Gunsmithing Pre 64 Win action?

[lomfs24]

I have been a regular on several forums that are brand specific. But I am new here. Sorry if I am posting this in the wrong section.

I am looking at building a new project over the next few months. For a starting point I see several brands of actions float to the top of the pile consistently. In no particular order, Surgeon, Lawton, Rem 700, Savage, and even occasionally an FN SPR comes up. So far, it seems that Savage may be the easiest to work on and tweak in you don't have a complete gunsmithing shop in your den.
Now, I have always been led to believe that the Winchester Model 70 pre-64 was a strong action and a desirable one to get. Yet when I look around at all the after market stuff for custom building and accurizing rifles I see almost nothing for a pre 64 Model 70. Is there a reason for this or is it simply there are not as many around so it doesn't make sense to do production build for these actions?
The reason I ask is that I have access to a Model 70 action action/rifle that I could get for a reasonable cost. But if there is no support for it would I spend more in single piece one of a kind custom parts than it's worth? Or am I just not looking in the right spot?

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

Pre-64 Model 70s are not the latest technology for LR shooting. Due to their claw extractor you need to seat the round in the magazine before chambering the round or risk breaking it. The claw extractor was/is the main benefit when hunting dangerous game and feeding from the magazine.

You can get a 'better' action for the price of a Pre-64 Model 70. If you are starting out i suggest you buy a Remington LTR or the 26 inch version, take a class (or two) and shoot out the barrel before dropping money on a custom build.

I still hunt with my Pre-64 M70 sporter.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[lomfs24]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

Thanks Jerry. That makes sense.

Good advise too on shooting out a barrel first. I am not a new shooter nor is it my first custom build, but yet, some days I think I should just go back to an off the shelf rifle and learn a bit more before I start my next one.

I have also learned that not all gunsmiths are the end all/be all for knowledge and wisdom. Learned that the hard way.

 

[lomfs24]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

So what are the differences between all the Model 700's. There are ADL's BDL's, CDL's Sendero's, Tactical XCR etc... the list goes on. Aside from the obvious like stocks, barrels and finishes, etc... when you strip it all down is a Model 700 all the same? Of course SA and LA differences and finishes. But are they all the same block of metal or are there subtle differences that would make one better for a custom build?

 

[darrenk75b]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

The SPS 700s are a rougher-finished rifle. ADL's havea blind magazine (i.e. no hinged floorplate). BDL is a hinged floorplate. CDL is a more refined, smoother finished rifle with a BDL floorplate. However, all share the same basic action. Barrels, stocks, etc make up the other differences

 

[LRI]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Due to their claw extractor you need to seat the round in the magazine before chambering the round or risk breaking it.</span> The claw extractor was/is the main benefit when hunting dangerous game and feeding from the magazine.</span>


<span style="font-style: italic">Not true.</span> If you set the extractor up properly it is fully capable of slipping past the case rim and chambering the round.

The issue surfaces when the extractor isn't fitted properly. Dakota 76's, Dakota Scimitar actions, etc all run cases like chit through a goose.

Other advantages:

1. The ejection side raceway is blocked by the non rotating extractor. In the event of a case rupture you have a better chance of not picking gun parts out of your face.

2. Claw extractors have lots of surface contact with the case rim. Powerful when yanking a stubborn case from a chamber

3. 3 position safety positively blocks the fire control regardless of what you do with the trigger.

4. Easy to field strip and service as the whole assembly comes apart. Leave your pennies in the ash tray.

5. Integrated recoil lug means no clocking issues. Flat bottom (according to some, I don't really buy it) is less susceptible to barrel torque/torsion during the firing event.

6. Generally more fluid to operate as the extractor acts as a sort of anti bind mechanism

7. Open architecture triggers means if it takes a dip in the mud or lake you can peel it apart, wipe the crap off, assemble and continue to march. No little springies bouncing all over the floor or pins to lose.

8. The unique shroud/primary extraction design means the rear bridge is essentially closed off from your face. Again if the gun sneezes your gun parts stay with the gun and don't inbreed with your eye sockets.

9. The gas checks locations on the bolt are positioned so that they divert overpressure at a right angle in relation to the shooter.

Disadvantages:

1. Less options out there than compared to a Remmy (because it doesn't need them!)

2. More work to accurize. Setups are more involved.

3. More work to prep for bedding. As in my build thread if you care about presentation it takes some extra elbow grease to tune the bottoms up so the bedding looks nice.

4. The action screw pitch sucks. I wish like hell Winchester, F/N would just get with the program and use 1/4-28's like everyone else.

