Watching the shot show vid with frank and the 6.5 guys something came up that always interested me. Rifle weight . A 30 pound 6mm rifle is going to let you get away with a lot . A lighter rifle is going to be easier to pack although if you’re being sloppy you’re going to see it . So where do we draw the line when it comes to a “duty, tactical, fighting, defensive” type rifle ? What should be our goal weight without losing performance and ability to pack the rifle?
- Thread starter CuTm
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loaded question as it’s like asking for the best trigger. It will depend on the individual and primary use. A primarily PRS gun vs backpack gun. Could all swap place of each other but what does each person want to give up vs gain?
Each Mil or LE gun I have held has been 15-20lbs Range as is each PRS rig
Each Mil or LE gun I have held has been 15-20lbs Range as is each PRS rig
You draw the line at trying to make one rifle do everything. A do it all rifle doesn’t exist unless you’re swapping barrels and stocks between tasks. Who’s “fighting” with their precision bolt gun or using it for defense? That’s just fucking stupid.
Spec a rifle for the task at hand. If there’s another task, spec another rifle. If you want a comp rifle, build one. If you want a hunting/pack rifle, build one.
Spec a rifle for the task at hand. If there’s another task, spec another rifle. If you want a comp rifle, build one. If you want a hunting/pack rifle, build one.
On an Elk hunting trip to western Montana in 2016 I carried a 11 pound Pre-64 M-70 in 300 Mag with Mcmillian stock and NF 3.5x15 scope, After humping the Rockies for a few days I was ready for a lighter rifle. Remember you are also carrying a pack with other necessary gear: clothing, food, water, game bags, etc.
I just could not imaging carrying my 16-17 pound heavy barrel rifle on that trip. F-class fine; mountain hunting not so much.
Good luck
Jerry
I just could not imaging carrying my 16-17 pound heavy barrel rifle on that trip. F-class fine; mountain hunting not so much.
Good luck
Jerry
I'm working on a custom 6mm build for PRS type comps and I am staying around that 17-18 pound mark with the focus of not being too heavy if hauling around for the more field type matches, but still enough weight to help with recoil management. I do agree with Frank that we are going to come full circle on the heavy rigs if comps start to involve more movement during and between stages.
My Tikka CTR 20" 6.5CM with a Steiner Predator in ARC rings is pretty solid feeling when shooting, but also light enough that it's my go to hunting/handy precision rifle. From a stable rested position it sits between .7-.9MOA on any given day with factory ELD 140gr. I don't know how much it weighs but I'd wager a guess that it's still well under 10lbs unloaded.
Personally, for a rifle that I'm going to carry any significant distance, I'm looking for sub-10 pounds all-in (optic, ammo, etc...). My first attempt at such a build failed in that regard... I ended up at 12 pounds without ammo. Live and learn.
For a bench-rested gun, I don't care about weight and just go with whatever action, barrel contour, etc... I want/can afford for that build.
For a bench-rested gun, I don't care about weight and just go with whatever action, barrel contour, etc... I want/can afford for that build.
Some people are bringing "hunting" and "packing" into this conversation and it makes me think they aren't reading the description the OP wrote. When the description is “duty, tactical, fighting, defensive type rifle" it almost makes me think it'll be used either in a 2 way range or on rooftops looking down and trying to eliminate threats should they pop up. I've really never done this type of work but I imagine you wouldn't want something light for this application like you would on a hunting trip in the mountains for elk. Maybe 14 to 18 pounds would be my guess?
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To be fair, I would say that for the vast majority of members on this forum, packing/hunting is as close as they're realistically going to get to a duty/tactical/fighting type of situation. Honestly, for those who DO find themselves in those types of situations, they seldom have much choice in the hardware that is issued to them.
I mean, are there forum members that carry 15+ pound rigs around the mountains? Sure... but if I had to guess, I'd say that most folks here carry their rifles less than 100 yards from the truck/4 wheeler on average; I can't blame 'em, I do the same thing. However, for those situations where that's not possible, then I tend to fall into the "lighter is better" mentality. A shooter worn out from carrying a heavy gun is very probably going to be less accurate shooting that heavy gun than would be a shooter carrying/shooting a lighter gun due to the difference in physical fatigue. Keep in mind, too, that these sorts of situations tend to put more emphasis on first round/cold bore hits than on putting five rounds through the same hole. Live targets (whether they be game animals or two-legged critters) tend to move when a shot is fired, so it's not like the shooter is going to be likely to be presented with the exact same shot multiple times.
I'm not saying you're claiming anything that isn't true. You're probably right in your statements. Regardless, the OP didn't mention any packing/hiking so I was answering what was asked whereas many people, in general (not picking on anyone specific) usually wonder off and don't answer what was asked. Instead, they assume other scenarios and answer in such a way.
In my experience, which is military, LE, hunting and comps, for “duty, tactical, fighting, defensive” use I have found bolt guns in the 10-15 lb range work well and allow you to be mobile and still manage recoil very well. Of course this is also caliber specific, my world is pretty much 308, 6.5cm and 260. My personal go to gun for your posted application is an AR308, duty loadout to include suppressor comes in just under 14 lbs. I’ve cleared houses, spent hours moving to firing positions, spent hours on glass, positional shooting, and shot targets out to 800 yards with ease without getting to fatigued from a heavyweight rifle.
So my opinion is: 10-15 pound range
So my opinion is: 10-15 pound range
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At Mammoth (closest situation I have to op's description) this year I saw guys running lpvo's on 14.5 carbines and folks running 25+ lb rigs. It really depends on comfort level and the right tool for the right job. If you are comfortable with a <10 lb carbine and low power optic great, but if you want to carry a 20+ lb gun, go for it. My rifle was 12.8 lbs with no mag or ammo and packed weight was 48 lbs. I plan to run a sub 10 lb gun and pack sub 40 next year.
