PRACTICAL Marksmanship?

[Feniks Technologies]

Quality v quantity

So youre saying you changed back the next outing? If so I think that illustrates a point.

Feel free to host matches with low attendance.

I have too many other things going on to make it worthwhile. I also didn’t say when I changed back. It wasn’t the next match. Not sure why you would make that assumption.

Point being, your idea isn’t new. It’s how this all started 20 years ago or more. And it evolved into what it is now. That’s why Sniper’s Hide cup and Mammoth are once a year and there aren’t matches like that every month. You’ll get high attendance for a few matches, but not consistently. For example, the march Vortex Team Sniper Challenge had around 30 shooters.


But again, there’s plenty of land and ranges out there. Start running matches. There’s nothing stopping you.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

FFS - I didn't make an assumption, I asked a question; in order to clarify, before making a conclusion.

What was my idea here again?

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I dont even understand what your motive for answering me at this point is - we've gone entirely in a circle. I said matches need more diversity of thought essentially, you bitched then eventually said you've done just that. If you agreed from the start and already tried it then why were you bashing on the thought from the get go?

All I can gather is you simply want to argue with whatever I say no matter how I say it or how it is put.

 

[rlsmith1]

No 300 NM or 338 option so I can’t vote

 

[SanPatHogger]

It’s also nonsensical to claim you don’t get anything from heavy 6mm.

I promise if you take someone who’s been shooting matches with a “gamer” rifle and someone who’s been shooting their hunting rifle off a bench or sticks for the same amount of time, and put them both into live situations where you need to shoot off things like trees, rocks, fence posts, etc etc………the guy who’s been shooting the gamer rifle in prs will run circles around the other guy when it comes to making stable positions.

Also, the mental aspect can’t be understated. Shoot a meatball match where every single shot counts. If you take your mind off a shot just once and miss when you shouldn’t, you’re now shooting for 2nd place. That’s a crazy amount of self induced stress/pressure and is not an easy thing to deal with.

I shoot quite a bit of larger rifles and non “gamer” things. And Saturday I still had a terrible day shooting 77% of a fairly easy cof with a 22lb 6mm. If there wasn’t a fairly high amount of physical and mental skill required, no one would be having terrible days. And we all have those days.

When 50-80% of the shooters at matches start hitting 80-90% or more of the targets, maybe there’s a conversation to be had. But that ain’t happening.

What is a meatball match?

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Answers to practical marksmanship. You have a rifle, shoot it until you plateau, then figure out what you need to improve to increase your score/skill/classification. Marksmanship isn't a gear race. Let's use Service Rifle as an example. Will a XYZ's trigger make you shoot better than PDQ's? Does a Rock River NM rifle beat a White Oak rifle? How much of a difference does a .75 MOA rifle make over a .9 MOA rifle if your hold is 2 MOA. An AR might give an advantage over an M1 but I've seen shooters leg out with both.

At the same time does an AMU shooter beat me because they use a muzzle heavy rifle and I don't? Or is it because they shoot 10 times as much as I do?

As to caliber or cartridge, for Service Rifle 5.56 is easier to shoot than 7.62 and 7.62 shoots easier than .30-06. There is a running debate over .308 Win and 6.5 CM, Last I looked at F Class Open .308 still held the record for high score.

Bottom line, go shoot. Next match aim to beat your last score or your personal best.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I dont even understand what your motive for answering me at this point is - we've gone entirely in a circle. I said matches need more diversity of thought essentially, you bitched then eventually said you've done just that. If you agreed from the start and already tried it then why were you bashing on the thought from the get go?

All I can gather is you simply want to argue with whatever I say no matter how I say it or how it is put.

I can’t even begin to understand how your comprehension lead you to this statement.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

What is a meatball match?

Basically just a term for easy. Typically with large targets. Can also he little movement or anything else.

It’s the type of match where only a few points separates a large amount of shooters (sometimes up to 30 shooters will be extremely close).

