Advanced Marksmanship Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

#351
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Mark, Excellent! that'll be a great target to gather a cold bore, one each on the little diamonds at 100/200 and collect data further back, distance depending on equipment/skill.

I like the grid lines.

I really appreciate it!

How do I save and print that puppy?

Mark
 
#354
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I shot this drill for the first time today.
DotDrillMay26.jpg

I was pretty happy with the results.
shot with .308 Remington 700 Target Tactical 5R with a Leupold 8.5-25x50 Mark 4 LR/T
 
#355
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Mark, That final version you sent works great with a 15x scope! I was thinking, a version for moa and one for mrad with the moa being moa inner diameter at each distance and the mrad .3? to be relative. When I used the M3, struggled with 10x

Mark
 
#356
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Can someone post where I can download the practical tactical target please? I clicked on the link in the original post and it won't work. Thanks in advance guys!
 
#357
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Shot mine for the first time today with a new rifle (.308 700PSS) bought here on the hide from bglimpse. My dots printed smaller at .688"

Shooting the first few were no problem...then consistency started to go. Great drill, I'm only satisfied with about 50% so I've got to get some more trigger time focusing on fundamentals consistently.

shdrill4-3-11.JPG
 
#359
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

img033o.jpg


My first attempt at this. When I got to the range I realized I forgot my rear bag so this was done off my bipod, prone with just me to steady it. It's certainly harder than it looks.
100 Yards, three rounds of five in about 15 minutes.
Rifle:
Savage Short action .308
McMillan HTG stock, bedded
Brux straight tube 1/11 24in
Premier 3-15x scope
Badger rings
Atlas bipod
 
#361
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I think in terms of 'dispersion', not 'groups'. I place very little primary value on group size, but will employ dispersion as a tool to help me deduce conditions and their effects.

For me, this is the primary value of sighter shots; to determine a correlation between observable environmental 'tells' and their effects without windage, etc., corrections. In essence, I'm calibrating my windage wetware for contemporary conditions.

When performing accuracy load development, specific group sizes are immaterial, but comparative differences constitute valuable data.

Greg
 
#362
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice shooting. It's a real challenge every time you go to the range. I haven't cleaned one yet but I will. </div></div>

Thanks. Now my mission is to get them all. Next trip is with all of my equipment!!
wink.gif
 
#363
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

First try for me on the half-inch dots.
I shot this today from a bench at a little over 100 yards. I don't have a bipod yet.
The first and second 5 shot strings were less than 30 seconds for each string. The last string of 5 was a little slower, maybe a total of 45 seconds.
The shot in the sighter at the bottom was the last round in the box of loads, and the worst of the bunch.
I did wait a few minutes between strings to let the barrel cool.


dotdrill.jpg
 
#366
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I don't have the rifle back from the gunsmith, so I can't test this yet, BUT....

I wonder if we can change the color from black, to maybe like red or orange, so it's easier to see the crosshair/floating crosshair for ones who don't have illuminated reticles? or can you see it?
 
#367
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper +
kids 'drafting' protractor with a 1" hole in it +
orange sharpie

=

lots of targets just like you like them.
 
#369
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

This is my own dot target. A little easier to aim with an FFP reticle.

True cold bore at the upper left. I BS'd with my friends for a while after the cold bore and then returned to finish the target. A few flyers but all went into .55". The center dot is .33". 100 yards and witnessed by another hide member.

AIAW 6.5X47 130 JLK's at 2850 S&B 4-16 (P3 mildot)
Iphonepics142.jpg





This one is from a few months back. You all should know the target but if you don't, the center dot is about .27" I think.

Same AIAW as above, but with the factory .308 barrel. Lap 155's at 2800fps. Same range, same yardage, and in the same session.
photo-2.jpg

 
#370
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Had a go at the target this weekend, really good fun to shoot. I was really impressed with the consistency of my misses! If anyone is good at diagnosing and interpreting targets then please feel free to chime in, would value your opinions. Shot with Rem 700 SPS 20" with AICS.

