PRACTICAL Marksmanship?

[TheOtherAndrew]

Is excelling at competitions with a 6mm/20+lb rifle an example of practical marksmanship (in general)?

Practical can mean many things to different personalities (staying in the short action .308 bolt face arena). Could mean what gives you the best chance of beating your opponent (low recoil/faster bullet = lighter bullet/heavy gun)- 6mmXYZ/competition. Could mean what gives you the best chance of a 1 shot hit and knock down (higher energy at target = quick/heavier bullet) - 7mm08, hunting. Could mean all of those but with better barrel life and maneuverability (retained energy, simple) - .308, military. Could mean a balance of barrel life, speed, retained energy and maneuverable weight with manageable recoil - 6.5mm (my bias for now).

Ive considered a 6mm rifle but am hesitant - I keep thinking its a cheater rifle of sorts. Its already the lowest recoiling of the ones listed above, and almost everybody I see shooting 6mm has 20lb+ attached to it. It is the result IMO of too much focus on 10 shot/hits on 1 target, basically just running the bolt, and not enough emphasis on PRACTICALITY. This is a generalization, but the pattern I see on the whole.

When you start football/basketball at a young age you get a smaller ball to throw/shoot - it makes the game easier and can hide minute flaws (but at that age more just makes the game more fun - like a trainer .22 rifle (ammo cost big factor there)). But you grow up and they switch to 'bigger balls' to challenge the individuals' skill level more and make them excel in all areas of the game.

In that same vein I think the 6mm train will be fleeting because it either covers up flaws in ones 'marksmanship' game or gives unfair advantage to advanced level shooters, creating a chasm between amateurs and pros that seems to favor status quo/unfair (like if one team got to use smaller balls all the time (or deflated ones lol)) - 30yd throws become easier; 30ft shots go in more often.

My view is the better you are at a sport, the more you should challenge yourself (in basketball they use smaller rims to build 3pt accuracy). There is an aspect of 'simply winning' and if you could choose anything - what makes you the hardest to beat? But I think 6mm/20+lb has become too much about making you look better versus actually making your overall marksmanship better.

Do you disagree?

*Does anyone use a lightweight 6mm gun? That sounds semi-interesting but I wonder why not just use a light 6.5CM at that point?

 

[308pirate]

 

[JBoomhauer]

 

[Emerson0311]

OP, you are filled with virtue. A Savage 300WM package rifle is all you need to show your true dominance.

 

[hafejd30]

I dominate with the 7.6 Creedmoor

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I assume 5.56 CMP high-power is frowned upon here as well? From the little Ive done in the CMP arena - I think it requires a lot more skill.

 

[308pirate]

I assume 5.56 CMP high-power is frowned upon here as well? From the little Ive done in the CMP arena - I think it requires a lot more skill.

Now we're talking

 

[308pirate]

In that same vein I think the 6mm train will be fleeting because it either covers up flaws in ones 'marksmanship' game or gives unfair advantage to advanced level shooters, creating a chasm between amateurs and pros that seems to favor status quo/unfair

Words that losers use

• unfair
• pros
• amateurs
• advanced level
• status quo

 

[b6graham]

depends if we're talking 100y or 400y zero

 

[JBoomhauer]

depends if we're talking 100y or 400y zero

One clearly has an unfair advantage over the other. Fucking gamers.

 

[smoothy8500]

I assume 5.56 CMP high-power is frowned upon here as well? From the little Ive done in the CMP arena - I think it requires a lot more skill.

Yes, we're viewed as old fuds with pompous attitudes wearing Hugh Hefner's smoking jacket while RO's worry whether the magazine is too close to your sleeve and creating artificial support....

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

depends if we're talking 100y or 400y zero

Why do you think Id write a post about [heavy 6mm] being an example of 'impractical marksmanship?' Cuz 6mm doesn't work out well in the 400yd 'center' scheme - so GTFO 6mm!
-------------------------------------
A more real question I really do have for any military people out there. What is the current role of a .308 bolt gun in a military setting? Was it included in the MRAD purely as a 'wind training tool' and have zero combat role? Didn't DMR gravitate more to the KAC M110 semi auto realm? So what combat purpose does bolt 308 serve these days?

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Yes, we're viewed as old fuds with pompous attitudes wearing Hugh Hefner's smoking jacket while RO's worry whether the magazine is too close to your sleeve and creating artificial support....

Lol, you should hear what the high-power guys have to say about PRS ppl...

 

[b6graham]

Lol, you should hear what the high-power guys have to say about PRS ppl...

what's more amusing is watching high power/ XTC/f class guys try to shoot props or even write PRS COFs after shitting on the sport

 

[smoothy8500]

write PRS COFs after shitting on the sport

You guys were so mean and laughed when I said "two sighters".....