The typical complaints are these matches are much more affected by luck (time of day shot, wind, etc) or that making one or two unforced errors pretty much kills your chance at winning.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Basically just a term for easy. Typically with large targets. Can also he little movement or anything else.

It’s the type of match where only a few points separates a large amount of shooters (sometimes up to 30 shooters will be extremely close).

The typical complaints are these matches are much more affected by luck (time of day shot, wind, etc) or that making one or two unforced errors pretty much kills your chance at winning.

It was interesting to hear that people got so put off by having a single stage with a skill they don’t want to practice that it made them not show up. Just shot a club match this morning with a sling stage, had to dig it out of a closet lol, but I still went. Bummer that so many don’t feel the same.

Related to your post I actually quoted lol, I feel like “Ok, I get the complaint, but…you lost because you made mistakes. The person who didn’t won, and s/he had to repeatedly not make mistakes, so it’s not like it was a fluke.” Conditions is a different story, but also that just comes back to an individual’s motivations: if you’re only happy if you’re on the top podium, you best either do the work to be there every time (which includes training for poor conditions) or prepare for much disappointment.

Thanks for the experienced perspectives, I appreciate hearing from those who see a much larger portion of the game than I do.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

It was interesting to hear that people got so put off by having a single stage with a skill they don’t want to practice that it made them not show up. Just shot a club match this morning with a sling stage, had to dig it out of a closet lol, but I still went. Bummer that so many don’t feel the same.

Related to your post I actually quoted lol, I feel like “Ok, I get the complaint, but…you lost because you made mistakes. The person who didn’t won, and s/he had to repeatedly not make mistakes, so it’s not like it was a fluke.” Conditions is a different story, but also that just comes back to an individual’s motivations: if you’re only happy if you’re on the top podium, you best either do the work to be there every time (which includes training for poor conditions) or prepare for much disappointment.

Thanks for the experienced perspectives, I appreciate hearing from those who see a much larger portion of the game than I do.

It’s like most things. There’s pros and cons. It can be a downer when you’re shooting well and something like a gust or lighting causes you to drop a shot and that’s the difference in 1st and 2nd. But it goes both ways.

Now when it’s an unforced error, I kinda like those situations. It reminds you that you can’t take your focus off anything. There’s a saying in pool/billiards that’s attributed to several players that goes something like “I didn’t become good when I started making the hard shots, I got good when I stopped missing the easy ones.”


And ya, the game has evolved. It used to be mainly “practical” things and training. But is now more a straight up game to most. And that’s fine.

 

[Paradox]

Why do you think Id write a post about [heavy 6mm] being an example of 'impractical marksmanship?' Cuz 6mm doesn't work out well in the 400yd 'center' scheme - so GTFO 6mm!
-------------------------------------
A more real question I really do have for any military people out there. What is the current role of a .308 bolt gun in a military setting? Was it included in the MRAD purely as a 'wind training tool' and have zero combat role? Didn't DMR gravitate more to the KAC M110 semi auto realm? So what combat purpose does bolt 308 serve these days?

The preferred LR Sniper round is the 338 Lapua. Claimed to be the perfect balance of accuracy and power in the gap between the 300 and .50. Followed by the 300WM, and while not in the military, of the few vets i know personally that served in the middle east, the M110 is the least favorite and claimed to suffer the usual feed issues sand and grit the AR platform has alway been a victim of.

 

[Paradox]

Is excelling at competitions with a 6mm/20+lb rifle an example of practical marksmanship (in general)?

Practical can mean many things to different personalities (staying in the short action .308 bolt face arena). Could mean what gives you the best chance of beating your opponent (low recoil/faster bullet = lighter bullet/heavy gun)- 6mmXYZ/competition. Could mean what gives you the best chance of a 1 shot hit and knock down (higher energy at target = quick/heavier bullet) - 7mm08, hunting. Could mean all of those but with better barrel life and maneuverability (retained energy, simple) - .308, military. Could mean a balance of barrel life, speed, retained energy and maneuverable weight with manageable recoil - 6.5mm (my bias for now).

