Practicing with AR-15 - bad group sizes

[Smoketheclay]

I don’t have the time to reload enough for my Precision rig, as I’m a bit particular with my loads. So in between, I want to shoot my semi-auto AR-15

I bought a good scope and rings for the AR, but am getting at best 1.5 MOA at 100 yards using Wolf Gold. Sometimes I even go to 3 MOA on my 10 shot groups. I was reading that I need to expect 2.5 MOA with Wolf Gold (which I finally used the last round and won’t buy again).

I bought the Wolf for 30 cents a round. Are there any good priced rounds out there that are < 50 cents a round that will shoot 1 MOA? Am I just asking too much from factory AR-15 ammo?

 

[hafejd30]

I use Fiocchi 55 FMJ. $275/1000 from bulkammo.com. Wolf is crap for accuracy and very dirty. Fiocchi holds about 3/4 MOA in my DDM4V11 and just under 1MOA in my SBR with FN Barrel

 

[MadDuner]

Surprisingly, Silver Bear shoots 1MOA in 5.45x39 and 5.56x45.
Puts all the other steel ammo to shame.
I haven’t tried it in my other AR calibers.

 

[squib]

You are probably have a fast twist rate barrel that likes higher weight bullets.

 

[The DFC]

I get same results from Wolf Gold in every one of my rifles. It's more of a high volume carbine class type of ammo. I don't really have any consistent 1 moa or better factory ammo that you don't pay for-mostly MK262 type 77gr stuff and some 69gr stuff like Australian Outback, Magtech, Hornady Black etc.

 

[squib]

My 1:8 rig likes the 75gr wolf gold or the PPU 75gr match.

 

[Racer88]

Maybe describe your precision AR-15 rig?

I have a precision "Franken" AR-15 (built by a friend) with a 24" 1:8 bull barrel. I can get sub-MOA groups with it with factory ammo. But, the ammo costs more than your 50 cents / rd threshold. My AR likes Federal Gold Medal Match SMK 77-gr ammo.

Here's a recent (last month) sub-1/2 MOA group by my daughter at 200 yards with my AR and factory Federal GMM 77-gr

Same day by me:

Here's a 100 yard target. Four 5-shot groups, all sub-MOA. One of them was an honest 0.388-MOA!

I don't think you're asking too much of factory ammo. Just too cheap!

Get yourself some of this ammo, if you have a twist rate fast enough to stabilize it... 1:8 or 1:7.
It comes to 90 cents a round. But, it sure is fun to challenge yourself to smaller and smaller groups! Or, at least, see what your gun can do (assuming your fundamentals are solid).

Federal Gold Medal 223 Remington Ammo 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HP - Ammo Deals

Federal Gold Medal 223 Remington Ammo 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HP at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 223 Remington ammo.

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I hope that helps!

ETA: I just re-read your post. I think I misunderstood... your AR-15 isn't your precision rig? It's just a "regular AR?" Precision rig is a different rifle? Sorry, if I misunderstood. Nevertheless, using factory match-grade ammo may help. Otherwise...

 

[Smoketheclay]

I use Fiocchi 55 FMJ. $275/1000 from bulkammo.com. Wolf is crap for accuracy and very dirty. Fiocchi holds about 3/4 MOA in my DDM4V11 and just under 1MOA in my SBR with FN Barrel

I actually have a box of Fiocchi. I’ll try it out.

You are probably have a fast twist rate barrel that likes higher weight bullets.
View attachment 7218139

You’re tight, it’s 1:8. Thanks for the diagram, I’ll try some heavier bullets

I get same results from Wolf Gold in every one of my rifles. It's more of a high volume carbine class type of ammo. I don't really have any consistent 1 moa or better factory ammo that you don't pay for-mostly MK262 type 77gr stuff and some 69gr stuff like Australian Outback, Magtech, Hornady Black etc.

Yea I might be asking for too much

My 1:8 rig likes the 75gr wolf gold or the PPU 75gr match.

I’ll try some heavier bullets

Maybe describe your precision AR-15 rig?

I have a precision "Franken" AR-15 (built by a friend) with a 24" 1:8 bull barrel. I can get sub-MOA groups with it with factory ammo. But, the ammo costs more than your 50 cents / rd threshold. My AR likes Federal Gold Medal Match SMK 77-gr ammo.

View attachment 7218168

Here's a recent (last month) sub-1/2 MOA group by my daughter at 200 yards with my AR and factory Federal GMM 77-gr

View attachment 7218159

Same day by me:

View attachment 7218160

Here's a 100 yard target. Four 5-shot groups, all sub-MOA. One of them was an honest 0.388-MOA!

View attachment 7218164

I don't think you're asking too much of factory ammo. Just too cheap!