Seeing how you posted this in the bolt actions portion of the forum, are we to assume you cannot have a semi-auto rifle for 'duty, tactical, defense, or fighting'? All the above can be accomplished with a 10.3" pistol AR with a folding brace to pack.
I also feel that the 10-15 pound range is a good compromise. Probably closer to the high end for me. But as a get older I may try to go lighter.
Hunting rig: as light as possible
Work/practical/tactical: 14-20lbs
Open/comp gun: sky is the limit
I do think they should take another look at tactical division. Expand it to include 6.5creed and 300wm since many dept/agencies/mil are using those as well. Limit the weight to 22lbs, limit the equipment to a couple bags and a tripod, and limit the stocks chassis to only one’s commonly found on work/service rifles.
That would get more interest into the division, and also give people who want to see a restricted class somewhere to go.
Work/practical/tactical: 14-20lbs
Open/comp gun: sky is the limit
I do think they should take another look at tactical division. Expand it to include 6.5creed and 300wm since many dept/agencies/mil are using those as well. Limit the weight to 22lbs, limit the equipment to a couple bags and a tripod, and limit the stocks chassis to only one’s commonly found on work/service rifles.
That would get more interest into the division, and also give people who want to see a restricted class somewhere to go.
Short action PRS I aim for 9-11lb rifle. Ends up 12-14lb by the time you put optics, bipod, can, etc.
I like them lighter than most, and I'm not afraid to run 3b or 4 profile barrels, either.
I like them lighter than most, and I'm not afraid to run 3b or 4 profile barrels, either.
If we are talking PRS I think a sub-15 lb with 1-bag, bipod, and a backpack class would be cool to see.
Didn’t do anything fancy with either of these to make them extra “heavy” per se. They ended up in the 18-19 lb. range without even trying. They work great for match use, but do get a little heavy humping around on coyote hunts. But even then, the weight doesn’t stop me from taking them out. I’ve been lifting!
The KMW in 6 Creed is near recoil-less with an APA brake.
The AI AT is stock, although I have thought about adding some weight to it. It’s got manageable recoil with a 6IX” suppressor.
That being said... I do maintain a 10.8 lb all-in suppressed 7 SAUM that I hunt with (when they don’t “borrow” it to take around to trade shows).
The KMW in 6 Creed is near recoil-less with an APA brake.
The AI AT is stock, although I have thought about adding some weight to it. It’s got manageable recoil with a 6IX” suppressor.
That being said... I do maintain a 10.8 lb all-in suppressed 7 SAUM that I hunt with (when they don’t “borrow” it to take around to trade shows).
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I have a ~18.5 lbs long action 28” barrel and a ~9lb short 19” as well as some in between. They each have their place, yes the heavy is better for extreme range and ease of use but I would not generally want to carry it for long hikes. If you want to compromise with one then go more towards the 10-13lb range, or just have the ability to swap parts to go heavy or light ala barloc or whatever barrel change and adjustable weight chassis.
Tac/Def? What does a 16" AR15 carbine with govt profile barrel weigh, with RDS, sling, and loaded 30 round mag?
Hunting? Less than it does today. Always less.
Competition? Whatever butters your toast.
Hunting? Less than it does today. Always less.
Competition? Whatever butters your toast.
It all depends on what you're comfortable carrying around and what exactly your use case scenario is, the answer will be different for everyone.
I can hunt elk using a 20 pound rifle because I'm young and spry, and I don't have to pack more than a radio, my pocket knife, and a few granola bars with me in my pockets. Doesn't meant I don't prefer a lighter (sub 10 pounds, ideally) rifle when I'm hiking through the timber, but I can make it work if I need to.
I can shoot PRS matches using a sub 10 pound rifle because there's no hard weight requirement and I have decent recoil management techniques. This doesn't mean I don't prefer a heavier (over 20 pounds, ideally) rifle when I'm shooting off a barricade, but I can make it work if I need to.
I can carry around 30+ pounds all day if required, but I would strongly prefer to avoid it. I can manage the recoil of a 8 pound hunting rig in competition if required, but I would strongly prefer to avoid it. Those in other scenarios will have their own requirements.
To really answer the question you'd have to ask yourself the following questions:
I can hunt elk using a 20 pound rifle because I'm young and spry, and I don't have to pack more than a radio, my pocket knife, and a few granola bars with me in my pockets. Doesn't meant I don't prefer a lighter (sub 10 pounds, ideally) rifle when I'm hiking through the timber, but I can make it work if I need to.
I can shoot PRS matches using a sub 10 pound rifle because there's no hard weight requirement and I have decent recoil management techniques. This doesn't mean I don't prefer a heavier (over 20 pounds, ideally) rifle when I'm shooting off a barricade, but I can make it work if I need to.
I can carry around 30+ pounds all day if required, but I would strongly prefer to avoid it. I can manage the recoil of a 8 pound hunting rig in competition if required, but I would strongly prefer to avoid it. Those in other scenarios will have their own requirements.
To really answer the question you'd have to ask yourself the following questions:
- How long will I be carrying the rifle around?
- How much weight can I or do I want to carry for that long?
- How much weight will I carry that isn't the rifle?
- How important is recoil reduction for my intended use? Will I be shooting from the prone or off of obstacles? Will I need to spot all of my misses and are quick follow up shots important?
- How much do I want to spend on this rifle (super light and super heavy doesn't really come all that cheap)
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