Ive considered a 6mm rifle but am hesitant - I keep thinking its a cheater rifle of sorts. Its already the lowest recoiling of the ones listed above, and almost everybody I see shooting 6mm has 20lb+ attached to it. It is the result IMO of too much focus on 10 shot/hits on 1 target, basically just running the bolt, and not enough emphasis on PRACTICALITY. This is a generalization, but the pattern I see on the whole.

When you start football/basketball at a young age you get a smaller ball to throw/shoot - it makes the game easier and can hide minute flaws (but at that age more just makes the game more fun - like a trainer .22 rifle (ammo cost big factor there)). But you grow up and they switch to 'bigger balls' to challenge the individuals' skill level more and make them excel in all areas of the game.

In that same vein I think the 6mm train will be fleeting because it either covers up flaws in ones 'marksmanship' game or gives unfair advantage to advanced level shooters, creating a chasm between amateurs and pros that seems to favor status quo/unfair (like if one team got to use smaller balls all the time (or deflated ones lol)) - 30yd throws become easier; 30ft shots go in more often.

My view is the better you are at a sport, the more you should challenge yourself (in basketball they use smaller rims to build 3pt accuracy). There is an aspect of 'simply winning' and if you could choose anything - what makes you the hardest to beat? But I think 6mm/20+lb has become too much about making you look better versus actually making your overall marksmanship better.

Do you disagree?

*Does anyone use a lightweight 6mm gun? That sounds semi-interesting but I wonder why not just use a light 6.5CM at that point?

Practical to me is price, availability, and proven performance. And intended use. .308 is proven in both military and police use, its cheap, available in bulk, and accurate as well as easy on barrels. Vs 6.5 which is 3x the price, runs out barrel in record time, and hold almost no advantage over the 308 at 500 yards or less. as for recoil, in an AR platform recoil is Negligible in any caliber.

In the controled environment of competition shooting in a world of hand built exotic precision rifles , exotic hand loads and the endless oddball calibers could be debated forever.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The preferred LR Sniper round is the 338 Lapua. Claimed to be the perfect balance of accuracy and power in the gap between the 300 and .50. Followed by the 300WM, and while not in the military, of the few vets i know personally that served in the middle east, the M110 is the least favorite and claimed to suffer the usual feed issues sand and grit the AR platform has alway been a victim of.

Preferred by who??

 

[Feniks Technologies]

For reference, both the Mrad and ASR deployment kits come with 338 and .300 norma.

338 Lapua is slowly going the way of the dodo.

 

[Paradox]

Preferred by who??

Those I know that used them and its common knowledge the m110 sucks Articles all over
Here is one a many
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/08/17/problems-with-the-semi-automatic-m110-sniper-rifle/

 

[beetroot]

For reference, both the Mrad and ASR deployment kits come with 338 and .300 norma.

338 Lapua is slowly going the way of the dodo.

As a matter of interest the New Zealand Defense Force recently replaced it's AWs with MRADs with both 308 and 338 Lapua barrels.

The ASR project might well be the basis for every other military on the planet and see the move to 300/338 Norma over time. But I don’t see militarys rushing out to replace there existing 338s with Norma just because the US has adopted it.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

As a matter of interest the New Zealand Defense Force recently replaced it's AWs with MRADs with both 308 and 338 Lapua barrels.

The ASR project might well be the basis for every other military on the planet and see the move to 300/338 Norma over time. But I don’t see militarys rushing out to replace there existing 338s with Norma just because the US has adopted it.

I’m just pointing out the above poster’s knowledge is nothing more than a few things he read in the internet and “he knows snipers.”