Get yourself some of this ammo, if you have a twist rate fast enough to stabilize it... 1:8 or 1:7.
It comes to 90 cents a round. But, it sure is fun to challenge yourself to smaller and smaller groups! Or, at least, see what your gun can do (assuming your fundamentals are solid).

Federal Gold Medal 223 Remington Ammo 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HP - Ammo Deals

Federal Gold Medal 223 Remington Ammo 77 Gr Sierra MatchKing HP at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 223 Remington ammo.

www.targetsportsusa.com

I hope that helps!

ETA: I just re-read your post. I think I misunderstood... your AR-15 isn't your precision rig? It's just a "regular AR?" Precision rig is a different rifle? Sorry, if I misunderstood. Nevertheless, using factory match-grade ammo may help. Otherwise...

I have a Daniel Defense upper/BCM barrel.

I added a triggertech trigger and magpul PRS stock with an Athlon Ares scope/Badger rings so my AR would be as close to feeling like my 6.5Cr rifle as possible.

I can shoot my 6.5Cr with $1/round factory ammo for <1MOA which is why I want to keep the AR as close to 30 cents as possible. If I get higher I might as well shoot the 6.5Cr

I’m just gonna end up trying out a bunch of 62-77 grain ammo to find a decent match.

 

[Racer88]

I can shoot my 6.5Cr with $1/round factory ammo for <1MOA which is why I want to keep the AR as close to 30 cents as possible. If I get higher I might as well shoot the 6.5Cr

I’m just gonna end up trying out a bunch of 62-77 grain ammo to find a decent match.

What distances are you shooting?

The only .223 ammo I find at 30 cents / rd is 55-gr FMJ bulk stuff. Even the bulk 62-gr FMJ is 40 cents a round. But, yeah... with a 1:8 twist, you're going to need heavier than 55-gr bullets. I don't know if you'll find 62-77 grain ammo at 30 cents.

Slightly different subject, but since you brought it up... The only factory 6.5CM ammo under $1 I've found to be decent is American Gunner / Hornady Black (same thing). ... about 70 - 75 cents / rd, if I recall. I've shot some great groups with it... and some not so great groups. I found it to be inconsistent. It's OK for "cheap" plinking / practice at 100 yards, but that's about it, IMO. For precision shooting with factory 6.5, it's $1.20+ / rd. Hornady ELD-M, Federal Gold Medal Berger, and Berger Match.

 

[The DFC]

I've got a few BCM barrels-both button and BFH-and I've never been blown away with accuracy. Some of this can be attributed to the fact that I have them configured for 100yd and in-so red dots and ACOGs. I'm not a good enough shooter to shoot small groups well at 100yds with a 4x mag (I'm not a 1/2 moa all day shooter like apparently half this forum is ) I've never really read any great reports of BCM accuracy either.

I dig the brand and have a lot of their stuff -all good to go.

I would buy a box of 77gr SMK of some sort-the best ammo you can find-to at least see what the barrel is capable of-and then adust down from there.

 

[Racer88]

I would buy a box of 77gr SMK of some sort-the best ammo you can find-to at least see what the barrel is capable of-and then adust down from there.

Yep. Treat yourself to a couple of boxes! See if it makes a difference.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Defender Ammunition 77gr SMK at $32/50rds. Slightly over your .50 price point, but definitely worth a try.

 

[The DFC]

Australian Outback Ammo Buy One Get One Free 200 Round .223 Rem 69 GR. Sierra Matchking HPBT UPC: 9332153001865-BOGO

Australian Outback provides shooters with the best quality components when assembling their ammunition. The hollow point boat tail design provides that extra margin of ballistic performance match shooters need to fire at long ranges under adverse conditions. This round is part of a new line of...

globalordnance.com

^^^^Some of the best factory ammo I've ever shot. Comes in 20 round boxes-within each box are (4) plastic packs of (5) rounds. All my ARs love it-and the 308 is tits too. Approaching $0.50/round and Global Ordnance is good to go-bought from them several times.

 

[C4N4DIAN]

What barrel are you using ?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You're expecting match grade results from shit grade ammo, that's the problem. I get it that you want the ammo to be as cheap as possible (who doesn't?) but expecting sub MOA with Wolf ammo is insane. That's garbage ammo, if you're getting 1.5moa from it then I would consider that exceptional for that ammo.

I've only had one $.30+/- 5.56 ammo shoot itty bitty groups and that was one lot of the Federal American Eagle 50gr tipped varmint that I lucked out and ended up with a bunch of. When that ran out I tried some more and while I still got good results (sub MOA), I never got the same accuracy as I did with that one lot.