23082011003-1.jpg


Cheers
Ed
 
#371
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Went to the range today and worked on some fundamentals, areas and things I suspected were a problem. I think I got some of them wiped out. I did a lot of work with my Savage Model 93, .17 HMR that has a cheap Burris 3-9X scope. This is a ten shot group at 100 yds.
nbwwuq.jpg

Then I shot one practical tactical target. I had four misses but nothing way off the mark and the hits I had were more solid. I'll clean this one day. The practical tactical was shot with a 6.5x47 Lapua, Schmidt & Bender PMII 4-16x50.
b9d383.jpg
 
#372
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

@Lowlight... can't download your target jpg.. something about access list not allowed mumble. Can you check so we can d/l the full size jpg?
 
#374
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jagged77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Had a go at the target this weekend, really good fun to shoot. I was really impressed with the consistency of my misses! If anyone is good at diagnosing and interpreting targets then please feel free to chime in, would value your opinions. Shot with Rem 700 SPS 20" with AICS.

23082011003-1.jpg


Cheers
Ed </div></div>
Great shooting
In my opinion, I think you had something going on with your rear rest/cheek weld. I see your dispersion to be from the 1 o'clock to 7 'clock.
SScott
 
#376
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I decided to try my hand at the dot drill this morning while at the range. It was about 8:30am 39*, no wind to speak of. The rifle is a 700 that Gap rebarreled and I just two weeks ago bed in a new T4A. The zero shot was after a couple of groups and I knew I missed.
tmp139.jpg
 
#382
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Can't wait to try these out next week at the range. Definitely looks like more fun than shooting 3 or 5 shots groups over and over. As always, thanks for the help Sniper's Hide!
 
#383
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

OK, guys, think about this.

You put your cross hairs in the middle of one dot and shoot, bang, hole made.

You go to another dot, put your cross hairs in the middo of it and shoot, bang, hole made.

I ask you this, other than testing one's ability to move from one point to another, acquire the target and place the shot, how is than any more indicative of the rifle's accuracy/repeatability than shooting at the same dot?
 
#384
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, guys, think about this.

You put your cross hairs in the middle of one dot and shoot, bang, hole made.

You go to another dot, put your cross hairs in the middo of it and shoot, bang, hole made.

I ask you this, other than testing one's ability to move from one point to another, acquire the target and place the shot, how is than any more indicative of the rifle's accuracy/repeatability than shooting at the same dot?</div></div>

He's right. In fact, the dot drill result will likely be less indicative of <span style="font-style: italic">the rifle's</span> accuracy/repeatability than shooting at the same dot. But that's not the point of it.
 
#386
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Its the same idea as what I have shot with air rifles in the past. Sure you can zero on one exact point on the paper, but when you start aiming at different points your POI with shift ever so slightly. Using this drill you may be able to see where you tend to have a POI shift when aiming at different angles.
 
#387
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

i thought of a cool game to play with this target. me and my partner zero on the bottom circle. then on will shoot any circle they want, the the other shooter then has to hit the same target but only by dialing the correct dope in the scope while still aiming at the bottom target.
 
#388
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: threetrees</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpl Snafu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can make your own here:

http://www.mindflow.com.au/targets/ </div></div>

wow. very nice. thanks for that </div></div>

+1 Thanks for sharing this link. It's definite bookmark for the future. Very slick.
 
#389
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

I put a Timney trigger and an H&S stock on my Rem 700 SPS tactical. Shot it today at 100 yards with a sandbag upfront and one at the rear.

Top target is using .308 Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match SMK.

51012GMMSMK.jpg


Bottom target using .308 Federal 168gr American Eagle.

51012AmericanEagle2.jpg
 
#390
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

So I've made my third attempt at the 3/4" dot drill at 100 yards, and finally (just barely) managed to hit them all, I nearly blew it on the first shot but it is an edge hit. I don't know which of the 2 zero shots was the cold bore, I couldn't see the those hits.

Shot prone with a bipod and rear support (an old stinky blanket) with a 243 win, 27 7/8 bartlein extra heavy barrel (from grizzly) on a surgeon action, manners T4A stock, R&D bottom metal, harris short bipod, nikon 4-16 tactical scope and leupold rings, smithed by Randall 2156SMK.