Also, the term “slowly” was used for a reason.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

I recall a comment made by Frank a couple months ago about how past ~1800yd or thereabouts there are so many unknowns (mainly wind zones and how dynamic they are almost always) that it is much more practical in combat to use your radio and call in some kind of aerial force (predator/ac130/mortar/helo/etc. - I am not versed enough to know exactly what). Point being that shots past that area of [up to a mile say] are pokes in the dark under most circumstances and should not be considered a part of practical role of a military sniper. Im not saying it cant be done or that it isn't attempted and even sometimes achieved, Im saying its akin to a 'hail mary' and there are better methods at that range and beyond (can always test yourself and take the shot right before the [aerial support] impacts).

So with that, is 408/375/338Lap etc even considered a part of their arsenal anymore? (I know Frank doesn't make those calls IRL and military may have a different mindset - but I tend to agree with his take). From my small understanding I think the ASR's 338Norma is meant more for anti material at extended ranges, 300Norma meant for anti personnel, 308 meant as a trainer round because its cheaper and you can learn more about drop/wind with it in the beginning of ones career as a military sniper.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

The M110 comment was more about inside 900yd. KAC cut sand grooves in bcg and made some other changes for the sand but I wouldn't be surprised if sand still wins that battle.

But there must be some kind of merit to a larger frame semi/auto (Sig XM5/277fury) in the desert. I know Im just shooting myself in the foot bringing that guy up lol but so be it....

What are yalls thoughts on the new M5 and the associated Vortex 'smart' optic (XM157)? Can shine with few years of fine tuning or complete bust no matter? Sure will be spendy; but will defeat body armor at distance....?

 

[Paradox]

I recall a comment made by Frank a couple months ago about how past ~1800yd or thereabouts there are so many unknowns (mainly wind zones and how dynamic they are almost always) that it is much more practical in combat to use your radio and call in some kind of aerial force (predator/ac130/mortar/helo/etc. - I am not versed enough to know exactly what). Point being that shots past that area of [up to a mile say] are pokes in the dark under most circumstances and should not be considered a part of practical role of a military sniper. Im not saying it cant be done or that it isn't attempted and even sometimes achieved, Im saying its akin to a 'hail mary' and there are better methods at that range and beyond (can always test yourself and take the shot right before the [aerial support] impacts).

So with that, is 408/375/338Lap etc even considered a part of their arsenal anymore? (I know Frank doesn't make those calls IRL and military may have a different mindset - but I tend to agree with his take). From my small understanding I think the ASR's 338Norma is meant more for anti material at extended ranges, 300Norma meant for anti personnel, 308 meant as a trainer round because its cheaper and you can learn more about drop/wind with it in the beginning of ones career as a military sniper.

Wheres that leave the MK12? Airsoft gun? If the 308 is a trainer the 5.56 has to be a practical joke. The craziest thing about the military is when proven because problem. Any of those rounds are devastating but now apparently they need to be phased out, well at the same time continuing along with a virtually useless M4, what are they up to at this .40 or 50 different calibers they’ve played with in the search for a better bullet for it. The real joke is all the velocity and in poor stopping power or tired completely to the fact that the original weapon was specifically designed for a 20 inch barrel with a 112 twist, then for close quarters they wonder why when they chopped it down to 14 and half inches it lost its punch. Worse yet, this is all known back in the 60s with the original and 16 based carving they tried. That said the fact that they still haven’t replaced around even after all this testing tells me it’s some kind of internal political issue because there’s many options that would immediately make the wedding better. On the other end you’ll soon see an even bigger fuck up as they repeat V mistake of the fully automatic M14. They try to fill too many roles with one design they want to be the jack of all trades. This new polymer bullshit weapons they’re testing are supposed to fill the role of the M4, MK12, and m249. Good luck with that. A carbine length barrel feeling the role of a basic issue and four then in the hands on the next guy it becomes a mark 12 and lastly it was somehow have enough ammo stuffed in it to fill the M249’s role. That’ll be a train wreck. When they did the Colt 45 after 100 years of proven use for a shitty Beretta, there was obviously someone with his hands in the cookie jar, Which is in any secret I suppose as the whole freaking systems corrupt to the core

 