Definitely still is a steep learning curve for me trying to adapt to PRS....

 

[KnowNothing256]

Practical can mean many things to different personalities (staying in the short action .308 bolt face arena).

Agreed. If you'd like to debate what is and isn't "practical," you'll probably need to define your terms of engagement. I think most would agree that 6GT isn't really an appropriate elk round, with the ever-present caveat that some yahoo will chime in that he headshots elk "all day long" with his PRS rig. But, it seems like most of your critique centers around PRS-style competition, with perhaps some MIL/LE considerations thrown in for flavor. However, even those two are very different applications, despite numerous shared skills.

Ive considered a 6mm rifle but am hesitant - I keep thinking its a cheater rifle of sorts. Its already the lowest recoiling of the ones listed above, and almost everybody I see shooting 6mm has 20lb+ attached to it. It is the result IMO of too much focus on 10 shot/hits on 1 target, basically just running the bolt, and not enough emphasis on PRACTICALITY. This is a generalization, but the pattern I see on the whole.

You may or may not recall this, but at the 2008 Olympics, the best swimmers in the world were almost all wearing a new swimsuit made by Speedo, because it was unquestionably better than anything else available; 23 of 25 swimming records set that year were by swimmers wearing the suit, and that number of broken records was the most since goggles were first allowed in 1976. Now, that suit, and technology like it, was rapidly banned to try to level the playing field from a gear perspective, but when you're competing at the top tier, any advantage that is allowed is not only fair game but basically essential. If winning a particular game is your top priority (which is a significant "if"), why would you allow your opponent to claim an advantage over you that's also available to you? Link for reference: www.inverse.com/innovation/olympic-glory-week-lzr-swimsuits

When you start football/basketball at a young age you get a smaller ball to throw/shoot - it makes the game easier and can hide minute flaws (but at that age more just makes the game more fun - like a trainer .22 rifle (ammo cost big factor there)). But you grow up and they switch to 'bigger balls' to challenge the individuals' skill level more and make them excel in all areas of the game.

Well...you get a smaller ball (and often shorter hoops) because a bunch of 6-year-olds running around shooting a regulation basketball a solid 3-5 feet short of the bottom of the net isn't fun for anyone, the kids, the parents, the coaches, anybody. You make the game approachable for the participants so that they can stratify based on skill, rather than luck, and so that they difficulty isn't so high that there's essentially zero competition and everyone just fails at the basic premise. You grow up and switch to regulation-sized basketballs because that's the standard (because there IS a standard) and as soon as the majority of participants can handle that size, you want to prep them for standardized regulation play. It's not to "make them excel in all areas of the game," that's what training is for. A better analogy between your basketball example and shooting sports is the NRL Hunter "Skills" division, wherein people who are new entrants to the sport are allowed to participate in a simplified, more approachable format as they develop their basic skills. Looser (easier) rules, and they don't compete against the "regulation" players; this is so they can get most of the fun and exposure to the game from the experience, without the difficulty bar being so high that they basically just fail. Same general story with the various "Base" classes, although there's a substantial caveat around the dumpster fire that is PRS Production class.

In that same vein I think the 6mm train will be fleeting because it either covers up flaws in ones 'marksmanship' game or gives unfair advantage to advanced level shooters, creating a chasm between amateurs and pros that seems to favor status quo/unfair (like if one team got to use smaller balls all the time (or deflated ones lol)) - 30yd throws become easier; 30ft shots go in more often.

My view is the better you are at a sport, the more you should challenge yourself (in basketball they use smaller rims to build 3pt accuracy). There is an aspect of 'simply winning' and if you could choose anything - what makes you the hardest to beat? But I think 6mm/20+lb has become too much about making you look better versus actually making your overall marksmanship better.

There's nothing that prohibits "less advanced" shooters from running a 20-lb 6mm rig. It's not unfair, unless you wanna talk about the cost keeping people from gearing up; however, 6mm isn't more costly than your preferred 6.5mm, so even that's not unfair (it's typically cheaper to shoot 6mm actually, if you handload). You're not discussing how it's unfair for guys to run a $5k custom gun with a $5k scope on top, though, you're discussing caliber differences. It doesn't hold water, everyone playing the game is allowed to run any of the most popular 6mm cartridges they want, the only rule that matters here (that applies to everyone, and is thus essentially inherently "fair") is the max bullet speed, which is really just designed to preserve the steel targets.