243dotdrill.jpg
 
#392
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, guys, think about this.

You put your cross hairs in the middle of one dot and shoot, bang, hole made.

You go to another dot, put your cross hairs in the middo of it and shoot, bang, hole made.

I ask you this, other than testing one's ability to move from one point to another, acquire the target and place the shot, how is than any more indicative of the rifle's accuracy/repeatability than shooting at the same dot? </div></div>


The way I see it is it's about building a position acquiring a sight picture firing your shot then moving on to the next target and having to do it all again.

I think shooting groupes is a useful way to train but I think the dot drills are a good way as well.
 
#393
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Question for you guys who know how to analyze these dot drills. Yesterday I gave it a shot for the first time with a bolt rifle (I had done it once before with an AR with "okay" results).

I was shooting on Lowlight's dot drill with 3/4" circles, not the 1/2" one....I wanted to try an easier one my first time with this rifle. I'm sorry I don't have a picture of my target (so freakin' frustrated that I quit after 10 shots), but I can easily describe what I was seeing.

100 yards...zero wind...shooting from a bench...rifle bagged.
My bullet was impacting at 12:30 or 1:00 just outside the black on 8 of the 10 "dots" I shot. It almost looked like I was purposefully putting the holes there every time. And yes...the gun is zeroed perfectly. I have found that if I don't really take my time (like 20+ seconds to shoot after knocking safety off), I usually shoot about 3/4" high and maybe 1/4" to 1/2" to the right. If I REALLY take my time, I can put one right through the center, but I am trying to train myself to shoot well in a "reasonable" period of time.

I know there are a lot of experienced guys on here who can probably diagnose this pretty easily. Again, sorry I didn't take a photo of the target. I was just so pissed that I wasn't hitting the dots that I stared doing other stuff.

I would assume it is a trigger-control thing, but that's just a guess on my part.
I will tattle on myself and admit that I adjusted my trigger (Timney) too light and will be tightening it up a little this weekend. When I first shot the rifle, I found the trigger was too heavy and I ended up adjusting it too light. Don't know if this might be a contributing factor. I thought I could get used to it being light, but I can't.
 
#394
Re: Practical Tactical Practice - Avoiding Group Shots

Jethro,
Like you suggested, it sounds like a trigger control problem. Are you right handed? Very common for righties to shoot high and right when shooting fast. I'm a lefty and when I pull one its almost always high and left.
I say pull one, but what you may actually be doing is pushing (not pulling) on the right side of the trigger which pushes the rear of the rifle ever so slightly left and your bullet will impact slightly right... That's my guess...
 
#395
Old thread, new gun, first time. GAP Crusader .308, FGMM 168gr, prone with bipod and rear bag. 1/2" dot target, 10-round string after doing some chrono-ing of various factory loads. Shot from top down, left to right. Shot 9 was thrown when I shifted a touch to get more comfortable and was not on the gun well. I like this drill. I like this rifle, too!

Dots1_sm.JPG


GAP%203%20sm.jpg
 
#396
NICE. I stumbled across this thread earlier today (before you posted) and downloaded some targets to try some of these drills when I'm home in a few weeks. I'm glad you revived it.
 
#397
Here's mine from today. Still have some practice to do! :cool:

I heard of the Dot Drill from elsewhere, but didn't have any template, so I just made this one up with 1" dots on 11" x 17" paper.
 

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#398
I did this a week ago and it really is harder than it might seem if you've never done it. This is with my DPMS LR308 and I'm not really proud of it, but it is what it is. This one is the 1/2" white dots inside black rings.
image.jpg
 
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#399
This is the first one I ever shot. Shots 1-15 were at the dots; shots 16-20 were at the zero dot. It's a great drill; the two PRS matches I shot this year both had paper stages with tiny targets (flies, hangman ropes, army men, army men heads...). I plan on shooting this target a lot this winter.

8a3d0669adae6323db2d1752158848d2_zps06405847.jpg
 
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