[Ubaderb]

Wheres that leave the MK12? Airsoft gun? If the 308 is a trainer the 5.56 has to be a practical joke. The craziest thing about the military is when proven because problem. Any of those rounds are devastating but now apparently they need to be phased out, well at the same time continuing along with a virtually useless M4, what are they up to at this .40 or 50 different calibers they’ve played with in the search for a better bullet for it. The real joke is all the velocity and in poor stopping power or tired completely to the fact that the original weapon was specifically designed for a 20 inch barrel with a 112 twist, then for close quarters they wonder why when they chopped it down to 14 and half inches it lost its punch. Worse yet, this is all known back in the 60s with the original and 16 based carving they tried. That said the fact that they still haven’t replaced around even after all this testing tells me it’s some kind of internal political issue because there’s many options that would immediately make the wedding better. On the other end you’ll soon see an even bigger fuck up as they repeat V mistake of the fully automatic M14. They try to fill too many roles with one design they want to be the jack of all trades. This new polymer bullshit weapons they’re testing are supposed to fill the role of the M4, MK12, and m249. Good luck with that. A carbine length barrel feeling the role of a basic issue and four then in the hands on the next guy it becomes a mark 12 and lastly it was somehow have enough ammo stuffed in it to fill the M249’s role. That’ll be a train wreck. When they did the Colt 45 after 100 years of proven use for a shitty Beretta, there was obviously someone with his hands in the cookie jar, Which is in any secret I suppose as the whole freaking systems corrupt to the core

This tangent has nothing to do with the fact that yes, 308 in this situation is a training round. Hence why the ASR package has a 308 barrel.

 

[Paradox]

This tangent has nothing to do with the fact that yes, 308 in this situation is a training round. Hence why the ASR package has a 308 barrel.

after reading it again i makes even less sense. I take SA as short action? and that said 5.56 is not, and regardless its like the test that ask which object doesn't belong, 5.56 might as well be .17hmr . That being said training round for who and what purpose? Perhaps most of the posts are spent on the mystery of what the implied definition of Practical, actually this whole forum is fuck because of the posting code, whoever developed these cookie cutter forum sites used by everyone, I've come to the conclusion that half the aurging is because people are posting replies that may be attaching to the wrong original contents creating this shit storm of chaos, i don't even know if you're comment is even relevant because it might have been destined for elsewhere.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

after reading it again i makes even less sense. I take SA as short action? and that said 5.56 is not, and regardless its like the test that ask which object doesn't belong, 5.56 might as well be .17hmr . That being said training round for who and what purpose? Perhaps most of the posts are spent on the mystery of what the implied definition of Practical, actually this whole forum is fuck because of the posting code, whoever developed these cookie cutter forum sites used by everyone, I've come to the conclusion that half the aurging is because people are posting replies that may be attaching to the wrong original contents creating this shit storm of chaos, i don't even know if you're comment is even relevant because it might have been destined for elsewhere.

.....and your comment is relevant?

Try making your point in a less 'throw 100 things at the wall and see which one sticks' kind of way. What are you answering, what is the main point in your answer, what details do you have to provide to bolster your main point? That way its more of a useful discourse.

(the forum can definitely be "fuck" if you want it to be this much I know. But if you try to be semi respectful it can be worthwhile in some instances).

 

[Paradox]

What is the point? How does a 556 and 308 and the word practical even belong on the same page, i was trying to understand the question was no one else seem to understand either based on the various completely different responses. The problem with this form is no matter what is posted there’s always someone to post something negative. I’m still trying to figure out how there’s people on this forum and I haven’t made one comment or post related to guns of any kind, and simply have dozens of nasty comments to everyone about everything on any subject

 

[Ubaderb]

What is the point? How does a 556 and 308 and the word practical even belong on the same page, i was trying to understand the question was no one else seem to understand either based on the various completely different responses. The problem with this form is no matter what is posted there’s always someone to post something negative. I’m still trying to figure out how there’s people on this forum and I haven’t made one comment or post related to guns of any kind, and simply have dozens of nasty comments to everyone about everything on any subject

How’s that saying go? “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole”. Seriously though man, take a breather when you post and give us some kind of proper grammar and punctuation. I promise this site will be a lot better if you don’t come in with a know it all attitude.