Heavy 6mm rigs do help cover up flaws in fundamentals, specifically recoil management and to a lesser extent building solid positions, but again, it's not unfair, that advantage is available to anyone who cares and can afford to claim it. As far as "the better you are at a sport, the more you should challenge yourself," again, you're talking about training. If you want to use competitions as training for something, go for it, but others are there to win, not to train; they do their training elsewhere, and it's not a legitimate comparison. And 20-lb 6mms being about looking better, I'm not sure what you mean; there's almost certainly a case to be made for lower-level shooters just hopping on the popular gear bandwagon, but I suspect you're talking about "covering up" flaws in fundamentals, and that perspective doesn't really align with an "I'm here to win" goal of a given competitor. Of COURSE you want every advantage you can fairly get if your goal is to win, and it's silly to suggest otherwise. As for "overall marksmanship," do you mean hitting what you aim at as much as possible? If that's the case, then the market agrees: heavy 6mm rigs IMPROVE marksmanship, as reflected on the scoreboard.

Do you disagree?

*Does anyone use a lightweight 6mm gun? That sounds semi-interesting but I wonder why not just use a light 6.5CM at that point?

Yes, I clearly disagree, as I've laid out above. Now, it does hinge on one's goals: if you want to win the PRS game, you're gonna run a heavy 6mm (or .224) rig. If you want to play the NRL Hunter game, you can't do that and make power factor, so you'll adjust to the rules of the game. If you want to use competition to train with your hunting rig, by all means, but that's training, and you're not really there to compete at the highest "possible" level.

I run a "lightweight" 6.5mm gun sometimes, which also has a 22BR barrel. 22BR is for the game, 6.5CM is for hunting, NRLH, and recoil management training. Why not just use a light 6.5CM instead of 6mm, you ask? Recoil impacting sight picture, obviously. Less recoil equals easier spotting of your own shots, which leads to more effective second-round follow-up. Dude, the answer to that question should be fairly obvious.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Agreed. If you'd like to debate what is and isn't "practical," you'll probably need to define your terms of engagement. I think most would agree that 6GT isn't really an appropriate elk round, with the ever-present caveat that some yahoo will chime in that he headshots elk "all day long" with his PRS rig. But, it seems like most of your critique centers around PRS-style competition, with perhaps some MIL/LE considerations thrown in for flavor. However, even those two are very different applications, despite numerous shared skills.


You may or may not recall this, but at the 2008 Olympics, the best swimmers in the world were almost all wearing a new swimsuit made by Speedo, because it was unquestionably better than anything else available; 23 of 25 swimming records set that year were by swimmers wearing the suit, and that number of broken records was the most since goggles were first allowed in 1976. Now, that suit, and technology like it, was rapidly banned to try to level the playing field from a gear perspective, but when you're competing at the top tier, any advantage that is allowed is not only fair game but basically essential. If winning a particular game is your top priority (which is a significant "if"), why would you allow your opponent to claim an advantage over you that's also available to you? Link for reference: www.inverse.com/innovation/olympic-glory-week-lzr-swimsuits

Your own statement pretty much explains why - because your not proving who is the best swimmer/shooter youre proving who has access to the best gear, who has the money to buy a trophy, who knows the top directors and are then allowed to "reshoot" a stage (it just happened right next to me last weekend - I just shook my head. another place allowed the guy who set up all the targets and obstacles to shoot for points in the match with everyone else, like if you want to win like that man go for it). If you've won 1, 2 national competitions using a 24lb 6mm Im fine with that. But switch it up once you proved you CAN do it that way. The mindset comes down to street ball (play through light/medium fouls) vs "foul, foul foul" relying on referees to bail you out of predicaments. If you cant lose with grace you have no business winning in my book.

And in my head at end of day is what is the practical application here? PRS is becoming a niche of a niche. Ill still shoot it and I enjoy my squad most of the time. If in high-power I get yelled at for using the mag or kinda close to appearing to maybe blah blah Id say "dont care" Im still shooting offhand or with sling, Im still challenging myself - take away my points if youre that phased over it but I know my real score.

Its a mentality of "anytime, anywhere, give us the same opportunity and Imma beat you" (note its a mentality not a reality for me at this point lol!). Maybe you dont actually win. There are a bunch of good shooters who dont win national PRS matches. I just personally favor that crowd because they seem in general to be more grounded people.

Well...you get a smaller ball (and often shorter hoops) because a bunch of 6-year-olds running around shooting a regulation basketball a solid 3-5 feet short of the bottom of the net isn't fun for anyone, the kids, the parents, the coaches, anybody. You make the game approachable for the participants so that they can stratify based on skill, rather than luck, and so that they difficulty isn't so high that there's essentially zero competition and everyone just fails at the basic premise. You grow up and switch to regulation-sized basketballs because that's the standard (because there IS a standard) and as soon as the majority of participants can handle that size, you want to prep them for standardized regulation play. It's not to "make them excel in all areas of the game," that's what training is for. A better analogy between your basketball example and shooting sports is the NRL Hunter "Skills" division, wherein people who are new entrants to the sport are allowed to participate in a simplified, more approachable format as they develop their basic skills. Looser (easier) rules, and they don't compete against the "regulation" players; this is so they can get most of the fun and exposure to the game from the experience, without the difficulty bar being so high that they basically just fail. Same general story with the various "Base" classes, although there's a substantial caveat around the dumpster fire that is PRS Production class.

