, and help new juniors in various rifle disciplines. I ran 6 matches this summer that encouraged and accommodated the brake and suppressor shooters to come as well, even though these were NRA sanctioned mid and long range matches. My responses have nothing to do with an aloof or elitist attitude because I shoot a sling coat and irons. Zak nailed it when he used the term "perversion". You could pick any of a dozen disciplines and poke holes at them for this or that; NRA/CMP Highpower Rifle is not unique in this regard. If you don't like it, don't shoot it. Find something else or come up with your own.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Oh and Jeep Chimp - congrats on the Master card coming soon. Nothing wrong with some reduced courses in the aggregate average to get it. I just set a goal on my next card to do it full course with the SR is all, kinda a local thing in the SR community. My Master card had 1 reduced in it as well if I remember correctly.

I shot HP for several years on and off as an Expert. That seemed to be my natural ability, somewhere in the 720s to 740s without any training and little practice. Once I got serious about the sport the Master card took a year to get. After that I stuck with HP as my main interest, training several days a week, year around. The HM card took another 4 years 4 months to get that next 3% score average. It looks like my LR HM will come soon but Mid-range with its 98.5% average has eluded me by a fraction this year.

I'm glad you enjoy the sport and get something out of it.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Being a match director is not all its cracked up to be.

I work part time at a range and help design some COF's that have been difficult. We shoot a multigun match, a tac rifle match (AR's M1A's FAL's), a 22lr 2 gun match and a sniper challenge. Our range is limited in size, its about 20 acres and gives us about 550 maybe 600 yards depending on where a hide is set up and which pit targets are in. What you have to keep in mind is that no matter where you are shooting all rounds must be accounted for and where they might impact.

Like was said earlier ... the more traditional and repeated COF there is the more people are going to gear that way. Why do HP shooters shoot with the gloves and coats? Because they have found that it will give them an "advantage" over the guy that comes out with just his rifle.

Me personally I try to design a COF so where its not a gear race, it is focused more on the shooter. I like to design a COF that all a shooter really needs to do is show up with their weapon's ammo and a way to carry it with them and then go shoot.

But you have to design a COF that is challenging and fun, thats the whole thing. If you can come out and clear a COF every time would you continue to do it?
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

9H,

I think BB was just trying to borrow a lil part of the HP foundation.

Most of the HP shooters we run into are great folks and it is very helpful to cross train with HP and F-Class shooters. However you know as well as I do there are some HP snobs out there. You know the type..."if it ain't pure HP, its shit" type.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Vu, thank you, that's really all I was trying to do. It seems like some think I wanted to write in to the NRA with my grand scheme to shake their sport up a bit or something
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.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning toward static position, multiple distance, sequential steel (i.e. horizontal), on a timer. It achieves a number of the goals I'm looking for:

1. By not doing run ups to the position like Combat shoots, there's a much better chance the range officers will be willing to try it out. Running with a loaded rifle is a harder sell.

2. By putting it on timing, it puts the decision on the shooter as to how to sling up, how "dug in" to get, etc. Makes it a time v. precision tradeoff.

3. By going with multiple steel targets for hits, as opposed to a single target for score, it's encouraging multiple engagements, shifting your position, etc. Exactly the reasons why the practical tactical target was adopted on here by many over the old "shoot for groups at 100" routine.

4. Big side benefit- if this is knock down steel, you could get 10 shooters through a position in probably 20 minutes. Which means an entire match at three distances could take under 2 hours. Big improvement over the pit routine. Heck, I might even get to see an 11am match for once in my life
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.

5. Another thing just occurred to me. If you introduce a run-up aspect- say, shooter has to begin 50-100y behind the firing line, and either run up to the weapon or run with an unloaded weapon and load once at the line, it give that same equipment vs. time tradeoff for shooting coats as well. You can employ them, but it would make the running and endurance aspect that much harder. Hmm.. more on this as it develops...
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

Vu on the old timer calling you out.............. Sling up and get comfortable work on your NPA and refuse to break a bad shot....... If you can hold inside the 10 ring at 1000 you'll do pretty good.....
Good Luck and good shooting.
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

BB,

One of the common "standards" stages we shoot in 3Gun from time to time, to "keep us honest" is to set 2-4 small/med steel plates at 200 yards. The shooter has a fixed amount of time to shoot one or more strings with one shot per target (ie, fixed time limited vickers scoring):

starting at port arms:
* four targets from standing
* four target from kneeling, squatting, or sitting
* four targets from prone
* four targets from each of standing, then kneeling/s/s, then prone, then a reload, then kneeling/s/s, then back up to standing

Variations of this are called a rifle "bounce." It is different from regular 3-Gun stage scoring because there is a fixed time and you only get one shot. It turns out that the most accurate shooter win, regardless of time (if they don't go over); however, there is still time pressure. For the full bounce, 90 seconds is a good max. For the single position, something like 10 is fair.

The key with anything like this is to use reactive steel that does not require manual resetting (or any maintenance during the match). This reduces stage reset time because nobody has to go downrange.

I agree with the others who have said that the way to "check" the equipment race when it starts to get too specialized is through stage design. People using stuff that's unreliable when dirty? Have them crawl or roll in the dirt. People using too big and powerful of scopes? Have a bunch of close hoser targets on one stage.

However, designing a course of fire that is fixed for all time is a recipe for extreme specialization (and loss of perspective by the shooters, IMO).

There are a bunch of logistical concerns which you will quickly learn when you start to run your own match.

-z
 
Re: Practical highpower. I want your thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The key with anything like this is to use reactive steel that does not require manual resetting (or any maintenance during the match). This reduces stage reset time because nobody has to go downrange.</div></div>

Yeah, I'd been thinking along those lines. I had a few questions about that..

1. Who's judging impacts? Are the reactive ones you're using usually loud or visual enough to make it indisputable when a hit's been made?

2. One of the things I'm wondering about, and related to the point above, is steel that would react clearly to .223 hits. So for example, at a 600y prone stage, something B-27 sized that would either move enough or produce enough of a sound signature to make it clear when a hit's been made.

Thoughts/experience?