 

[Paradox]

How’s that saying go? “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole”. Seriously though man, take a breather when you post and give us some kind of proper grammar and punctuation. I promise this site will be a lot better if you don’t come in with a know it all attitude.

What am I writing a fucking legal document? I got a better idea, when I don’t like something or have interest in a post, I don’t say anything. You characters however have to post on everything, the funny thing is when I joined this stupid fucking forum, As I searched I came across dozens of posts of people wanting to leave and asking how do you cancel, because of shit just like this. That said in the spirit of them, I’ll just do my thing and enjoy the fact that characters like you don’t like it.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

You don't have to respond to the negative comments, you can choose to respond to a few IF YOU WANT or you can focus only on the comments that move the ball forward. Choice is yours, there will always be people who disagree with you; some are open minded and wiling to hear you out...most are close minded, is what it is, and their 'hater-esque' comments are really only an attempt to get you to lose focus and get all bent out of shape over some letters on a keyboard.

Know what you want to get from a comment, know that its the internet and most everything you say will attract 'haters', but also know that you cant test any of your ideas without sharing with other people. Double edged sword, but thats most of life anyway.

 

[Paradox]

You don't have to respond to the negative comments, you can choose to respond to a few IF YOU WANT or you can focus only on the comments that move the ball forward. Choice is yours, there will always be people who disagree with you; some are open minded and wiling to hear you out...most are close minded, is what it is, and their 'hater-esque' comments are really only an attempt to get you to lose focus and get all bent out of shape over some letters on a keyboard.

Know what you want to get from a comment, know that its the internet and most everything you say will attract 'haters', but also know that you cant test any of your ideas without sharing with other people. Double edged sword, but thats most of life anyway.

Listen i get what your saying, but Here’s the thing. I belong to many forums, and this it the only one where i dont care what you post the same assholes comment. Theres a problem when i look up profiles of some that have been here for years have made zero posts related to guns ever.

You ask a question and you get a reply like In this is some born knowledge, or you comment and you know nothing.

Then the Structure of your paragraphs, your punctuation etc.

And here’s the Real deal While ive recently found interest In the long range shooting and I’m not that experienced, 30 years of goddamn law-enforcement, means I have more training and weapons in real world situation’s then some guy Who Think it’s just because he’s become accomplished at the long-distance game that that somehow trumps any other type of expertise in weapons.

They feel realize all of our shooting is within 7 yards better than 90% of the time, and our snipers average shot is from 75 yards. Just because someones claims to be world class precision shooter in competition, doesn’t for one minute mean in a encounter that they can make a 3/4 of second decision to assess, drawl and get a couple rounds off before getting shot yourself. I paid my dues, and if you notice you don’t see me purposely making disrespectful comments to a poster asking a question therefore I feel I demand the same respect.

Then I see some kid asking questions about an AR build, With some miss matched stuff and Choosing expensive round not widely available, and then I suggest not a solution and I’m still an asshole. It really doesn’t matter what you post sometimes Post stuff just to see what kind of dumb ass remarks I get.

I can honestly say I don’t believe there’s more than a dozen guys on here with any respect as is evident when i get A response from someone that actually makes a intelligent statement.

I said the only reason I respond because I realize that’s all I have in their shitty lives, as your life has a suck if your entire existence is trying to knock people down, At some point we can make that smart ass comment any place within arms reach somebody and get the ass being in their life that said well they think they’re waiting me up trust me he calling them a motherfucker long enough will get old so it’s more reminding them of how worthless their miserable lives are what are, But if it makes you feel better you show me respect and so I’ll show the same to you and start ignoring them.

Thanks for reaching out and have a good night