I disagree with a lot of this part. You took the extreme side with "6 year olds" 9-13 is a different story. What about deflate-gate? Its a competitive advantage...but is it the right way to win?

There's nothing that prohibits "less advanced" shooters from running a 20-lb 6mm rig. It's not unfair, unless you wanna talk about the cost keeping people from gearing up; however, 6mm isn't more costly than your preferred 6.5mm, so even that's not unfair (it's typically cheaper to shoot 6mm actually, if you handload). You're not discussing how it's unfair for guys to run a $5k custom gun with a $5k scope on top, though, you're discussing caliber differences. It doesn't hold water, everyone playing the game is allowed to run any of the most popular 6mm cartridges they want, the only rule that matters here (that applies to everyone, and is thus essentially inherently "fair") is the max bullet speed, which is really just designed to preserve the steel targets.

Agree mostly. I think its missing the point though.

Heavy 6mm rigs do help cover up flaws in fundamentals, specifically recoil management and to a lesser extent building solid positions, but again, it's not unfair, that advantage is available to anyone who cares and can afford to claim it.

Agree its not specifically unfair - thats on the league on what they want to see (money or improvement, practical improvement) and we may never agree on that so be it.

As far as "the better you are at a sport, the more you should challenge yourself," again, you're talking about training. If you want to use competitions as training for something, go for it, but others are there to win, not to train; they do their training elsewhere, and it's not a legitimate comparison. And 20-lb 6mms being about looking better, I'm not sure what you mean; there's almost certainly a case to be made for lower-level shooters just hopping on the popular gear bandwagon, but I suspect you're talking about "covering up" flaws in fundamentals, and that perspective doesn't really align with an "I'm here to win" goal of a given competitor. Of COURSE you want every advantage you can fairly get if your goal is to win, and it's silly to suggest otherwise.

I think ppl with this mindset are very caught up in themselves. You aren't that big of a deal, you are vying for advertiser money and that can matter, but we aren't talking 20M$ contracts. So in my mind - all shooting is training, period. The only application that actually matters is when you are in the military deployed to protect your country life or death.

As for "overall marksmanship," do you mean hitting what you aim at as much as possible? If that's the case, then the market agrees: heavy 6mm rigs IMPROVE marksmanship, as reflected on the scoreboard.

Is that bullet 6mm bullet capable past 5-600yd of doing anything other than lightly dinging steel - hunting for food life/death - military personnel with armor? No its a glorified NRL22 league. I may end up trying it for a year or two but again its a niche of a niche and Im just not into that long term.

They dont improve marksmanship they build confidence, and past as a trainer round, they prove very little about true marksmanship.

Yes, I clearly disagree, as I've laid out above. Now, it does hinge on one's goals: if you want to win the PRS game, you're gonna run a heavy 6mm (or .224) rig. If you want to play the NRL Hunter game, you can't do that and make power factor, so you'll adjust to the rules of the game. If you want to use competition to train with your hunting rig, by all means, but that's training, and you're not really there to compete at the highest "possible" level.

laughing emoji. you are making my point for me - it isn't the highest level possible. Why is NRL hunter not higher - it has actual application? If PRS insists on keeping 6mm heavy then ID recommend making the distances double. Make it actually an art form - nothing under 1000yd.

I run a "lightweight" 6.5mm gun sometimes, which also has a 22BR barrel. 22BR is for the game, 6.5CM is for hunting, NRLH, and recoil management training. Why not just use a light 6.5CM instead of 6mm, you ask? Recoil impacting sight picture, obviously. Less recoil equals easier spotting of your own shots, which leads to more effective second-round follow-up. Dude, the answer to that question should be fairly obvious.

Dude - it totally is. But good on you for branching out into several disciplines! That is what I like to see - that is my whole problem with 6mm heavy/PRS, the thought that it is the epitome of marksmanship - the epitome to me is being good in multiple disciplines way over being "number 1" in a single discipline of a sport that is much larger than 6mm heavy.

Cross discipline skill building - that is what I consider building true marksmanship - but hey WTF do I know, Im the 400yd zero guy .