If you want cost effective match ammo the Magtech/CBC and IMI 77gr is the ticket. The IMI is the better of the two in my experience, most consistent lot to lot, lowest ES's and SD's, and also the fastest by a lot. It's always 3/4moa or better for me out of a good barrel. The Magtech isn't quite as consistent lot to lot, some lots definitely aren't as good as others, the ES's/SD's overall are usually half again or twice what the IMI is, and overall it never seems to be quite as accurate but it's still sub MOA at worst and is what I buy in bulk when IMI is dried up or there's no good sales on it. Magtech/CBC is usually about $.55-$.60/rd and the IMI is usually $.65-$.70/rd. The cost difference for the IMI is worth it unless you come across a killer deal on Magtech and/or the normal places that have IMI are sold out and the only places that have it are higher.

 

[mop89]

I know it’s more then 50cents around, but I’ve had phenomenal luck with hornady black 75gr .223, it can be had for 65cents a round I believe.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

You're expecting match grade results from shit grade ammo, that's the problem. I get it that you want the ammo to be as cheap as possible (who doesn't?) but expecting sub MOA with Wolf ammo is insane. That's garbage ammo, if you're getting 1.5moa from it then I would consider that exceptional for that ammo.

I've only had one $.30+/- 5.56 ammo shoot itty bitty groups and that was one lot of the Federal American Eagle 50gr tipped varmint that I lucked out and ended up with a bunch of. When that ran out I tried some more and while I still got good results (sub MOA), I never got the same accuracy as I did with that one lot.

If you want cost effective match ammo the Magtech/CBC and IMI 77gr is the ticket. The IMI is the better of the two in my experience, most consistent lot to lot, lowest ES's and SD's, and also the fastest by a lot. It's always 3/4moa or better for me out of a good barrel. The Magtech isn't quite as consistent lot to lot, some lots definitely aren't as good as others, the ES's/SD's overall are usually half again or twice what the IMI is, and overall it never seems to be quite as accurate but it's still sub MOA at worst and is what I buy in bulk when IMI is dried up or there's no good sales on it. Magtech/CBC is usually about $.55-$.60/rd and the IMI is usually $.65-$.70/rd. The cost difference for the IMI is worth it unless you come across a killer deal on Magtech and/or the normal places that have IMI are sold out and the only places that have it are higher.

Thats all good but you forgot to mention the part about fast twist barrels shooting light bullets great. Just gotta stop using shitty light bullets then blaming the twist.

 

[hafejd30]

My DD and Fn barrels mentioned above are 1/7. Another upper I have is 1/7 and shoots Fiocchi 55 fmj under 1 MOA. My other AR is 1/9 and shoots better yet with Hornady 55 steel match ammo but I don’t think they make that anymore

The spare upper is 18” white oak barrel and shoots 1/2-3/4 MOA with 75/77 class bullets. Better with heavier but holds its own with the 55 as well

 

[little_scrapper]

So go ahead and practice your fundamentals with cheap ammo. Just remember that your group size wont be indicative of good fundamentals; and maybe thats not helpful. However, I dont see any reason you cant use cheap ammo to work on things like making sure your trigger squeeze is consistant.

I built my own franken rifle with a CHEAP 18" rifle length 416R SS 1:8 (maybe $150). Built with Aero precision matched upper/lower, Young mfg chrome bcg with a stock spring and a H2 buffer. I found three factory loads I (newb) can shoot 3/4MOA with. FGMM 69 gr SMK, Hornady VMax 55 gr and Browning 50 gr varminters.

Also wanted to note I like how the graph above says assuming a nominal velocity of 2800 fps. Yet lists M193 which has a nominal velocity of just north of 3200 fps. Just say'in.

My buddy bought a FleetFarm special Huldra or whatever is called. $400-500 with about a dozen mags. 16" barrel and it shoots M193's and AE 55 gr FMJ (cheap ammos) right at 1MOA. I mean how lucky is that? Buy a bottom shelf AR15 and it happens to shoot plinking ammo very well. Just gotta find the right bullet weight and velocity combo your rifle likes.

 

[Lawless]

Wolf Gold is not steel case junk ammo. It is brass cased 5.56 M193 despite saying .223 on the box. Don’t confuse it with Wolf Military Classic and the like.

That said, it's not match ammo, just as any M193.

My experience with it has been good, it is almost as hot as Federal M193 and is probably slightly more consistent.

 

[The DFC]

Evidently I'm the only person on this forum that doesn't regularly shoot 1moa or less -

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Wolf Gold is not steel case junk ammo. It is brass cased 5.56 M193 despite saying .223 on the box. Don’t confuse it with Wolf Military Classic and the like.

That said, it's not match ammo, just as any M193.