5. Triggers are easy to screw up when tuning.

FWIW Every P64 I build will chamber "over the follower" without issue. If built right they will also chamber an empty case in 99.99999999% of circumstances. The little short bugger cartridges can be a biche at times, but most everything else runs well.

Try that with a pushfeed.

It's just <span style="font-style: italic">gunsmithing</span>. Not barrel fitting and slapping an action in an inletted stock with a "custom" price tag to boot.

Honest injun.

C


Latest build on a CRF Winny

 

[Clark]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

I agree with Chad about the extractor snap over with the M70 claw extractor. It is the basic Mauser claw extractor with a little bevel. Surplus military Mausers may need a few seconds at the grinder to get them off the stripper clips only diet.

http://www.amazon.com/Bolt-Action-Rifles-Wayne-Zwoll/dp/0873496604/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
This book goes over the advantages and disadvatages of features of ~ 100 bolt actions, from the simple Rem700 across the spectrum to the complex Mauser.
Don't fool around asking questions about different bolt actions on forums, buy the book.
The Winchester pre 64 M70 is at the Mauser end of the spectrum.
Here is my schpeal:
The 1898 Mauser has:
1) flat bottomed receiver to take torque from rifling
2) controlled feed
3) claw typed extractor
4) safety on firing pin, often modified to be 2 or 3 position M70 type
5) multi stage gas filter on firing pin hole for safety
6) bolt handle is integrally forged as part of bolt body
7) safety lug below rear bridge
8) integral recoil lug
9) knife ejector in bolt lug slot
10 an inner C ring to put the tenon threads in compression

The rem 700
1) receiver made from round tubing
2) push feed
3) little wimpy extractor
4) safety on trigger
5) simple bolt
6) bolt handle tacked on with screw and solder
7) nothing for safety if bolt lugs fail.
8) recoil lug is a modified washer that is captured by the receiver and barrel
9) plunger ejector
10) No inner C ring, so the only thing holding the barrel to the receiver is the tenon threads in tension

To overcome some of these short comings, the Rem700 may be modified:
1) A flat bottomed shroud may be epoxied around the receiver for benchrest work.
3) A Sako extractor modification may be made to the bolt.
4) According to the allegations, the defendant [Remington] has known of the defect for 60 years [of Rem700 manufacture] and has more than 4,000 documented complaints of unintended discharge and has paid more than $20 million in settlements to "injured consumers."
5) Eye protection can be worn when shooting a Rem700.
6) The bolt handle can be TIG welded on the bolt body
7) An after market bolt handle can be TIG welded to the bolt body
8) The receiver and recoil lug may be drilled and pinned together.
10) The Remington factory often puts glue on the tenon threads.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

Please read C's post above, I stand corrected. He builds them for a living. Thank you for the information.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[Bryan27]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Due to their claw extractor you need to seat the round in the magazine before chambering the round or risk breaking it.</span> The claw extractor was/is the main benefit when hunting dangerous game and feeding from the magazine.</span>


<span style="font-style: italic">Not true.</span> If you set the extractor up properly it is fully capable of slipping past the case rim and chambering the round.

The issue surfaces when the extractor isn't fitted properly. Dakota 76's, Dakota Scimitar actions, etc all run cases like chit through a goose.

snip...

</div></div>

My absolute favorite rifle is my P64 modeled M70 classic. No problem hand feeding it through the top or feeding it through the well, probably the only rifle I own that has never had any issues, period. The bolt runs like it's riding on ball bearings. Down range you can't tell it from any other factory rifle shooting factory ammo, generally speaking, but when I shoot it after shooting some of my other rifles it always puts a smile on my face....

 

[six 4 sure]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

I know it's kind of stating the obvious, but Pre-64's haven't been made in nearly 50 years and there were only around 700,000 of them made. Normally they are collectible and actions alone go for $600+. FWIW in 15+ years of frequenting shop/stores I've only seen around three. The two I own were both purchased off gunbroker. They are nice actions. I'm quite happy with both of mine. However, neither is as smooth and my new SC made Mod 70.

If you like CRF and the winchester design, the FN SPR actions are a cheaper more modern version. It's more or less the same action. The nice thing about the SPR's is CDNN still has the DBM's available for $350. I wouldn't hesitate to build on one. Other more "important" projects is the only thing that's stopped me. I've got two waiting to become something.

 

[krisp]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

Go Chad, I know you'll have my Dakota feeding like butter!!!!!!

 

[lomfs24]

Re: Pre 64 Win action?

There is some great info here! Dixon, I checked out the link that you posted to a Pre64 M70 build. That was pretty cool to see that put together.

Seeing six's post though makes me thing that I might be better served in taking that P64 M70 and turning it back to original and building off a FN SPR. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for all the great info.