*I think something cool would be to take CMP, NRL, PRS, ELR, etc - do a bit of each and then take a composite score of the 4ish areas and then see who ranks at the tippy top. I think that'd be a better representation of marksmanship. Much more dynamic much more interesting and many more ways to win than just adding weight to the same tired 6mm!

 

[Newbie2020]

Not to pick nits, but none of the above cartridge choices are actually cartridges.

But I think everyone gets the point.

But, just saying, there’s a wide array of 6 mm and 7.62 mm caliber cartridges.

Also, regardless of what rifle shooting game you could create, with sufficient time and incentive, Phil Velayo (and others) would strategize, train, and still kick everybody’s ass.

 

[308pirate]

I think ppl with this mindset are very caught up in themselves. You aren't that big of a deal, you are vying for advertiser money and that can matter, but we aren't talking 20M$ contracts. So in my mind - all shooting is training, period.

Why do you think you can decide what other peoples' motivations for shooting anything?

The only application that actually matters is when you are in the military deployed to protect your country life or death

Says who?

I think you're just a loser who keeps getting whipped regardless of the rules so you'll never be happy and you'll keep moving the goalposts.

Tell you what, the only application that actually matters to 99% of us is the application of a handgun to defeat violent criminal actors. How good are you with one?

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Why do you think you can decide what other peoples' motivations for shooting anything?


Tell you what, the only application that actually matters to 99% of us is the application of a handgun to defeat violent criminal actors. How good are you with one?

What are you trying to say?

Everything I write is by default my opinion. I didn't decide the truth of any of this. ("I think," "In my mind"). Chill out.

 

[ArTeeKay]

What you've just written are some of the most insanely idiotic things I have seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent diatribe were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Prove your point via beating everyone with superior marksmanship skills. Train with what you consider to develop your skills properly, then swap to a 22lb 6mm and beat the brakes off people. If your opinion/theory is correct, you should be able to do that.

Also, if you don’t feel like a 6mm has any value for hunting or other such things…….would you be willing to let someone shoot at you at 600yds? I mean, since it has no value or use at that distance other than hitting steel…..you should be fine.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

It’s also nonsensical to claim you don’t get anything from heavy 6mm.

I promise if you take someone who’s been shooting matches with a “gamer” rifle and someone who’s been shooting their hunting rifle off a bench or sticks for the same amount of time, and put them both into live situations where you need to shoot off things like trees, rocks, fence posts, etc etc………the guy who’s been shooting the gamer rifle in prs will run circles around the other guy when it comes to making stable positions.

Also, the mental aspect can’t be understated. Shoot a meatball match where every single shot counts. If you take your mind off a shot just once and miss when you shouldn’t, you’re now shooting for 2nd place. That’s a crazy amount of self induced stress/pressure and is not an easy thing to deal with.

I shoot quite a bit of larger rifles and non “gamer” things. And Saturday I still had a terrible day shooting 77% of a fairly easy cof with a 22lb 6mm. If there wasn’t a fairly high amount of physical and mental skill required, no one would be having terrible days. And we all have those days.

When 50-80% of the shooters at matches start hitting 80-90% or more of the targets, maybe there’s a conversation to be had. But that ain’t happening.

 

[ArTeeKay]

On reflection, after a nights sleep, I'll say this. Practical, tactical, field, and competition shooting all demand the balance of "as little as possible, as much as necessary". That's it.

I typed out a whole bunch more, but in the end, the people who understand don't need anymore explanation, and if you don't understand, no amount of explanation will get you there.

Put down the keyboard and go shoot. Come back when you can tell us how the above concept drives the evolution of the "gamer gun".

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Every comment has a bit of knowledge in it that is unique - it may not even be the words themselves but the order presented. At the same time you can find something to exploit with every comment.

If you want to soak up knowledge you have to keep reading the dumbest comments you've ever seen over and over, sometimes wait a couple hours then re read it to notice where that nugget of useful info is in the comment. Thats building. Another tactic is to quickly sight the exploitable part of a comment; pounce and derail the knowledge building process.

I guarantee no part of what I said was not known in part or already thought of by somebody else, - but not in its entirety - each person does not know every single part, or they may be aware of all the parts but never arranged them in that particular way.

So its a question of do you want to build or do you want to derail. You can build with every comment because at the end of the day it is something rather than silence/nothing. Comes down to choices.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

On reflection, after a nights sleep, I'll say this. Practical, tactical, field, and competition shooting all demand the balance of "as little as possible, as much as necessary". That's it.

I typed out a whole bunch more, but in the end, the people who understand don't need anymore explanation, and if you don't understand, no amount of explanation will get you there.

Put down the keyboard and go shoot. Come back when you can tell us how the above concept drives the evolution of the "gamer gun".

Im open to listening learning from your perspective. But you have to say it for me to even have a chance.