My experience with it has been good, it is almost as hot as Federal M193 and is probably slightly more consistent.

That shit had an ES over 200fps when I chrono’d it and shot like 2.5MOA, it’s fucking junk and no worse than the military classic as far as accuracy and velocity spread go. Federal/LC AE223 and M193 has always given me around 75fps ES and 1-1.5MOA. Not match grade, but acceptable for cheap ball ammo.

The wolf gold 75gr “match” (if you can call it that) did a little better when I ran it. It had a 200fps+ ES too which made it fall apart at distance but it would hold right on 1MOA at 100.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Evidently I'm the only person on this forum that doesn't regularly shoot 1moa or less -

It must suck to suck ?

 

[Dev L]

.223 Federal Gold Medal Match 77 SMK

Shoot that... if your gun wont shoot it well, your barrel is the problem.

 

[Lawless]

That shit had an ES over 200fps when I chrono’d it and shot like 2.5MOA, it’s fucking junk and no worse than the military classic as far as accuracy and velocity spread go. Federal/LC AE223 and M193 has always given me around 75fps ES and 1-1.5MOA. Not match grade, but acceptable for cheap ball ammo.

The wolf gold 75gr “match” (if you can call it that) did a little better when I ran it. It had a 200fps+ ES too which made it fall apart at distance but it would hold right on 1MOA at 100.

Perhaps you had a poor case.

 

[bfoosh006]

I don’t have the time to reload enough for my Precision rig, as I’m a bit particular with my loads. So in between, I want to shoot my semi-auto AR-15

I bought a good scope and rings for the AR, but am getting at best 1.5 MOA at 100 yards using Wolf Gold. Sometimes I even go to 3 MOA on my 10 shot groups. I was reading that I need to expect 2.5 MOA with Wolf Gold (which I finally used the last round and won’t buy again).

I bought the Wolf for 30 cents a round. Are there any good priced rounds out there that are < 50 cents a round that will shoot 1 MOA? Am I just asking too much from factory AR-15 ammo?

Honestly, for a 55gr FMJ bullet, Wolf Gold does quite well.. especially compared to XM193 stuff.

As for a <50 cent per rd ammo... That can be a hit or miss. There have been quite a few very accurate .223 and 5.56 rounds for reasonable prices, but they go OOS so fast, you better be ready to jump on buying some at a moments notice.

Various outstanding precision to cost rounds I have used... The outstanding Fed. 50gr Tipped Varmint, Geco .223 55gr FMJ, MEN 56gr FMJ 5.56, The recent Lapua Loaded Winc. 62gr OTM.

And given the ammo glut is over... you would be better served, paying more.

CBC 5.56 77gr is quite respectable from my barrels. ( 55 cents + shipping at SGAmmo.com )

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Perhaps you had a poor case.

I bought over 4K rounds from a store that was closing it out cheap and it was all their remaining inventory of numerous lots. It all performed about the same. For me it was brass cased ammo for less than the cost of steel cased for range ammo good enough to bang steel with carbines. It went bang and made it to the target but it was nothing to write home about.

PMC X-tac and the old school Winchester Q3131A are the only 5.56 ball ammo I’ve ever found to be what I consider to be accurate.

 

[Lawless]

Interesting for sure. I have a few cases and all of it is typically under 3” from a rest with an occasional 1.5“ or so. About all I expect from 55g ball but I don’t regularly use any AR in 5.56 for much other than close drills.

Federal is slightly faster, Winchester a good bit slower.

 

[Smoketheclay]

Criterion did some tests on various rounds, and Wolf Gold ended up grouping at 2.5-2.75 MOA.

What Kind of Accuracy Can You Expect From Your Criterion AR-15 Barrel? Ammunition Quality Makes a Difference! - Criterion Barrels

“What kind of accuracy can I expect from my Criterion AR-15 barrel?” It’s a fairly easy question to ask, but formulating an educated response can prove to be a very arduous task. While many barrel manufacturers will offer a 1 MOA guarantee with their products, very few explain what this 1 MOA...

criterionbarrels.com

 

[Lawless]

^ I think that’s a fair article and mirrors my own experience.

 

[madpat]

Does wobble between upper and lower has an influence on accuracy? On my AR10 I use electric tape to remove wobble and IMHO it helps I think.

 

[KAIFS]

As pointed out, marginal ammo will yield marginal results. Also, you try and pair your rifle/barrel with ideal bullet weight.
Even 7gr (55 & 62) will make huge (for me, at least) difference in a certain weapon, such as the case for me out of my Sig556 - with 1:10 heavy barrel it outshoots match 62gr ammunition with bulk ppu 55gr.
So, find your “sweet spot” ammo and you should be golden.