I do shoot, I like to shoot, I also like to compete. Im not a top 10 anything in the gun world.

Is your question how did the concept of balance create the 6mm heavy gun?
Id say its a balance of how the COFs were written, gear that minimizes the issues other systems had with running those COFs, prioritizing winning, a ton of training, tweaking and then after a couple wins and reinforcement that you succeeded with the heavy 6mm(and the part Im really addressing) - complacency, repeating what that individual proved already works for the given COF versus, now that we know its the best way to tackle that COF, asking "is there another way to tackle [it] that maybe isn't as easy, but I want to make work?"

It undoubtedly took effort to get there ( first couple wins); but now that you've optimized the gear that minimizes [issues] why not start training out the [issues] with other platforms one by one until you become just as proficient (same score range) with a more difficult system.

Now not only did you win, you won with a handicap.

Its kind of like when Velayo tried using a production Tikka in comps, but didn't do as good - but overall continued to hone his skills.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I promise if you take someone who’s been shooting matches with a “gamer” rifle and someone who’s been shooting their hunting rifle off a bench or sticks for the same amount of time, and put them both into live situations where you need to shoot off things like trees, rocks, fence posts, etc etc………the guy who’s been shooting the gamer rifle in prs will run circles around the other guy when it comes to making stable positions.

Exactly, instead of continuously training diminishing return of something like group size when youre already at 1/2MOA from bench - maybe try a different discipline entirely and go from 0% competency to 60% rather quickly in that other discipline (PRS here), then go back to shooting those groups off a bench - oscillate. Train just as often, just change how youre training/what your training for.

 

[ArTeeKay]

To clarify, all of what follows has already been said, so I am just restating in different words, and if you distill it down to it's essence, it is the same as why you were heckled so badly when arguing for something other than a 100 yd zero.

Just about any top level shooter in most of the shooting sports could take my rifle (or shotgun, or pistol for that matter) and I could take theirs, and they'd still win 8 days a week. But if that person was competing against themselves, with an optimal gun vs a suboptimal gun, the version shooting the more optimized gun would similarly win a totally disproportionate amount. The techniques for winning are already there. There are likely few, if any, advances to be made in that direction now. So now we optimize equipment instead of technical skill, as that's where we will make our best progress.

If what you really want is to drive people to build new and different skills and techniques, start a new sport, with rules that force that sort of development. Don't demand that Wilt Chamberlain plays ball with one hand tied behind his back. Invent a version of basketball where you aren't allowed to use your hands.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Exactly, instead of continuously training diminishing return of something like group size when youre already at 1/2MOA from bench - maybe try a different discipline entirely and go from 0% competency to 60% rather quickly in that other discipline (PRS here), then go back to shooting those groups off a bench - oscillate. Train just as often, just change how youre training/what your training for.

Not everyone is looking to do whatever it is you’re trying to get at in this thread.

Mind your business and don’t worry with what others are doing.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Feniks - ditto.
You somehow make threads of little importance have even less importance - great skill.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Feniks - ditto.
You somehow make threads of little importance have even less importance - great skill.

You’re right. Everyone shits in your threads because they are the problem, not you.

 

[Garvey]

Exactly, instead of continuously training diminishing return of something like group size when youre already at 1/2MOA from bench - maybe try a different discipline entirely and go from 0% competency to 60% rather quickly in that other discipline (PRS here), then go back to shooting those groups off a bench - oscillate. Train just as often, just change how youre training/what your training for.

There have been occasions where there were .308 Win only or .223 Rem only matches. Evidently that is what you are looking for.

Speed limits are for steel preservation. We have seen every aspect of precision shooting improve, in a relatively short time. A 2010 match shot in 2022 would look significantly different. Distances and target sizes would be more difficult now. Posistions would be more difficult now. Par times would be less now. The reason is because shooters improved equipment and improved their skillset. Some would always defer to "gaming" adapting is more appropriate.

The 6.5 Creedmoor was so successful, really not that long ago in the grand scheme of things, it has been wildcatted into 6mm, .22, .257 and then those wildcats have become somewhat standardized. The 6mm is gaining traction, no doubt. I have not made the switch yet, since my 6.5mm barrel still has life. .473" bolt face with small rifle primer has become more popular, and for good reason. Temp stability in powders, brass quality, increase in BC, consistency in one bullet to the next in the same lot. Stock and chassis options are also limitless, with more manufacturers producing. The optics have also improved. We used to have a Mil reticle, then we got a Mil reticle with .5 hashes added, now the sky is the limit to the types of reticle one can choose from. The glass is better as well. Unfortunately, sometimes everyone has to up their equipment to keep up with the game. It's just the way it is in an almost unregulated equipment game.

At the end of the day, I cannot blame my misses on my equipment. They were my fault as a hand loader and/or a shooter. Can you make perfect ammo shot to shot, tuned to the rifle? Can you read wind and properly correct for it? Get you get the rifle still, cleanly break your shots one after another? And can you consistently spot your shots? Can you remove the brain farts of not dialing or holding proper elevation, skipping a target, or getting out of order? Those are some part your set up, and more to do with you good habits or bad habits that need to be reduced. Also known as skillset.

If you want to shoot in a match where there are more equipment regulations, more power to you. PRS ain't it.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Sure does seem like a fishy time to make a comment like that.... You sure you didn't just come off the CO PRS thread?!

But I will say decent job at giving [that] side of the story - however it is not what I am really worried about.

Ill shoot your matches and get my hits and pay the fee and do what I please...Im trying to challenge other shooters who hit a plateau in skill development and just get stuck on "repeat." Try a different style out. Essentially I favor "good at a lot of things verging on great in some" over "excellent at this one aspect and its all I do but I do it well." I would in theory want to be able to be put in any situation with very minimal prep beforehand and be able to outshoot the opponent - and a diversity of style is what I believe will be more effective at that goal (think assassins Way, but a rung down). If you just want name recognition by being in top 10 of PRS 5 years running and thats where you are - great, not that impressive to me though - 24+lb rifles are gaming the system not adapting, its a step too far takes too much away from practicality IMO.

Also, the real motive behind this thread was that 6mm carts in general because of the higher BC and higher speed combo - messes up my 400yd center strategy.

No worries tho to all the shit eating haters that preceded you though - I dumped a boat load into equipment AND at same time got a 6creed....but I didn't get any weights and its a CF barrel...Im not saying I won't eventually get some weights to balance the rifle but Im firmly against heavily loading the thing down to a point where I cant walk the rig ~2miles in a 5-6hr day of shooting on a more open style COF. But I have to try 6mm out in some capacity to see what all the fuss is about.

And I will have results from the 400yd center thing hopefully by end of season so we can all have another [fun] discussion about how practical that idea really is

 

[Garvey]

"A comment like that". I do not know what that means.

Blah, blah, blah

Are you zeroing at 400 yards? If so, that is really a dumb idea, for many reasons. And I am sure you have been told those reasons.

 

[b6graham]

My oh my

 

[Tx_Aggie]

In my mind, "Practical Marksmanship" can and should include all of the following:

• Finding targets
• Ranging targets and determining dope to target
• Reading and calling wind
• Consistent application of the fundamentals while
  • Shooting unsupported (standing, kneeling, seated, prone)
  • Shooting supported off of props and natural terrain
  • Shooting supported prone w bipod and rear bag
  • Shooting off of a tripod
• Engaging multiple targets at varying ranges
• Managing recoil (via fundamentals) to spot impacts
• Making accurate corrections based on spotting impacts
• Doing all of the above under some degree of stress

Different competitions test some or all of these things to varying degrees. I don't see how any of this is dependent on a specific bore diameter, and so I didn't answer the poll. A rimfire or 223 Remington isn't ideal for testing recoil management, but even those cartridges are fine for learning and testing the rest.

Picking an appropriate caliber for what you intend to do with the rifle is something else, IMO.

 

[sarcasmn]

When I was still on the job and a firearms instructor for the department, I shot 3 gun to sharpen my skills. Later I gravitated to cowboy action shooting for fun. Did that directly relate to the weapons I was using at work? No, but I am sure it still had some benefit.

PRS is a game and I enjoy it. I also shoot NRL22 and PRS Rimfire. Do these relate directly to “real world” tactics? It does get me behind a rifle in different environments and different weather. I am concentrating on my fundamentals, working out my dope, figuring my wind holds etc etc. So I do think it has some value to operators.

Most police sniper engagements are less than 100 yards. Easy right. You might have a three inch target at 75 yards. But if you miss or make the wrong call you could spend your life in prison and no matter what happens any shot is going to be judged by civilians that have never fired a rifle. How do you recreate that in practice? Anything you can do to get time on a trigger and build your confidence helps.

I have a Vudoo for Rimfire competition and a custom 6.5CM for other competition. Heck I used to shoot 45-70 black powder cartridges at silhouettes with an 1874 buffalo rifle, I am sure doing that taught me a thing or two that I used as an officer.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

"A comment like that". I do not know what that means.

Blah, blah, blah

Are you zeroing at 400 yards? If so, that is really a dumb idea, for many reasons. And I am sure you have been told those reasons.

Clearly

Thanks for stopping by!

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Different competitions test some or all of these things to varying degrees. I don't see how any of this is dependent on a specific bore diameter, and so I didn't answer the poll. A rimfire or 223 Remington isn't ideal for testing recoil management, but even those cartridges are fine for learning and testing the rest.

Picking an appropriate caliber for what you intend to do with the rifle is something else, IMO.

I agree. And technically picking the amount of weight is always going to be inversely related to how much total movement is required for that application as well. So truly its not the competitors at fault its the match COFs. Idk maybe more a combo of both...

The matches (PRS) thatr run on a square range I mean what do you expect them to do right? So I cant fault COFs with that limitation. But the over arching [series] or league could put a 'solicitation' out for less square ranges more fields or tracking - essentially more area and that'll usually only be available a distance away from population centers so inherently less economic draw. But better COFs, more exciting finishes, less redundant - and perhaps that grows overall interest (through social media) at a greater pace...never know if [ya] dont try!

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I agree. And technically picking the amount of weight is always going to be inversely related to how much total movement is required for that application as well. So truly its not the competitors at fault its the match COFs. Idk maybe more a combo of both...

The matches (PRS) thatr run on a square range I mean what do you expect them to do right? So I cant fault COFs with that limitation. But the over arching [series] or league could put a 'solicitation' out for less square ranges more fields or tracking - essentially more area and that'll usually only be available a distance away from population centers so inherently less economic draw. But better COFs, more exciting finishes, less redundant - and perhaps that grows overall interest (through social media) at a greater pace...never know if [ya] dont try!

You say you’ve spent a lot of time shooting service rifle, so the idea of adding weight to a rifle shouldn’t be anything new to you. Plenty of Highpower rifles are packed full of lead to make them easier to shoot.

And modern duty oriented sniper rifles are often pushing 18-19lbs with a scope and suppressor.

But if you want to penalize weight, it can be done with the COF on a square range. Things like requiring some degree of unsupported shooting, or requiring some movement with the rifle at the start of or during a stage. And there are a few east coast PRS match directors doing these sorts of things. A little creativity goes a long way, even on a “square range.”

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I agree. And technically picking the amount of weight is always going to be inversely related to how much total movement is required for that application as well. So truly its not the competitors at fault its the match COFs. Idk maybe more a combo of both...

The matches (PRS) thatr run on a square range I mean what do you expect them to do right? So I cant fault COFs with that limitation. But the over arching [series] or league could put a 'solicitation' out for less square ranges more fields or tracking - essentially more area and that'll usually only be available a distance away from population centers so inherently less economic draw. But better COFs, more exciting finishes, less redundant - and perhaps that grows overall interest (through social media) at a greater pace...never know if [ya] dont try!

It’s been done. The reason most matches have gravitated to “barricade benchrest” isn’t because all MD’s and such made it that way.

It’s because the attendance is much, much higher.

For example, I attempted to run one (just one) “practical skills” stage at monthly Rimfire matches. Maybe no bag or sitting supported.

My attendance dropped noticeably and immediately.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Just got done watching F1 Miami - I think Nascar v F1 is a great analogy here for what we are arguing about. Not sure which relates to which tho, just made sense to me.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

It’s been done. The reason most matches have gravitated to “barricade benchrest” isn’t because all MD’s and such made it that way.

It’s because the attendance is much, much higher.

For example, I attempted to run one (just one) “practical skills” stage at monthly Rimfire matches. Maybe no bag or sitting supported.

My attendance dropped noticeably and immediately.

Quality v quantity

So youre saying you changed back the next outing? If so I think that illustrates a point.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Just got done watching F1 Miami - I think Nascar v F1 is a great analogy here for what we are arguing about. Not sure which relates to which tho, just made sense to me.

So sit on the sidelines and draw conclusions about things you know little about?

Seems reasonable.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

So sit on the sidelines and draw conclusions about things you know little about?

Seems reasonable.

omg you hurt my feelings! thanks for your opinion of my opinion

you have demonstrated your vast superiority....complex.

 

[StrayDog]

omg you hurt my feelings! thanks for your opinion of my opinion

you have demonstrated your vast superiority....complex.

If you knew @JBoomhauer you would already be eating your words, just sayin... he's pretty humble and a great shot!

Maybe give give the internet a rest Andrew and get outside work on some dot drills or something?!

 

[JBoomhauer]

Why no mention of rally or autocross? They seem more practical.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Quality v quantity

So youre saying you changed back the next outing? If so I think that illustrates a point.

And your point is what?

I think @Feniks Technologies is saying that most people running matches are doing it as a business, and so attendance matters. Making choices that an MD knows will drastically reduce attendance (and thus revenue) doesn't seem like a smart way to operate a match venue.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

Because I forgot its the internet - you aren't going to say hey I see what youre saying, instead you'll say "why didn't you say it this way?